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Post by mdm on Sept 15, 2014 22:02:48 GMT -5
Perhaps the main reason why we left was not that we didn't receive these assurances, but that the friends in our field didn't express openly that they need the same assurances. Yes, there were some that told us in private that they agree with some of the things we asked for, but there was no one who would say openly and before all that they agreed. A few even let us know that they did not want to hear from us about the matter again. We realized that in their church culture it is not appropriate to discuss problems openly, only in secret, and that it is not appropriate to ask anything of the ministry. We also realized that we cannot be part of that culture and that it was best for all of us if we left the meetings - for our local friends, so we are not disturbing their peace any more, and for us, so we can reclaim ours. The last question I can only answer by PM.This seems to be following a pattern. "Discussing a problem openly" doesn't mean setting yourself up for legal issues by posting names online. "Discussing a problem openly" refers to discussing church issues openly among church members. To be precise, we shared our concerns with close friends, with local workers, with overseers, and when that failed to produce results, with all the elders in our field, and then with all the friends in our field. This was our failed attempt to start an open discussion of issues that concerned us.
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Post by mdm on Sept 15, 2014 22:32:13 GMT -5
In case you can't guess why, I'll give you a hint: it's church matters that are being discussed. As much as it may sound strange to you, for Christians, all issues pertaining to human relationships are primarily of spiritual nature. And applying spiritual solutions to secular matters never ends well. "Don't report child abusers to the authorities - we will deal with it internally. God will provide a solution. After all, the bible says we have to forgive others. He will repent, say he is sorry, and all will be well." How long are people going to go down this road before it is clear that it doesn't work? I see what you mean, but I don't believe that in the church context even CSA is purely a secular or legal issue. (Nevermind that I don't see the above quote as a spiritually sound advise.) Do you think that just because something needs to be reported to authorities and processed through legal system, it ceases to be a spiritual issue as well?
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Post by emy on Sept 15, 2014 23:33:42 GMT -5
Emy, I apologize if it sounded as if I was implying that you yourself would be comfortable with such things in the fellowship. I was just talking about how things are in general, based on what I've found out not just here on TMB but most importantly from people I know. I spent 15 years in the fellowship knowing very little about controversies. I heard some things, but didn't think that problems were that common, so didn't pay much attention. However, when a year ago we broached the subjected with a worker we know well, he said: "You are the last ones to find out (about these issues) because you are pure." He himself is very grieved about these things, but unable to speak out for fear of losing his place in the ministry. We've had some other friends and workers open up to us as well, those who are grieved, but unable to speak openly because they fear repercussions. Yes, there are those who know about problems, but will only talk about it in the safety of privacy and secrecy. You are right about me stating something different as the reason why we left. It is impossible for me to summarize the reason in one simple sentence, so I'll probably give it a different slant each time. There are so many aspects to this. No, we did not ask that no potential abusers/immoral would be sent to our home, but that no known abusers/immoral be sent to our home, or anyone else's. To be precise, here are the (abbreviated) assurances we asked for in our letter to Overseers: 1) that NO known child molester is allowed to enter or remain in the work; 2) that all senior workers will work to effect a change in the fellowship culture for the purpose of creating a safer environment for children; 3) that in cases of alleged CSA, parents of victims, adult victims, and other concerned individuals will be encouraged to report allegations to authorities, and that workers will not try to judge whether an allegation is true or false, but will allow trained and authorized professionals to investigate; 4) that if a known child molester is placed in a meeting, people in the meeting will be notified, so that they can exercise due vigilance with their children; 5) that NO known child molester will be allowed to attend conventions; 6) that NO ONE who has committed sexual immorality (regardless of whether it’s consensual or abusive in nature) is allowed to remain in the work; 7) that there will be ONE standard on how to deal with those who have committed sins of sexual immorality regardless of their place and position in the church, and regardless of the presence or lack of an outward evidence of their sin; 8) that those who have abused the trust given to them because of their place in the ministry through sexual immorality and abuse will not be eased out of work in a secretive way, but will be openly rebuked before the church; Is this too much to ask for? I don't think it's too much to ask these things from church leadership that claims to be the true ministry, the bearers of the true Gospel, who preach that all other churches are false, where ministers live in people's homes and are revered even more than preachers in other churches. Besides, most other churches have guidelines and practices that fall along these lines in whatever way they may apply to their particular church. We have also asked specifically about the issue of adult abuse/immorality in another letter that we sent to certain overseers, regarding a particular case. Here we asked, and later in person, can we have assurance that the immoral and abusers will be removed from the work, and we did not receive an answer. Of course, we know how things are handled now, but we were truly hoping that we could explain to these overseers why such things are unacceptable and persuade them to change. Naive, I know. Perhaps the main reason why we left was not that we didn't receive these assurances, but that the friends in our field didn't express openly that they need the same assurances. Yes, there were some that told us in private that they agree with some of the things we asked for, but there was no one who would say openly and before all that they agreed. A few even let us know that they did not want to hear from us about the matter again. We realized that in their church culture it is not appropriate to discuss problems openly, only in secret, and that it is not appropriate to ask anything of the ministry. We also realized that we cannot be part of that culture and that it was best for all of us if we left the meetings - for our local friends, so we are not disturbing their peace any more, and for us, so we can reclaim ours. The last question I can only answer by PM. Thank you for your answer. I find your requests reasonable.
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Post by fixit on Sept 15, 2014 23:48:14 GMT -5
Perhaps the main reason why we left was not that we didn't receive these assurances, but that the friends in our field didn't express openly that they need the same assurances. Yes, there were some that told us in private that they agree with some of the things we asked for, but there was no one who would say openly and before all that they agreed. A few even let us know that they did not want to hear from us about the matter again. We realized that in their church culture it is not appropriate to discuss problems openly, only in secret, and that it is not appropriate to ask anything of the ministry. We also realized that we cannot be part of that culture and that it was best for all of us if we left the meetings - for our local friends, so we are not disturbing their peace any more, and for us, so we can reclaim ours. Thanks for this Maja. It's a paragraph that goes a long way to explaining why the church is dying.
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Post by rational on Sept 16, 2014 1:51:07 GMT -5
And applying spiritual solutions to secular matters never ends well. "Don't report child abusers to the authorities - we will deal with it internally. God will provide a solution. After all, the bible says we have to forgive others. He will repent, say he is sorry, and all will be well." How long are people going to go down this road before it is clear that it doesn't work? I see what you mean, but I don't believe that in the church context even CSA is purely a secular or legal issue. (Nevermind that I don't see the above quote as a spiritually sound advise.) Do you think that just because something needs to be reported to authorities and processed through legal system, it ceases to be a spiritual issue as well? I believe that casting things as spiritual issues is an attempt of the believers of one 'system' to try to gain an advantage over the believers of a different 'system'. I see it as a way to manipulate others to get what you want. "The bible says to forgive so rather than actually taking action that will bring results we will just forgive the criminal. After all, they have apologized." It could be an ethical issue. It could be discussed in terms of morality. Most people would have a difficult time explaining the meaning of 'spiritual' as it is used in 'spiritual issue'. I have no doubt that there are those who have engaged in sexual activities that some would consider immoral by 'selling' the activity as a 'spiritual' activity to get consent.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 16, 2014 6:06:19 GMT -5
This seems to be following a pattern. "Discussing a problem openly" doesn't mean setting yourself up for legal issues by posting names online. "Discussing a problem openly" refers to discussing church issues openly among church members. To be precise, we shared our concerns with close friends, with local workers, with overseers, and when that failed to produce results, with all the elders in our field, and then with all the friends in our field. This was our failed attempt to start an open discussion of issues that concerned us.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 16, 2014 6:13:46 GMT -5
Maja
You did what is biblically required.
Many churches have been faced with this issue of going to elders if not satisfied taking it to the pastor/overseer and if no result taking it to the people. Leaders should be mature enough to try to resolve conflict through communication. I see you leaving as shaking the dust off your feet like many of us had too and moving forward into the next season of your life.
There is something compelling when a man /woman of god acknowledges wrong doing and repents publicly to the congregation. This way healing can begin
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Post by rational on Sept 16, 2014 9:12:57 GMT -5
Maja You did what is biblically required. Many churches have been faced with this issue of going to elders if not satisfied taking it to the pastor/overseer and if no result taking it to the people. Leaders should be mature enough to try to resolve conflict through communication. I see you leaving as shaking the dust off your feet like many of us had too and moving forward into the next season of your life. There is something compelling when a man /woman of god acknowledges wrong doing and repents publicly to the congregation. This way healing can begin Do you believe this works with CSA?
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Post by mdm on Sept 16, 2014 10:11:24 GMT -5
Perhaps the main reason why we left was not that we didn't receive these assurances, but that the friends in our field didn't express openly that they need the same assurances. Yes, there were some that told us in private that they agree with some of the things we asked for, but there was no one who would say openly and before all that they agreed. A few even let us know that they did not want to hear from us about the matter again. We realized that in their church culture it is not appropriate to discuss problems openly, only in secret, and that it is not appropriate to ask anything of the ministry. We also realized that we cannot be part of that culture and that it was best for all of us if we left the meetings - for our local friends, so we are not disturbing their peace any more, and for us, so we can reclaim ours. Thanks for this Maja. It's a paragraph that goes a long way to explaining why the church is dying. Lack of open, honest communication kills relationships, doesn't it...
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Post by mdm on Sept 16, 2014 10:25:25 GMT -5
I see what you mean, but I don't believe that in the church context even CSA is purely a secular or legal issue. (Nevermind that I don't see the above quote as a spiritually sound advise.) Do you think that just because something needs to be reported to authorities and processed through legal system, it ceases to be a spiritual issue as well? I believe that casting things as spiritual issues is an attempt of the believers of one 'system' to try to gain an advantage over the believers of a different 'system'. I see it as a way to manipulate others to get what you want. "The bible says to forgive so rather than actually taking action that will bring results we will just forgive the criminal. After all, they have apologized." It could be an ethical issue. It could be discussed in terms of morality. Most people would have a difficult time explaining the meaning of 'spiritual' as it is used in 'spiritual issue'. I have no doubt that there are those who have engaged in sexual activities that some would consider immoral by 'selling' the activity as a 'spiritual' activity to get consent. Everything and anything can be abused, misused, misrepresented, misinterpreted. That something has been treated in such a way, doesn't negate it or devalue it. I also see the traditional 2x2 approach to dealing with CSA as a way to manipulate others. But I don't see it as misrepresenting a secular issue as a spiritual issue, but as spiritual dishonesty and spiritual abuse. I accept that you as a non-believer would have a problem with these things being seen as a primarily spiritual issue (along with other issues). But it is a fact that Christians see everything as a spiritual issue, and you are not going to change that, regardless of how much you try You say that "most people would have a difficult time explaining the meaning of 'spiritual' as it is used in 'spiritual issue'." I agree. If this was a secular forum, nobody would be approaching it from the spiritual perspective.But this is a 2x2 forum, so we don't fall into that category - everyone understands what we are talking about even if they don't agree with it. OK, I've tried to explain. Now I'll let you have the last word
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Post by bubbles on Sept 16, 2014 10:38:17 GMT -5
Maja You did what is biblically required. Many churches have been faced with this issue of going to elders if not satisfied taking it to the pastor/overseer and if no result taking it to the people. Leaders should be mature enough to try to resolve conflict through communication. I see you leaving as shaking the dust off your feet like many of us had too and moving forward into the next season of your life. There is something compelling when a man /woman of god acknowledges wrong doing and repents publicly to the congregation. This way healing can begin Do you believe this works with CSA?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 16, 2014 10:44:18 GMT -5
I havent heard of this with CSA. I have over money and adultry. People in churches get hurt over this kind of thing because they look up to their leaders.
CSA. The police should be first point of contact. The church has the right to be told regardless of who the abuser is. To protect other children and give parents the choice to leave.
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Post by rational on Sept 16, 2014 10:59:25 GMT -5
Everything and anything can be abused, misused, misrepresented, misinterpreted. That something has been treated in such a way, doesn't negate it or devalue it. I was trying to find out what it was so the value would be clear. It is a secular issue. It is a criminal issue. Can a physical act be spiritual? I have no desire to try to change anyone. I was asking for an explanation - how you would define the word you use. In your sentence: But I don't see it as misrepresenting a secular issue as a __________ issue, but as ___________ dishonesty and ________ abuse.How would you fill in the blanks with alternative word(s). Everyone understands but it cannot be explained? Makes having a discussion difficult. If this were a secular board (following your lead) it would need to be defined. I like this tact! If it was effective you would have had the last word and someone might read the post and think you actually tried to explain spirituality and that everyone understands. You don't have to respond but maybe someone else will step up and explain how child sexual abuse is a spiritual issue.
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Post by mdm on Sept 16, 2014 11:12:33 GMT -5
Maja You did what is biblically required. Many churches have been faced with this issue of going to elders if not satisfied taking it to the pastor/overseer and if no result taking it to the people. Leaders should be mature enough to try to resolve conflict through communication. I see you leaving as shaking the dust off your feet like many of us had too and moving forward into the next season of your life. There is something compelling when a man /woman of god acknowledges wrong doing and repents publicly to the congregation. This way healing can begin Did you know that confession is actually discouraged in the 2x2 church? Last year, a high-ranking overseer told us explicitly that "we should not confess our sins to one another." When a church leader has trampled on the trust and place given him/her by the church, public confession is necessary. It's not just their healing that is at stake, but also whether they can they be trusted again to lead. A worker has told me that some who have committed immorality have not healed because they were told that what they did can happen to anyone and that they are OK. Avoidance of facing and dealing with problems is not healthy psychologically, spiritually, whatever you wanna call it. Needles to say, there is something more than bizarre when a CSA offender is continued to be sent to people's homes and when those who committed sexual immorality are encouraged and allowed to continue on in the celibate ministry. If there was public confession, who would want these people in their homes or in place of church leadership? They would actually have to start dealing with issues, not just sweep them under the rug!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 11:13:49 GMT -5
Everything and anything can be abused, misused, misrepresented, misinterpreted. That something has been treated in such a way, doesn't negate it or devalue it. I was trying to find out what it was so the value would be clear. It is a secular issue. It is a criminal issue. Can a physical act be spiritual? I have no desire to try to change anyone. I was asking for an explanation - how you would define the word you use. In your sentence: But I don't see it as misrepresenting a secular issue as a __________ issue, but as ___________ dishonesty and ________ abuse.How would you fill in the blanks with alternative word(s). Everyone understands but it cannot be explained? Makes having a discussion difficult. If this were a secular board (following your lead) it would need to be defined. I like this tact! If it was effective you would have had the last word and someone might read the post and think you actually tried to explain spirituality and that everyone understands. You don't have to respond but maybe someone else will step up and explain how child sexual abuse is a spiritual issue. i think it would be better to say that a "physical act can have spiritual consequences"...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 11:24:23 GMT -5
Maja You did what is biblically required. Many churches have been faced with this issue of going to elders if not satisfied taking it to the pastor/overseer and if no result taking it to the people. Leaders should be mature enough to try to resolve conflict through communication. I see you leaving as shaking the dust off your feet like many of us had too and moving forward into the next season of your life. There is something compelling when a man /woman of god acknowledges wrong doing and repents publicly to the congregation. This way healing can begin Did you know that confession is actually discouraged in the 2x2 church? Last year, a high-ranking overseer told us explicitly that "we should not confess our sins to one another." When a church leader has trampled on the trust and place given him/her by the church, public confession is necessary. It's not just their healing that is at stake, but also whether they can they be trusted again to lead. A worker has told me that some who have committed immorality have not healed because they were told that what they did can happen to anyone and that they are OK. Avoidance of facing and dealing with problems is not healthy psychologically, spiritually, whatever you wanna call it. Needles to say, there is something more than bizarre when a CSA offender is continued to be sent to people's homes and when those who committed sexual immorality are encouraged and allowed to continue on in the celibate ministry. If there was public confession, who would want these people in their homes or in place of church leadership? They would actually have to start dealing with issues, not just sweep them under the rug! i can't find the verse but i think there is something about confessing your sin to God and your faults to men, faults are different than sins such as i can't balance my check book very well, i am a poor driver, i can't remember things very well..etc although confession can be a healing thing if someone is willing and able to do so...
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Post by mdm on Sept 16, 2014 11:30:58 GMT -5
Everything and anything can be abused, misused, misrepresented, misinterpreted. That something has been treated in such a way, doesn't negate it or devalue it. I was trying to find out what it was so the value would be clear. It is a secular issue. It is a criminal issue. Can a physical act be spiritual? I have no desire to try to change anyone. I was asking for an explanation - how you would define the word you use. In your sentence: But I don't see it as misrepresenting a secular issue as a __________ issue, but as ___________ dishonesty and ________ abuse.How would you fill in the blanks with alternative word(s). Everyone understands but it cannot be explained? Makes having a discussion difficult. If this were a secular board (following your lead) it would need to be defined. I like this tact! If it was effective you would have had the last word and someone might read the post and think you actually tried to explain spirituality and that everyone understands. You don't have to respond but maybe someone else will step up and explain how child sexual abuse is a spiritual issue. I am sorry, I didn't mean to get out of explaining anything - I didn't realize you expected an explanation. I just wanted to say that I've talked enough and that I accept that you don't agree, and that it's ok. I am not sure (again) you are being serious anyway. This is not a secular board, everyone has at least belonged to a church a good part of their life and everyone know why a church would look at these issues through the spiritual lense. But (again), I'll indulge you in your game and try to answer why I think that these things, and even a physical act can have a spiritual value. How do I define "spiritual"? If it affects souls, it has a spiritual value. If it affects souls (your own, somebody elses) in a positive way, it has a positive spiritual value. If it affects souls in a negative way, it has a negative spiritual value. Does that answer the question?
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Post by mdm on Sept 16, 2014 11:37:01 GMT -5
Did you know that confession is actually discouraged in the 2x2 church? Last year, a high-ranking overseer told us explicitly that "we should not confess our sins to one another." When a church leader has trampled on the trust and place given him/her by the church, public confession is necessary. It's not just their healing that is at stake, but also whether they can they be trusted again to lead. A worker has told me that some who have committed immorality have not healed because they were told that what they did can happen to anyone and that they are OK. Avoidance of facing and dealing with problems is not healthy psychologically, spiritually, whatever you wanna call it. Needles to say, there is something more than bizarre when a CSA offender is continued to be sent to people's homes and when those who committed sexual immorality are encouraged and allowed to continue on in the celibate ministry. If there was public confession, who would want these people in their homes or in place of church leadership? They would actually have to start dealing with issues, not just sweep them under the rug! i can't find the verse but i think there is something about confessing your sin to God and your faults to men, faults are different than sins such as i can't balance my check book very well, i am a poor driver, i can't remember things very well..etc although confession can be a healing thing if someone is willing and able to do so... How about: Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. James 5:16Yes, there is more that is mentioned here than just confession. The church needs to provide an environment where it is safe to confess and where prayer and encouragement will be offered. It should be a joint effort, done in love and compassion. But you can't have compassion without confession - which is what overseers' mantra has been: just have compassion, just forgive, but don't expect anybody to confess anything...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 11:47:12 GMT -5
i can't find the verse but i think there is something about confessing your sin to God and your faults to men, faults are different than sins such as i can't balance my check book very well, i am a poor driver, i can't remember things very well..etc although confession can be a healing thing if someone is willing and able to do so... How about: Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. James 5:16Yes, there is more that is mentioned here than just confession. The church needs to provide an environment where it is safe to confess and where prayer and encouragement will be offered. It should be a joint effort, done in love and compassion. But you can't have compassion without confession - which is what overseers' mantra has been: just have compassion, just forgive, but don't expect anybody to confess anything... which version are you using the NIV or the NKJV or some other? the KJV says faults...
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Post by rational on Sept 16, 2014 12:23:37 GMT -5
If there was public confession, who would want these people in their homes or in place of church leadership? It's an epiphany!
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Post by rational on Sept 16, 2014 12:25:57 GMT -5
i think it would be better to say that a "physical act can have spiritual consequences"... Can you explain or perhaps provide an example?
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Post by rational on Sept 16, 2014 12:38:50 GMT -5
I am sorry, I didn't mean to get out of explaining anything - I didn't realize you expected an explanation. I just wanted to say that I've talked enough and that I accept that you don't agree, and that it's ok. Not agreeing and not understanding are two different things. I am serious. I keep hearing metaphors, similes, and euphemisms but never a clear explanation. What is a spiritual lens? I can read what you wrote but how does a physical act effect the soul? In the bible it is strongky implied that people can harm the physical body but not the soul. I am assuming you do not include psychological damage to be damage to the soul. Or is that assumption incorrect? What would be a positive experience regarding the soul? I have heard people claim that tragedy can provide people with a positive spiritual experience.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 16, 2014 13:44:15 GMT -5
Maja You did what is biblically required. Many churches have been faced with this issue of going to elders if not satisfied taking it to the pastor/overseer and if no result taking it to the people. Leaders should be mature enough to try to resolve conflict through communication. I see you leaving as shaking the dust off your feet like many of us had too and moving forward into the next season of your life. There is something compelling when a man /woman of god acknowledges wrong doing and repents publicly to the congregation. This way healing can begin Did you know that confession is actually discouraged in the 2x2 church? Last year, a high-ranking overseer told us explicitly that "we should not confess our sins to one another." When a church leader has trampled on the trust and place given him/her by the church, public confession is necessary. It's not just their healing that is at stake, but also whether they can they be trusted again to lead. A worker has told me that some who have committed immorality have not healed because they were told that what they did can happen to anyone and that they are OK. Avoidance of facing and dealing with problems is not healthy psychologically, spiritually, whatever you wanna call it. Needles to say, there is something more than bizarre when a CSA offender is continued to be sent to people's homes and when those who committed sexual immorality are encouraged and allowed to continue on in the celibate ministry. If there was public confession, who would want these people in their homes or in place of church leadership? They would actually have to start dealing with issues, not just sweep them under the rug!
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Post by bubbles on Sept 16, 2014 13:52:14 GMT -5
Maja Re :confession and repentance is biblical. Is that overseer saved? His teaching goes against the teaching of christ. Confession and repentance breaks strongholds over peoples lives.
From what you say it looks like the person doesnt understand how immorality works. How the gateways of our eyes hands ears can influence what we say and do. Most of these problems begin in the mind. Eg:if you have a regular diet of porn you are more likely to be tempted to sexually abuse and the younger you start it can be a powerful denominator in your life. There was a serial killer in the USA forget his name that revealed this.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 13:55:10 GMT -5
i think it would be better to say that a "physical act can have spiritual consequences"... Can you explain or perhaps provide an example? IF your a believer... murder 1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. a clear spiritual consequence for the act of murder baring true repentence...
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Post by fixit on Sept 16, 2014 14:10:57 GMT -5
You don't have to respond but maybe someone else will step up and explain how child sexual abuse is a spiritual issue. I won't try to define "spiritual", but I'd like to point out that the church is taught submission to religious hierarchy. This leads to a lack of accountability and way too much trust, which provides an environment for CSA to thrive. From Dale Shultz:
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Post by rational on Sept 16, 2014 15:07:58 GMT -5
Can you explain or perhaps provide an example? IF your a believer... murder 1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. a clear spiritual consequence for the act of murder baring true repentence... I see. Good example. So something that is negative spiritually is something that lessens your chances of gaining eternal life? Of course, this verse is not actually talking about murder but hating another. Personally, I would much rather have someone hate me than murder me!
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Post by rational on Sept 16, 2014 15:10:47 GMT -5
You don't have to respond but maybe someone else will step up and explain how child sexual abuse is a spiritual issue. I won't try to define "spiritual", but I'd like to point out that the church is taught submission to religious hierarchy. This leads to a lack of accountability and way too much trust, which provides an environment for CSA to thrive. I am not sure the word thrive is a good choice. I have never seen any evidence that there is any more child sexual abuse in the F&W, or in any religion, than there is in the general population.
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