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Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 0:33:50 GMT -5
thats a good question for which i have no clear answer...maybe its becuase they are afriad of misinterpretations by children? Wouldn't education be a remedy for misinterpretations?
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Post by xna on Oct 18, 2014 12:42:06 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Oct 18, 2014 19:48:46 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Oct 19, 2014 8:43:53 GMT -5
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
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Post by Annan on Oct 25, 2014 9:26:14 GMT -5
I sent my children to Sunday School at a Methodist church... it was across the street from my house... so that they would learn Bible stories and know what others believed. Growing up I would hear other children talk about Bible stories and I had no clue what they were talking about. You don't pick that up as a child going to what I always termed adult church. Boring. Make learning fun and interesting, even if it is religion.
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Post by rational on Oct 26, 2014 6:37:02 GMT -5
I sent my children to Sunday School at a Methodist church... it was across the street from my house... so that they would learn Bible stories and know what others believed. Growing up I would hear other children talk about Bible stories and I had no clue what they were talking about. You don't pick that up as a child going to what I always termed adult church. Boring. Make learning fun and interesting, even if it is religion. :P Education in the arts, literature, sciences, and world religions is never a bad thing.
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Post by snow on Oct 26, 2014 15:05:36 GMT -5
I sent my children to Sunday School at a Methodist church... it was across the street from my house... so that they would learn Bible stories and know what others believed. Growing up I would hear other children talk about Bible stories and I had no clue what they were talking about. You don't pick that up as a child going to what I always termed adult church. Boring. Make learning fun and interesting, even if it is religion. Education in the arts, literature, sciences, and world religions is never a bad thing. I think if it was mandatory for everyone to take a course in world religions there might be fewer that believed in religions. They would see the history of all of them, their specific beliefs and the philosophy behind religion in the first place. Trouble is they only know their own and not even that at to great a depth. One of the most eye opening things I ever did was start studying many of the world's religions and their holy books and history of beliefs. Made me realize just how pagan Christianity really was for example and how similar the Christ story is to quite a few older religions.
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Post by faune on Oct 26, 2014 18:40:15 GMT -5
Education in the arts, literature, sciences, and world religions is never a bad thing. I think if it was mandatory for everyone to take a course in world religions there might be fewer that believed in religions. They would see the history of all of them, their specific beliefs and the philosophy behind religion in the first place. Trouble is they only know their own and not even that at to great a depth. One of the most eye opening things I ever did was start studying many of the world's religions and their holy books and history of beliefs. Made me realize just how pagan Christianity really was for example and how similar the Christ story is to quite a few older religions. Snow ~ As a Christian, I hate to admit it, but what you share is true from my own research into early Christianity along with other world religions. There's definitely a connection between them! However, when I first started my research along these lines, I was investigating the evidence for the historical Jesus at first and then got into checking out the writings of the ECF's and early Gnostic believers. One thing that caught my attention recently was the Gnostic writing entitled the "Gospel of Nicodemus." Since it was Roman custom to leave the bodies of people charged with crimes against the state on the cross for scavenger birds and animals to devour, the fact that Joseph of Armethea, a member of the Sanhedrin, was granted the body for burial is worth noting. You had to be a person of prominence to be granted such a request from the Governor (Pilate), and Joseph seemingly met that criteria? However, it was not the normal custom at that time. Being made conscious of this fact helped to explain a question within my own mind regarding the claims within the gospels. My guess is that it was true and the empty tomb was a reality later on, which contributed to the resurrection accounts left on record?
www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelnicodemus.html
www.sacred-texts.com/bib/lbob/lbob10.htm
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Post by snow on Oct 26, 2014 19:14:11 GMT -5
I think if it was mandatory for everyone to take a course in world religions there might be fewer that believed in religions. They would see the history of all of them, their specific beliefs and the philosophy behind religion in the first place. Trouble is they only know their own and not even that at to great a depth. One of the most eye opening things I ever did was start studying many of the world's religions and their holy books and history of beliefs. Made me realize just how pagan Christianity really was for example and how similar the Christ story is to quite a few older religions. Snow ~ As a Christian, I hate to admit it, but what you share is true from my own research into early Christianity along with other world religions. There's definitely a connection between them! However, when I first started my research along these lines, I was investigating the evidence for the historical Jesus at first and then got into checking out the writings of the ECF's and early Gnostic believers. One thing that caught my attention recently was the Gnostic writing entitled the "Gospel of Nicodemus." Since it was Roman custom to leave the bodies of people charged with crimes against the state on the cross for scavenger birds and animals to devour, the fact that Joseph of Armethea, a member of the Sanhedrin, was granted the body for burial is worth noting. You had to be a person of prominence to be granted such a request from the Governor (Pilate), and Joseph seemingly met that criteria? However, it was not the normal custom at that time. Being made conscious of this fact helped to explain a question within my own mind regarding the claims within the gospels. My guess is that it was true and the empty tomb was a reality later on, which contributed to the resurrection accounts left on record?
www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelnicodemus.html
James, Jesus' brother was also one of the temple priests. He had relatives in high places (other than God I mean). There was something I read a long time ago about these people giving Jesus something in the sponge that he was given before he supposedly died that would make him unconscious and appear to have died. Then because he was taken down from the cross, which was unusual like you state, he was put in a tomb of a friend. There are those who feel he was part of the Essenes and that he was revived and taken to their compound out in the desert where his wounds were tended to and he lived to tell the tale. That is why there were so many separate stories of him travelling to India and his tomb actually being there later on in life. That would make more sense to me than him dying, rising again and then ascending to heaven. However, if the story is not historical and is symbolic then he is just one of many dying/rising Godmen throughout history.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2014 19:20:38 GMT -5
Education in the arts, literature, sciences, and world religions is never a bad thing. I think if it was mandatory for everyone to take a course in world religions there might be fewer that believed in religions. They would see the history of all of them, their specific beliefs and the philosophy behind religion in the first place. Trouble is they only know their own and not even that at to great a depth. One of the most eye opening things I ever did was start studying many of the world's religions and their holy books and history of beliefs. Made me realize just how pagan Christianity really was for example and how similar the Christ story is to quite a few older religions. don't worry the public schools are being sanitized of religion as we speak by secular progressives fewer believing in religions is not far off...
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Post by snow on Oct 26, 2014 20:24:45 GMT -5
I think if it was mandatory for everyone to take a course in world religions there might be fewer that believed in religions. They would see the history of all of them, their specific beliefs and the philosophy behind religion in the first place. Trouble is they only know their own and not even that at to great a depth. One of the most eye opening things I ever did was start studying many of the world's religions and their holy books and history of beliefs. Made me realize just how pagan Christianity really was for example and how similar the Christ story is to quite a few older religions. don't worry the public schools are being sanitized of religion as we speak by secular progressives fewer believing in religions is not far off... Sanitized? I have no problem with kids learning about the world religions. In fact I wish they would teach them about all of them. I don't think religion should be in a science class and I don't think it's right to bring prayer into public schools that have such a diverse population with many different religious beliefs and gods. Besides, didn't Jesus say not to pray in public? Go into a closet and close your door?
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Post by faune on Oct 26, 2014 23:21:27 GMT -5
Snow ~ As a Christian, I hate to admit it, but what you share is true from my own research into early Christianity along with other world religions. There's definitely a connection between them! However, when I first started my research along these lines, I was investigating the evidence for the historical Jesus at first and then got into checking out the writings of the ECF's and early Gnostic believers. One thing that caught my attention recently was the Gnostic writing entitled the "Gospel of Nicodemus." Since it was Roman custom to leave the bodies of people charged with crimes against the state on the cross for scavenger birds and animals to devour, the fact that Joseph of Armethea, a member of the Sanhedrin, was granted the body for burial is worth noting. You had to be a person of prominence to be granted such a request from the Governor (Pilate), and Joseph seemingly met that criteria? However, it was not the normal custom at that time. Being made conscious of this fact helped to explain a question within my own mind regarding the claims within the gospels. My guess is that it was true and the empty tomb was a reality later on, which contributed to the resurrection accounts left on record?
www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelnicodemus.html
www.sacred-texts.com/bib/lbob/lbob10.htm
James, Jesus' brother was also one of the temple priests. He had relatives in high places (other than God I mean). There was something I read a long time ago about these people giving Jesus something in the sponge that he was given before he supposedly died that would make him unconscious and appear to have died. Then because he was taken down from the cross, which was unusual like you state, he was put in a tomb of a friend. There are those who feel he was part of the Essenes and that he was revived and taken to their compound out in the desert where his wounds were tended to and he lived to tell the tale. That is why there were so many separate stories of him travelling to India and his tomb actually being there later on in life. That would make more sense to me than him dying, rising again and then ascending to heaven. However, if the story is not historical and is symbolic then he is just one of many dying/rising Godmen throughout history. Snow ~ The possibility of Jesus surviving crucifixion is highly unlikely, when you read over this description of Scourging and Crucifixion under as practiced by the Romans during the first century. Most of the criminals were scourged to near death before they were finally crucified and some never made it past the scourging, which was pretty brutal. Here's a description below of Roman scourging and crucifixion to give you an idea of what was involved here and why I feel it would be highly unlikely anybody could have survived very long under these circumstances.
www.frugalsites.net/jesus/scourging.htm
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Post by faune on Oct 26, 2014 23:35:18 GMT -5
Snow ~ In addition to the described practice of scourging before crucifixion, there was also two methods used to insure a person was dead before their body was removed from the cross. They pierced his right side with a spear to his heart, and if needed, they broke both his legs, to guarantee his soon death. In Jesus' case, he as already dead when the Roman soldier pierced his right side with the sword to the heart. But, since he was already dead before, it wasn't necessary to break his legs in this case. However, this article said it was customary to take the bodies down before the Sabbath, but from what I have read elsewhere, this was only done upon special request from some high rating official connected to the family and had to be granted by the Roman Potentate, which was Pilate at this time.
From Wiki, pertaining to Roman Crucifixion:
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Post by rational on Oct 27, 2014 8:10:57 GMT -5
don't worry the public schools are being sanitized of religion as we speak by secular progressives fewer believing in religions is not far off... There is a difference between teaching about religions and teaching a religion.
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Post by snow on Oct 27, 2014 11:47:01 GMT -5
James, Jesus' brother was also one of the temple priests. He had relatives in high places (other than God I mean). There was something I read a long time ago about these people giving Jesus something in the sponge that he was given before he supposedly died that would make him unconscious and appear to have died. Then because he was taken down from the cross, which was unusual like you state, he was put in a tomb of a friend. There are those who feel he was part of the Essenes and that he was revived and taken to their compound out in the desert where his wounds were tended to and he lived to tell the tale. That is why there were so many separate stories of him travelling to India and his tomb actually being there later on in life. That would make more sense to me than him dying, rising again and then ascending to heaven. However, if the story is not historical and is symbolic then he is just one of many dying/rising Godmen throughout history. Snow ~ The possibility of Jesus surviving crucifixion is highly unlikely, when you read over this description of Scourging and Crucifixion under as practiced by the Romans during the first century. Most of the criminals were scourged to near death before they were finally crucified and some never made it past the scourging, which was pretty brutal. Here's a description below of Roman scourging and crucifixion to give you an idea of what was involved here and why I feel it would be highly unlikely anybody could have survived very long under these circumstances.
www.frugalsites.net/jesus/scourging.htm
Yes, it was a horrendous ordeal, no question. He did escape the breaking of the knees though. What the authors were saying was that if he was given something to cause unconsciousness, then the breaking of his knees would be avoided and sure death fairly quickly after that. I'm not advocating one way or the other, just listing another theory of what some who have studied the subject say could have happened.
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Post by faune on Oct 27, 2014 13:12:29 GMT -5
Snow ~ The possibility of Jesus surviving crucifixion is highly unlikely, when you read over this description of Scourging and Crucifixion under as practiced by the Romans during the first century. Most of the criminals were scourged to near death before they were finally crucified and some never made it past the scourging, which was pretty brutal. Here's a description below of Roman scourging and crucifixion to give you an idea of what was involved here and why I feel it would be highly unlikely anybody could have survived very long under these circumstances.
www.frugalsites.net/jesus/scourging.htm
Yes, it was a horrendous ordeal, no question. He did escape the breaking of the knees though. What the authors were saying was that if he was given something to cause unconsciousness, then the breaking of his knees would be avoided and sure death fairly quickly after that. I'm not advocating one way or the other, just listing another theory of what some who have studied the subject say could have happened. Snow ~ I agree. It was a horrendous way to die. Added to this fact, the Romans were very brutal when it came to capital punishment. To make sure the person was dead on the cross, they would pierce the right side through the heart even before releasing a dead body from the cross to a relative, even if the person appeared dead already, according to this earlier quoted article and also the gospel account.
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Post by faune on Oct 28, 2014 11:49:26 GMT -5
Snow ~ In relation to that rumor of Jesus ending up later in India, here's a BBC Documentary on that same subject which relates Jesus' teachings to being similar to those of Buda along with some discussions relating to early Christianity and Jesus' early life around the 12 minute marker. According to this legend, Jesus traveled to India when he was about 14 years old and resided there up until the time he returned and began his ministry back in Galilee.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiy5uY3Iw2s Jesus in India? (BBC Documentary ~ Mysteries of the Bible)
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Post by faune on Oct 28, 2014 12:10:30 GMT -5
Snow ~ I also found the legends surrounding Joseph of Arimathea pretty interesting to read on Wiki recently. One Catholic legend has it that he was the rich uncle of Mary, mother of Jesus found in this article, and therefore qualified as a family member of Jesus. Also, there was the other legend about Jesus being connected to the wealthy Essenes sect that you related earlier in a post. However, one thing to remember is that there were a lot of forgeries in circulation during those first four centuries after Jesus' death, so distinguishing which were authentic would have been quite an endeavor. It took the Catholic Church years to come up with their own list of canonical books for inclusion in the Bible, picking 4 gospel accounts out of about 50 gospels in circulation within 100 years after Jesus' death, according to one commentator, located around the 6 minute marker of the previous video.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Arimathea
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Post by snow on Oct 28, 2014 16:37:23 GMT -5
Snow ~ In relation to that rumor of Jesus ending up later in India, here's a BBC Documentary on that same subject which relates Jesus' teachings to being similar to those of Buda along with some discussions relating to early Christianity and Jesus' early life around the 12 minute marker. According to this legend, Jesus traveled to India when he was about 14 years old and resided there up until the time he returned and began his ministry back in Galilee.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiy5uY3Iw2s Jesus in India? (BBC Documentary ~ Mysteries of the Bible)
There is supposed to be documents in a monastery in Tibet that says Jesus, Thomas, Mary Magdelene, John the Baptist and Joseph of Arimathea traveled there together and John came back earlier than the rest to get people ready for Jesus' return to Israel. Some say they have seen these documents, most say they are fraudulent. Who knows. According to the documents it sounds as though Jesus preached his way back and just escaped with his life in several places.
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Post by snow on Oct 28, 2014 16:40:06 GMT -5
Snow ~ I also found the legends surrounding Joseph of Arimathea pretty interesting to read on Wiki recently. One Catholic legend has it that he was the rich uncle of Mary, mother of Jesus found in this article, and therefore qualified as a family member of Jesus. Also, there was the other legend about Jesus being connected to the wealthy Essenes sect that you related earlier in a post. However, one thing to remember is that there were a lot of forgeries in circulation during those first four centuries after Jesus' death, so distinguishing which were authentic would have been quite an endeavor. It took the Catholic Church years to come up with their own list of canonical books for inclusion in the Bible, picking 4 gospel accounts out of about 50 gospels in circulation within 100 years after Jesus' death, according to one commentator, located around the 6 minute marker of the previous video.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Arimathea Yes, that has come out in a few writings that Joseph was a rich uncle. Makes sense in a way because it's obvious that Jesus' family was not as 'poor' as people think. James, Jesus' brother was temple high priest so the family had pull and were not irrelevant in the big picture.
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Post by faune on Oct 28, 2014 22:24:53 GMT -5
Snow ~ I also found the legends surrounding Joseph of Arimathea pretty interesting to read on Wiki recently. One Catholic legend has it that he was the rich uncle of Mary, mother of Jesus found in this article, and therefore qualified as a family member of Jesus. Also, there was the other legend about Jesus being connected to the wealthy Essenes sect that you related earlier in a post. However, one thing to remember is that there were a lot of forgeries in circulation during those first four centuries after Jesus' death, so distinguishing which were authentic would have been quite an endeavor. It took the Catholic Church years to come up with their own list of canonical books for inclusion in the Bible, picking 4 gospel accounts out of about 50 gospels in circulation within 100 years after Jesus' death, according to one commentator, located around the 6 minute marker of the previous video.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Arimathea Yes, that has come out in a few writings that Joseph was a rich uncle. Makes sense in a way because it's obvious that Jesus' family was not as 'poor' as people think. James, Jesus' brother was temple high priest so the family had pull and were not irrelevant in the big picture. Snow ~ Bart Ehrman wrote two books that deal with the prevalence of numerous forgeries that circulated during early Christianity. They are Forged and Misquoting Jesus. I have only previewed these books, but have them on my future reading list after I complete Ehrman's last book, How Jesus Became God. Unfortunately, I'm moving slowly in this area of reading these books due to other obligations which take precedence at home.
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Post by snow on Oct 29, 2014 10:26:08 GMT -5
Yes, that has come out in a few writings that Joseph was a rich uncle. Makes sense in a way because it's obvious that Jesus' family was not as 'poor' as people think. James, Jesus' brother was temple high priest so the family had pull and were not irrelevant in the big picture. Snow ~ Bart Ehrman wrote two books that deal with the prevalence of numerous forgeries that circulated during early Christianity. They are Forged and Misquoting Jesus. I have only previewed these books, but have them on my future reading list after I complete Ehrman's last book, How Jesus Became God. Unfortunately, I'm moving slowly in this area of reading these books due to other obligations which take precedence at home.
I think it is telling that there were many gospels that were written, and it took a couple of centuries for the RCC to chose just 4 that made their Bible. I think the reason many do not believe Jesus was a historical person was due to the lack of any biography about him really. They talk of his birth, some of his ministry and his death and resurrection. A few Gnostic writings try to fill in his childhood, but because of some not so wonderful behaviors on the part of Jesus, they quite obviously didn't make the bible's approved reading. I think it is altogether possible he traveled during this time because he did have quite a few thoughts that very much resembled the Buddhist thought and were quite alien to the way the Hebrew people thought. So I guess it is possible he was influenced by Buddha. But there still is the huge possibility that he is a symbolic figure like the other 'Christs' that came before him. There certainly are enough similarities between him and some of the ones that came before. The belief in a dying rising God man was not alien to the beliefs of that time. The son/sun has always been a worship symbol and the parallels between the story of his birth and death are very interesting. Really we don't have much more on him. Contemporaries in his time didn't write about him. There are a few mentions that scholars say are clearly forged after the fact because they do not match the 'voice' that these people usually used in their writings. If he did exist historically, he and his followers would have been considered a cult by today's definition. In fact it took quite a long time for Christianity to become an accepted more traditional type religion.
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Post by faune on Oct 29, 2014 10:49:43 GMT -5
Snow ~ I have come across similar findings to yours from my research into early Christianity and the historical Jesus. I learned things I never dreamed of discovering from my investigation, too. However, I'm still try to sort it all out and make some sense out of it in my mind as to what was true fact about Jesus and what was added to the storyline along the way.
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Post by rational on Oct 29, 2014 16:43:45 GMT -5
Does sunday school explain the anachronism found in Matthew 16:24?
Or is the claim that Jesus could see the future?
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Post by snow on Oct 29, 2014 19:47:30 GMT -5
Snow ~ I have come across similar findings to yours from my research into early Christianity and the historical Jesus. I learned things I never dreamed of discovering from my investigation, too. However, I'm still try to sort it all out and make some sense out of it in my mind as to what was true fact about Jesus and what was added to the storyline along the way. Good luck with that. I don't think anyone will ever be able to know the truth about what happened. Not enough there to make any sense out of it imo. About the only thing we know for sure it that a religious group other than Judaism veered off to become what we now know as Christianity.
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Post by faune on Oct 29, 2014 22:21:25 GMT -5
Snow ~ I have come across similar findings to yours from my research into early Christianity and the historical Jesus. I learned things I never dreamed of discovering from my investigation, too. However, I'm still try to sort it all out and make some sense out of it in my mind as to what was true fact about Jesus and what was added to the storyline along the way. Good luck with that. I don't think anyone will ever be able to know the truth about what happened. Not enough there to make any sense out of it imo. About the only thing we know for sure it that a religious group other than Judaism veered off to become what we now know as Christianity. Snow ~ That's true. However, what is amazing is how Christianity took hold and has grown to be the largest world religion today. Obviously, something fueled the fire back in time?
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Post by snow on Oct 30, 2014 12:21:10 GMT -5
Good luck with that. I don't think anyone will ever be able to know the truth about what happened. Not enough there to make any sense out of it imo. About the only thing we know for sure it that a religious group other than Judaism veered off to become what we now know as Christianity. Snow ~ That's true. However, what is amazing is how Christianity took hold and has grown to be the largest world religion today. Obviously, something fueled the fire back in time?
I think the backing of Constantine helped because it 1. got rid of a lot of the gnostic groups and their literature 2. Defined the Trinity belief and got rid of those who opposed that belief. Having the backing of the Emperor was a plus. Before that it was just a bunch of groups fighting over doctrine and people thought they were nuts.
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Post by faune on Oct 30, 2014 12:30:25 GMT -5
Snow ~ That's true. However, what is amazing is how Christianity took hold and has grown to be the largest world religion today. Obviously, something fueled the fire back in time?
I think the backing of Constantine helped because it 1. got rid of a lot of the gnostic groups and their literature 2. Defined the Trinity belief and got rid of those who opposed that belief. Having the backing of the Emperor was a plus. Before that it was just a bunch of groups fighting over doctrine and people thought they were nuts. Snow ~ That is so true! When Constantine ordered them to come together in 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea, they had a lot of different beliefs regarding Jesus and his divinity along with other areas of difference. The Emperor ordered about 300 bishops them to stick around until they could come to some consensus of agreement on doctrine. For those who didn't cooperate, well, they were permanently removed from the discussion and their followers were hunted down as heretics. Nothing like making them an offer they couldn't refuse, huh? However, it did have a stabilizing influence upon Christianity overall. Unfortunately, things got a little radical later on under the RCC with the different inquisitions, crusades, and witch hunts which followed down through the centuries, which detracted from the actual teachings of Jesus due to man-made religion.
www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html
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