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Post by snow on Aug 10, 2014 18:08:58 GMT -5
STR and Nathan, I would have to say that many of the Protestant churches do believe in the Trinity doctrine. However, I don't think the Trinity doctrine has ever been a majority belief in the F&W's. I also can't be sure from what I have read of the early days of the church that the founders believed in the Trinity doctrine. But I know from recent reading that the Waldenses believed in the Trinity and their founder and his followers were also part of the Catholic Church for some time after Waldo started preaching what the Catholic church labelled as heretical. He presented his preaching to the Pope but was denied his 'blessing'. At first they praised Waldo for not preaching like the heretical Cathars, but he soon got labelled as a heretic too. So, I can't see how the Waldenses could be a successive link to the F&W's. Their doctrine was used as the first Reformist Christian thought and Calvinists took it. The Anabaptists seem to also want to claim the Waldenses as theirs. But it's not looking like they went back to the Shores of Galilee because Waldo clearly admitted it was him that founded that group and some of the offshoots of that group.
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Post by snow on Aug 10, 2014 19:24:07 GMT -5
STR and Nathan, I would have to say that many of the Protestant churches do believe in the Trinity doctrine. However, I don't think the Trinity doctrine has ever been a majority belief in the F&W's. I also can't be sure from what I have read of the early days of the church that the founders believed in the Trinity doctrine. But I know from recent reading that the Waldenses believed in the Trinity and their founder and his followers were also part of the Catholic Church for some time after Waldo started preaching what the Catholic church labelled as heretical. He presented his preaching to the Pope but was denied his 'blessing'. At first they praised Waldo for not preaching like the heretical Cathars, but he soon got labelled as a heretic too. So, I can't see how the Waldenses could be a successive link to the F&W's. Their doctrine was used as the first Reformist Christian thought and Calvinists took it. The Anabaptists seem to also want to claim the Waldenses as theirs. But it's not looking like they went back to the Shores of Galilee because Waldo clearly admitted it was him that founded that group and some of the offshoots of that group. ~~ The Trinity is the MOST important part of the 2x2 doctrine! and belief but many don't accept it because the friends and workers have been TAUGHT incorrectly by MANY workers for 80 yrs. Many believe the Trinity is RCC teaching. They are a false church so their teaching must be incorrect. I hope and pray this will turn around among us. The Trinity=Triune God concept taught in the Old Testament scriptures before the early apostles, and the Roman Catholic bishops thought about it in the 2nd century. The Bishops of Rome came up with the Word TRINITY to describe the Triune God= The Father, Son, and Holy.Here are the Waldenses History of the Christian Church by William Jones first edition 1812 Chapter 5--section 3. The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120) and ( A.D. 1150). Peter Waldo, from France became a Waldenese in A.D. 1170 so he could NOT be their founder. The Vaudois/Waldenses exist 1170 yrs before Peter Waldo was born. A view of doctrinal sentiments and religious practices of the Waldenses, collected from their own writings. Their historian, John Paul Perrin, in his "Histoitre des Vaudois," published at Geneva in 1619, has furnished us with two of their "Confessions of Faith," of which the following are faithful translations. Sir Samuel Morland has fixed the date of the first of them in the Year 1120. [Morland's History of the Churches of Peidmont, Page. 30] The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120)1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the Apostles' Creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles. 2. We believe that there is One God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the books of the Holy Bible. 4. The books above mentioned teach us--- that that there is ONE GOD, almighty, unbounded in the wisdom, in infinite in goodness, and who, in his goodness, has made all things. For he created Adam after his own image and likeness. But through the enmity of the devil, and his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam. 5. That Christ had been promised to the fathers who received the law, to the end that, knowing theirs sin by the law, and their unrighteousness and insufficiency, they might desire the coming of Christ to make satisfaction for their sins, and to accomplished the law by himself. 6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was born a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners, but that He, who is true, might display his grace and mercy toward us. 7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and righteousness---our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and priest, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, and rose again for justification.8. And we also firmly believe, that there in NO other mediator, or advocate with God the Father, but Jesus Christ. And as to the Virgin Mary, she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and this we also believe concerning all others Saints, namely, that they are waiting in heaven for the resurrection of their bodies at the Day of Judgment. 9. We also believe, that after this life, there are but two places---One for those who are Saved, and other for the Damned, which [two] we call paradise and hell, wholly denying Purgatory of Antichrist, invented in opposition to the truth.10. Moreover, we have ever regarded all the inventions of men (in the affairs of religion) as an unspeakable abomination before God; such as the festivals days, and vigils of Saints, and what is called holy-water, the abstaining from flesh on certain days, and such like things, but above all, the Masses.11. We hold in abhorrence all human inventions, as proceeding from Antichrist, which produce distress [alluding probably to the voluntary penances and mortification imposed by the Catholics on themselves] and are prejudicial to the liberty of the mind. 12. We consider the Sacraments as signs of holy things, or as the visible emblems of invisible blessings. We regard it as proper and even necessary that believers use these symbols or visible forms when it can be done. Notwithstanding which, we maintain that believers may be saved without these signs, when they have neither place nor opportunity of observing them. 13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper.14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12] Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal damnation. The invoking and worshiping of dead saints is idolatry. The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists. Another Waldensians confession of Faith (A.D.1150)1. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son and the image of the Father---that in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells, and that by him alone we know the Father. He is our Mediator and advocate; nor is there any other name given under heaven by which we can be saved. In His name alone we call upon the Father, using no other prayers than those contained in the Holy Scriptures, or such as are in substance agreeable thereunto. 2. We believe in the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, proceeding from the Father, and from the Son; by whose inspiration we are taught to pray; being by Him renewed in the spirit of our minds; who creates us anew unto good works, and from whom we receive the knowledge of the TRUTH.3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit. In the church it behooves all Christians to have fellowship. For her He [Christ] prays incessantly, and his prayer for it is most acceptable to God, without which indeed there could be NO salvation. 4. We hold that the ministers of the church ought to be Unblameable both in Life and Doctrine; and if found otherwise, that they ought to be deposed from their office, and others substituted in their stead; and that no person ought to presume to take that honor unto himself but he who is called of God as Aaron---that the duties of such are to feed the flock of God, not for filthy lucre's sake, or as having dominion over God's heritage, but as being examples to the flock, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, and in chastity. 5. We acknowledge, that kings, princes, and governors, are the appointed and established ministers of God, whom we are bound to obey [in all lawful and civil concerns]. For they bear the sword for the defense of the innocent, and the punishment of evildoers, for which reason we are bound to honor and pay them tribute. From this power and authority, no man can exempt himself, as is manifest from the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, who voluntarily paid tribute, not taking upon himself any jurisdiction of temporal power. 6. We believe that in the ordinance of baptism the water is the visible and external sign, which represents to us that which, by virtue of God's invisible operations, is within us---namely, the renovation of our minds, and the mortification of our members through [the faith of] Jesus Christ. And by this ordinance we are received into the holy congregation of God's people, previously professing and declaring our faith and change of life. 7. We hold that the Lord's supper is a commemoration of, and thanksgiving for, the benefits which we have received by his sufferings and death---and that it is to be received in faith and love---examining ourselves, that so we may eat of that bread and drink of that cup, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures.Nathan, how can the Trinity doctrine be an important belief of the F&W's if for 80 years or more they haven't been taught that? Most of them don't know anything about the Trinity doctrine. For it to be important, it needs to be preached by their ministers. Not just a few rather vague comments from one or two of them. The majority of the friends and workers do not believe in the Trinity so it isn't important to them at all. I don't know how you can say it is important if a majority of them don't even know what it is?
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Post by snow on Aug 10, 2014 19:26:47 GMT -5
Also, this is the Confession of Faith of the Waldenses: Very Catholic.
"In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary. Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brethren, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that we profess openly that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God....
"We firmly believe and explicitly declare that the incarnation of the Divinity did not take place in the Father and the Holy Spirit, but solely in the Son, so that he who was the divine Son of God the Father was also true man from his Mother.
"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....
"We firmly believe in the judgment to come and in the fact that each man will receive reward or punishment according to what he has done in this flesh. We do not doubt the fact that alms, sacrifice, and other charitable acts are able to be of assistance to those who die.
"And since, according to the Apostle James, faith without works is dead, we have renounced this world and have distributed to the poor all that we possess, according to the will of God, and we have decided that we ourselves should be poor in such a way as not to be careful for the morrow, and to accept from no one gold, silver, or anything else, with the exception of raiment and daily food. We have set before ourselves the objective of fulfilling the Gospel counsels as precepts.
"We believe that anyone in this age who keeps to a proper life, giving alms and doing other good works from his own possessions and observing the precepts from the Lord, can be saved.
"We make this declaration in order that if anyone should come to you affirming that he is one of us, you may know for certain that he is not one of us if he does not profess this same faith." [12]
In a statement of faith submitted to the bishop of Albano, Peter Waldo affirmed his belief in transubstantiation, prayers for the dead, and infant baptism. [13] The famed Baptist historian A.H. Newman drew the only conclusion warranted by the evidence.
"Waldo and his early followers had more in common with...Roman Catholicism than with any evangelical party. His views of life and doctrine were scarcely in advance of many earnest Catholics of the time."
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Post by snow on Aug 10, 2014 20:29:59 GMT -5
Also, this is the Confession of Faith of the Waldenses: Very Catholic. ~~ NathanB: Like I wrote in the past... In the 1st century Peter one was the leaders church in Rome, and Paul also had his own converts in Rome, who later became the Vaudois after the fled Rome to SWISS mountains, due to persecution from the Romans believers/bishops for incorporate pagans teachings within the Church to gain more converts. The RCC and the Vaudois were Catholic means Universal church. That is why they have many similar beliefs. They went their separate ways in the 3rd century. The RCC and the Vaudois/Waldenses have been enemies and at Wars for centuries. The RCC went all out seeking to Eliminate/Wipe out Paul's converts/Vaudois and those like them through the centuries. This way, they/RCC can Rightfully claim that they are indeed the ONLY TRUE Church of Jesus Christ on the earth.2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/75/origin-catholic-church-vaudoisHow do you explain that Peter Waldo was Catholic and fully admitted to starting the Waldenses? Also, are you telling me that Peter, one of the original apostles was less right than Paul, a self proclaimed apostle?
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Post by jondough on Aug 17, 2014 11:12:55 GMT -5
People talk about the "Trinity doctrine" without actually specifying what it is.
The doctrine of the Trinity is this -"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons; nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. "But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, so is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. "The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. "And yet there are not three eternals, but one eternal. Also there are not three incomprehensibles, not three uncreated: but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. "So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. "So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods: but one God. "So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords but one Lord. "For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord; so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone: not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. "So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons: one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. "And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. "HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY." No-one in scripture wrote or spoke like this.
This is from the same people who gave us the Crusades, Indulgences, Transubstantiation and let's not forget that greatest murder and terror - the Inquisition.
It is simply adding to the bible. This stuff has the same weight, if not more, than the scripture itself. You can argue the doctrine all day long, but Bert's take above is pretty much the general belief of the Friends today. If there are any today that believe as Nate does, they definitely keep it quiet. Please don't start cutting and pasting quotes from workers past sermons. Its just the way it is today. It may have been somewhat more divided years ago. Not today.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 11:19:45 GMT -5
That's the message I'm getting too JD. If they believe in the trinity, they keep it to themselves.
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Post by faune on Aug 17, 2014 11:38:41 GMT -5
That's the message I'm getting too JD. If they believe in the trinity, they keep it to themselves. Snow ~ One thing for sure, belief in the Trinity was something you didn't share back in my professing days along with not being exclusive in your beliefs about others outside the 2x2 fold. To voice such an opinion would get you quickly on the workers and friends' shun list, no doubt about it.
Jondough shared earlier...
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 12:05:41 GMT -5
That's the message I'm getting too JD. If they believe in the trinity, they keep it to themselves. Snow ~ One thing for sure, belief in the Trinity was something you didn't share back in my professing days along with not being exclusive in your beliefs about others outside the 2x2 fold. To voice such an opinion would get you quickly on the workers and friends' shun list, no doubt about it. Well then, the Waldenses are nothing like the 2x2's because they definitely believed in the trinity doctrine. No way can they be used as predecessors to the 'Truth'.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 17:57:01 GMT -5
Nathan, Waldo fully admitted to the founding of the group. There is no question about that. They also believed in infant baptism. They were pretty darn Catholic in most of their doctrines. There are a lot of groups that like to think they are from that group, but if they don't believe in those things it's highly unlikely. The closest might be the reformist groups taking SOME of the Waldenses beliefs. They also never held any of the beliefs of the Cathars. Cathars were dualists.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 19:57:33 GMT -5
Here is part of a writing called "Who Where the Waldenses" He goes on to tell why they could not have been existent before because their doctrine was very Catholic in the beginning and Waldo and some of his supporters spent quite a few years trying to get permission to preach what the doctrine of poverty and he took it before the pope numerous times. Do the 2x2's believe in infant baptism? That's just one of several ways they no way resemble the 2x2's.
WALDENSES BEFORE WALDO : Do They Exist?
Although there is unanimous agreement among reputable scholars that the Waldenses originated with the work of Waldo, and despite the fact that modern Waldense historians themselves concur with this opinion, successionists of various affiliations have inducted them into the line of "true" churches which have maintained Gospel purity since New Testament times. As one might expect, the Waldenses have been claimed as Baptists (and Plymouth Brethren by E.H. Broadbent, and Seventh-day Adventists by Ellen G. White, and others).
Those who attempt to establish a pedigree for the Waldenses anterior to Waldo himself often refer to the work of Sir Samuel Morland, a 17th-century English author and diplomat who claimed to have found evidence that verifies the great antiquity of the sect. [4] Morland reproduced documents supposedly from the year 1120, which, he said, show that the Waldenses (French, -Vaudois-) had the scriptures for about forty years prior to the translation that Waldo obtained.
The documents in question, however, show the Bible divided into chapters, and such divisions did not appear before about 1250 or later. [5] The confession of faith produced by Morland makes it appear that the Waldenses held to a strongly Protestant-evangelical theology centuries before Luther. It is now known that this document originated in the 16th century. It contains teachings of Martin Bucer, reformer of Strasbourg, copied almost verbatim. [6]
Despite their usual aversion to Roman Catholic sources, successionists have not hesitated to cite a remark by Reinerius Saccho that the Waldenses movement is ancient,
"for some SAY that it has existed from the time of Sylvester, some from the time of the apostles."
It is clear, however, that Reinerius intended only to report a belief held mistakenly by some people. The inquisitor did not accept the legend of Waldense antiquity himself. [7]
No evidence has been found which reveals a Waldense Church prior to Waldo, and neither Waldo himself nor modern Waldense historians ever asserted such claims. Scholars hostile to the Roman Catholic Church have concurred with historians of that body in affirming Waldo as founder of the sect that still bears his name. [8]
A fitting commentary on the pursuit of pedigree has been provided by Harold S. Bender, a leading Mennonite scholar of the 20th century:
"The tempting and romantic theory of apostolic succession from the apostles down to the Anabaptists through successive Old Evangelical groups, which has been very popular with those among the Mennonites and Baptists who feel the need of such an apostolic succession, always includes the Waldenses as the last link before the Anabaptists. It has...no basis in fact." [9]
As in the case of other medieval sects, the primary documents for a study of the Waldenses come mainly from Roman Catholic sources.
[ PP : These include the work of Stephen de Bourbon, a Dominican who was well acquainted with the Waldenses; Reinerius Saccho and his -Summa- is an important source; an anonymous author from Passau also contributed material to Saccho's original work; David of Augsburg, a Franciscan, wrote -Tractatus de Inquisitione Haereticorum- (1270); and Walter Map, an English monk involved in the Third Lateran Council who examined the Waldenses in Rome (1179). ]
All of these sources as well as those of a later date agree in identifying Waldo as founder of the church which now carries his name, and the confession of Waldo himself contains no suggestions that the sect antedated his ministry. [10]
The evidence is conclusive. Waldo was the founder, and "traditions of an earlier origin, stretching back even to the days of the apostles, are fables." [11]
[ PP : At this point I wanted to quote something from Hunt's A Woman Rides the Beast (Harvest House, 1994) since McGoldrick answered these claims of Samuel Morland above on the Waldenses. Hunt repeatedly mixes up the views of the Albigenses (who were Manichees, also called the "Cathari") and the Waldenses (Vaudois or Valdenses). They were completely separate sects. The "Vaudois" was simply the French name for the Waldenses.
"In 1838 George Stanley Faber wrote An Inquiry into the History and Theology of the Ancient Valdenses and Albigenses. Nearly 200 years earlier, in 1648, Samuel Morland had published his History of the Evangelical Churches of Piedmont (an area in France populated by the Albigenses and other 'heretics.') The investigation of both of these authors drew on a number of other works going back into the 13th century. From written and public testimony at their trials, it is quite clear that the Vaudois, Albigenses, Waldenses, and other similar groups were heretics to Rome only. In fact, their beliefs were much like those of the Reformers, of whom they were, in a sense, the forerunners." (Hunt, page 257, emphasis mine)
Furthermore, Mick James, an anti-Catholic Baptist of FidoNet, wrote to me via the Internet on 2/21/97 :
"Another book I just got done reading is called The Waldenses Were Independent Baptists. This book quotes a lot from 2 books by ANGLICAN HISTORIANS from the 17th century who wrote extensively on these groups from the Valleys of Piedmont. Both of these works prove that groups like the Waldenses were baptistic in their doctrine."
Now let's get the facts on the table concerning the Waldenses that answer these wild speculations of Hunt and others.]
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Post by snow on Aug 18, 2014 9:29:46 GMT -5
Nathan you read about how everyone is trying to link it, but they aren't right? So I would say, give up that end of things. You will find lots of literature that supposedly supports it, but it's common knowledge that he started it, that he tried to get it 'blessed' by the Catholic pope and when that failed, he and his followers were labelled heretics. They had nothing to do with the Cathars having completely different belief systems. There is absolutely no link there because Cathars were dualists and Waldenses were not.
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Post by snow on Aug 18, 2014 16:15:36 GMT -5
Nathan you read about how everyone is trying to link it, but they aren't right? So I would say, give up that end of things. You will find lots of literature that supposedly supports it, but it's common knowledge that he started it, that he tried to get it 'blessed' by the Catholic pope and when that failed, he and his followers were labelled heretics. They had nothing to do with the Cathars having completely different belief systems. There is absolutely no link there because Cathars were dualists and Waldenses were not. Like I wrote in the past.... Many ex-Waldenses broke off from the Vaudois group in the 15Th-17th century and became Protestants movement/sect... The Baptists, Elleng G. White, Plymouth Brethren, and MANY others have claimed they were Waldenses... The Cathars and Waldenses ONE and the same but they had some differences doctrinal belief among them... They are ONE and the SAME. Just like Peter and Paul groups in the 1st century. They are ONE but had some differences in doctrinal belief.How can they be one and the same if they have different doctrines? The Waldenses believed what the catholic church believed. The Cathars are so far off the doctrine of the Waldenses that the Catholics were initially glad that Waldo wasn't preaching what they preached. They were dualists. They believed in two Gods. One for Earth and one for Heaven. That's a simplistic explanation for a dualist, but you can see that there would be no way they originated from each other or were the same.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 17:57:57 GMT -5
On the "Trinity" question, I have often wondered about the removal of hymn 239 in our old hymn-book ("Cease not to Praise God for all He has done") when the current hymn-book was put together. Did this have anything to do with the words "Cease not to worship the Father and Son/The Holy Spirit and these Three are One"? I suspect it did because of the "Trinity" connotations.
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Post by snow on Aug 18, 2014 18:27:02 GMT -5
On the "Trinity" question, I have often wondered about the removal of hymn 239 in our old hymn-book ("Cease not to Praise God for all He has done") when the current hymn-book was put together. Did this have anything to do with the words "Cease not to worship the Father and Son/The Holy Spirit and these Three are One"? I suspect it did because of the "Trinity" connotations. Interesting question. Maybe someone on here knows? Pretty likely if it's not 2x2 doctrine.
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Post by snow on Aug 19, 2014 10:02:32 GMT -5
Nathan, what they objected to was unauthorized preaching done by someone that was not a catholic priest.
"Recruits to Waldo's "Poor of Lyons" came from all levels of society. A few were priests, but most were laymen. Durand of Huesca (Spain), a scholar of some ability, became unofficial theologian for the movement, but the emphasis of these "Waldenses" was, from the start, on personal piety and good works performed in imitation of Christ and the apostles.
The movement did not seek to alter Catholic dogma and was not intended to be a separatist church. The bishops at first would have found nothing about which to object had not the Waldenses assumed the right to preach. It was unauthorized preaching in public places that aroused suspicion and led the Archbishop of Lyons to attempt to stop them.
Waldo and his disciples were ordered to submit to the bishops. To render unqualified submission would, however, have meant the end of their preaching, so the Waldenses disobeyed and brought upon themselves a barrage of clerical criticism. As of yet the Waldenses had issued no pronouncements which could have been rightly construed as heresy, and in 1180 Waldo signed a statement of faith dictated by a papal legate in which the popular exponent of apostolic living subscribed to all of the major tenets of traditional Catholicism. [2]
While Waldo and his followers had no doctrinal quarrel with Rome, their defiance of episcopal prohibitions against preaching led in 1184 to their condemnation by a synod of bishops meeting in Verona. Much to their dismay, the Waldenses were excluded from the Church and declared to be heretics.
In 1207 Durand of Huesca abandoned the Waldenses and returned to the Catholic Church. He asked Pope Innocent III to authorize an order of "Catholic Poor," a move that would be completely submissive to the hierarchy. St. Dominic Guzman had assisted Durand in recruiting small bands of Waldenses who agreed to return to Rome. Later, clerical opposition to the Catholic Poor hindered their work badly, and in 1254 Pope Innocent IV directed the Poor Catholics to merge with the Augustinian Hermits. [3]
Exclusion from the Church caused the Waldenses to re-examine dogma, with the consequence that they eventually came to espouse teachings that were heretical when judged by standards of medieval Catholic orthodoxy. The drift away from Catholic dogmas was relatively slow and uneven, and some segments of the sect became more radical than others. Waldense churches began to appear in France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, and elsewhere, and a Waldense Church remains in Italy to the present. The Waldenses comprised the only medieval sect that would survive as an organized religious body into the modern era."
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Post by snow on Aug 19, 2014 13:35:03 GMT -5
Here is what they believed Nathan. Notice especially their Confession of Faith. Does that sound anything like what the 2x2's believe?
It is clear that the Waldenses were far less heretical than the Cathars and agreed, at least in the early years of their history, with the Roman Catholic Church on most points of doctrine. This is to be expected, since Waldo hoped to gain papal approval for his movement.
On theology proper that is, the doctrine of God, Waldo and his disciples upheld the orthodox Catholic belief in the Trinity and the two natures of Christ. The Waldenses did not imbibe Cathar dualism. The pope, in fact, commended Waldo for opposing the Cathars. Because Waldo's confession of faith is quite specific in its affirmation of loyalty to traditional Catholicism, it bears quoting at length:
WALDO ("Valdesius") CONFESSION OF FAITH : Catholic to the Core
"In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary. Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brethren, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that we profess openly that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God....
"We firmly believe and explicitly declare that the incarnation of the Divinity did not take place in the Father and the Holy Spirit, but solely in the Son, so that he who was the divine Son of God the Father was also true man from his Mother.
"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....
"We firmly believe in the judgment to come and in the fact that each man will receive reward or punishment according to what he has done in this flesh. We do not doubt the fact that alms, sacrifice, and other charitable acts are able to be of assistance to those who die.
"And since, according to the Apostle James, faith without works is dead, we have renounced this world and have distributed to the poor all that we possess, according to the will of God, and we have decided that we ourselves should be poor in such a way as not to be careful for the morrow, and to accept from no one gold, silver, or anything else, with the exception of raiment and daily food. We have set before ourselves the objective of fulfilling the Gospel counsels as precepts.
"We believe that anyone in this age who keeps to a proper life, giving alms and doing other good works from his own possessions and observing the precepts from the Lord, can be saved.
"We make this declaration in order that if anyone should come to you affirming that he is one of us, you may know for certain that he is not one of us if he does not profess this same faith." [12]
In a statement of faith submitted to the bishop of Albano, Peter Waldo affirmed his belief in transubstantiation, prayers for the dead, and infant baptism. [13] The famed Baptist historian A.H. Newman drew the only conclusion warranted by the evidence.
"Waldo and his early followers had more in common with...Roman Catholicism than with any evangelical party. His views of life and doctrine were scarcely in advance of many earnest Catholics of the time." [14]
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Post by fixit on Aug 19, 2014 16:13:24 GMT -5
hmmmmm... My questions to you, snow.. Is if the Waldensians belief like the Catholic Church to the core then WHY? the RCC seek to Exterminate the Waldensians for more than 1500 yrs? And the Waldensians said the RCC is the harlot/false bride of Christ? The Waldensians and RCC is like Water and Oil.... LIGHT vs. Darkness. The Church of Rome is a one-true-way Nathan. The most important doctrine of one-true-way organizations is submission to the church hierarchy.
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Post by snow on Aug 19, 2014 16:51:40 GMT -5
Yes Nathan, fixit nailed it. Did you read what I posted? At first the RCC condoned them because they weren't preaching anything different. Their problem was they were preaching without being ordained, so that became an issue. They tried to get the pope to bless their doctrine of poverty and allow them to preach but it was denied. So they continued anyway. But by reading their confession of faith, you will see that they believed everything the RCC did. The difference was their doctrine of poverty. One of the monks that had joined Waldo because he believed in the doctrine of poverty, eventually went back to the RCC and started a following adhering to poverty among the monks, but under the auspices of the catholic church.
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Post by findingtruth on Aug 19, 2014 23:06:44 GMT -5
Nathan you read about how everyone is trying to link it, but they aren't right? So I would say, give up that end of things. You will find lots of literature that supposedly supports it, but it's common knowledge that he started it, that he tried to get it 'blessed' by the Catholic pope and when that failed, he and his followers were labelled heretics. They had nothing to do with the Cathars having completely different belief systems. There is absolutely no link there because Cathars were dualists and Waldenses were not. Like I wrote in the past.... Many ex-Waldenses broke off from the Vaudois group in the 15Th-17th century and became Protestants movement/sect... The Baptists, Elleng G. White, Plymouth Brethren, and MANY others have claimed they were Waldenses... The Cathars and Waldenses ONE and the same but they had some differences doctrinal belief among them... They are ONE and the SAME. Just like Peter and Paul groups in the 1st century. They are ONE but had some differences in doctrinal belief.And the 2x2 sect was a breakaway from ....hmmm...protestants. Oh, but I guess they are still protestants aren't they? They represent nothing more than another breakaway group comprised of individuals who are dissatisfied with previous religious affiliations. I cannot help but view ANY religious sect as anything other than the result of disagreement and an unwillingness to work together in harmony. And that includes every group that you have mentioned.
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Post by fixit on Aug 20, 2014 5:22:20 GMT -5
The Church of Rome is a one-true-way Nathan. The most important doctrine of one-true-way organizations is submission to the church hierarchy. Jesus is the ONLY TRUE WAY... ALL believers must Submit to Jesus New Testament/covenant teachings. Jesus said in John 15:5-7 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. One-true-way organizations might SAY that Jesus is the ONLY TRUE WAY but they add conditions for belonging to their group.
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Post by snow on Aug 20, 2014 9:22:35 GMT -5
Nathan if Irvine is not the founder, please give me the name of the worker he professed under.
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Post by faune on Aug 20, 2014 9:36:51 GMT -5
Nathan if Irvine is not the founder, please give me the name of the worker he professed under. Snow ~ Now that's a loaded question, I must admit? What ever happen to the William Irvine's sister story? Perhaps she was the first worker who set Willie on the straight and narrow path, giving rise to women in the work?
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Post by snow on Aug 20, 2014 9:44:47 GMT -5
Nathan if Irvine is not the founder, please give me the name of the worker he professed under. Snow ~ Now that's a loaded question, I must admit? What ever happen to the William Irvine's sister story? Perhaps she was the first worker who set Willie on the straight and narrow path, giving rise to women in the work? If she was, I want to know the name of the worker she professed through. But they aren't there and the workers in the beginning never even hinted that there was anyone other than the Faith Mission and Irvine.
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Post by snow on Aug 20, 2014 10:37:00 GMT -5
So how did he make his choice Nathan? There is no mention of a worker just a family and his sister. Were any of them authorized to be workers? Were they called workers? No one in the Waldenses ministry were every called workers. He may have got some of his ideas from an offshoot (of which there were many) but the beliefs of the Waldenses in no way represent the beliefs of the F&W's. So Irvine took a few ideas from this family and created his own version which is just what so many have done forever, within Christianity. It shows that any interpretation is possible, and anyone can start a church with their own interpretation of things. But as far as sharing the beliefs of the Waldenses, not possible.
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Post by faune on Aug 20, 2014 10:38:24 GMT -5
Snow ~ Well, it appears that Nathan has resurrected the sister story for an answer to your question earlier? However, I agree with you on the 2x2's originating with William Irvine from all evidence of record we have today. As far as his conversion experience, it is believed that some Presbyterian pastor by the name of O'Neal was his original salvation contact before he started his own religion? Of course, we are talking about worldly pastors here, so that does add a monkey wrench to the apostolic succession story, don't you think?
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Post by snow on Aug 20, 2014 10:46:59 GMT -5
Snow ~ Well, it appears that Nathan has resurrected the sister story for an answer to your question earlier? However, I agree with you on the 2x2's originating with William Irvine from all evidence of record we have today. As far as his conversion experience, it is believed that some Presbyterian pastor by the name of O'Neal was his original salvation contact before he started his own religion? Of course, we are talking about worldly pastors here, so that does add a monkey wrench to the apostolic succession story, don't you think?
All you have to do is look at the Confession of faith by the Waldenses and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 2x2's never believed what they believed. That's what this thread has confirmed. Many religions claims their succession from the Waldenses, but how can that be if they are all different from each other and even different from the original group?
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Post by fixit on Aug 20, 2014 14:17:42 GMT -5
Faune wrote: Basically, man is a Triune being (body, Soul, and spirit), created in God's image (Genesis 1: 26) which is defined as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit contained in one body=Triune God. ~~ I say a BIG Amen! sister. VERY good illustration of the Trinity-Triune God and man in One Body/Godhead.So you want the thread to discuss Trinitarian dogma rather than who William Irvine professed through?
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Post by snow on Aug 20, 2014 15:55:45 GMT -5
Nathan did you read their Confession of Faith? What part of that is what the 2x2's believe?
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