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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 0:06:28 GMT -5
Maja Perhaps the word godly has different use and connotation for me than it does for you? When I see evidence of godliness/the Spirit of Christ working in a person I may use the word 'godly'. That the person would be a worker or Overseer is NOT a qualification necessary for me to use it. The word has no cultic connotation when I use it. I stand by the statement I made that I consider the statement fixit made to be a sweeping and incorrect generalization. I am quite happy for others to feel that it is not. To me, someone is godly because of the fruit in their life, not because of the place they occupy. You referred to Overseers in general as "godly men like Lyle." I don't have a reason to believe that those who belong to the Overseer group are godly any more than others or even that all of them are godly. It sounded as if you were implying that they are all godly and 'godly' in a special way. Perhaps that can be avoided by not referring to them as 'godly men.'
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 0:17:12 GMT -5
Fixit's observation was that the church leaders are unable or unwilling to deal with the issues that are driving people away. Specifically, they are unable or unwilling to deal with issues that drove my husband and I away. Would you like to comment on that, because that is really at the heart of the matter of what fixit is talking about? Review005, do you have any meaningful comment on Maja's question?
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 0:33:02 GMT -5
Maja's concerns and experiences are well documented.
If the ministry can't draw and retain folks like Maja and her husband, I have to wonder what exactly the ministry is trying to achieve?
Does it seek only unquestioning minions and sycophants?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 25, 2014 0:41:11 GMT -5
Does AR come to tmb?
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 0:44:57 GMT -5
Regarding the instance of Maja I personally would not expect the Overseer of her state ("one of the leaders who spends months at a time tripping around the world having fellowship with their colleagues") to make a public announcement of his communication with Maja nor would I expect him to issue a statement defending himself and what he did after Maja posted her perspective online.
I no nothing of this Maja matter apart from some of her on line posting. There will have been visits and communication with Maja and Lyle. Then Maja and the many others she called. Maja made a decision to sever her relationship with the fellowship (which fixit describes "maja was driven away") If someone who was part of the problem and also part of the solution approached him I would feel confident he would share appropriately and openly with them. Again, this is NOT about Lyle. It is about the whole ministry. Here is why the whole ministry has to be on the same page in order for issues to be dealt with: decisions of one Overseer may affect people in other parts of the country or continent, because workers are sent to different places; another Overseer may be receiving into his field a worker with questionable past and not know it. It's a global issue. Example 1: Lyle says to us that he wouldn't allow immoral workers on his staff. However, we happen to know that a worker who visited us on Special Meeting rounds is known among sister workers to be immoral. There is nothing Lyle alone can do about it. Example 2: I say to Lyle that I cannot accept that a worker who is known to have engaged in sexually immoral behavior (by name) is allowed to remain in the work (and still is). Lyle sadly nods his head. There is nothing he can do about it. Example 3: We ask Lyle: how can we be sure that our daughter, after she is too old to fall under the protection of CSA laws, if harassed by a worker, will not be treated like a certain person was? He said: I wouldn't allow that! Our response was: Lyle, we appreciate you, but what about when you are not in our state any more?
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 0:48:05 GMT -5
Review005, do you have any meaningful comment on Maja's question? explain yourself in a meaningful, fuller manner accompanied by specific situations of which you have correct and accurate knowledge. I am unable to comment meaningfully on the sweeping incorrect generalisation you have made. You seem unable to comment meaningfully on anything that would challenge the status quo.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 1:13:53 GMT -5
Maja Do you feel that if a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again? My short answer is: they should not be in the work. I know this sounds brutal, therefore a longer explanation is required. However, it is very late here and my answer will have to wait till tomorrow. BTW, the worker I mentioned is known for more than one engagement in sexual immorality.
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 1:17:21 GMT -5
I don't know. fixit is a chap who makes statements here that he doesn't have the courage to make to workers in his field or to AR I have no problem with the sisters or AR. Actually I think they're good people, like most of the folks in this fellowship. Lyle S is a good man too. You seem incapable of having a discussion without making it about people. This thread is about "Ways for the F&W fellowship to improve". Can we discuss attitudes and behaviours that could be improved to make the fellowship a better and safer place? BTW, I include myself as I examine the fellowship.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 25, 2014 2:35:28 GMT -5
Review what do you think needs to improve in the F&W Fellowship ? Maybe a good start would be having the same "rules" the world over? Have everyone on the same page ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 25, 2014 2:44:13 GMT -5
Ok, what do you think needs to improve in the F&W Fellowship ?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 25, 2014 2:46:17 GMT -5
One way to improve the fellowship would be to go back to the evangilical way of telling the gospel. We don't seem to see that these days. I could count on my fingers and not need to take my boots off, the number of people (strangers) who have come to meetings and "professed". Review could you tell us what your experience is on this matter and whether you think that the church could do better in attracting more people to the fellowship? perhaps through street corner preaching or more door knocking or handing out leaflets. What ever it takes to tell people about Jesus who died for them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 2:54:50 GMT -5
I don't know. fixit is a chap who makes statements here that he doesn't have the courage to make to workers in his field or to AR I have no problem with the sisters or AR. Actually I think they're good people, like most of the folks in this fellowship. Lyle S is a good man too. You seem incapable of having a discussion without making it about people. This thread is about "Ways for the F&W fellowship to improve". Can we discuss attitudes and behaviours that could be improved to make the fellowship a better and safer place? BTW, I include myself as I examine the fellowship. I wonder how you think it is your place to examine anyone apart from yourself? don't forget the fellowship is the people and i wonder how you will get the many many good people in the fellowship to improve and what improvements could you put in place that would improve these many many good people in the fellowship? and do you not think it is God's work to improve His children? what sort of attitudes and behaviours could you improve for yourself to become improved?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 3:02:55 GMT -5
yes . It is an incorrect generalisation. Like maja I had some concerns when I read what you wrote about "godly men like Lyle S". Lyle S may well be godly but like all of us we would only know that if his deeds matched his words. I guess we all struggle with that at times. On the issue of sweeping/incorrect generalisations we ultimately left the fellowship because of statements which fitted into this category. Some workers (not all) are well practised at this. On this front I don't think the fellowship is improving. Last year we were at a wedding where a senior New South Wales female worker spoke and said that God has two plans for men and women - the first they would marry and the second is the unmarried ministry. I don't read of two plans in the Bible. I recently read some notes from a recent convention at Maroota in New South Wales where Cheryl Meerwald (Sri Lanka) said "When people are told about the New Testament ministry, they often find it hard to grasp how a homeless ministry can be possible. It goes by faith with no collection, no tithing, and the human mind finds it hard it understand it can be possible...." I did not know that (a) the NT ministry was homeless and (b) that it went without collection/tithing etc At the same convention Nathan Collett preached on the conditions of God's grace which according to Nathan are (1) willing to humble ourselves and pray, (2) feeling of need, (3) need to show grace, (4) faith and (5) fear of God. He correctly states that "grace is the gift of God" but "God cannot give it to someone who is not willing to receive it" and that the grace of God "comes in degrees, just like the love of God". He then goes onto say "so, God loves His children to a far greater degree than anyone else" and "Of His children, God loves those far more who are willing to go the extra mile, to show their love for Him and want to prove their love for Him. They don't want to just be His children, but to make their calling and election sure". I did not know that there are multiple conditions of God's grace - I do not read this in the Bible. I understand that if I am a child of God and in His family that my calling and election is sure because of God's grace shown in what Christ has done for me. Of course, there are many helpful messages but I point out some examples of things which are incorrect/sweeping generalisations or where things are wrong and have not improved. When Colin Sanders (Victoria) spoke at a senior worker's funeral in 2011 he said "the work of the servants (workers) is the best paid for all Eternity..." It's an interesting (and proud) statement - is it incorrect? Is it a generalisation? I think the answer is likely Yes on both accounts. A major step forward for the fellowship would be to stop thinking that they have exclusive rights to the Kingdom of God. If they just looked up and out at the work that the Holy Spirit is doing in the hearts of men and women throughout the world it would be very humbling. God is great - we do not have a mortgage on his work. He loves those who call out to him, repent and believe in Him. Exclusivity brings with it erroneous authority and an incorrect view that leaders can add to a gospel that is already 100% complete in Christ. It is not about us - it is about Him. do you think that the majority of the people in the fellowship are followers of Jesus Christ? do you think that the followers of Jesus Christ in the fellowship are God's children? do you think that God chastises and improves His children?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 3:06:21 GMT -5
You ask a question and then provide the answer? ? it's an answer but not the answer
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 3:07:03 GMT -5
Ok, what do you think needs to improve in the F&W Fellowship ? love, period
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 3:08:25 GMT -5
One way to improve the fellowship would be to go back to the evangilical way of telling the gospel. We don't seem to see that these days. I could count on my fingers and not need to take my boots off, the number of people (strangers) who have come to meetings and "professed". Review could you tell us what your experience is on this matter and whether you think that the church could do better in attracting more people to the fellowship? perhaps through street corner preaching or more door knocking or handing out leaflets. What ever it takes to tell people about Jesus who died for them. do you think God is leading this fellowship?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 3:10:38 GMT -5
Ok, what do you think needs to improve in the F&W Fellowship ? Start with myself. I appreciate this- "Lord cleanse this fellowship and start with me" The Pharisees in John 8 came to stone the women taken in adultery. By what Jesus said he helped them to 'throw the stones inwardly into their own sinful hearts'. He also showed that it is wrong to judge another a very horrible human trate
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 25, 2014 3:21:36 GMT -5
One way to improve the fellowship would be to go back to the evangilical way of telling the gospel. We don't seem to see that these days. I could count on my fingers and not need to take my boots off, the number of people (strangers) who have come to meetings and "professed". Review could you tell us what your experience is on this matter and whether you think that the church could do better in attracting more people to the fellowship? perhaps through street corner preaching or more door knocking or handing out leaflets. What ever it takes to tell people about Jesus who died for them. do you think God is leading this fellowship? Great question Virgo !!! "Is God leading this fellowship" ? Or are men leading this fellowship ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 25, 2014 3:26:25 GMT -5
Ok, what do you think needs to improve in the F&W Fellowship ? Start with myself. I appreciate this- "Lord cleanse this fellowship and start with me" The Pharisees in John 8 came to stone the women taken in adultery. By what Jesus said he helped them to 'throw the stones inwardly into their own sinful hearts'. "Lord cleanse this fellowship and start with me" Are these your words Review ?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 25, 2014 3:30:56 GMT -5
One way to improve the fellowship would be to go back to the evangilical way of telling the gospel. We don't seem to see that these days. I could count on my fingers and not need to take my boots off, the number of people (strangers) who have come to meetings and "professed". Review could you tell us what your experience is on this matter and whether you think that the church could do better in attracting more people to the fellowship? perhaps through street corner preaching or more door knocking or handing out leaflets. What ever it takes to tell people about Jesus who died for them. do you think God is leading this fellowship? Virgo, for a long time and I have thought long and hard about this and spent a lot of time praying and meditating about it and the answer is no. It, in my view is man centered and therin lies the problem.
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 3:35:44 GMT -5
Ok, what do you think needs to improve in the F&W Fellowship ? Start with myself. I appreciate this- "Lord cleanse this fellowship and start with me" The Pharisees in John 8 came to stone the women taken in adultery. By what Jesus said he helped them to 'throw the stones inwardly into their own sinful hearts'. You seem to be saying "Lord cleanse this fellowship and finish with me".
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 3:42:56 GMT -5
One way to improve the fellowship would be to go back to the evangilical way of telling the gospel. We don't seem to see that these days. I could count on my fingers and not need to take my boots off, the number of people (strangers) who have come to meetings and "professed". Review could you tell us what your experience is on this matter and whether you think that the church could do better in attracting more people to the fellowship? perhaps through street corner preaching or more door knocking or handing out leaflets. What ever it takes to tell people about Jesus who died for them. do you think God is leading this fellowship? That's what we need to make sure of Virgo.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 5:02:11 GMT -5
Start with myself. I appreciate this- "Lord cleanse this fellowship and start with me" The Pharisees in John 8 came to stone the women taken in adultery. By what Jesus said he helped them to 'throw the stones inwardly into their own sinful hearts'. "Lord cleanse this fellowship and start with me" Are these your words Review ? you know very well that they were the words he wrote, why do you ask such a thing?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 5:04:53 GMT -5
do you think God is leading this fellowship? Virgo, for a long time and I have thought long and hard about this and spent a lot of time praying and meditating about it and the answer is no. It, in my view is man centered and therin lies the problem. and who gave you the word no? and is it not now that you have condemned the people of the fellowship a thing of which gets complained about that we supposedly do?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 5:06:16 GMT -5
Start with myself. I appreciate this- "Lord cleanse this fellowship and start with me" The Pharisees in John 8 came to stone the women taken in adultery. By what Jesus said he helped them to 'throw the stones inwardly into their own sinful hearts'. You seem to be saying "Lord cleanse this fellowship and finish with me". that makes about as much sense as you walking backwards for the rest of your days
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 5:07:42 GMT -5
do you think God is leading this fellowship? That's what we need to make sure of Virgo. and how are you going to make sure?
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 6:06:30 GMT -5
That's what we need to make sure of Virgo. and how are you going to make sure? Look at the fruit.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 14:40:25 GMT -5
Maja Do you feel that if a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again? I’ll start with my 12-year-old daughter’s reaction to the question: should workers who have committed sexual immorality be allowed to remain in the work? How this came about is that she inquired about the notes I was scribbling as she was getting ready for school, and I gave her a version of the question that she can understand. Her reaction was visceral, with the tone of astonishment and exasperation, which only comes from one who is childlike, honest and doesn’t have vested interest in the matter. Since I had a pen and paper handy, I tried to write the answer down as she was speaking: “It is obvious!! They shouldn’t!!” Here I prompted her to say why it’s ‘obvious.’ “Because workers are representing the truth to people and if they do something wrong, they shouldn’t be able to represent God anymore, because they’ve been brought down!” Again, I asked her to explain how they have been brought down. “Because being in the work is higher up.” I asked her to explain what she means by that. “They are held up by others, and if they do that (sexual immorality), they are brought down and shouldn’t be allowed to represent God any more. If they are in the work, who is going to stop them? They go to people’s homes as respected guests, and being in the work hides their nature.” When an overseer asked us why it matters whether a CSA offender is a worker or a neighbor, I had the same feeling of astonishment and exasperation. When you are overwhelmed with the alarm-raising shock at the question, because we shouldn’t be even talking about this, because it is so wrong at every level, how do you even begin to answer? Now I’ll get back to answering the question: “Do you feel that if a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again?” The answer is: they should NOT have a place in the work, and here is why: 1) Because it’s a celibate ministry: No explanation needed, although it is discussed bellow. 2) Care for the soul: Is it good for the one who has engaged in sexual immorality to remain in the celibate ministry? In Matthew 19:10-12, Jesus seems to say that the power to chose celibacy is a gift. If a minister who has committed to a celibate life engages in sexual behavior, it clearly shows that he did not receive the gift of celibacy and should exit the celibate ministry. Otherwise, he is sweeping the problem under the rug, ignoring it, and continuing on the path of self-destruction. In 1 Corinthians 7:9, Paul advises that those who cannot exercise self-control should marry, “for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” Allowing a person who has proven to be unable to exercise self-control to remain in the celibate ministry discourages honest self-examination and sincere search for the solution to the problem. Let’s consider why an offender would be allowed to and even encouraged to remain in the celibate ministry? Is it because being in the ministry and the perpetuation of the ministry are more important than spiritual health of the offender? If on one hand being in the ministry is seen as the ultimate sacrifice and even one that ensures the greatest reward in heaven, and on the other hand participation in it is encouraged in direct disobedience to the above verses, what is the resulting message? Is it not that to sacrifice is better than to obey? Does this message benefit anyone now or in eternity? 3) true understanding of “falling into temptation:” From various conversations we’ve had, it is clear that when it comes to sexual sin committed by the workers, there is a tendency to treat it akin to someone slipping on a banana peel and falling. It is seen as an accident, even as something unavoidable given the nature of being in the celibate ministry. You are supposed to just pick yourself up, brush off your cloths and keep walking, pretending that nothing has happened. But no, sexual sin is not an accident. It is not something one just “fall into” out of the blue. Being in the celibate ministry doesn’t excuse it any more than it’s excusable for anyone else. We have heard one overseer say from the platform that it is OK to have “personal problems” as long as one doesn’t have “doctrinal” and “devotional” problems, pointing out David’s sin as an example. Doesn’t this statement point to the very lack of understanding of sin? I believe that personal, doctrinal and devotional problems go hand in hand and feed off of each other. Likewise, personal, doctrinal and devotional health cannot be nurtured independently from each another. Another Overseer found in the letter of Jude the justification to claim that ‘carnal sin’ is not as serious as ‘spiritual sin’ of rebellion against authority. There is a lot implied here, (especially considering the fact this was spoken at our local convention right after our letter to Overseers being sent out), but let’s just focus on the implication that carnal sin is not of spiritual nature. Is it really not? Surely Paul would not have advised Corinthians to remove from their midst a man for a lesser-ranking trespass of no spiritual significance (1 Corinthians 5)? Sexual sin starts in the heart and has to be nursed for a very long time before one’s conscience has been seared enough that he can act on it. It is only an outward expression, a symptom of a disease that has already taken foothold in one’s soul (Matthew 5:28). It points to a problem deeper than the physical act or verbal harassment. It is this problem, at its very root, that has to be honestly acknowledged and dealt with. Why should one with such a deep and fundamental, yet untreated problem remain in the ministry? Doesn’t this denial of deeper problems encourage festering of the same? Why is the ministry the right place for people with unresolved deep and fundamental problems? 4) lack of mechanism to track offenses: There seems to be no world-wide database for the purpose of tracking such offenses. Therefore, that an offense is said to be “the first one” is a mute point. It cannot be proven. If the workers only stayed in one field all their life, and if their first known offense was made public, there would be reasonable chance that no future offense would go without notice. As it is, offending workers are moved to another part of the country, another country or even another continent, and there is no offense record following him. Therefore, each time he can claim that this was “the first offense.” Lack of transparency in dealing with these issues further contributes to this concern. 5) avoiding the trap of double standards: There is one standard for the workers and another for the friends. When a young lady gets pregnant through pre-marital sex, her rebuke and punishment are public. Yet, when a worker is found in the same sin, his rebuke if any is in private and punishment nonexistent. Let me contrast that by giving an example from the church we are currently attending. When one of the ministers in that congregation was found to be having an adulterous relationship with someone’s wife, his sin was publicly announced, he was removed from the position in the ministry, and required to undergo counseling. However, if it had been a regular member who was found in adultery, his sin would not have been made public, because he is not in a place of authority and responsibility. 6) avoiding the trap of hypocrisy: Even as we heard at our last convention, it is claimed that the workers are the true ministry because “they live what they preach.” An Overseer contrasted that to “false preachers” who may have good sermons, but don’t “live it.” If a worker has shown that his life doesn’t reflect his words and calling, there should be honest cognizance of and willingness to correct anything that would indicate hypocrisy and the case of trying to remove a speck from another’s eye while ignoring the log in one’s own. 7) recognition of the problem that true (consensual) sexual immorality is not likely to be brought to light, while abuse is more likely, and that Overseers have not been able to distinguish between the two: Overseers have excused reported abuse as consensual relationship, or even as it being the victim’s fault. This is a clear obfuscation of the true nature of the offense, and it averts constructive resolution of the problem. The abuser is not presented with the option of choosing the path of healing and restoration, but only of ignoring the problem. He learns that he can get away with such behavior, which enables him to keep abusing more victims, while the victim that reported the abuse is brushed aside, re-victimized, and even vilified. 8) recognition of the problem that Overseers do not have a clear understanding of what constitutes sexually inappropriate behavior especially in cases of sexual harassment: reports of sexual harassment such as an attempt to kiss and touch, complimenting a woman’s looks, or an attempt to talk about another’s sexual life have been dismissed and rationalized as “normal behavior people engage in every day:” Overseers are either not able or not willing to understand that such behavior is only “normal” when it occurs within a consensual romantic relationship. Otherwise it falls under the category of sexual harassment. Regardless, neither sexual harassment nor consensual romantic relationship have a place in a celibate ministry, and Overseers apparently don’t realize this.
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