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Post by déjà vu on Oct 10, 2014 21:41:30 GMT -5
It has been brought to my attention that F&W hardly ever use the phrase Gift of salvation but mostly the Gift of CHRIST does this mean that salvation is not considered a gift ?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 21:54:33 GMT -5
I find people use "gift of salvation" just as freely as any other relevant and scriptural term.
But, having said that... Lots of churches believe you should pay for salvation. They happily accept credit cards - Diners, Amex, Master, Visa. Check is fine. Cash is even better.
It's not for personal profit, mind you - it's for:
the temple built with hands some thought was done away with the priesthood some thought was done away with it's for superannuation's, pension, salary and bonuses like Billy Graham gets it's to house preachers who won't be billeted by their parishioners. it's for the gardened estates like the pope lives in. it's for ministers cars when their parishioners won't loan their own. it's for chaplains entertainment and holiday expenses. etc, depressing etc..
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Post by bubbles on Oct 10, 2014 23:09:28 GMT -5
It has been brought to my attention that F&W hardly ever use the phrase Gift of salvation but mostly the Gift of CHRIST does this mean that salvation is not considered a gift ? Salvation is the gift which comes from Christ. Some gifts are given from the holy spirit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 0:05:23 GMT -5
It has been brought to my attention that F&W hardly ever use the phrase Gift of salvation but mostly the Gift of CHRIST does this mean that salvation is not considered a gift ? is Christ your salvation?
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Post by fred on Oct 11, 2014 1:55:03 GMT -5
It has been brought to my attention that F&W hardly ever use the phrase Gift of salvation but mostly the Gift of CHRIST does this mean that salvation is not considered a gift ? is Christ your salvation? A good question is, what do you understand by salvation?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 20:33:04 GMT -5
is Christ your salvation? A good question is, what do you understand by salvation? that it is a gift from God to those who do His will and follow His Son our saviour
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 12, 2014 5:51:33 GMT -5
I find people use "gift of salvation" just as freely as any other relevant and scriptural term. But, having said that... Lots of churches believe you should pay for salvation. They happily accept credit cards - Diners, Amex, Master, Visa. Check is fine. Cash is even better. It's not for personal profit, mind you - it's for: the temple built with hands some thought was done away with the priesthood some thought was done away with it's for superannuation's, pension, salary and bonuses like Billy Graham gets it's to house preachers who won't be billeted by their parishioners. it's for the gardened estates like the pope lives in. it's for ministers cars when their parishioners won't loan their own. it's for chaplains entertainment and holiday expenses. etc, depressing etc.. Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Oct 12, 2014 6:05:43 GMT -5
A verse comes to mind from Romans 10:
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Our prayers go out to the Christians in Iraq at the moment who are being persecuted by ISIS. Though their lives may be taken, they have the gift of salvation from God that no-one can take away.
In the context of the meetings, it took us many years to understand God's grace - it was only ever preached in a dictionary defintion sense (unmerited favour) but I never heard the words that God's grace to us is simply Christ Jesus our Lord - his death and his resurrection - and all that He is.
At one of the last conventions we attended we heard a worker from Queensland describe Ephesians 2: 8-9 as Satan's favourite verses. We nearly fell off our seats.
When a person truly understands the gift of grace of Jesus they put their faith 100% in Him. For folk in the meetings who are truly exclusive and who put a significant amount of their faith in the ministry I don't think that they can really understand Christ's gift of grace. If they did they would immediately put their faith totally in Christ and desire to be His disciple alone.
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Post by déjà vu on Oct 12, 2014 10:01:30 GMT -5
I remember one of the preachers I believe it was Ch Swindoll saying that it took him 20 years of preaching until he finally understood the true meaning of Grace .
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Post by fred on Oct 12, 2014 17:12:18 GMT -5
I would like now to refine my question. Some have noted how or perhaps why salvation comes, but I am interested in hearing from others about what salvation brings.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 0:00:16 GMT -5
I would like now to refine my question. Some have noted how or perhaps why salvation comes, but I am interested in hearing from others about what salvation brings. a change of life
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 14:16:19 GMT -5
A good question is, what do you understand by salvation? that it is a gift from God to those who do His will and follow His Son our saviour If there are conditions placed upon it, then it's not really a gift... All you really have to do is accept it in faith!
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Post by faune on Oct 15, 2014 11:33:21 GMT -5
If there are conditions placed upon it, then it's not really a gift... All you really have to do is accept it in faith!
But isn't even that, a condition? Snow ~ That's a very good question? However, I believe I found a good answer to your question below?
www.gotquestions.org/faith-work.html
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Post by faune on Oct 15, 2014 13:53:46 GMT -5
so faune, there is a condition and if God decides that he won't give the gift of faith, the person who does not accept Jesus Christ is not saved? It appears that there are some among us that God has decided to damn forever. The one condition for salvation is faith in Jesus Christ. However, the gift of faith is from God and not something we can produce on our own. So those who do not have faith in Jesus Christ are not saved. And, the reason they are not saved is because they never received the gift of faith from God in the first place. There you go. Some were born damned by this so called loving God. Interesting, because I just happen to be one of the ones he damned. Snow ~ I can see how you would come to that conclusion, because "predestination" does seem to be taught within the Bible and even by Jesus and the apostles. It's also a common Christian belief that people are drawn to faith in Christ and it's not necessarily something they would choose on their own. This is especially true in the Calvinistic circles. Therefore, your logic above seems sound to me, too.
www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html
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Post by faune on Oct 15, 2014 19:17:40 GMT -5
Faith cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the word of God. That isn't how it was worded. It said it was a Gift from God that could not be produced by oneself. Nothing about hearing the word of God. I have heard many different 'words of god' from many different religions worldwide and I don't believe any of them. It's not that I don't want to Nathan, it's because it's simply not possible for me to do so. I have no faith they are right. None. Now if faith is a gift from God, he has chosen to not give me that gift and by doing that he has decided that I will have no salvation. It's pretty simple actually. That is what Christianity says. You must accept Jesus to be saved. That requires faith. Faith is a gift from God that cannot be attained in any other way. I do not have faith, therefore God has decided to withhold the gift of faith and because of that, I am not saved. Snow ~ I was going to quote the same verse in answer to your question that Nathan did above. Regardless what the apologist said in those articles I quoted, I feel faith is something that develops from "hearing the Word of God" and becoming acquainted with it, as it says in Romans 10:17. Just speaking for myself, there does seem to be a drawing to God's Word before there is the evidence of "hearing" it to our hearts. However, the more acquainted you become with the teachings of Jesus, it seemingly becomes imprinted upon our hearts and minds and transforming to our lives. Like any nourishing food, you don't get the benefit unless you partake of it personally. Therefore, I believe it is in the study and application of God's Word to our lives that faith is developed within us; however, there first has to be the willing exposure to the Word itself.
biblehub.com/romans/10-17.htm
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Post by faune on Oct 15, 2014 19:44:03 GMT -5
Faith cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the word of God. That isn't how it was worded. It said it was a Gift from God that could not be produced by oneself. Nothing about hearing the word of God. I have heard many different 'words of god' from many different religions worldwide and I don't believe any of them. It's not that I don't want to Nathan, it's because it's simply not possible for me to do so. I have no faith they are right. None. Now if faith is a gift from God, he has chosen to not give me that gift and by doing that he has decided that I will have no salvation. It's pretty simple actually. That is what Christianity says. You must accept Jesus to be saved. That requires faith. Faith is a gift from God that cannot be attained in any other way. I do not have faith, therefore God has decided to withhold the gift of faith and because of that, I am not saved. Snow ~ I was just going to post the same verse that Nathan quoted above and he beat me to it, from Romans 10:17. Regardless what the apologist said about faith being a gift from God, I believe faith is cultivated from hearing and believing God's Word to our own heart. It's also the result of reading and studying the Word for ourselves and letting it sink into our hearts. We still make the final choice regarding belief, as to receiving or rejecting God's Word regarding salvation through Jesus and his sacrifice on the Cross.
Also, we are not just talking about a historical Jesus who lived and walked this earth, but a risen Christ and redeemer of mankind. Without belief in the resurrection story, it would be hard to accept his salvation message, too? Perhaps that's one reason why I have also endeavored a search, not only into the historical records regarding Jesus' existence, but also tangible proof that the Bible account of his resurrection has evidence to back it up outside of the gospel accounts. I have no doubt myself concerning the historical Jesus of Nazareth who existed and walked this earth back during the first century from my own research. I've been reviewing a lot of the teachings of the Early Church Fathers and the Gnostic groups to see what they actually believed after Jesus' death to be true. My study, to date, has found a difference of opinion between the Gnostics and the records of the Early Church Fathers regarding how they viewed Jesus. However, the resurrection account seems to be believed by both groups, which I find encouraging, to say the least.
Although I have been a Christian for about 50 years, I have never attempted to investigate the history behind Jesus' claims within the gospel accounts until recently. In all honestly, I feel we cannot possess true faith until we have proven to ourselves that our belief is grounded in real truth and not in fiction. Presently, I'm still on a quest for answers to my own questions along these lines that await meaningful answers. You might call it a search for proof to back up my own personal faith in a living God and redeemer of mankind. In fact, DMG asked me in the past regarding the reason for my research, sensing that I was trying to prove something to myself. I have to admit, she was right in her analysis and I'm still on that journey for answers.
biblehub.com/romans/10-17.htm
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 20:49:49 GMT -5
Faith cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the word of God. That isn't how it was worded. It said it was a Gift from God that could not be produced by oneself. Nothing about hearing the word of God. I have heard many different 'words of god' from many different religions worldwide and I don't believe any of them. It's not that I don't want to Nathan, it's because it's simply not possible for me to do so. I have no faith they are right. None. Now if faith is a gift from God, he has chosen to not give me that gift and by doing that he has decided that I will have no salvation. It's pretty simple actually. That is what Christianity says. You must accept Jesus to be saved. That requires faith. Faith is a gift from God that cannot be attained in any other way. I do not have faith, therefore God has decided to withhold the gift of faith and because of that, I am not saved. are you talking about this verse? Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: i don't think we are understanding this verse correctly, because Jesus says the following... Mar_11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. he states it here as if anyone could have it... Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. and here it says God hath dealt to EVERY man faith...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 20:29:23 GMT -5
Thanks, for asking.... Here's my understanding. God's will and plan for every human being to be SAVED but NOT everyone wants to be SAVED because of FREEWILL. Jesus said MANY are called but only few have taken heed the call of Salvation.
Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter ye in at the strait gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." God has enemies... Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels try to hinder people from believing and following and serving Him as God.
So why wouldn't everyone want to be saved? some don't like the idea of serving God, there is a saying i hope i am getting it right... "better to reign in hell than serve in heaven"...
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Post by matisse on Oct 17, 2014 6:06:49 GMT -5
some don't like the idea of serving God, there is a saying i hope i am getting it right... "better to reign in hell than serve in heaven"... I have a hard time believing anyone would think that. Now I don't have a hard time believing i t might be something a 'believer' would say to explain why other people don't serve God. However, this isn't the case for me. I don't want to reign anywhere. I simply do not have any way of believing in the concept of a God, at least not one with the credentials of many of the worlds religions. It makes no sense to me and I can't change that. I simply do not believe there is anything to be 'saved' from. In my world the concept of heaven or hell makes no sense whatsoever. I think this is key, snow! In an exclusive (we're right, everyone else is wrong) belief system, one needs pat "explanations" for why others do not believe.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2014 10:27:40 GMT -5
some don't like the idea of serving God, there is a saying i hope i am getting it right... "better to reign in hell than serve in heaven"... I have a hard time believing anyone would think that. Now I don't have a hard time believing it might be something a 'believer' would say to explain why other people don't serve God. However, this isn't the case for me. I don't want to reign anywhere. I simply do not have any way of believing in the concept of a God, at least not one with the credentials of many of the worlds religions. It makes no sense to me and I can't change that. I simply do not believe there is anything to be 'saved' from. In my world the concept of heaven or hell makes no sense whatsoever. after a little research its from john milton in "paradise lost"
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Post by matisse on Oct 17, 2014 13:04:19 GMT -5
I have a hard time believing anyone would think that. Now I don't have a hard time believing it might be something a 'believer' would say to explain why other people don't serve God. However, this isn't the case for me. I don't want to reign anywhere. I simply do not have any way of believing in the concept of a God, at least not one with the credentials of many of the worlds religions. It makes no sense to me and I can't change that. I simply do not believe there is anything to be 'saved' from. In my world the concept of heaven or hell makes no sense whatsoever. Many are the children of Satan, the fallen angels seeds Unholy Union between them and with human women of this earth... Just like Judas Iscariot. Jesus said, " One of you is the devil/Children." They don't want to call God their Father because Satan is theirs father.
Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, God hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 10-13 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Hell/eternal darkness dwelling is created to put where Satan, 1/3 of the fallen angels and their children, unbelievers, the fearful, the wicked/murders, and sinners throughout Eternity.
New Heaven and New Earth is created for God's children on planet earth and beings, who LOVE God from other planets/Venus and so on as a dwelling place for eternity.
Wow! "Child of Satan".....and, whoa! Nathan! what did you just suggest about my mother???! She is a very faithful professing woman...or so I thought! ;-) Seriously...."God" is not my father and neither is "Satan." My father passed away recently. He was a wonderful man.
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Post by matisse on Oct 17, 2014 13:50:51 GMT -5
Wow! "Child of Satan".....and, whoa! Nathan! what did you just suggest about my mother???! She is a very faithful professing woman...or so I thought! ;-) Seriously...."God" is not my father and neither is "Satan." My father passed away recently. He was a wonderful man. You and I either are God's children or NOT. Jesus said, " He that is NOT gather with me is scattered/against me." Everyone of us must make a stand either we are with God or NOT. There is NO neutral ground, sitting on the fence, WE must make Jesus as the Savior in our hearts or Satan will take his/Jesus place with or without your approval/permission. You and I must take our pick between God or Satan. If you and I are undecided Satan will pick it for us, he will be our father and god. That is your belief, Nathan. It is not mine.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 17, 2014 14:16:06 GMT -5
Wow! "Child of Satan".....and, whoa! Nathan! what did you just suggest about my mother???! She is a very faithful professing woman...or so I thought! ;-) Seriously...."God" is not my father and neither is "Satan." My father passed away recently. He was a wonderful man. You and I either are God's children or NOT. Jesus said, " He that is NOT gather with me is scattered/against me." Everyone of us must make a stand either we are with God or NOT. There is NO neutral ground, sitting on the fence, WE must make Jesus as the Savior in our hearts or Satan will take his/Jesus place with or without your approval/permission. You and I must take our pick between God or Satan. If you and I are undecided Satan will pick it for us, he will be our father and god. No, Nathan. We DO NOT have to decide between two different mythical concepts, God or Satan.
Besides, those two biblical concepts are just the opposites of the same coin.
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Post by matisse on Oct 17, 2014 14:16:44 GMT -5
That is your belief, Nathan. It is not mine. Thanks, it is NOT mine belief only but most of followers of Jesus.That others share your belief doesn't make it true, or any more believable to me!
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Post by matisse on Oct 17, 2014 14:40:31 GMT -5
That others share your belief doesn't make it true, or any more believable to me! You asked me the question so I just replied your post to me .... To Accept the gift of Salvation through believing in Jesus or NOT... it's your choice. For myself I have accepted and believed in God's gift of Salvation in Jesus as My Lord God Savior....and I was confirming that based on my stated point of view, you would expect that my mother concieved me with "input" from "Satan".
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Post by fixit on Oct 17, 2014 15:56:07 GMT -5
hmm I guess I now know why the worker I asked about a god that would send people to hell, called me the 'spawn of the devil'. I was 12 years old when I learned who she thought my father was! However, I am not the child of God or the devil. My father was a man I never met but I'm pretty sure he was neither the devil nor god. Wow, a worker who would call a 12 year old adopted girl "spawn of the devil" could do a lot of damage over the course of her career. I'm so sorry you had to deal with that kind of abuse as a child Snow.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 18, 2014 15:31:33 GMT -5
hmm I guess I now know why the worker I asked about a god that would send people to hell, called me the 'spawn of the devil'. I was 12 years old when I learned who she thought my father was! However, I am not the child of God or the devil. My father was a man I never met but I'm pretty sure he was neither the devil nor god. Wow, a worker who would call a 12 year old adopted girl "spawn of the devil" could do a lot of damage over the course of her career. I'm so sorry you had to deal with that kind of abuse as a child Snow. Im sorry too. That would have been dreadful coming from a worker. Especially at that age. Its a word curse. Im glad you had a good grandfather.
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Post by faune on Oct 19, 2014 11:53:23 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Perhaps you need to specify your views as being the Christian concept connected to salvation here? However, there are some people who believe in God existence, but not according to Christianity or other religions. For example, there are many embracing New Age teachings today as an alternative to the exclusiveness of religions. However, there are others who choose not to embrace any of these avenues due to lack of belief in deities of any kind due to rationalization.
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