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Post by matisse on Aug 29, 2014 9:13:48 GMT -5
Yes and yes. I suspect we have different definitions for "Judeo-Christian". Shall we try replacing it with "Western"? It seems to me that the concept of the "Golden Rule" is fundamental to any concept of "Human Rights". Variations on the Golden Rule have emerged in human populations independent of Christianity and independent of Western Culture. |
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Post by faune on Aug 29, 2014 11:23:51 GMT -5
Separation of state and religion was supported by many Christian leaders. Thomas Jefferson was at the forefront of this movement. He was the principal author of the United States Declaration of Independence and he articulated a statement about human rights that most Americans revere. I think we need to be careful about aligning secularism with non-theism or atheism. I'm a Christian who supports secularism. Ross ~ the same here! I feel separation of state and religion is a safeguard from oppression. Although Thomas Jefferson was more of a deist in his beliefs, as were some others among the American founding fathers, he valued the moral guidelines of Jesus of Nazareth as found within the gospel accounts. However, the contents of his Jefferson Bible speaks for itself as to what he choose to believe from the gospel stories.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
www.amazon.com/The-Jefferson-Bible-Morals-Nazareth/dp/1604591285
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 29, 2014 14:49:15 GMT -5
Yes and yes. I suspect we have different definitions for "Judeo-Christian".Shall we try replacing it with "Western"?
Why do you want to change the horse in the middle of the stream?
Why do you want to change the goal posts in the middle of the game?
Can't you give your definition of Judeo-Christian culture and what that culture consist of?
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Post by fixit on Aug 29, 2014 16:23:20 GMT -5
OK, let's stay with "Judeo-Christian".
Consider the following writings from our Judeo-Christian roots.
Do you think if humanity had followed this teaching over the last 3,000 years the world would have been a better place?
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Post by fixit on Aug 29, 2014 18:35:54 GMT -5
Yes and yes. I suspect we have different definitions for "Judeo-Christian". Shall we try replacing it with "Western"? It seems to me that the concept of the "Golden Rule" is fundamental to any concept of "Human Rights". Variations on the Golden Rule have emerged in human populations independent of Christianity and independent of Western Culture. I'm interested to hear which human populations you have in mind. |
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Post by matisse on Aug 29, 2014 19:08:30 GMT -5
It seems to me that the concept of the "Golden Rule" is fundamental to any concept of "Human Rights". Variations on the Golden Rule have emerged in human populations independent of Christianity and independent of Western Culture. I'm interested to hear which human populations you have in mind. Here's a start: "The Golden Rule"Variations on the Golden Rule existed in antiquity in Babylon, China, Egypt, Greece, Rome and India. |
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Post by faune on Aug 29, 2014 19:22:47 GMT -5
fixit, you just keep repeating yourself. 
Where is documentation for your premise?
I'm not defending a thesis. I'm simply asking you a question... If respect for human rights and secular government didn't grow out of Judeo-Christian culture, then where did it come from?Fixit ~ Here's one answer that came up when I googled your question above. Honestly, this TED article makes a lot of sense to me, too, and pretty much speaks the truth about religious beliefs and how they affected people's lives down through the centuries. We can be thankful we didn't live in the Dark Ages when Christianity was in early development within the world. JMT
www.ted.com/conversations/10901/no_god_no_morality.html
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Post by fixit on Aug 29, 2014 19:24:17 GMT -5
I'm interested to hear which human populations you have in mind. Here's a start: "The Golden Rule"Variations on the Golden Rule existed in antiquity in Babylon, China, Egypt, Greece, Rome and India. True. But it was the Judeo-Christian civilization that was the driving force behind the multinational declaration of human rights. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 29, 2014 19:38:23 GMT -5
OK, let's stay with "Judeo-Christian". Consider the following writings from our Judeo-Christian roots. Do you think if humanity had followed this teaching over the last 3,000 years the world would have been a better place?
Your quotes of Judeo-Christian literature are very selective.
Leviticus 19:9 may be the 'do not' "rules," -but it isn't what the Judeo-Christian culture actually did. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 29, 2014 19:54:59 GMT -5
Here's a start: "The Golden Rule"Variations on the Golden Rule existed in antiquity in Babylon, China, Egypt, Greece, Rome and India. True. But it was the Judeo-Christian civilization that was the driving force behind the multinational declaration of human rights.
The driving force behind the "multinational declaration of human rights" WAS NOT the Judeo-Christian civilization.
The concepts in the Declaration come from the philosophical and political duties of the "Enlightenment"
If indeed the the Judeo-Christian culture had anything at all to do with multinational declaration of human rights, -it was only because those of the "Enlightenment" was countering the concepts of the Judeo-Christian culture and NOT following it.
How many 1000 of years did the Judeo-Christian culture have to do something about race and sex equality and yet had done nearly nothing to change that inequality?
It was only with The enlightenment that people began to DO something about the equality.
As I said in my original post, this only begin to happen until the 1700's, -a mere 300 years ago .
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Post by fixit on Aug 29, 2014 20:08:40 GMT -5
No.
The driving force behind the "multinational declaration of human rights" WAS NOT the Judeo-Christian civilization.
The concepts in the Declaration come from the philosophical and political duties of the "Enlightenment"
If indeed the the Judeo-Christian culture had anything at all to do with multinational declaration of human rights, -it was only because those of the "Enlightenment" was countering the concepts of the Judeo-Christian culture and NOT following it.
The enlightenment came out of our Judeo-Christian civilization. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 29, 2014 20:33:22 GMT -5
No.
The driving force behind the "multinational declaration of human rights" WAS NOT the Judeo-Christian civilization.
The concepts in the Declaration come from the philosophical and political duties of the "Enlightenment"
If indeed the the Judeo-Christian culture had anything at all to do with multinational declaration of human rights, -it was only because those of the "Enlightenment" was countering the concepts of the Judeo-Christian culture and NOT following it.
The enlightenment came out of our Judeo-Christian civilization. So did you, whether you like to acknowledge that or not.
If I were indeed born in the Judeo-Christian culture, I have grown to understand those underlying concepts in the Judeo-Christian culture are not conducive to the concepts of equality & human rights. I therefore left it behind me. |
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Post by matisse on Aug 29, 2014 21:39:42 GMT -5
Here's a start: "The Golden Rule"Variations on the Golden Rule existed in antiquity in Babylon, China, Egypt, Greece, Rome and India. True. But it was the Judeo-Christian civilization that was the driving force behind the multinational declaration of human rights. What do you mean by "the Judeo-Christian civilization? And did anyone bother to ask Jews if they minded being lumped together with Christians?! Are you looking to claim some kind of moral and ethical superiority of Christian traditions? |
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 29, 2014 22:55:08 GMT -5
What do you mean by "the Judeo-Christian civilization? And did anyone bother to ask Jews if they minded being lumped together with Christians?! Are you looking to claim some kind of moral and ethical superiority of Christian traditions?
Many of them, however, only want to use it to firm up their fundamentalist views & by no means do they believe that the Jewish people will be in eternity along side of the Christians.
They believe that the Jews must accept the Christian belief that Jesus was the Messiah, and accept him as their Savior.
In other words, the Jews must become Christians if they they are to have the life eternal that the Christians claim as their right
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Post by fixit on Aug 30, 2014 0:48:13 GMT -5
What do you mean by "the Judeo-Christian civilization? And did anyone bother to ask Jews if they minded being lumped together with Christians?! Are you looking to claim some kind of moral and ethical superiority of Christian traditions? Our Western civilization has come from Judeo-Christian roots. The freedoms we enjoy have never been as widespread as they are in 21st century Western society. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 30, 2014 1:18:46 GMT -5
What do you mean by "the Judeo-Christian civilization? And did anyone bother to ask Jews if they minded being lumped together with Christians?! Are you looking to claim some kind of moral and ethical superiority of Christian traditions? Our Western civilization has come from Judeo-Christian roots. The freedoms we enjoy have never been as widespread as they are in 21st century Western society.
They come from the concept of universal human rights though the results of the "Enlightenment" due men who did not rely on the Judeo-Christian concepts, men like Thomas Jefferson in the US and General LaFayette from France, amongst others.
Thomas Jefferson was not Jewish and neither was he a Christian.
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Post by fixit on Aug 30, 2014 2:14:50 GMT -5
Our Western civilization has come from Judeo-Christian roots. The freedoms we enjoy have never been as widespread as they are in 21st century Western society.
They come from the concept of universal human rights though the results of the "Enlightenment" due men who did not rely on the Judeo-Christian concepts, men like Thomas Jefferson in the US and General LaFayette from France, amongst others.
Thomas Jefferson was not Jewish and neither was he a Christian.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..." |
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Post by matisse on Aug 30, 2014 9:24:16 GMT -5
I will repeat again the fact that the freedoms we enjoy today did NOT come from Judeo-Christian roots.
They come from the concept of universal human rights though the results of the "Enlightenment" due men who did not rely on the Judeo-Christian concepts, men like Thomas Jefferson in the US and General LaFayette from France, amongst others.
Thomas Jefferson was not Jewish and neither was he a Christian.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..." Jefferson was this kind of Christian: ...and this kind, as well: Oh, and in case you are wondering, here is an example of what John Adams was writing back to Jefferson: |
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Post by fixit on Aug 30, 2014 16:07:31 GMT -5
The American Founders were from Judeo-Christian roots.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 30, 2014 17:00:11 GMT -5
I will repeat again the fact that the freedoms we enjoy today did NOT come from Judeo-Christian roots.
They come from the concept of universal human rights though the results of the "Enlightenment" due men who did not rely on the Judeo-Christian concepts, men like Thomas Jefferson in the US and General LaFayette from France, amongst others.
Thomas Jefferson was not Jewish and neither was he a Christian.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."
All those Foundation Documents for the newly forming government were debated, often heatedly, by those early founders.
There are many books on the subject.
My husband was a scholar of sorts on the history of the forming of the American government.
Just a couple of his books:
Miracle at Philadelphia
The Spirit of 'Seventy-Six.
If you can get to this website you can find how that early document , the Declaration of Independence was formed
candst.tripod.com/doitj.htm
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 30, 2014 17:14:01 GMT -5
I will repeat again the fact that the freedoms we enjoy today did NOT come from Judeo-Christian roots.
They come from the concept of universal human rights though the results of the "Enlightenment" due men who did not rely on the Judeo-Christian concepts, men like Thomas Jefferson in the US and General LaFayette from France, amongst others.
Thomas Jefferson was not Jewish and neither was he a Christian.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."
Jefferson's Original Declaration of Independence Did Not Use the Word "Creator".
Many people point to the Declaration of Independence as proof of Thomas Jefferson's intentions to create a "Christian nation." In fact, there is nothing in his original draft of the Declaration of Independence to indicate such intentions.
by Jim Allison
OUTLINE
The evolution of the text of the Declaration of Independence regarding the use of the word "Creator" began with the quill of Thomas Jefferson, was discussed with and shown or submitted to John Adams and probably Benjamin Franklin. There were two other members of the "Committee of Five" but there is no historical evidence to show what, if any input they might have had. It was then submitted to Congress. Refer to Original Rough Draught of the Declaration of Independence1
The original version as written by Jefferson no longer exists but has been reconstructed from various copies that do exist as follows with regards to the topic:
"We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable, that all men are created equal and independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent and unalienables, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty and the pursuit of happiness; . . . "2
In the Adams copy, written, sometime between June 11 and June 28, in his own (J. Adams) handwriting we have the following:
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent and unalienables, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty and the pursuit of happiness; . . ." 3
Sometime later, but before being submitted to Congress, the above was changed to the following:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. . . ."4
Though many other changes were made in the rest of the document, Congress accepted those lines for the finished Declaration.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2014 18:32:55 GMT -5
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."
Jefferson's Original Declaration of Independence Did Not Use the Word "Creator".
Many people point to the Declaration of Independence as proof of Thomas Jefferson's intentions to create a "Christian nation." In fact, there is nothing in his original draft of the Declaration of Independence to indicate such intentions.
by Jim Allison
OUTLINE
The evolution of the text of the Declaration of Independence regarding the use of the word "Creator" began with the quill of Thomas Jefferson, was discussed with and shown or submitted to John Adams and probably Benjamin Franklin. There were two other members of the "Committee of Five" but there is no historical evidence to show what, if any input they might have had. It was then submitted to Congress. Refer to Original Rough Draught of the Declaration of Independence1
The original version as written by Jefferson no longer exists but has been reconstructed from various copies that do exist as follows with regards to the topic:
"We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable, that all men are created equal and independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent and unalienables, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty and the pursuit of happiness; . . . "2
In the Adams copy, written, sometime between June 11 and June 28, in his own (J. Adams) handwriting we have the following:
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent and unalienables, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty and the pursuit of happiness; . . ." 3
Sometime later, but before being submitted to Congress, the above was changed to the following:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. . . ."4
Though many other changes were made in the rest of the document, Congress accepted those lines for the finished Declaration.
the whole point is that after further discussion they picked "Creator" and that they all put their names on the doucment so they were okay with it.... |
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 30, 2014 21:00:48 GMT -5
Here is the history of the word "creator" in the Declaration of Independence.
Jefferson's Original Declaration of Independence Did Not Use the Word "Creator".
Many people point to the Declaration of Independence as proof of Thomas Jefferson's intentions to create a "Christian nation." In fact, there is nothing in his original draft of the Declaration of Independence to indicate such intentions.
by Jim Allison
OUTLINE
The evolution of the text of the Declaration of Independence regarding the use of the word "Creator" began with the quill of Thomas Jefferson, was discussed with and shown or submitted to John Adams and probably Benjamin Franklin. There were two other members of the "Committee of Five" but there is no historical evidence to show what, if any input they might have had. It was then submitted to Congress. Refer to Original Rough Draught of the Declaration of Independence1
The original version as written by Jefferson no longer exists but has been reconstructed from various copies that do exist as follows with regards to the topic:
"We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable, that all men are created equal and independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent and unalienables, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty and the pursuit of happiness; . . . "2
In the Adams copy, written, sometime between June 11 and June 28, in his own (J. Adams) handwriting we have the following:
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent and unalienables, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty and the pursuit of happiness; . . ." 3
Sometime later, but before being submitted to Congress, the above was changed to the following:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. . . ."4
Though many other changes were made in the rest of the document, Congress accepted those lines for the finished Declaration.
the whole point is that after further discussion they picked "Creator" and that they all put their names on the doucment so they were okay with it....
The other quotes prior were rather cumbersome.
Still doesn't mean that they meant the creator as Judeo-Christian god or a Christian god.
Both Jefferson & Franklin were men of the Enlightenment.
They had been witness to the terrible results of religious wars due the rivaling Christian governments & Kings in Europe.
Jefferson & Franklin as well as the other founders were determined to not let that happen in America.
If they were able, no doubt they would be "turning in their graves" at seeing the aims of today's fundamentalist Christians to turn America into a Christian nation.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 31, 2014 23:58:12 GMT -5
Although true, as I reviewed it, it seemed more due to the fact they were trying to be more concise.
The other quotes prior were rather cumbersome.
Still doesn't mean that they meant the creator as Judeo-Christian god or a Christian god.
Both Jefferson & Franklin were men of the Enlightenment.
They had been witness to the terrible results of religious wars due the rivaling Christian governments & Kings in Europe.
Jefferson & Franklin as well as the other founders were determined to not let that happen in America.
If they were able, no doubt they would be "turning in their graves" at seeing the aims of today's fundamentalist Christians to turn America into a Christian nation.
I think it's fairly safe to assume that the reference to Creator is a reference to God Almighty - Yahweh. To argue otherwise, might be to argue black was blue (perhaps your blue coloured font is really black!) No-one would argue that fairly dastardly things have been done under the banner of Christianity - just like dastardly things have been done by those who don't believe in a God. If we all followed the greatest law of God to love the Lord with all our heart, mind and soul and our neighbour as ourselves, the world would be a pretty good place.
Have you ever read anything about the Enlightenment? |
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Post by bubbles on Sept 8, 2014 7:13:36 GMT -5
In Australia if you work around/with children you must have police checks and a Working With Childrens check every 5 yrs.
I think that includes youth and sunday school teachers.
When you think about 2x2ism it slips under the radar because they dont do sunday school or youth ministry.
Im trying to digest that GT knew and raised the issue of CSA back in 2004.
Its taken all this time 10yrs?
Its still not resolved.
Its heart breaking.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 8, 2014 14:27:51 GMT -5
I DON'T think you can just assume that the Jefferson & Franklin reference to Creator was a reference to God Almighty - Yahweh.
Have you ever read anything about the Enlightenment? Yes - I've read a reasonable amount. On the religious front, there was definitely a move back to more simple/straightforward Christianity and a focus on moral teaching.While there were pockets of different thinking I don't get the sense that there was any wholesale move against God the Creator....?
If you had, you would certainly know it had nothing to do with a move back to more simple/straightforward Christianity !
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Post by fixit on Sept 8, 2014 14:51:52 GMT -5
I DON'T think you can just assume that the Jefferson & Franklin reference to Creator was a reference to God Almighty - Yahweh.Jefferson believed the nation should be founded on the morals of Jesus, but citizens should be guaranteed the freedom to believe whatever they wish. The following quote from Jefferson reveals that he considered himself a Christian, but many Christians rejected him as a Christian... Here's some more quotes from Jefferson... |
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 8, 2014 15:40:18 GMT -5
I DON'T think you can just assume that the Jefferson & Franklin reference to Creator was a reference to God Almighty - Yahweh.Jefferson believed the nation should be founded on the morals of Jesus, but citizens should be guaranteed the freedom to believe whatever they wish. The following quote from Jefferson reveals that he considered himself a Christian, but many Christians rejected him as a Christian... Here's some more quotes from Jefferson...
While opposed to the institutions of organized religion, Jefferson consistently expressed his belief in God. For example, he invoked the notion of divine justice in 1782 in his opposition to slavery,[33] and invoked divine Providence in his second inaugural address.[34]
Jefferson did not shrink from questioning the existence of God. In a 1787 letter to his nephew and ward, Peter Carr, who was at school, Jefferson offered the following advice:
“ Fix Reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear. ...
Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you. "-- (Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217)[35]
Jefferson wrote that “Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God.”
He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.”
He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”
He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as “mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”
He wrote in a letter to John Adams that “the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
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