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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 19, 2014 4:04:02 GMT -5
I'm starting to think that its no longer coincidence that every time this poster/book author/researcher gets called on the carpet.....he disappears? No I haven't gone away! We are five hours ahead of the US and when CD posted. I was peacefully tucked up in bed . Furthermore my life does not revolve around TMB and I have other important calls on my time such as responding to some of the many emails I get from those who need help.
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Post by matisse on Apr 19, 2014 6:29:43 GMT -5
No I haven't gone away! We are five hours ahead of the US and when CD posted. I was peacefully tucked up in bed :). Furthermore my life does not revolve around TMB and I have other important calls on my time such as responding to some of the many emails I get from those who need help. To further clarify, you are five hours ahead of where I live in the Eastern Time Zone, seven hours ahead of Mountain Time and eight hours ahead of Pacific Time!
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Post by matisse on Apr 19, 2014 7:22:25 GMT -5
I know quite a bit how people end up atheists despite what you may think so I have clear idea as to how they reached their worldview. I have lots of friends who are atheists, others agnostics and we have fairly lively but agreeable discussions. You say that atheism comes from examining religion, etc. This is partly true but what I find on most occasions with those who reject Christianity is that they will have read just about everything that rejects Christianity but rarely have they read the Bible in any detail. They will have read Dawkins and others from times past and are prepared to accept the authenticity of their theses. This does not describe my experience. Based on your claims, I suspect you have little, if any insight into my loss of faith. True, I haven't read nor watched either. However, I also have never read Dawkins' God Delusion. How are you defining the word "religion"?
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Post by xna on Apr 19, 2014 8:04:42 GMT -5
Religions operates best under "Divided We Stand - United We Fall"; religions must have an enemy. There are more schisms than unifications. Apostates are just bitter. They preach world peace, under their terms. More accepting sects like UU church's are in decline. I like the Humanist worldview best because; it's concern for the well being of all, it uses mans best proven path to knowing - observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_III
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 9:28:55 GMT -5
I'm starting to think that its no longer coincidence that every time this poster/book author/researcher gets called on the carpet.....he disappears? I don't know what's going on there. All I know is that he comes on, makes strange assertions and never responds to my questions. He managed to evade my many questions about his book in the early stages when he refused to answer questions from anyone who hadn't read the book yet. Then after I read the book, he simply refused to support his assertions without any explanation. I see in a previous post he states that he has more important things to do. Maybe he feels persecuted, who knows, but this is just a discussion forum that is all about making assertions and giving reasons for them. Refusal to answer is sometimes justified but often it simply validates the point being made by the questioner.
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Post by matisse on Apr 19, 2014 9:46:10 GMT -5
You don't have to look very far to find a few atheists just as evangelical about convincing people there is no God just as hardcore believers who have the only right way! Come to think of it, the similarities are eerily substantial! For the most part, atheists don't proselytize and posture themselves as superior beings with superior ideas. I suppose the same could be said for believers. There are lots of similarities! When you consider that we are all human (as far as I can tell, anyway), then the similarities between us are not at all eerie!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 10:59:04 GMT -5
You don't have to look very far to find a few atheists just as evangelical about convincing people there is no God just as hardcore believers who have the only right way! Come to think of it, the similarities are eerily substantial! For the most part, atheists don't proselytize and posture themselves as superior beings with superior ideas. I suppose the same could be said for believers. There are lots of similarities! When you consider that we are all human (as far as I can tell, anyway), then the similarities between us are not at all eerie! Exactly!
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Post by jondough on Apr 19, 2014 11:18:06 GMT -5
No I haven't gone away! We are five hours ahead of the US and when CD posted. I was peacefully tucked up in bed . Furthermore my life does not revolve around TMB and I have other important calls on my time such as responding to some of the many emails I get from those who need help. OK, I can accept this except you still didn't answer CD's questions above that I was referring to. They are pretty simple, straight forward and fair questions.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 19, 2014 11:44:14 GMT -5
OK, I can accept this except you still didn't answer CD's questions above that I was referring to. They are pretty simple, straight forward and fair questions. It was CD's question to which I was referring. Don't panic - I will get around to it even if it not the way you want
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Post by jondough on Apr 19, 2014 11:55:07 GMT -5
Thank You. I will be looking forward to reading your answers when you get to it.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 19, 2014 13:21:40 GMT -5
As to your first question these ‘insiders’ fall into various categories. There were those I interviewed (I prefer entered into discussion with) face to face, others through email. In fairness the greatest majority were from Ireland and the UK but a reasonable cross section from the US, Australia, New Zealand, a few from Sweden and one from Finland. These included members, a few bishops, some workers and at least two overseers – one from the US. As to your second question of course none admitted to bitterness or resentment towards those who had left and of course I would not have expected them to regardless of how they felt. On the other hand I had countless accounts from those that I would judge to be reasonable folk who after leaving had experienced a high degree of bitterness and exclusion from those who had even been close friends and some very close family members. I will settle for two examples: In this particular case I knew all of those concerned. A bishop with two sons – one very wild and drinking alcohol excessively and the other got saved and became part of a local evangelical church. The father’s response was that he would rather see the son running wild than the other son involved in a false church. At the launch of my book in one of the venues a woman told me that although she had left the movement more than forty years ago she was still conscious of resentment directed towards her from those within her own family who remained part of the movement.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 19, 2014 13:23:00 GMT -5
As to your first question these ‘insiders’ fall into various categories. There were those I interviewed (I prefer entered into discussion with) face to face, others through email. In fairness the greatest majority were from Ireland and the UK but a reasonable cross section from the US, Australia, New Zealand, a few from Sweden and one from Finland. These included members, a few bishops, some workers and at least two overseers – one from the US. As to your second question of course none admitted to bitterness or resentment towards those who had left and of course I would not have expected them to regardless of how they felt. On the other hand I had countless accounts from those that I would judge to be reasonable folk who after leaving had experienced a high degree of bitterness and exclusion from those who had even been close friends and some very close family members. I will settle for two examples: In this particular case I knew all of those concerned. A bishop with two sons – one very wild and drinking alcohol excessively and the other got saved and became part of a local evangelical church. The father’s response was that he would rather see the son running wild than the other son involved in a false church. At the launch of my book in one of the venues a woman told me that although she had left the movement more than forty years ago she was still conscious of resentment directed towards her from those within her own family who remained part of the movement.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 13:34:00 GMT -5
As to your first question these ‘insiders’ fall into various categories. There were those I interviewed (I prefer entered into discussion with) face to face, others through email. In fairness the greatest majority were from Ireland and the UK but a reasonable cross section from the US, Australia, New Zealand, a few from Sweden and one from Finland. These included members, a few bishops, some workers and at least two overseers – one from the US. As to your second question of course none admitted to bitterness or resentment towards those who had left and of course I would not have expected them to regardless of how they felt. On the other hand I had countless accounts from those that I would judge to be reasonable folk who after leaving had experienced a high degree of bitterness and exclusion from those who had even been close friends and some very close family members. I will settle for two examples: In this particular case I knew all of those concerned. A bishop with two sons – one very wild and drinking alcohol excessively and the other got saved and became part of a local evangelical church. The father’s response was that he would rather see the son running wild than the other son involved in a false church. At the launch of my book in one of the venues a woman told me that although she had left the movement more than forty years ago she was still conscious of resentment directed towards her from those within her own family who remained part of the movement. Thanks. I'll stop complaining that you never answer! You didn't really answer the question on the number of innies interviewed, so I suppose you don't want that information out in the public. That said, your answer doesn't back up your assertions that a lot of friends feel "bitter" toward those who left and went to other churches. You got no confirmation from those within (the bishop wasn't bitter, just exclusive and worried his son would never get "right"), and you have taken what exes perceive of the feelings of insiders. The fact is, insiders call exes "bitter" all the time and it's hardly accurate in the vast majority of cases and deservedly so in the cases where someone left after being abused. By far, the feelings toward those who leave and going to other churches are: sadness, fearfulness for their future, and hopelessness. They will also feel fearful that the person will try to push their religion onto them which accounts for some of the backing away. Bitterness.....not so much unless the person does try to convert them to their new church system.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 19, 2014 15:08:05 GMT -5
So you reject the idea of having ‘a living faith in Jesus Christ’ which is what Christianity is all about. When I read your post a portion of Scripture came to mind that I think describes your mind set: [5] having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. [6] For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, [7] always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3:5-7 ESV) There are many who want the blessings of Christianity without the commitment of being a follower of Jesus. On this particular day it is particularly relevant to quote our Lord Jesus Christ: [23] And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. [24] For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. [25] For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? (Luke 9:23-25 ESV) His listeners would have understood perfectly well what Jesus meant. Many times they had watched a man pass by carrying a cross and walking between two Roman soldiers knowing that he was headed for certain death. No, what I reject is your idea that someone could spend many years in the f&w movement and then, only when they leave, "come to a living faith in Christ". Perhaps you could post a portion of Scripture that grants you the ability to determine such. When it comes to arriving at a knowledge of the truth, it's good to think through these words by Mark Twain, "A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows." The corollary of Twain's statement is that if you attend church it's probably because you haven't arrived at a knowledge of the truth. I would find your views more convincing if you had used Scripture as support but then you seem to think of Twain as more authentic.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 19, 2014 15:15:48 GMT -5
Quote - "There are many who want the blessings of Christianity without the commitment of being a follower of Jesus. On this particular day it is particularly relevant to quote our Lord Jesus Christ: And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? (Luke 9:23-25 ESV)"Who do YOU think this verse means, Irvine?The listeners would have had no trouble understanding what Jesus meant because they understood that the cross meant death. We know what the cross meant for Jesus Christ and tomorrow we will celebrate his resurrection. For us it means dying to self and being totally committed to Christ as our Saviour and Lord. [17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. [20] Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. [21] For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21 ESV)
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Post by What Hat on Apr 19, 2014 21:53:33 GMT -5
No, what I reject is your idea that someone could spend many years in the f&w movement and then, only when they leave, "come to a living faith in Christ". Perhaps you could post a portion of Scripture that grants you the ability to determine such. When it comes to arriving at a knowledge of the truth, it's good to think through these words by Mark Twain, "A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows." The corollary of Twain's statement is that if you attend church it's probably because you haven't arrived at a knowledge of the truth. I would find your views more convincing if you had used Scripture as support but then you seem to think of Twain as more authentic. I don't put Mark Twain in the same league as Scripture, but I'd place his opinion above yours, or mine, for that matter. His observation is born out by the evidence, when we think of men like Galileo and Darwin. But what I think Twain really means is that a church doctrine is based on accepting a straightforward premise, while heterodoxy often is based on a logical or intellectual analysis of those beliefs, or based on hard evidence to the contrary. Thus, a fundamentalist church will tell you that the entire Earth was swallowed by the Flood, while science tells you that that is physically impossible. If you think it through you have to come to the conclusion that the entire Earth could not have been completely covered in water, at least not in recent history. So in this example, it's "belief" that will keep you in that church, and "knowledge" that will create unrest, and possibly earn you an exit.
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Post by someguy on Apr 20, 2014 1:31:24 GMT -5
On Youth 323, one young lady was telling about a horrible experience she had on one of the facebook groups (secret world of Truth and Professing open air). She needed encouragement on 323 because of reading so many negative posts on The Secret world of truth group. She accused those people of being unwilling and blaming others. Ammish give up electricity and would some of these willing friends be WILLING to give up their electricity? so, I am bitter. I suppose to some I really am, but to those who know me and still go to meetings, I definitely am not. Well today for instance I spent time with some good friends, and their daughters (who still profess) and had an Easter egg hunt with my wife and children. I don't think they felt I was bitter or felt uncomfortable...but yet I believe this woman who had these feelings and expressed them on youth323 to be correct. Really, to her I probably am bitter, just like I am totally accepting to my friends that I spent time with today who still go to meetings. Who is right, well I guess we both are. I was bitter. I am not bitter any more. But to someone looking on, and listening to my conversation about meetings who still goes and loves meetings, will probably think I am bitter. To others who know me and my wife they will know I don't have any negative feelings towards the church I was once raised in. So, what does this say? It says that this lady who expressed these feelings may be right and she may also be wrong. For those in meetings who are strongly attached to meetings and have limited contact with those of us now on the outside, any negative thing we say is an attack. Yet for those inside or out who have thought about these things and listened intently to what we have to say, they will probably realize I am not that negative at all. Meh just another opinion...night.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 20, 2014 13:45:07 GMT -5
So there is no negativity with those that go to meeting still its only the ex's !!!! i must be living in a perfect group cause i'm not seeing it or people are hiding it from me...i meet with 3 of the elders once a month outside of meeting and there is rarely anything they say thats negative other than prices are high, gas ain't cheap...etc..etc... Is that so unusual?
When I was in the **TRUTH** no one talked about the spiritual "outside" of meetings, (just secular comment like you stated, "prices are high, gas ain't cheap...etc..etc..." ) and avoided any mention of scripture.
Then in the meeting no one spoke of anything secular & never strayed off in anything other than that the usual spiritual formula.
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Post by gecko45 on Apr 20, 2014 22:27:24 GMT -5
I wonder if folks who are still within the 2x2 system would be more likely to speak candidly an outsider such at "irvinegrey" than they would to a fellow insider, even one they trust.
A good way to marginalize yourself within the 2x2 system is to make any comment that would disagree with the "Keep calm and carry on" philosophy.
In my own experience, there were people who had a few minor grievances and they had been somewhat candid in my presence prior to my days in the work. After going in the work I never heard a word from them that would suggest they were anything but 100% satisfied. Then after having left the work I was again privy to complaints from those within the system. None I have talked to or heard from would I consider "bitter" but then I am still within the system and well aware of what can be the result of failing to keep up appearances of being 100% satisfied. With there being a noticeable discrepancy between how candid people were to a worker vs regular friend, then a complete outsider might get a more honest answer (especially if they promised anonymity, which may, or may, not be the case).
To be "bitter" towards those who have left is certainly not the proper answer that a good 2x2 would be expected to give. Proper answers would be more along the lines of....
"We feel sorry for them because......." they are missing so much they will never be happy they will never forget the joy of being in the fold God might stop speaking to them etc
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Post by christiansburg on May 5, 2014 8:35:00 GMT -5
Throughout my research for my thesis (and subsequent book) Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement I had many accounts related to me of the bitterness that emanated from those within the 2x2 movement against those who left. Those who leave the movement fall into different categories but can be broadly divided into two main areas. There are those who leave when they realise that the movement is theologically flawed and they come to a living faith in Christ and become involved in another church group. Then there are those leave the movement and are without faith and simply drift along, some going into atheism. The bitterness from those within the movement seems to be more directed against those who come to a living faith in Christ and are involved in an evangelical church. Good to see your comments Irvine. Hope you are doing well. But just for the record here I have seen many people come and go during my almost 58 years now and I can say that I have no bitterness toward anyone who has left or anyone in the group. Some of those in the group are sometime quite harsh but I don't try to reconcile their problems. I realize the only important thing is that all of us no matter where we are are responsible for WHAT we are.
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Post by Annan on May 5, 2014 9:29:49 GMT -5
I know quite a bit how people end up atheists despite what you may think so I have clear idea as to how they reached their worldview. I have lots of friends who are atheists, others agnostics and we have fairly lively but agreeable discussions. You say that atheism comes from examining religion, etc. This is partly true but what I find on most occasions with those who reject Christianity is that they will have read just about everything that rejects Christianity but rarely have they read the Bible in any detail. They will have read Dawkins and others from times past and are prepared to accept the authenticity of their theses. Few, if any, will have read Professor Alister McGrath’s response to Dawkin’s God Delusion or watched the debate between Professor John Lennox and Richard Dawkins in Alabama a few years ago. Atheism is every bit as much a religion as any other worldview. No, Irvine, you do not have a clue as to how people end up Atheist. Some folks are Atheists from the start. Some folks were never indoctrinated Christians, as in my case. I've read many books on the Atheism vs Christianity debate. They do nothing for me. They do not explain why I am Atheist. I do not need to debunk Christianity to sustain my Atheist viewpoint. And I have read the Bible. I was not open to its message, which may be why it did not make any impression on me other than to make me shake my head in disbelief. I realize many a Christian may do the same when attempting to read a book on Atheism. Believe what you want, but me thinks your definition of religion falls short here.
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