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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 25, 2014 19:36:03 GMT -5
review wrote: I am glad that my redeemer does not analyse my sin the way you analyse sin. I guess you understand you will be judged in the manner you judge?
Referring to: Matt 7:1-2 KJV: Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Actually, Jesus doesnt say who will do the judging of those who judge...whether it was the receivers of the judgment of God or Jesus, etc. It is natural for the judged/condemned to have the urge to retaliate. However, one of God's attributes is that he is JUST. If God judged men as that man had judged others--would this be fair/just? IMO, it would also be men confining God to a box--I believe the verse means men will judge you the way you judge them. If you (judge) aka bend over backwards to understand, not to offend, to be fair and truthful, not backstabbing and fault finding--most will treat you the same.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 25, 2014 19:40:21 GMT -5
Something worth remembering is 'the anointing is without repentance.' That means that mankind with his imperfect character flaws can still minister the anointing while sinning.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 20:44:28 GMT -5
With due respect if your conviction is that if a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again. Then I understand why our friends and workers there are unable to be in agreement with you. This was not the only issue that we placed before F&W's. Here is the complete list: 1) that NO known child molester is allowed to enter or remain in the work; 2) that all senior workers will work to effect a change in the fellowship culture for the purpose of creating a safer environment for children; 3) that in cases of alleged CSA, parents of victims, adult victims, and other concerned individuals will be encouraged to report allegations to authorities, and that workers will not try to judge whether an allegation is true or false, but will allow trained and authorized professionals to investigate; 4) that if a known child molester is placed in a meeting, people in the meeting will be notified, so that they can exercise due vigilance with their children; 5) that NO known child molester will be allowed to attend conventions; 6) that NO ONE who has committed sexual immorality (regardless of whether it’s consensual or abusive in nature) is allowed to remain in the work; 7) that there will be ONE standard on how to deal with those who have committed sins of sexual immorality regardless of their place and position in the church, and regardless of the presence or lack of an outward evidence of their sin; 8) that those who have abused the trust given to them because of their place in the ministry through sexual immorality and abuse will not be eased out of work in a secretive way, but will be openly rebuked before the church. Would you agree with anything on this list?
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 20:57:33 GMT -5
Something worth remembering is 'the anointing is without repentance.' That means that mankind with his imperfect character flaws can still minister the anointing while sinning. What scripture do you have in mind?
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 20:57:49 GMT -5
This situation (from what I understand) was quite a complex one for Ray to handle. I don't know Ray personally but have heard that he is quite open privately about some of the challenges that the church faces in this area. With Ira's situation, Ray was obviously trying to walk a fine line. I quote from the letter sent out to head workers in the US (and around the world?) in 2013 by concerned friends: "We are unable to conclude that there is uniform consensus in the ministry regarding these issues. We know for a fact that some workers still do not understand that CSA must be reported. Ray Hoffman has told us that he “received a lot of flak” for removing Ira Hobbs from the work ‐ even for horrific CSA allegations. An elder confirmed to us that it required great effort against much resistance in order to address Ira’s status. Also, some who have engaged in immoral behavior are being allowed to remain in the work. We believe that it is necessary that there be a uniform and public church‐wide commitment to purity in the ministry and safety of the flock ‐ especially children, and to deal with these issues legally and scripturally. We personally feel that CSA allegations cannot be handled appropriately by the ministry if it remains compromised by immorality in its ranks...." It is an enormously sad reflection on senior workers that Ray would have to even walk this fine line. There are a number of workers and friends (I know this for a fact) that would still rather push under the carpet crimes by workers than talk about them, let alone report them to police. In talking to a close relative about it recently the response was simply - "I don't want to talk about any negatives about the workers - I only want to talk about the positives." You are very correct about the letter and the difficulty Ray had in composing it and about the opposition he faced in dealing with IH. Another factor was that he wanted to address concerns of those workers who didn't know how to process the fact that they had spent some years under the guidance or IH. This one was hard for me to understand, but perhaps it has to do with the spiritual importance worker assign to the one in the place of Overseer. Both factors help explain questions, and both also raise more questions. Yes, there are those who believe that talking about difficult subjects can "destroy the truth" and openly state it as the reason why they shouldn't be talked about.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 21:03:02 GMT -5
Exclusiveness Jesus is the Truth, Way, Life, and Fellowship is to eliminate ANY confusion for the followers! When there is ONLY one road to travel on then there is no confusion of going off roads, looking for short cuts, etc. To allow the travelers to be saved when they STAY on the ONLY road/Jesus to reach their destiny/Heaven.
The workers are like the flag workers, who direct/warn the travelers to Stay on the narrow path, and don't try go off the ONLY road, looking for short cut. That is your explanation of exclusivity, but do you have verses to back it up with? (Personally, I think the one about judging by the fruit is sussicient.)
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 21:13:50 GMT -5
How can a leader speak/preach against sexual immorality and at the same time be engaging in it? That's a very important question to ask.
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 21:16:49 GMT -5
Yes, there are those who believe that talking about difficult subjects can "destroy the truth" and openly state it as the reason why they shouldn't be talked about. I think the opposite is true: Failure to talk about difficult subjects can "destroy the truth".
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 21:22:55 GMT -5
One of the top leaders, Ray Hoffman, seems to place a higher value on service in the ministry than on protecting children's homes from sexually immoral workers. i.e. he seems to compartmentalize the two issues of service to the ministry on the one hand and sexual immorality on the other. Are workers so much higher than the friends that we should be thankful even for the sexually immoral ones? Did you take the opportunity to ask Ray when he was here? Courage for that? As others have pointed out, Ray was navigating the politics of the organization. I haven't met Ray but I've heard that he's a good man. It's sad that the system puts so much pressure on good men.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 25, 2014 21:23:08 GMT -5
How can a leader speak/preach against sexual immorality and at the same time be engaging in it? That's a very important question to ask. Ross Very easily. Often if there is a problem that person will preach against it a lot. From guilt. Not from the inspiration of the holy spirit.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 21:24:53 GMT -5
Maja you wrote "Review005 and virgo,I find your insisting that we should not hold up the fellowship for examination, but only ourselves"This is an incorrect statement you have made (about me...anyway). I do not insist that we should not hold up the fellowship for examination. Please quote the post I have made that supports your statement. Sorry, I don't know how to tag posts, so I have to copy and past manually:
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 21:44:52 GMT -5
Let us consider that we are all vulnerable creatures, we make mistakes because we are not perfect. Let us consider Saul the persecuter of the early Christian church, he was consenting to the stoning of Stephen and his death. However, God was able to make a change in his life on his way to Tarsus when he heard the voice of Jesus and saw that bright light so that he became an apostle of Christ and became Paul. From his past reputation some of the early Christians feared him, but he was a changed man of God. With God all things are possible, we should bear that in mind when contemplatingg making changes. Let us also consider that people known for numerous offenses have been allowed to continue on in the work. Let us consider that there are those who have not shown signs of repentance, and are still in the work. Let us consider that the ministry as a whole has not demonstrated willingness or ability to commit to dealing with (even repeated) sexual immorality/abuse in its ranks uprightly and that many have been harmed as a result.... If sexual immorality is what you had in mind in your post. With God, all is possible, but is man hindering?
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 21:57:26 GMT -5
As others have pointed out, Ray was navigating the politics of the organization. I haven't met Ray but I've heard that he's a good man. It's sad that the system puts so much pressure on good men. I am unable to understand how folk post One of the top leaders, Ray Hoffman, seems to place a higher value on service in the ministry than on protecting children's homes from sexually immoral workers i.e. he seems to compartmentalize the two issues of service to the ministry on the one hand and sexual immorality on the other. Are workers so much higher than the friends that we should be thankful even for the sexually immoral ones?
and then when asked if they made use of the opportunity to get the answer to their question change tack and say "Ray is a good man, it's the system."When folk instead of posting as above contact the man and give him opportunity to explain himself then their posts will have meaning. Ideally, on this thread we would discuss only systemic issues - but personalities become part of the discussion when examples of systemic failure are referred to.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 21:59:26 GMT -5
Are you dismissing seduction as an activity that men and women use when immorality occurs? I am glad that my redeemer does not analyse my sin the way you analyse sin. I guess you understand you will be judged in the manner you judge? Jesus is the master analyser of sin. The purpose of analysing sin is not to bring down (Satan's chosen job), but to shine light on the problem so that the root of it can be found, in order to be able to deal with it. If an offending worker is told by his peers or superiors that he has been automatically forgiven, are they helping him shine the light on the problem, discover and face the root of the problem, and deal with the root of problem? I don't think so. They are turning out the lights, and saying: "Never mind that, it was only a slip-up. We are sure there is nothing on the inside broken, and even if there is we would rather not know. Let's go back to business as usual." That is false love, not true spiritual love.
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Post by open mind on Sept 25, 2014 22:09:05 GMT -5
A Youth Program would be a great addition to the 2x2 church
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 22:13:57 GMT -5
Indeed it is, fellowship with Jesus. Not fellowship with the "Fellowship" It is with the New Testament "Fellowship" of Jesus. I had attended others "Fellowship" before I became a 2x2 so I know what I am talking about.I did too. That you or I claim that we "know what we are talking about" is not going to prove anything to anybody else.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 22:15:44 GMT -5
Partaker True Paul was many things prior to his conversion but he didnt mess with childrens lives. Or men's wives.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 22:30:56 GMT -5
Your reply to the question: what do you think needs to improve in the F&W Fellowship?You did not indicate in what way or if in any the Fellowship needs to improve. Instead, you switched the focus from the fellowship to yourself. Notice that the question was not about how we personally could improve or how our own condition affects the wellbeing of the church.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 22:34:32 GMT -5
I did too. That you or I claim that we "know what we are talking about" is not going to prove anything to anybody else. You can share your experience, I share mine and let the readers decide what to believe for themselves.I think I've done plenty of that here, although not with the purpose of proving which church is right or if there is just one church that is right, but with the purpose of discussing certain practices and understandings that affect the church community.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 22:48:13 GMT -5
I was not talking about analysing sins of repented sinners, but about the fact that when it comes to things discussed here, someone saying: "I've repented! I won't do it again! is not enough. Please do not insert words (repented) into the middle of the conversation and change the topic. For verses that show that Jesus does analyse sin, look at Matthew 5.
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 23:27:20 GMT -5
The selective mercy on this thread seems like a double standard to me.
If an unmarried woman finds herself pregnant she's made a public example of.
However the same behaviour from a worker is excused or hidden.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 26, 2014 0:56:38 GMT -5
Something worth remembering is 'the anointing is without repentance.' That means that mankind with his imperfect character flaws can still minister the anointing while sinning. What scripture do you have in mind? 2 SAM 11 David and Bathsheba. David had a heart after God. The lord loved David. David remained in the city. He should have been at war. David was supposed to be watching. He was diverted by Bathsheba's beauty, slept with her and she got pregnant. Bathsheba was Uriah's wife a servant of David. David wanted Uriah killed so sent him too the front line of battle. Uriah was a faithful servant. Bathsheba mourned Uriah. After that David wedd her. What David did displeased the Lord.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 1:02:03 GMT -5
and how are you going to make sure? Look at the fruit. how are you going to make the fellowship look at the fruit?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 26, 2014 1:19:09 GMT -5
The selective mercy on this thread seems like a double standard to me. If an unmarried woman finds herself pregnant she's made a public example of. However the same behaviour from a worker is excused or hidden. No doubt you'll be able substantiate & prove your allegation? Your track record is not strong; but please surprise us this time ! Something beyond the sweeping and incorrect generalisations that you excell in. Review005 Why you being nasty?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 26, 2014 1:29:55 GMT -5
how are you going to make the fellowship look at the fruit? Virgo You know how the bible talks about putting off the old man and putting on the new man? Lets say I have anger or resentment towards someone because they have a better car and seem to have the midas touch. They seem rich. I work hard but cant get ahead. If I harbour that anger/resentment it affects my life. Jesus wants us to be free. So bible says put off anger and put on kindness. Kindness is a fruit. Good things are fruit. Love hope joy peace longsuffering patience etc If I was once angry and now I am kind people can see it feel it. That is what it means when we produce good fruit. It is one of things most people who love their God try to do. The fruit of repentance is slightly different. It is when say a guy from the black power is bornagain. He changes radically from a murder into a lamb. Loving merciful caring towards women instead of an abuser. Total heart change for the better.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 1:35:49 GMT -5
how are you going to make the fellowship look at the fruit? Virgo You know how the bible talks about putting off the old man and putting on the new man? Lets say I have anger or resentment towards someone because they have a better car and seem to have the midas touch. They seem rich. I work hard but cant get ahead. If I harbour that anger/resentment it affects my life. Jesus wants us to be free. So bible says put off anger and put on kindness. Kindness is a fruit. Good things are fruit. Love hope joy peace longsuffering patience etc If I was once angry and now I am kind people can see it feel it. That is what it means when we produce good fruit. It is one of things most people who love their God try to do. The fruit of repentance is slightly different. It is when say a guy from the black power is bornagain. He changes radically from a murder into a lamb. Loving merciful caring towards women instead of an abuser. Total heart change for the better. yea yea know all that. i want to know how fixit is going to make the fellowship look at the fruit
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Post by bubbles on Sept 26, 2014 1:43:00 GMT -5
Virgo This should already be happening. Had a pastor who used to say sooner or later the fruit ripens whether good or bad fruit. Its true.
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2014 1:54:25 GMT -5
how are you going to make the fellowship look at the fruit? You wrote: "do you think God is leading this fellowship?" We get the answer to this question by looking at the fruit. I can't make the fellowship do anything. It will do what it will do.
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