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Post by xna on Sept 14, 2014 19:58:59 GMT -5
Many websites about the 2x2 says they DO NOT believe in the concept of the "HOLY TRINITY".
So far I didn't find the 2x2 beliefs on the UNHOLY TRINITY; Satan / Beast from the sea / False Prophets aka anti-God / anti-Christ / anti-spirit.
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Post by Greg on Sept 14, 2014 23:01:43 GMT -5
No, Mary.... 70% of the workers and the friends (fixit, Bert, Virgo, Emy, Johndough) today are believing differently than of most of the early workers who had taught the Trinity (shamrock), the Divinity of Jesus, Godhead. I am guessing you are guessing on both accounts.
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Post by fixit on Sept 15, 2014 0:04:49 GMT -5
No, Mary.... 70% of the workers and the friends (fixit, Bert, Virgo, Emy, Johndough) today are believing differently than of most of the early workers who had taught the Trinity (shamrock), the Divinity of Jesus, Godhead. I think most of the early workers saw Trinitarian dogma as part of the religious confusion they wanted to leave behind.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 1:17:03 GMT -5
Because there is no set theology we must believe. Though Spirit-led, we may be at different places in the journey. There may come a day when both of us are at the same place. The unity comes because Nathan does not require me to be lock-step with him and I don't require him to be lock-step with me. The Spirit gives liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.Emy we may like to think this the case but this is what our resident worker recently posted professing.proboards.com/post/605003/quote/22349?page=5holdmyhand (here is another nice and instructive little parable/story) picture this:your family and friends go and watch you marching in a band. They commented afterwards "we had a cheerful time, holdmyhand was the best, happiest chap in the band. Everyone was out of step today except our holdmyhand. We have no confidence in the band's 'marching integrity'. Everyone is out of step except our holdmyhand. We have great love and respect for holdmyhand's marching."
I guess you 'have a great love and respect for those' (your family and friends?) who assure you that you are 'in step' and the ministry is 'out of step'.I am absolutely positive that your resident preacher would agree with emy just wondering, do you like your resident preacher? do you believe that your resident preacher is preaching truth?
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Post by holdmyhand on Sept 15, 2014 2:06:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure what he is saying, he seems very confused, how can you have a marching-band that's not lock-stepped ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 2:22:15 GMT -5
I'm not sure what he is saying, he seems very confused, how can you have a marching-band that's not lock-stepped ? just wondering, do you like your resident preacher? do you believe that your resident preacher is preaching truth? i presume you go and listen to your resident worker maybe last night? my questions were for today, not to do with marching bands
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Post by holdmyhand on Sept 15, 2014 3:59:15 GMT -5
You have a good fishing trip Virgo, I'm not taking the bait tonight
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Post by Greg on Sept 15, 2014 5:30:18 GMT -5
I think most of the early workers saw Trinitarian dogma as part of the religious confusion they wanted to leave behind. No, the early workers believed and taught the Trinity. They didn't leave it behind, because it wasn't confusion belief according to them.... It's the workers who came after them who felt it was Catholic Trinitarian dogma. THEY are incorrect and have taught the friends BAD teachings, information about the Trinity teaching. They have led the friends to a confusion mess! for the last 70 yrs.
Most of the workers and the friends TODAY! have little clues of what the Trinity doctrine is. They don't know who are the Godhead. They don't know about the Divinity of Jesus. They don't KNOW Jesus is God/the Son. 70% (my guess) of the workers today have stunned the friends growth. They keep the friend feeding on infant milk or baby food of the word about our Lord God Savior Jesus.The first workers were preaching for years. The second generation of workers would have been very much influenced by the first. Just guessing, but I think many of the first workers were around until the 1950's and the second generation (those starting after WWI) were around until and sometimes through the 1970's. Likely the trinity doctrine was rarely preached. Could be the anti-trinity stance was similar to what happened with the beginning of days. Both of those could have caught on with the friends - especially the second generation - and for apparent unity sake, the workers just let it be.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 15, 2014 6:04:37 GMT -5
HELP! Please, someone, anyone please HELP. I am clueless. I read the opening post of the thread and said to myself; “Oh, this might be interesting, this thread seems to be probing the question of how one goes beyond self and relates to a greater whole.” Such questions are of great interest to me. I posted some thoughts and went to bed. This morning I arise to find that the discussion continued for some time. I have read the thread top to bottom, twice actually. I don’t understand. Conviction is expressed in the thread. Passion is expressed in the thread. A detailed form of reasoning with multiple references to scriptural citations is presented in the thread. But what does it all mean? I am not trying to be clever, my question is very sincere. I am asking; • After all the discussion on the form and substance of “God” contained in this one thread, what is the intended take-away? • Should a reader or participant of this conversation, expect to feel edified by the conversation? • Is the intent to persuade one or more individuals of a particular interpretation? • Is the purpose to feel triumphant in having overcome interpretations different from one’s own? • Is the purpose to be a better Christian for having participated (actively or passively) in the discussion? • Is the purpose to be a better person for having participated in the conversation? • Is the actual nature of “God” different now, at this stage of the conversation, from what it was (or was not) yesterday at this same time of day? Again, I am truly not trying to be flippant of disrespectful. I am honestly trying to understand how the process of reducing the totality of all that is beyond comprehension to a collection of a few familial and familiar terms like Father, Son and Spirit and debating whether ‘all are one’ or ‘one is all’ relates to the simple question of what is the meaning and purpose of my life (if any)? I truly hope some sincere and brave souls will tackle one or more of these questions. Thanking you in advance. Hi Yknot, rather than writing an essay and boring everyone to tears and confusing the issue further, I have a few questions (can be pondered, considered, responded to or not, more just for thinking about). If you were an all-wise Creator God who wanted a relationship with his creation, how would you make yourself known to your creation? If you, as God, came to earth in the form of man, what would that look like? How would you prove you were God so that people listened to you and believed you? I guess most of the discussion on here (after Ettu's humorous but profound post - not kidding), is centered on the claim that Jesus was God. Was he? Why or why not? What proved he was? Or, what proved he wasn't? These are all questions worth exploring, but you're right, we won't achieve much by debating the issue ad nauseum on here. It would probably take personal and prolonged investigation to really get the answers we require. For me it all kind of has to come back to Jesus, because let's face it, he DID claim to be God. Was he telling the truth? Was he a madman? Obviously said enough dangerous things to get himself crucified. Perhaps others have claimed to be God. Perhaps the evidence needs to be weighed for them, too. For me, if a man who claimed to be God could walk on water, heal the sick, raise the dead and raise himself back to life - I better listen to what else he had to say. All of us have to come to some conclusion about him. We might choose to reject him, or believe in him. Those are the only 2 choices. I honestly think it's worth investigating this guy further for yourself.
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Post by xna on Sept 15, 2014 6:37:06 GMT -5
You should check out my 2x2 website... it talks about the Unholy Trinity.... The Beast, false prophets, and anti-Christ, anti-spirit. What's the URL?
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Post by xna on Sept 15, 2014 6:52:29 GMT -5
No, Mary.... 70% of the workers and the friends (fixit, Bert, Virgo, Emy, Johndough) today are believing differently than of most of the early workers who had taught the Trinity (shamrock), the Divinity of Jesus, Godhead. The idea of who Jesus was is very basic. If the workers are speaking to god, and god is speaking to them, they are of one body, one mind, one god, etc, then you wouldn't have a 70/30 split on a basic idea. The simple explanation is they are just making stuff up as the go.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 15, 2014 7:20:21 GMT -5
Xna
If the workers are hearing from God?
There would be evidence. They would hear they would act. They would be producing fruit. Good fruit. Fruit of repentence. Numbers would be added.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 15, 2014 7:25:13 GMT -5
Just letting y'all know, in case anyone was wondering... (where's the tongue in cheek emoticon options?) Actually, I'd like to run the following past y'all, as I've never heard a good, simple, succinct answer that doesn't just raise more questions. So here I am, born again, of the water and the spirit. God is my Father. Though a gentile, I have been grafted in. To deny that I am the Son of God would be to deny God is my Father, and you heard what Jesus said God his father would do to those who deny him. Now you might argue that there was only One Son Of God, meaning Jesus, but that would be to deny the one-ness of the trinity, meaning the the son is the same as God. I am a son. Plus there's the clear prayer of Jesus in the Gospel of John where he says that we are all one as he and God are one, as in one and the same. Then, there's the story from the very beginning of the bible with the fruit garden, where among others things resides the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A fruit that forums like this seem to indicate we all seek to eat. Which if we eat, according to the bible we will become God. Well, Adam and Eve ate, and we therefore forever after suffer(?) the consequences. (continual arguing I guess) Anyhow, I'm a little scared, do I declare I'm the son of God and one and the same with him? Some tell me it's not true... Maybe some of you would like to kill me if I get too loud and insistent about it... Maybe I should have the courage to Not put my tongue in cheek? The 1st to go into the lake of fire are.... the fearful!! Oh God... (which might even be some of you guys...?) I need some help with this one ... Ettu
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Post by bubbles on Sept 15, 2014 7:31:28 GMT -5
Ettu Dont be afraid. Yes you are one with him after your bornagain experience. The conscept is your spiritman is now in opposion to your flesh man. This is why we needed to hear the word and the word becomes first milk then meat to our bones. Our minds become washed with the word. Your spirit now has communion with the holy spirit the spirit of God.
Oneness, intimacy is bound by love. Love binds us to him. The love of the father. Have confidence in that.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 15, 2014 7:43:19 GMT -5
Just letting y'all know, in case anyone was wondering... (where's the tongue in cheek emoticon options?) Actually, I'd like to run the following past y'all, as I've never heard a good, simple, succinct answer that doesn't just raise more questions. So here I am, born again, of the water and the spirit. God is my Father. Though a gentile, I have been grafted in. To deny that I am the Son of God would be to deny God is my Father, and you heard what Jesus said God his father would do to those who deny him. Now you might argue that there was only One Son Of God, meaning Jesus, but that would be to deny the one-ness of the trinity, meaning the the son is the same as God. I am a son. Plus there's the clear prayer of Jesus in the Gospel of John where he says that we are all one as he and God are one, as in one and the same. Then, there's the story from the very beginning of the bible with the fruit garden, where among others things resides the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A fruit that forums like this seem to indicate we all seek to eat. Which if we eat, according to the bible we will become God. Well, Adam and Eve ate, and we therefore forever after suffer(?) the consequences. (continual arguing I guess) Anyhow, I'm a little scared, do I declare I'm the son of God and one and the same with him? Some tell me it's not true... Maybe some of you would like to kill me if I get too loud and insistent about it... Maybe I should have the courage to Not put my tongue in cheek? The 1st to go into the lake of fire are.... the fearful!! Oh God... (which might even be some of you guys...?) I need some help with this one ... Ettu Good luck with that concept. ;-) "Robert Ingersoll makes the following comments in Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67: Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two. So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity." www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/trinity.html
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Post by bubbles on Sept 15, 2014 7:44:07 GMT -5
Just letting y'all know, in case anyone was wondering... (where's the tongue in cheek emoticon options?) Actually, I'd like to run the following past y'all, as I've never heard a good, simple, succinct answer that doesn't just raise more questions. So here I am, born again, of the water and the spirit. God is my Father. Though a gentile, I have been grafted in. To deny that I am the Son of God would be to deny God is my Father, and you heard what Jesus said God his father would do to those who deny him. Now you might argue that there was only One Son Of God, meaning Jesus, but that would be to deny the one-ness of the trinity, meaning the the son is the same as God. I am a son. Plus there's the clear prayer of Jesus in the Gospel of John where he says that we are all one as he and God are one, as in one and the same. Then, there's the story from the very beginning of the bible with the fruit garden, where among others things resides the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A fruit that forums like this seem to indicate we all seek to eat. Which if we eat, according to the bible we will become God. Well, Adam and Eve ate, and we therefore forever after suffer(?) the consequences. (continual arguing I guess) Anyhow, I'm a little scared, do I declare I'm the son of God and one and the same with him? Some tell me it's not true... Maybe some of you would like to kill me if I get too loud and insistent about it... Maybe I should have the courage to Not put my tongue in cheek? The 1st to go into the lake of fire are.... the fearful!! Oh God... (which might even be some of you guys...?) I need some help with this one ... Ettu Good luck with that concept. ;-) "Robert Ingersoll makes the following comments in Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67: Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two. So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity." www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/trinity.html
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Post by bubbles on Sept 15, 2014 7:45:40 GMT -5
Father son holy spirit = one in work 3 personalities. One God. Omnipresent omnipotent omniessence
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Post by xna on Sept 15, 2014 8:53:48 GMT -5
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Post by placid-void on Sept 15, 2014 9:11:50 GMT -5
Hi Yknot, rather than writing an essay and boring everyone to tears and confusing the issue further, I have a few questions (can be pondered, considered, responded to or not, more just for thinking about). If you were an all-wise Creator God who wanted a relationship with his creation, how would you make yourself known to your creation? If you, as God, came to earth in the form of man, what would that look like? How would you prove you were God so that people listened to you and believed you? I guess most of the discussion on here (after Ettu's humorous but profound post - not kidding), is centered on the claim that Jesus was God. Was he? Why or why not? What proved he was? Or, what proved he wasn't? These are all questions worth exploring, but you're right, we won't achieve much by debating the issue ad nauseum on here. It would probably take personal and prolonged investigation to really get the answers we require. For me it all kind of has to come back to Jesus, because let's face it, he DID claim to be God. Was he telling the truth? Was he a madman? Obviously said enough dangerous things to get himself crucified. Perhaps others have claimed to be God. Perhaps the evidence needs to be weighed for them, too. For me, if a man who claimed to be God could walk on water, heal the sick, raise the dead and raise himself back to life - I better listen to what else he had to say. All of us have to come to some conclusion about him. We might choose to reject him, or believe in him. Those are the only 2 choices. I honestly think it's worth investigating this guy further for yourself. Elizabethcoleman, I really like the way you have positioned the questions. Indeed, the ‘right’ thing to do is to ponder these questions prior to responding. I am too impulsive. I will respond with first impressions and then go away and ponder. Thanks for your response, it has given an ol’ man’s brain something to conjure for awhile. I shan’t ponder your first two questions (about God wanting a relationship and God coming to earth) because I profess a belief that what might be called “God” is beyond comprehension so it would be presumptuous and inappropriate for me to try to address either of your first two questions. I am intrigued, however, by the phrase “came to earth”. That is not a phrase I would typically use in a conversation about the essence of being that transcends 'consciousness of self'. My conception of what might be considered “God” is that it permeates all. I tend to shy away from the “up there”, “here” and “down there” formulation of existence with its ‘arbitrary’ boundaries. My conception is more along the lines of an integrated whole in which all are a part. I am also intrigued by your question: “How would you prove you were God so that people listened to you and believed you?” I experience “oddness” when I read that question. The question seems to imply a need for proof. Why, I wonder? Why does one ‘need’ a proof for the existence/nonexistence of God? My consciousness is bounded by two points. I am born, I die. The veils that separate my consciousness from awareness prior to birth and after death are completely impenetrable. All I have to work with are experiences between those two points. I may want, need, demand, accept or make-up explanations for what happens beyond those two veils but when I am honest with myself I realize that those made-up explanations have zero meaning. The only thing that can possibly be meaningful (to me) is how I use the time between the two veils. From first breath, every experience (nipple, gentle touch, warmth, smile, giggle) have been part of a larger whole. Even now with Carl Sagan and then Neil deGrasse Tyson’s description of the universe, the fundamental awareness is ‘part of a larger whole’. The consequence of that awareness (for me) is not a requirement for proof of anything (my consciousness stipulates as true that I am part of something larger than myself). Rather, my consciousness seeks guidance (not proof) toward an understanding of my purpose (place, role, meaning) in the whole of which I am, by definition, a part. One of the things that makes sense to me are the teachings of a fellow named Jesus who said “Love your neighbor” (others have said similar things). This chap has also been called Jesus Christ so as a follower of those teachings I can reasonably be considered a Christian. When I am seeking fellowship in this pursuit I will tend to search out other Christians (you know, the same tribe). If I am seeking discussion and debate (as a tool toward personal growth and development – broadening my horizons of understanding) I will search out others of differing beliefs (you know, visit TMB). Enough for now.
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Post by Annan on Sept 15, 2014 10:13:56 GMT -5
Because of the title of the thread.
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Post by emy on Sept 15, 2014 15:16:59 GMT -5
This is the direct opposite to what the workers have always preached regarding unity. They say they have the same spirit the world over. There is set theology that you must believe and you do not need me to spell these out. Your post is opposite to all that the workers teach. They must have the same mind, etc. and they say that those in the world do not have unity because of their different beliefs. The workers want you in step with them. And there is fixit who does not believe what Nathan does. Nathan is out of step with what the 2x2s teach. Interesting that those who believe different from what the workers have get thrown out of meetings while you say it is not a problem. Basic things we "must believe." : Jesus is real; the Son of God; died to cleanse us from sin; was resurrected. The Holy Spirit has been sent and lives in the lives of those who believe (born again of the Spirit); he guides, teaches and comforts - for starters . There is one God and He requires that we believe, actively, in Jesus to obtain eternal life. Believing actively means that we should know what Jesus taught and incorporate it in our lives. Jesus taught his apostles and we should understand that what they knew they shared with the early church. Interesting that those who believe different from what the workers have get thrown out of meetings while you say it is not a problem.
I would say it isn't a problem unless someone chooses to make it a problem, maybe by thinking they have more wisdom from God than the next person. Speaking up and speaking out vociferously, e.g. in meetings, are two different things. It's good to keep in mind 1 Cor. 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order. (another version: Be courteous and considerate in everything.)
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Post by emy on Sept 15, 2014 15:22:16 GMT -5
Holdmyhand, By Emy we may like to think this the case but this is what our resident worker recently posted I think you meant "resident worker" on TMB, right? I think Virgo may think you meant your local worker?
BTW, are you sure there is a worker who posts regularly on TMB?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 1:55:23 GMT -5
You have a good fishing trip Virgo, I'm not taking the bait tonight so by your non answer i can take that you don't like and you don't believe that your resident worker preaches truth? you seem to be more confused that what you think review500 is
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Post by holdmyhand on Sept 16, 2014 2:37:37 GMT -5
You have a good fishing trip Virgo, I'm not taking the bait tonight so by your non answer i can take that you don't like and you don't believe that your resident worker preaches truth? you seem to be more confused that what you think review500 is Ok lets run through it again Review005: posts “a nice and instructive little parable/story” of the fellowship as a marching band I said: I don’t agree with that analogy and stated why, Uniformity is not unity Emy: posts in another thread that she doesn’t believe we should all be lock-step Virgo: posts he is absolutely positive Review005 would agree with Emy Vietnam thread: tells us the Canadians enforced the Vietnamese friends to be lock-step with Canadian ways, meeting times, standing to pray, clothing etc Review005: has not confirmed or denied Virgo is his spokesman or retracted his “ nice and instructive little parable/story” Could Review005 please tell us where he stands thanks
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Post by holdmyhand on Sept 16, 2014 2:38:06 GMT -5
You have a good fishing trip Virgo, I'm not taking the bait tonight so by your non answer i can take that you don't like and you don't believe that your resident worker preaches truth? you seem to be more confused that what you think review500 is Ok lets run through it again Review005: posts “a nice and instructive little parable/story” of the fellowship as a marching band I said: I don’t agree with that analogy and stated why, Uniformity is not unity Emy: posts in another thread that she doesn’t believe we should all be lock-step Virgo: posts he is absolutely positive Review005 would agree with Emy Vietnam thread: tells us the Canadians enforced the Vietnamese friends to be lock-step with Canadian ways, meeting times, standing to pray, clothing etc Review005: has not confirmed or denied Virgo is his spokesman or retracted his “ nice and instructive little parable/story” Could Review005 please tell us where he stands thanks
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Post by holdmyhand on Sept 16, 2014 2:51:59 GMT -5
Holdmyhand, By Emy we may like to think this the case but this is what our resident worker recently posted I think you meant "resident worker" on TMB, right? I think Virgo may think you meant your local worker? BTW, are you sure there is a worker who posts regularly on TMB? Yes Emy the resident worker on TMB, He has breaks and is now posting again, I understand he has posted under least 5 different names over the years
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Post by Mary on Sept 16, 2014 3:00:08 GMT -5
Holdmyhand, By Emy we may like to think this the case but this is what our resident worker recently posted I think you meant "resident worker" on TMB, right? I think Virgo may think you meant your local worker? BTW, are you sure there is a worker who posts regularly on TMB? Yes from time to time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 3:48:49 GMT -5
so by your non answer i can take that you don't like and you don't believe that your resident worker preaches truth? you seem to be more confused that what you think review500 is Ok lets run through it again Review005: posts “a nice and instructive little parable/story” of the fellowship as a marching band I said: I don’t agree with that analogy and stated why, Uniformity is not unity Emy: posts in another thread that she doesn’t believe we should all be lock-step Virgo: posts he is absolutely positive Review005 would agree with Emy Vietnam thread: tells us the Canadians enforced the Vietnamese friends to be lock-step with Canadian ways, meeting times, standing to pray, clothing etc Review005: has not confirmed or denied Virgo is his spokesman or retracted his “ nice and instructive little parable/story” Could Review005 please tell us where he stands thanks what on earth has the Vietnam thread go to do with what i asked or stated? how on earth you get the idea that i am Review005s spokesman? i know that review005 is very capable of comunicating with others by their self
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