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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2014 2:03:06 GMT -5
And the material difference (if any) is? Are you suggesting the Father was also "brought up?" One had to "bring up" the other! Actually, one brought forth the other! The verses clearly show that just as in the NT, one was in subjection to the other! "brought up with him" clearly denotes an "equal" relationship You are absolutely right Wally. I should have seen this in the earlier verses where it is so clear! Proverbs 8 22. The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth......
Yes, this definitely suggests an equal relationship, one without a beginning.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2014 2:07:49 GMT -5
God the Father testifies that Jesus is his only begotten Son. Jesus Christ testifies that he is the Son of God. Jesus Christ testifies that the Father is the only true God. Paul, John Peter et all, all testify that God is the Father and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. None of them testify that the Holy Spirit is a person, but rather a power. NUMBERS 23:19 testifies what God isn't! Read it carefully. See if you can identify something which Jesus also testified himself to be? "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
So, from the foregoing we can see that God is NOT a man! Neither is he the son of man! Jesus was a man and declared himself to be a very specific Son of Man! God the Father did NOT lie when He called the Son, "God and LORD". The Son did NOT lie when He said he's God. Both are telling the TRUTH of who they are. The Father is God. The Son is both God and the Son of man and son of God.
Ram, you believe Jesus is ONLY the Son of God. You see only half truth of Jesus, the Son of God.
Nathan, you are twisting things now, but yes I believe Jesus was the Son of Man and the Son of God, just as God the Father revealed him to be to Peter and others. Jesus was "full of truth." The "other half" of Jesus that you claim him to be, i.e. God the Son, is merely the Devil twisting the Word of God around to read something different, as he likes to do, and has sold a pup to the great majority of Christendom who have been blinded by the Devil from the real truth of God. Please do not prophecy any more Trinitarian nonsense in your little meeting. You are the Devil's agent. I just hope that at least one member of your meeting is reading these posts so that the whole meeting may be alerted to the great deception that is going on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 14:00:51 GMT -5
The Trinity is False
I strongly recommend that those who put their trust in Trinitarian doctrine, thoroughly research the doctrine through much prayer, making oneself approved of God and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, just as the noble Bereans searched out matters of faith. The enemy of this world is The Great Deceiver and according to scripture, he deceiveth the whole world. In religious matters, (of whatever faith), he does this by mixing lies with truth, often with a lot of truth, in order that we absorb the lies. Inevitably, The Great Deceiver’s goal is to twist the word of God around to make it appear as something else, and to lead us into confusion on matters that God has made clear and simple.
Paul thus warns the Church at Corinth,
2 Corinthians 11.3 “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might bear well with him.”
Q. DID PAUL OR ANY OF THE OTHER APOSTLES PREACH “GOD THE SON?” DID THEY PREACH A TRINITY, A TRIUNE GOD OF THREE CO-EQUAL PARTS MAKING UP A SINGULAR WHOLE? WHERE DID THIS PREACHING COME FROM? WHEN DID IT START? IT IS NOT “PROGRESSIVE REVELATION” FROM WHAT JESUS PREACHED AND TAUGHT, BUT SIMPLY ANOTHER GOSPEL AND ANOTHER (FALSE) GOD!
Jesus clearly warned us that “few” would find the pathway of the Father’s Truth. He also warned us that “many” would worship a false Jesus and would never come to the knowledge of the one true God. It is Satan’s purpose to try and entice us to follow a false God and a false Jesus, ones which are different from whom God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son of God revealed to us. There is no extended revelation beyond that which is clearly stated in the Bible. It behoves us to abide in the words of Jesus and his immediate followers, not the councils of 4th century man!
Matthew 7.14 “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, And few there be that find it.”
Luke 18.8 “I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”
Matthew 7.22 “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
DON’T BE MISLED BY THE “MANY.” SEEK TO BE THE FEW WHO COME TO KNOW THE ONLY TRUE GOD. ACCORDING TO JESUS AND HIS DISCIPLES, THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER; JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD AND THE HOLY GHOST IS THE FATHER’S DIVINE SPIRIT AND POWER.
John 17.3 “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
The following verses put God the Father and Jesus the Son of God into proper context and also explains what “oneness” between the Father and Son really is, AND clearly shows us that we too can share in exactly that same “oneness!” God has much the same plan laid out for each and every one of us as he has for Jesus, his only begotten Son.
1 John 5.20 “And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
John 8.31 “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
1 Cor. 8.6 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
John 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22. And the glory which thou gavest me, I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one. 24 . I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one.....”
THE HOLY GHOST IS NOT A PERSON BUT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE INVISIBLE BUT LIVING GOD WHO IS THE FATHER. JESUS CLEARLY TELLS US THE HOLY GHOST COMES FROM THE FATHER, NOT PART OF A TRIUNE GOD OF THREE CO-EQUAL PARTS. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE GREATEST POWER AND AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WHICH PROCEEDS FROM THE FATHER. IT IS THE POWER BY WHICH ALL THINGS WERE CREATED, INCLUDING THE HUMAN JESUS CHRIST IN THE WOMB OF MARY. ADAM WAS CREATED OF THE DUST OF THE EARTH, JESUS WAS BEGOTTEN OF THE HOLY GHOST.
In the case of Ananias and Sapphira, when they lied to the Holy Ghost, they automatically lied to God the Father, for the Holy Ghost is his Spirit which proceeds from him.
John 14.26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15.26 “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”
WHEN JESUS WAS RESURRECTED HE RECEIVED HIS INHERITANCE FROM HIS FATHER AND GOD, THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY GHOST WHICH HE PROMISED DURING HIS DAYS ON EARTH TO SEND TO US. JESUS IS SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF HIS FATHER AND GOD AND IS RULING AS MIGHTY GOD AND WISE COUNSELLOR BY VIRTUE OF HIS INHERITED POSITION, NOT BECAUSE HE IS ACTUALLY GOD. CONTEXTUALLY HE IS GOD IN MANY WAYS, BUT IS NOT ACTUALLY GOD, WHO IS THE FATHER AND GOD OF JESUS. JESUS IS RUNNING THE SHOW ON BEHALF OF THE FATHER, WHO IS STILL IN OVERALL CONTROL, UNTIL JESUS DEFEATS ALL HIS ENEMIES. THEN HE RETURNS CONTROL OF THE HOLY GHOST TO HIS FATHER.
Acts 2. 29 “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption. 32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34. For David is not ascended into the heavens; but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand. 35. Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
1 Corinthians 15.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
EVERY TRUE BELIEVER IS A JOINT HEIR WITH CHRIST AND WILL SHARE IN THAT SAME POWER AND AUTHORITY. GONE WILL BE OUR FALLEN HUMAN NATURE WHICH WILL BE FULLY REPLACED BY GOD’S DIVINE NATURE AND IN THIS CONTEXT WE WILL ALL BE ONE. WE WILL ALL BE GOD BY VIRTUE OF OUR POSITION AND THE SPIRIT THAT REIGNS WITHIN US.
GOD IS NOT A TRINITY. GOD DESIRES TO BE A MILLIONITY, A BILLIONITY, AN INFINITY OF SOULS WHO WILL COME TO HIM. HE WANTS TO RAISE US UP FROM OUR FALLEN HUMAN NATURE LEVEL TO HIS DIVINE LEVEL THROUGH IMPARTING HIS SPIRIT TO US THROUGH HIS SON JESUS. SADLY, THE GREAT DECEIVER IS OUT TO THWART GOD’S PLAN OF SALVATION FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US, BY OFFERING UP TO US THROUGH ENTICING DOCTRINES, OTHER JESUS’S AND OTHER GODS WHO ARE NOT REVEALED IN THE BIBLE BUT WHO ARE READ INTO IT.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 16:28:01 GMT -5
Which website did you get your information from, Ram?
Can you their website for us. Thanks. That is not from a website Nathan. It is entirely my own composition!
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Post by Mary on Oct 28, 2014 16:36:23 GMT -5
Have you shown it to pastor and elders of the church you attend, ram?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 16:56:51 GMT -5
Have you shown it to pastor and elders of the church you attend, ram? Steady on Mary, it is just hot of the press. I compiled it 1-2 hours ago. Anyway, the pastor and some others in the church I attend are well aware of my position on these matters. Remember I am not a member of "any" organised church. I consider myself belonging to the true church of God who worship him in Spirit and Truth. I attend my current church for fellowship, friendship etc., but I have no qualms in going to other churches to evaluate what they preach.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 17:39:53 GMT -5
[font size="2"]John 20.28 “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God” [/font][/b][/i]
The above statement by that Apostle Thomas is regularly used by Trinitarians in an attempt to prove that Jesus is God. However, a study of John Chapter 14 puts Thomas’s declaration into proper context and understanding. Please read through chapter 14, which is a time shortly preceding chapter 20, whilst Jesus the Son of God was on this Earth, pre-crucifixion, paying close attention to verses 5-7! The verse quoted above is the realisation of what Jesus told his disciples in Chapter 14 and is the context in which Thomas's statement should be understood!
John Ch. 14 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. 30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 4:11:19 GMT -5
Like I told you many times in my posts, Ram... You ONLY See one side of Jesus, the son of God..... Is ONLY half picture of Jesus.... Jesus is Both the Son of God and God Almighty, the I AM that I AM, The Alpha and Omega, the First and Last.
The Father is God. The Son is God/Man. The Holy Spirit is God.
I see Jesus as he is revealed by both the Father and Son to be, as well as who all the early disciples came to see him as. Nothing more, nothing less. That is the "full" picture. I do not accept extended versions which twist Jesus into something other than who he is revealed to be. Jesus was a human being on this Earth and IS a human being in Heaven now, reigning in all his Majesty in his "glorified" human body. His relationship to the Father has always been the same; as the Word, in the flesh and in his current inherited position of Mighty God. He has always been God's servant and God's Son, not Almighty God himself. Yes he is reigning in his Father's stead, doing the job of Almighty God, but God is still at the helm as Jesus's God and Jesus's Father in the same way as God is our God and Father. Go back and read some of the things posted regarding the "I am!" Jesus represented his Father as the I am! The Father is the invisible, Almighty God, whom no man has seen and lived, except Jesus. Jesus is the public image of the Almighty God. If Jesus is the "first" then he had a beginning, which of course is correct. The Holy Spirit is clearly God the Father's Spirit which proceeds from him. Trinitarian theologians do not understand what "divinity" really is. They use their own interpretation rather than what the Bible clearly shows. As a result, inter alia, they misinterpret who Jesus actually is. It colours all their understanding. Remember what Bert has often said...."Theology begins where the simplicity of Christ ends!" So very true in many cases. Theology itself teaches us many useful things about Biblical history, social times, even many things about God and Jesus, BUT on its own it can NEVER bring us to a knowledge of the only true God. The individual must seek that out for themselves by working out their own salvation. I am reminded of what "Virgs" said a while back.........."Doth a camel have need of a raincoat in the desert?" A very wise statement in question form. Please refrain from putting an unnecessary dressing on Jesus. That hides the truth!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 4:27:47 GMT -5
Quote - "Remember what Bert has often said...."Theology begins where the simplicity of Christ ends!"
Uh... did I actually write that? Couldn't have - sounds too profound.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 4:39:23 GMT -5
Quote - " Remember what Bert has often said...."Theology begins where the simplicity of Christ ends!" Uh... did I actually write that? Couldn't have - sounds too profound.Okay, you wish you had!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 5:02:39 GMT -5
THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF THE SON OF GOD
He whom we know as the Man, Yeshua the Messiah spoke of Himself as having existed and having had a relationship with the Father God prior to coming to earth. He referred to the glory which He had with the Father before the world was and that it was the Father who sent Him into the world – John 17:5, 18.
He said, “I am not of this world “ (John 8:23; 17:14).
That necessitates pre-existence. His pre-existence before His incarnation has reference to His divine origin. John testified “He was before Me” (John 1:15); yet in the natural order of things, John was born before Yeshua.
Prior to the creation of mankind, the Glorious Person whom we know as the Son of God, existed in heaven with the Father. Yeshua said, “Before Abraham was, I AM” -i.e. “I already existed” (John 8:58)
Since the creation of man, He has made appearances on this earth where He manifested Himself as a divine Being. In the period before His incarnation, these were known as 'theophanies'. This word is taken from the Greek words, THEOS (God) and PHANEROO (appearance) – i.e. an appearance of God. Theophanies are manifestations of the Son of God prior to His incarnation where He would appear on assignment in His Father's Name, YHWH, to represent Him, in a form which was visible to man. In scripture He was referred to as “the Angel of YHWH”.
We have the account that He walked with Adam in the 'cool of the day' (Genesis 2 & 3:8); He appeared to Abraham as such also (Genesis 12;7; 17:1; 18:1); as well as to the other patriarchs (Genesis 26:2; 32:34; 35:9). He appeared to Moshe (Exodus 3:2); and led the children of Israel out of Egypt into the promised land (Exodus 13:21-22 ). He continued to guide the nation in the time of the Judges, prior to the monarchy, with various visitations to key figures at pivotal times – for Yehoshua's endorsement to conquer the land (Joshua 5:13-15); to encourage Gideon (Judges 6-7); for deliverance through Samson (Judges 13).
When spoken of as the “Angel of YHWH”, He was known as “Metatron”, to whom was given great reverence as He who taught them Torah and was the “rod” of YHWH and the High priest of the supernal, celestial Temple in the New Jerusalem (Soncino Zohar, Shemoth, Section 2, Page 159a; 169b & Bersh-h, Section 1, Page 27a) and as the “Memra” (Aramaic) or Davar (Hebrew) for the Word. This is the terminology which John gives Him in his gospel. He was also allegorized as “Wisdom” by Solomon in his proverbs (Ch.8).
THE SON WAS BROUGHT FORTH FROM THE FATHER
“YHWH possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.” (Proverbs 8:22-23) The Hebrew gives an insight into the nature of the pre-existence of the Son and the relationship which existed in eternity between the Father and the Son through the root words used in this passage of scripture.
“He possessed me” - the root here denotes something which is acquired by being purchased or redeemed and therefore brought forth as one's own possession. So here, before creation, he was brought forth as a Son.
“in the beginning” - this has the sens of that which is first, chief or foremost; and therefore carries the idea of being the first, chief or foremost manifestation of God.
“of His way” - the word 'way' is indicative of a well trodden path, and used here to mean something well established as a way of going, or as it were, the very precepts and essence of the Father's Being and character.
“I was set up” - this comes from two root meanings, 'to pour out' and 'to set up' or install. The language here gives the picture of the Son being poured forth from the Father and being established in his own identity.
So we draw out of this statement that the Father 'possessed' the Son, the beginning of His way, in that, the Son was the progenitor of all that which was contained within Himself. He became the Son after he had been brought forth, but previously he was in the Almighty as part of Himself until He “spoke” him forth as “the Word” and released Him into the cosmos and caused the abiding, engrafted Word which was part of Him and within Himself, to go forth from His Bosom and emanate externally from Himself. Thus the Son was of the same essence as the Father, poured out from Himself into another independent personality. Therefore He had within Himself all the inherent qualities of the Father in His nature and attributes. We might say that all that was in the 'genes' of the Almighty One was brought forth and projected into His sole offspring, His Son. As such, He had the capacity to be all that the Father was, as the manifestation of Him, and could say that he and the Father were one in their purpose and in their roles, except that he was the manifest expression of the Unseen One.
The life of the Father was centered in Him – He was the focal point through which the Father manifested Himself in all His attributes. When Micah prophesies of He who was to be the “ruler of Israel”, he identifies him as eternal, having been with the Father from everlasting; “Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)
“No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of he Father, he has declared Him.” John 1:18 The word 'begotten' means to 'generate' (not just physically) and was often used for teachers reproducing themselves in their disciples. It was a term used for reproducing after one's own kind. The term “I was brought forth” in Proverbs 8:25 is an equivalent term in Hebrew used for 'begotten'. The Son was generated or brought forth from the Father.
He is the unique reproduction of the Almighty - one of a kind!
THE SON WAS IN THE FATHER'S BOSOM
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.” (John 1:1-2) The only begotten of God who is in the bosom of he Father, he has declared Him.” John 1:18
The Son was in the bosom of the Father and was the Father's first act of personal manifestation of Himself, before all creation. The Father purposed to project from within Himself, from His bosom, i.e. - His inner Being, the manifestation of Himself as the Word – that which could give expression of Himself – i.e. His Person or 'soul'. And He purposed to bring this extension of Himself forth as an independent 'Person'. He was brought forth from the Father in eternity, but he did not become the only-begotten Son of the Father until His incarnation into Adam's race. He existed “in the beginning”, as One brought forth from Him and yet in the “bosom” of the Father.
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation” Colossians 1:15 He is the 'image', or tangible form of He who is not visible in this physical realm. EIKON is a likeness which is a representation of character, i.e. a precise reproduction, a duplicate created by an impression, the copy from an archetype.
He bears the imprint of the Father by being generated from the Father. So also, in every form of manifestation which He has assumed, He has always borne that same likeness to the Father. As He Himself said, “He that has seen Me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9). As well as being the exact representation of the Father, the Greek word “image” (eikon), also conveys the meaning that He is the manifestation of that which is not otherwise revealed or seen which is further emphasized by saying that He is the Firstborn, in the sense that He is the primary revelation of the Father.
PROTOKOS (Strongs 4416 from 4413) means chief, foremost or prime
He is said to be the “Firstborn of all creation”, but that does not mean that He was a created being (Rev.3:14). He was the “firstborn” of the Father – implies two things: priority to all creation and sovereignty over all creation. In the sense of priority, we see the absolute pre-existence of the Son. Since He pre-existed to all creation, He is not created in the normal sense of the word and therefore He is eternal. He came from the realm of eternity. Seeing He came forth from the Father as His chief or prime manifestation, He is also divine.
Wuest gives this translation of the verse: “Who is the derived reproduction and manifestation of deity, the invisible One, the One who has priority and sovereignty over all creation.” (Col.1:15)
This same concept is cited in Revelation 3:14 where the Son is called the “beginning (chief) of the creation of God” ARCHE (Strongs 746) meaning first in the sense of primary, highest or chief manifestation of Himself. But this does not mean that He was a created being, but that he was the primary generation of life from Himself from whom all else was brought into existence. In Hebrews 1:3, His eternal state is described as, “Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His Person .....”
The word “brightness” APANGASMA actually means effulgence and reflection, it conveys the idea of a receiving and transmitting, shining forth or to coin an appropriate word, “out-raying”. The meaning then, is that He is the 'out-raying' of the divine glory, exhibiting in Himself, the glory and majesty of the divine Being.
Weiss says, “God lets His glory issue from Himself, so that there arises thereby a 'light being' like Himself” Alford says, “the Son of God is, in this His essential majesty, the sole expression of divine light.” Therefore, we could say that the Son receives receives the reflection from the Father and transmits this effulgence from Himself of divine light.
The word used for “glory” is DOXA and refers to the expression of divine attributes collectively, the unfolded fullness of the divine perfections. It is used of various displays of divine light and splendor – e.g. Exodus 33:18-23; 24:5, 7. From being brought forth as the exact image of His Person as is cited in Colossians 1:15, the concept is taken further here to illustrate that having been brought forth, from the Almighty, He gives expression to all that He is by an effulgence, or shining forth from himself, of the divine essence.
The word used here for “image” is different from that in Colossians, it is UPOSTASIS; which means 'substance' or 'foundation' – i.e. that which underlies and supports the outward form and properties, and hence, the substantial nature and essence. The Greek word for “person” is HARAKTER from which we get our word character. This comes from the root word “to engrave” or “to inscribe', and is used to signify the impression made by an engraver from a die or a stamp. Here then, the essential being of God is conceived as setting it's distinctive stamp upon Him, so that He bears the exact impression of the divine nature.
In Colossians, the scripture is relating to the outward character and attributes being a replica of the unseen God; and here, that the basic essence of the Almighty is borne out in that outward manifestation of those characteristics and attributes. Thus the scripture here is saying that He radiates the divine essence and glory of God in His manifested presence. Not only does he have the same essence and nature as seen in his attributes and character, but he also has the same glory in His pre-existence with the Father.
Yeshua spoke of the glory which he had with the Father before the world was, in the realm of eternity, of which he divested himself when he came to earth. The Interlinear of John 17:5 reads, “And now, You glorify Me Father with Yourself, with the glory that I had before the (foundation or beginning) of the world.”
“Glorify me with Yourself” expressed oneness of Being, yet separateness in identity which they possessed in that eternal state. We might conclude it as “fill me with Yourself” in light of the following statement in verse 22, “the glory which You gave me i have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one”. In verse 24 he refers to a measure of the future glory which the believers would have in their glorified bodies. The glory which his mortal frame contained was limited compared to the glory of the eternal state. But that glory which he had known in the eternal state, he looked forward to having once again.
On the mount of transfiguration, He was seen with Moshe and Elijah enveloped in that glory which was a foreshadow of that which is to come (Luke 9:32).
In the Book of Revelation we see the Son restored to the glory which he had with the Father before the world was created, and He is seen as the visible emanation of the Father - One whom John could see, and yet He is portraying the image of the Father. When John looked to see the voice that talked with him, he saw One like the Son of Man, whose appearance was like the sun shining in its strength, and He said, “Fear not: I am the First and the Last; and who lives and was dead; and behold I am alive forever and ever, Amen.” Revelation 1:17-18
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 8:14:57 GMT -5
Whilst I agree with the general trend of the above, I have concerns that it omits the clear expressions in the OT to God's servant and also the fact that Jesus has his own will, etc., which further highlight Jesus as a distinctly separate being, person, individual from God. I have other issues, but these are not entirely incompatible with what is presented.
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tom
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Post by tom on Oct 30, 2014 21:23:36 GMT -5
Nathan my apologies- I am such a simple person but I look at it like this. This question you are debating has been argued for 00's of years. You have told us that it is so important that we understand the God/Jesus issue. If it is so important would it not have been stated very clearly and simply for all to understand in the NT. Obviously it wasnt (for reasons only known to God).I dont think you can argue something thats not clear.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 2:02:32 GMT -5
RAM and Nathan - desist from copy and paste. Repeat after me: "two paragraphs max."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 3:06:24 GMT -5
RAM and Nathan - desist from copy and paste. Repeat after me: "two paragraphs max." Robert my dear fellow, I do apologise. However, I only copy and paste articles for Nathan to read in answer to some of his questions. Much of what he presents along with the volume of it, requires far more than two paragraphs max.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 3:12:56 GMT -5
Ram wrote “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of he Father, he has declared Him.” John 1:18 The word 'begotten' means to 'generate' (not just physically) and was often used for teachers reproducing themselves in their disciples. It was a term used for reproducing after one's own kind. The term “I was brought forth” in Proverbs 8:25 is an equivalent term in Hebrew used for 'begotten'. The Son was generated or brought forth from the Father. He is the unique reproduction of the Almighty - one of a kind! Let me ask you this ram, you wrote, "NO man has seen God at any time." Then which Lord and God did Abraham and Sarah meet, and ate with them in Genesis chapters 17-19?God the Father appears through his servant who is his express image and representative. God is speaking through his servant. The servant can do nothing but by the Father. The invisible God speaks through his servant. In the NT Jesus clearly tells us that the words he speaks are not his but the Father's words (sorry, I am in a rush and don't have the ref.) The servant of God in the OT is revealed as Jesus Christ the Son of God in the NT. Think of it like the ambassador of the UK speaking on behalf of the UK to another country. The ambassador's speech is often referred to as The UK speaking, or sometimes the Queen speaking. It is the UK or Queen speaking through representation. This is very similar to Jesus speaking on behalf of God. You must understand matters from the revealed identity of Jesus and the Father in the New Testament. One very important thing you must understand and take into account is that when God brought forth his servant in spiritual form from himself as a separate being and identity, fully obedient and subservient to himself, it was to create the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, through his servant and FOR his servant. This is from beginning to end. The creation of the heavens and the earth were FOR Jesus! Sorry I can't remember the ref at the mo. It's in the NT though, one of the Epistles? In the OT the servant is hidden in the Father's bosom and finally revealed in the NT as the only begotten Son of God. The creation of the heavens and the earth is like a Father giving a gift to his Son. Of course the Father knew things would go wrong and we know the rest of the story.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Oct 31, 2014 4:46:03 GMT -5
A few other quick points which underline the triune nature of our God.
Matthew 28:19...And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
It is inconceivable that "all authority in heaven and on earth" would be given to someone who was not God or who was outside of the Godhead - simply impossible. It is also inconceivable (given the ten commandments) that Jesus would be worshiped if he was not God.
If Jesus had only understood his Father to be God he would have simply said "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of God the Father, teaching them to observe..."
But no he didn't. As I'm mentioned previously the apostles would have been totally familiar with the OT expression "The name of the Lord" ie the name of Jehovah or Yahweh.
Jesus took it and expanded it to "the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit". If Jesus was not God, this would have been sheer blasphemy on Jesus' part. The "name of the Lord" remains ONE name, yet now God is known as Father, Son and Holy Spirit - distinct, personal and equal.
An interesting affirmation of Christ's deity is also found in the message that he told his disciples to give to the owners of the colt on which he would ride into Jerusalem.
When the owners asked the disciples what they were doing loosing the colt, they replied as Jesus had instructed them "Its owner needs it". The contrast between the human owners and Jesus is clear in the Greek. At the end of his ministry, our Lord made it clear that he is the divine Owner of all things. He is the sovereign God the creator. He is Lord of all.
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Post by snow on Oct 31, 2014 11:50:49 GMT -5
When ever people start talking about the triune God I can't help but picture Cerberus. Three heads but all of them dog. Triune. 3 heads but all of them god. One supposedly guards the gates to hell and the other the gates to heaven. Interesting parallels there.
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Post by snow on Oct 31, 2014 11:59:44 GMT -5
When ever people start talking about the triune God I can't help but picture Cerberus. Three heads but all of them dog. Triune. 3 heads but all of them god. One supposedly guards the gates to hell and the other the gates to heaven. Interesting parallels there. I was thinking of human identical Triplets... ALL three have exact image but ALL three have their own personality, character, feelings, mind, ect... I have read that the identical twins know each other thoughts, thinking! like they go out and buy the identical gifts, clothes, etc..So do you believe God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created at the same time, identically. Who created them? I was not aware that the Holy Spirit or God the Father had bodies. In the analogy of Cerberus there are three heads one body. In the case of the triune, there are 3 heads, but only Jesus had the body. Isn't that correct? One guards hell and one guards heaven. Interesting.
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Post by snow on Oct 31, 2014 12:10:49 GMT -5
So do you believe God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created at the same time, identically. Who created them? I don't know the answer to your question... That one has to wait when we get to heaven. They will tell us the answer where they came from, or who created them, or were they created at the same time. According to John 1:1-3 It seems they (Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit) were together at the same time in the beginning.John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 17:1-5 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
So what exactly was 'the beginning'? Was it the big bang? Or was it when the universe cooled enough to allow life forms?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 13:10:12 GMT -5
God the Father appears through his servant who is his express image and representative. God is speaking through his servant. The servant can do nothing but by the Father. The invisible God speaks through his servant. In the NT Jesus clearly tells us that the words he speaks are not his but the Father's words (sorry, I am in a rush and don't have the ref.) The servant of God in the OT is revealed as Jesus Christ the Son of God in the NT. Think of it like the ambassador of the UK speaking on behalf of the UK to another country. The ambassador's speech is often referred to as The UK speaking, or sometimes the Queen speaking. It is the UK or Queen speaking through representation. This is very similar to Jesus speaking on behalf of God. You must understand matters from the revealed identity of Jesus and the Father in the New Testament. One very important thing you must understand and take into account is that when God brought forth his servant in spiritual form from himself as a separate being and identity, fully obedient and subservient to himself, it was to create the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, through his servant and FOR his servant. This is from beginning to end. The creation of the heavens and the earth were FOR Jesus! Sorry I can't remember the ref at the mo. It's in the NT though, one of the Epistles? In the OT the servant is hidden in the Father's bosom and finally revealed in the NT as the only begotten Son of God. The creation of the heavens and the earth is like a Father giving a gift to his Son. Of course the Father knew things would go wrong and we know the rest of the story. Ram, you did NOT answer my question... Let me repeat it again, it says in John gospel that"NO man has seen God at any time." Then which Lord/God appeared to Abraham and Sarah, and they SAW His human face, and ate food with them in Genesis chapters 17-19? Thanks, in advance.I DID answer your question but you still don't understand it. God appeared and spoke through his servant in the OT. The Apostle John is right. No man has seen God at any time (except the Son of God/his servant). God shared his glory "only" with his servant. This servant came to the Earth as Jesus Christ, revealed as the Son of God. You keep ignoring the first half sentence of Revelation despite it being repeatedly pointed out to you. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him..." This is how it is now, how it was while Christ was on the Earth, and how it was from the beginning. God speaks through his servant (OT); Son of God (NT). When God manifested himself in the OT to human beings/prophets, it was through his servant, NOT actually himself in person. Very much like how a country's ambassador represents a country. The ambassador is the country speaking.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 13:25:07 GMT -5
A few other quick points which underline the triune nature of our God. Matthew 28:19...And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” It is inconceivable that "all authority in heaven and on earth" would be given to someone who was not God or who was outside of the Godhead - simply impossible. It is also inconceivable (given the ten commandments) that Jesus would be worshiped if he was not God. It is far more inconceivable that God would be an heir to all he has and would need to be given all power in heaven and on earth. Surely God would already be in possession of this?
If Jesus had only understood his Father to be God he would have simply said "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of God the Father, teaching them to observe..." But no he didn't. As I'm mentioned previously the apostles would have been totally familiar with the OT expression "The name of the Lord" ie the name of Jehovah or Yahweh. All that Jesus said and did was in the name of the Father. Jesus himself said he could do nothing except the Father empowered him. He said the same about his own words. They were not his but were the Father's words. Jesus represented the Father. He did NOT come in his own name, but in the name of the Father. He is the express image of the Father. There are many references in the NT which cannot be understood to suggest anything else, than Jesus recognised his Father as his God, and the only true God at that.
Jesus took it and expanded it to "the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit". If Jesus was not God, this would have been sheer blasphemy on Jesus' part. The "name of the Lord" remains ONE name, yet now God is known as Father, Son and Holy Spirit - distinct, personal and equal. Jesus came in the NAME OF THE FATHER, by the power of the Father's own Spirit, the Holy Ghost. What's so difficult about that? He represented the Father, NOT a triune God!
An interesting affirmation of Christ's deity is also found in the message that he told his disciples to give to the owners of the colt on which he would ride into Jerusalem. When the owners asked the disciples what they were doing loosing the colt, they replied as Jesus had instructed them "Its owner needs it". The contrast between the human owners and Jesus is clear in the Greek. At the end of his ministry, our Lord made it clear that he is the divine Owner of all things. He is the sovereign God the creator. He is Lord of all.Please quote the references you have in mind and please give your contextual understanding at the same time. I am not going to make guesses at what you are trying to convey.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 13:32:22 GMT -5
I DID answer your question but you still don't understand it. God appeared and spoke through his servant in the OT. The Apostle John is right. No man has seen God at any time (except the Son of God/his servant). God shared his glory "only" with his servant. This servant came to the Earth as Jesus Christ, revealed as the Son of God. You keep ignoring the first half sentence of Revelation despite it being repeatedly pointed out to you. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him..." This is how it is now, how it was while Christ was on the Earth, and how it was from the beginning. God speaks through his servant (OT); Son of God (NT). When God manifested himself in the OT to human beings/prophets, it was through his servant, NOT actually himself in person. Very much like how a country's ambassador represents a country. The ambassador is the country speaking. You still don't get it either, ram. Jesus Christ is Almighty God, the Father is God of the most high.... You need to read the whole book of Revelation Jesus Christ claimed He is the Almighty God. Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."It's not me that is not getting it Nathan, it is you who does not understand what you are reading. You keep quoting the same verses over and over again and do not understand the context of these verses against the remainder of Revelations or the position Jesus now holds. Jesus has received his inheritance from his God and Father. He is reigning with all Majesty on his throne at the right hand of God, having received all power and authority in heaven and Earth (the Father excepted). I have presented chapter and verses in previous threads but your thinking is blinkered to what you want to believe, rather than accept scripture. Jesus received (had handed down) the Revelation from God (the Father). He is occupying the position of Almighty God until he brings all his enemies under his feet and then he hands back that power and authority to his God and Father. Jesus is not actually the Almighty God, but is acting in that capacity by virtue of his inheritance. He clearly states repeatedly in Revelations that the Father IS HIS GOD still!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 9:42:02 GMT -5
It's not me that is not getting it Nathan, it is you who does not understand what you are reading. You keep quoting the same verses over and over again and do not understand the context of these verses against the remainder of Revelations or the position Jesus now holds. Jesus has received his inheritance from his God and Father. He is reigning with all Majesty on his throne at the right hand of God, having received all power and authority in heaven and Earth (the Father excepted). I have presented chapter and verses in previous threads but your thinking is blinkered to what you want to believe, rather than accept scripture. Jesus received (had handed down) the Revelation from God (the Father). He is occupying the position of Almighty God until he brings all his enemies under his feet and then he hands back that power and authority to his God and Father. Jesus is not actually the Almighty God, but is acting in that capacity by virtue of his inheritance. He clearly states repeatedly in Revelations that the Father IS HIS GOD still! Ram, the verses I showed you are right in front of you. There is no explanation or Interpretation need it. It's plainly and Clearly stated Jesus is the Almighty God. Jesus is NOT occupying the position Almighty God. HE has always been the Almighty God from eternity. Jesus said in Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Rev. 11:16-17 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and Worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
Rev. 21:6,7 He that sat on the throne said unto me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be MY Son.
Nathan, you continually fail to realise that when Jesus speaks, he receives the words from his God and Father and speaks on behalf of his God and Father. Jesus is, was, always has been and always will be, his God and Father's mouthpiece. Here it is plain as day. John 12 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. Our Heavenly Father and God speaks to us through his only begotten Son Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 12:21:53 GMT -5
Ram, Jesus is the WORD of God and God/the Son himself. John 1:1-3
That is your interpretation or belief, but it is wrong, very wrong. A proper study of the Apostle John's writings puts such references into proper context as he clearly shows in unambiguous references that the only true God is the Father; that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that the Holy Ghost is God the Father's Spirit which proceeds from him. John clearly identifies from the words of Jesus that the Father and God of Jesus is also our Father and God. The same relationship if we believe with all our hearts that Jesus is the Son of God (only..not God the Son). Jesus is the only begotten Son of God but the rest of us are sons and daughters through adoption and are joint-heirs with Jesus. No amount of wishful thinking will change that! You have been shown time and again that your interpretations of various scriptures are wrong. You have yet to engage or challenge me even once on anything that I have presented in support of my beliefs. Instead you ignore their significance and keep repeating the same old stuff taken way out of context.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
All things are of God, through Jesus Christ, by the power of God's divine Spirit. It's that easy. The Father empowers the Son to do all things in the Father's name. There is no co-equality about it. The word/Son is subservient and obedient to the Father's will throughout.
John 1:14 and 10
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[b]As above. Also the Word was made "flesh," i.e. HUMAN (only) The Son of God was a human being, begotten of God's Spirit, the Holy Ghost as opposed to Adam who was created of the dust of the Earth. Just two ways of producing the same human vessel. Into his only begotten Son he poured his Spirit (DIVINE POWER) without measure.This is the same power that God pours into all who seek him through his Son Jesus.
[/b] ~~ Jesus called His heavenly Father on the Cross of Calvary, "My God, My God, why has thou forshaken me?" God the Father called the Son, "God and Lord/Yahweh" creator of the heavens and earth in Hebrews 1:8-12 [font color="3119e6"]I don't know how many times I have to address this portion of scripture but it seems you just cannot understand the context of these verses. Jesus has been resurrected by the Father and is receiving his "inheritance" from the Father. He was heir to this position. It was the Father's promise to his Son. Jesus had never before at any time been in this position. The Father, himself excepted, "gave" all power and authority in heaven and earth to his only begotten Son Jesus. Have you any idea what this means? Do you have any concept of this? Jesus is ruling now at the right hand of God over all creation. By virtue of his position he is reigning as Mighty God. He could hardly be described as anything else, but nevertheless he IS NOT God! That is the Father. Once Jesus defeats all his enemies he returns that power and authority to his Heavenly Father who is both his God and Father as well as our God and Father. Jesus will remain on his throne for ever and ever alongside every true believer who are all joint-heirs with Jesus's position. Jesus will have the pre-eminence like a husband, and the rest of us will be ruling as his bride. It's all there in the Bible.
The Father in directing Jesus to his throne calls him "O God," by virtue of the position he is about to occupy, NOT because Jesus is actually the Lord God Almighty. We too will be God when we receive crowns of righteousness and are enthroned alongside Jesus.
Remember The Revelation of Jesus Christ is NOT JESUS's revelation. He is merely revealing it on behalf of his God and Father as is clear from the first half sentence of that book which clearly states God GAVE it to Jesus. Jesus is merely the Father's mouthpiece speaking on behalf of the Father. This has always been the case and always will be. Jesus explains this in my earlier post. Please read and think. Please try and consider the context and background for every reference you haul out to try and prove your cause!
[/b][/font][/font] [/font][/quote]
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 12:53:43 GMT -5
Nathan, I presented you with these verses you quoted either earlier in this thread or in one of the others. In both the OT and NT Jesus is the "manifestation" of God the Father. God is invisible but Jesus is his express image and appears on behalf of God as his servant and later is revealed as his Son. In either case Jesus speaks all that God commanded him to do. He always speaks on behalf of the Father (God). Jesus was hidden in the OT but revealed in the NT. The NT reveals to us exactly who Jesus is. We have to see Jesus in the OT through his revealed being in the NT.
John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
Jesus is the only person to have seen God. In the OT God was manifested through Jesus. In the NT God appeared in the flesh through his only begotten Son Jesus. Jesus is the agency between God and man.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 13:12:23 GMT -5
Nathan there is not ONE solitary reference in the New Testament used by theologians to try and prove that Jesus IS God which has not been taken out of context. You just are not listening. I have addressed very adequately from scripture the true context of the verses you keep repeating. I am not going to answer any more of your repeated reference pulling because you either cannot or will not see the context of these references. Not once have you challenged any of my viewpoints through counter explanation, all the time jumping to repeating a list of already addressed references. It is tiring, very, very tiring, even for me. If you wish to continue this dialogue, pick anything that I have said and give me a proper explanation why you think it is wrong, instead of hurling oft repeated verses which have been adequately overturned.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 17:21:31 GMT -5
Nathan there is not ONE solitary reference in the New Testament used by theologians to try and prove that Jesus IS God which has not been taken out of context. You just are not listening. I have addressed very adequately from scripture the true context of the verses you keep repeating. I am not going to answer any more of your repeated reference pulling because you either cannot or will not see the context of these references. Not once have you challenged any of my viewpoints through counter explanation, all the time jumping to repeating a list of already addressed references. It is tiring, very, very tiring, even for me. If you wish to continue this dialogue, pick anything that I have said and give me a proper explanation why you think it is wrong, instead of hurling oft repeated verses which have been adequately overturned. Ram - with respect Nathan is not the only one that believes that Jesus is God (the Son). It is simply not a debated point among Christians - there are a few sects (including Oneness Pentecostal) that believe it (and in Oneness Pentecostal the Father, Son or HS the One Spirit can manifest itself as Father, Son, HS or other ways). 99.99% of Christians believe that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The belief that Jesus was/is God was a core belief in the early church (Paul and others clearly believed it and Jesus affirmed it - see my post on Matthew 28 and others) and it was ultimately settled in written statements. While much has been written since on Trinitarian theology the principle was not debated at all in the early church - it was simply accepted that Jesus was God and he was worshipped as such. I haven't read all the posts in detail but as I understand you accept that Jesus is the Son of God and you worship him as your Saviour and King which is all you need to do. You acknowledge his complete deity. We have common ground. Ross, one of my opening addresses to Nathan was that I accepted that the majority of "Christians" accepted or believed in the Trinity (however, many don't have any real idea what the Trinity doctrine is). I very much disagree that Paul and the other Apostles believed that Jesus was God and have shown this time and again. I think if you properly study matters you will find there are a fair number of Christians who do not accept that Jesus is God. I am surprised at the number that I am coming across, even within the mainstream churches. Of course, the mainstream doctrine is very much Trinitarian based but this is seldom properly explained to their fellowships. I would say that at least 10% of Christians categorically do not accept that Jesus is God and many who actually accept the Trinity really don't know what the Trinity doctrine actually is. Anyway, as stated in earlier posts, I know that I am in the minority and having studied the politics of the post Apostle age councils, I am very happy to state that I have no confidence in them ever having truly represented Jesus Christ and the Apostles. I certainly worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God. He is my Saviour and King. I also recognise his Divinity as having come from God and represented God, but there again divinity is offered to all who turn to God through Jesus Christ by being born again of the Father's divine spirit. That is Biblical divinity, not theological divinity. The deity question seems to be something the theologians have dreamed up. As far as I am concerned, God wants you and me to be part of his eternal deity. It is not limited to Father and Son, but is open to all who will be one with them. It is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Father that binds us as one by being in and through us all. Jesus made it clear that most of Christendom would be rejected because he never knew them (they did not seek to know the only true God) and that there would be few that would come to that knowledge. The beliefs of the masses arouse suspicion within me rather than attraction, with good cause. Other than that I have no doubt we have much common ground.
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