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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 17:47:35 GMT -5
How is "our version of Jesus is our only message" only relevant to the 2x2's Ross. As an outsider I see that to be relevant with all Christian denominations. That's what they think. I rarely agree with Bert, but I think he does have a point this time and your comment that makes it look like your Church knows better makes me chuckle. And on it goes. Snow - it is not just relevant to the Christian church that I attend. One thing that is common among all Christian denominations is who Jesus is. The only sects that I know of that do not uphold one God in three persons and Jesus as God, Lord, Ruler, King etc are the 2x2's. Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormans and the Christadelphians (and they don't believe in grace). So Christian denominations simply do not differ on who Jesus is. They might differ on some other things but who Jesus is isn't one of them. This issue was and is so important to the Christian church that beliefs around this area determined whether a church was Christian or whether people who didn't believe it were in fact Christians. I think Bert is great value but I think at the moment Bert will call Jesus many wonderful things but he doesn't seem to call Him God or King. Christians globally naturally have a problem with this because they believe that it undermines Christ and brings Him down to man's level - it emphasises His humanity at the expense of His divinity or deity. It suits a sect that wants to elevate their particular style of belief system or ministry. As a result this fundamental issue is often a starting point of the "what do you believe" conversation? After all, it is called Christianity. You can believe what you want, but I think you need a lesson in the HISTORY of this war among Christians. Like sounding more Catholic than the pope, this kind of talk makes one sound more Christian than Jesus.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 17:51:02 GMT -5
The Trinity is a Pagan concept, according to the Early Church Fathers, and Saint Augustine confessed that there is no foundation for the Trinity in the scriptures. Yes, but no one now will acknowledge that piece of information. Yet they feel they have the right to tell denominations that don't believe it that they are wrong. Or, go as far as Irvine and say they are a cult. It's politics -- it's an $80 billion tax free business in this country, and they're not about loosen their hold on it.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 20:06:09 GMT -5
I agree that the major Christian denominations have not covered themselves in glory - far from it and that there are many aspects of pagan worship that came in, some deliberately and others that have crept in over time. The Bible however is very clear on who Jesus is. In an effort to distance themselves from other "false denominations" the 2x2's have concerning Jesus thrown the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. Jesus is far more than the 2x2's preach. I understand that it is easy to be cynical about large churches being tax free businesses pedalling their own theology and politics. All Christianity is not like that. There are thousands of christian churches, both denominational and non-denominational all over the world who are not steeped in pagan worship, are not tax free money making machines and not pedalling their own major variations on the Bible. One of the wonderful things about God's work in our age is that when a Christian church goes off the rails (like the 2x2's and others) people leave and join new churches. If the one I go to departs from the truth I'll be out of there along with many others as well. It's happened that way throughout human history. I'm not cynical about large churches at all -- they have a great thing going if you're into that. And I don't think any denomination (or non-denomination, which now is practically another denomination) is pedaling its own theology -- party politics, yes frequently. They're naively preaching a doctrine intentionally designed to satisfy a political, non-spiritual problem in the Roman Empire. Actually the only thing I was referring to is the popular concept of the "Trinity". It did not originate in scripture -- according to the people who promoted it, it came from Greek (Pagan) philosophy. I didn't make that up -- their writings are preserved, it's just that they're selective quoted. But just as importantly, it was the politics of the Roman Empire that decided and enforced that theology throughout the empire and fought wars to get rid of anything that disagreed. And the Bible you read contains literature they intentionally selected to support their theology. Even the pope has acknowledged that Christians have a Greek concept of god.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 20:21:18 GMT -5
Thanks Bob - I understand and have read the pagan arguments. There are many pagan traditions that have influenced church worship and traditions. However, I think the concept of Jesus as Lord, God, Saviour, Redeemer, King is well articulated in Scripture. One could argue I'm sure that the Church controlled the development of the Canon but in my opinion if I dismiss this view of Jesus I also have to dismiss the Bible - which I'm not about to do. Why would you mention dismissing the Bible? I wasn't talking about that.
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 14, 2014 20:24:29 GMT -5
The more the focus is put on other people in the system, controllers etc, and the less on Jesus, the greater the potential for control, which means retention and growth.The greater the control, the shorter the period of retention or growth of numbers.
Churches will struggle with this balance, and to a certain extent it will be doctrine by "reaction to a falling away", doctrine by numbers. For example, once Masses were in Latin, the numbers in the Leity determined a change was required. Now a Mass is somewhat less formal.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 20:26:45 GMT -5
Thanks Bob - I understand and have read the pagan arguments. There are many pagan traditions that have influenced church worship and traditions. To be clear, I was not referring to Pagan arguments. I was only referring to writings of people who decided Christian theology. When there is an argument about Pagan influences in Christianity, it is an argument among Christians. Pagans couldn't care less.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 20:29:27 GMT -5
The more the focus is put on other people in the system, controllers etc, and the less on Jesus, the greater the potential for control, which means retention and growth.The greater the control, the shorter the period of retention or growth of numbers. Churches will struggle with this balance, and to a certain extent it will be doctrine by "reaction to a falling away", doctrine by numbers. For example, once Masses were in Latin, the numbers in the Leity determined a change was required. Now a Mass is somewhat less formal. Do you think the laity made that decision?
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 14, 2014 20:54:38 GMT -5
No, but the shrinking numbers would have had some influence in forcing an evaluation
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 21:08:55 GMT -5
No, but the shrinking numbers would have had some influence in forcing an evaluation That's called "domesticating" the religion. All religions do that.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 22:07:16 GMT -5
In the early years, many Pagans, Pharisees and what have you were converted. Not surprising that a lot of these influences came into Christianity. I think the Pagans that converted definitely cared at the time - it seems to appease the people (and perhaps Himself) that Constantine allowed many pagan influences to come into Christianity to appease the people. Agree that those who didn't accept Christianity probably didn't worry about but they were possibly miffed and amused that Christians had taken over their turf and practices and made some of them mainstream. [/quote] Probably sounds good, but not exactly.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 14, 2014 22:42:41 GMT -5
You can believe what you want, but I think you need a lesson in the HISTORY of this war among Christians. Like sounding more Catholic than the pope, this kind of talk makes one sound more Christian than Jesus. Bob, I have studied the history although I'm sure you are far better versed in it than I. I agree that the major Christian denominations have not covered themselves in glory - far from it and that there are many aspects of pagan worship that came in, some deliberately and others that have crept in over time. The Bible however is very clear on who Jesus is. In an effort to distance themselves from other "false denominations" the 2x2's have concerning Jesus thrown the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. Jesus is far more than the 2x2's preach. I understand that it is easy to be cynical about large churches being tax free businesses pedalling their own theology and politics. All Christianity is not like that. There are thousands of christian churches, both denominational and non-denominational all over the world who are not steeped in pagan worship, are not tax free money making machines and not pedalling their own major variations on the Bible. One of the wonderful things about God's work in our age is that when a Christian church goes off the rails (like the 2x2's and others) people leave and join new churches. If the one I go to departs from the truth I'll be out of there along with many others as well. It's happened that way throughout human history. Ross Bowden said: "There are thousands of christian churches, both denominational and non-denominational all over the world who are not steeped in pagan worship, are not tax free money making machines and not pedaling their own major variations on the Bible."
Ross, can you name one of those churches?
One church that is completely "free" of pagan worship? One church that is NOT sitting on tax-free property? One church that has their income is taxed? One church that goes exactly by the bible, without any variation, (major or minor) on the bible?
Does your statement apply to the church that you go to now?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 23:43:37 GMT -5
Plenty of churches free from pagan worship - my own (christchurch.com.au) and many other evangelical reformed churches. You've missed my point completely -- the theology of evangelical churches is as Pagan as any other church. All of Western Christianity is imbued with Pagan theology -- to the point where most Christians have no clue where it came from, as long as someone can reconcile it with the Bible. Christians even think they worship the god of the Old Testament. Only Jews and Muslims worship that god these days.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 14, 2014 23:52:48 GMT -5
Ross Bowden said: "There are thousands of christian churches, both denominational and non-denominational all over the world who are not steeped in pagan worship, are not tax free money making machines and not pedaling their own major variations on the Bible."
Ross, can you name one of those churches?
One church that is completely "free" of pagan worship? One church that is NOT sitting on tax-free property? One church that has their income is taxed? One church that goes exactly by the bible, without any variation, (major or minor) on the bible?
Does your statement apply to the church that you go to now?
Plenty of churches free from pagan worship - my own (christchurch.com.au) and many other evangelical reformed churches.
I didn't say that none were sitting on tax-free property (most churches have this) but most churches in a tax free environment struggle to cover their costs. There are obvious exceptions. There are many churches that are not tax free money making machines, including where I attend. Just for the record, most churches in Australia are operated solely by donations by people which are generally not tax deductible. This income is generally matched by expenses in the year - there are very small (often just a few thousand dollars) operating surpluses. Businesses which don't generate profits also don't pay tax.
There are many churches (including the one that I attend) do not stray from core accepted Christian doctrine. They will vary on minor issues, style of worship etc but not on the major elements.
Every year we have conventions at Katoomba (kcc.org.au) where christians across many denominations attend. Sure there aren't many Catholics that attend but as I have said previously it is nice to worship with fellow Christians from across numerous denominations and be all "one in Christ Jesus".
It is easy to have a negative view of individual churches but across the globe Christ is at work in His church, drawing people to Himself and changing people. I don't know of a more influential person in human history and he is still actively at work today until He returns.
Why don't you try going through everything about the "christchurch " church & cut out anything that could be pagan to see if it is completely "free from pagan worship." I doubt very much that you find that it is free.
When a church is setting on tax free property, and as you said, most of them do, it is denying tax income that others in the community have to pay taxes to make up for it the none taxed property.
Minor issues too some perhaps, but are what happened to Christianity from the beginning. In time they became major dividing issues.
"Sure there aren't many Catholics" No, that was the first division.
Jesus only became an "influential person" because of many issues not even related to him or his message.
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Post by fred on Apr 15, 2014 0:06:16 GMT -5
Plenty of churches free from pagan worship - my own (christchurch.com.au) and many other evangelical reformed churches.
I didn't say that none were sitting on tax-free property (most churches have this) but most churches in a tax free environment struggle to cover their costs. There are obvious exceptions. There are many churches that are not tax free money making machines, including where I attend. Just for the record, most churches in Australia are operated solely by donations by people which are generally not tax deductible. This income is generally matched by expenses in the year - there are very small (often just a few thousand dollars) operating surpluses. Businesses which don't generate profits also don't pay tax.
There are many churches (including the one that I attend) do not stray from core accepted Christian doctrine. They will vary on minor issues, style of worship etc but not on the major elements.
Every year we have conventions at Katoomba (kcc.org.au) where christians across many denominations attend. Sure there aren't many Catholics that attend but as I have said previously it is nice to worship with fellow Christians from across numerous denominations and be all "one in Christ Jesus".
It is easy to have a negative view of individual churches but across the globe Christ is at work in His church, drawing people to Himself and changing people. I don't know of a more influential person in human history and he is still actively at work today until He returns.
Why don't you try going through everything about the "christchurch " church & cut out anything that could be pagan to see if it is completely "free from pagan worship." I doubt very much that you find that it is free.
When a church is setting on tax free property, and as you said, most of them do, it is denying tax income that others in the community have to pay taxes to make up for it the none taxed property.
Minor issues too some perhaps, but are what happened to Christianity from the beginning. In time they became major dividing issues.
"Sure there aren't many Catholics" No, that was the first division.
Jesus only became an "influential person" because of many issues not even related to him or his message.
Sure, churches in Australia are 'tax free', meaning they don't pay income tax - but as Ross points out neither do businesses if they don't make a profit. Australia doesn't have property taxes as you understand them - we pay 'rates' to local councils which cover amenities and some local infrastructure. I'm not sure that churches are exempt from these service charges. I'm not sure about Ross' church, but many modern 'church' buildings are functional centres for worship without looking much like a traditional church.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 15, 2014 1:04:59 GMT -5
Why don't you try going through everything about the "christchurch " church & cut out anything that could be pagan to see if it is completely "free from pagan worship." I doubt very much that you find that it is free.
When a church is setting on tax free property, and as you said, most of them do, it is denying tax income that others in the community have to pay taxes to make up for it the none taxed property.
Minor issues too some perhaps, but are what happened to Christianity from the beginning. In time they became major dividing issues.
"Sure there aren't many Catholics" No, that was the first division.
Jesus only became an "influential person" because of many issues not even related to him or his message.
Sure, churches in Australia are 'tax free', meaning they don't pay income tax - but as Ross points out neither do businesses if they don't make a profit. Australia doesn't have property taxes as you understand them - we pay 'rates' to local councils which cover amenities and some local infrastructure. I'm not sure that churches are exempt from these service charges. I'm not sure about Ross' church, but many modern 'church' buildings are functional centres for worship without looking much like a traditional church. I was not expressing concern about churches not being taxed -- I was explaining what interest churches have in the status quo, and the disincentive it is to bother knowing where their theology really comes from and thereby upset their own apple cart, so to speak. I'm saying that the people who promoted modern western Christian theology in the beginning actually wrote that they took it from Greek theology/philosophy (now mythology), and the Roman Empire enforced its acceptance. Ross' church, unless it is some really offbeat church, has that kind of Christian theology. BTW, we have "rates" here too, they just call them taxes too. And no, churches don't pay them here.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 15, 2014 2:24:15 GMT -5
Another hymnwriter puts it: 'If I have Jesus, Jesus Only, I possess a cluster rare. He is the lily to the Valley and the Rose of Sharon fair.' The way of salvation is Jesus plus nothing equals everything. We come to God in repentance through Jesus Christ as our substitute because of His finished work at Calvary and then we receive the Holy Spirit. It is grace alone through Christ alone.
The doctrine of the Trinity is pivotal in our salvation – God the Father planned it; God the Son accomplished in and God the Holy Spirit applies it. All three being co-equal and co-eternal. Surely that warms our hearts! We find this doctrine clearly laid out in the prologue of John’s Gospel, John 1:1-18 and an excellent synopsis of New Testament doctrine in the King James version of 1 Timothy 3:16, And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2014 2:32:05 GMT -5
Why don't you try going through everything about the "christchurch " church & cut out anything that could be pagan to see if it is completely "free from pagan worship." I doubt very much that you find that it is free.
When a church is setting on tax free property, and as you said, most of them do, it is denying tax income that others in the community have to pay taxes to make up for it the none taxed property.
Minor issues too some perhaps, but are what happened to Christianity from the beginning. In time they became major dividing issues.
"Sure there aren't many Catholics" No, that was the first division.
Jesus only became an "influential person" because of many issues not even related to him or his message.
Sure, churches in Australia are 'tax free', meaning they don't pay income tax - but as Ross points out neither do businesses if they don't make a profit. Australia doesn't have property taxes as you understand them - we pay 'rates' to local councils which cover amenities and some local infrastructure. I'm not sure that churches are exempt from these service charges. I'm not sure about Ross' church, but many modern 'church' buildings are functional centres for worship without looking much like a traditional church. I don't know about Australia property tax. In the US many towns will have a church on nearly every corner of the town square, prime property but pay no property taxes. Property taxes pay a good part of our public schools. The pay for the "amenities and some local infrastructure."
When churches don't contribute anything, the rest of the tax payers have to make up for that lack.
What is the difference between "modern 'church' buildings are functional centers for worship" and a church?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 15, 2014 4:14:09 GMT -5
You've missed my point completely -- the theology of evangelical churches is as Pagan as any other church. All of Western Christianity is imbued with Pagan theology -- to the point where most Christians have no clue where it came from, as long as someone can reconcile it with the Bible. Christians even think they worship the god of the Old Testament. Only Jews and Muslims worship that god these days. Bob, my God is the God of the OT and NT. They are the same. I don't know any Christians that think differently. Maybe I need to get out more You're right -- the vast majority of Christians think the same. I don't know about theological seminaries in Australia, but I know that most of the ones in the US teach what I've mentioned -- but congregations and most of the preachers aren't interested in knowing anything about that. In the last couple of centuries Christianity has come to be more about "feelings" than "knowledge" -- it makes for a lot of religious illiterates. Will see what I can do for you.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 15, 2014 6:22:41 GMT -5
Not ONE of us here, are not affected by paganism. Is that supposed to be bad? The days of the week are named after pagan "gods", if you wear are ring , you are affected . MANY pagan "practises" amongst all of us, but so what? It is part of our "history". I don't know if any one of us WORSHIP these "practises", but for sure we are affected, and maybe even "infected" as some would suggest. How could we somehow "cleanse" ourselves of this ? Let's call Thor's day, "customer appreciation day" or ? Alvin hey, that was supposed to be a happy face
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2014 10:07:51 GMT -5
You've missed my point completely -- the theology of evangelical churches is as Pagan as any other church. All of Western Christianity is imbued with Pagan theology -- to the point where most Christians have no clue where it came from, as long as someone can reconcile it with the Bible. Christians even think they worship the god of the Old Testament. Only Jews and Muslims worship that god these days. Bob, my God is the God of the OT and NT. They are the same. I don't know any Christians that think differently. Maybe I need to get out more Maybe you can PM me on why you believe the theology of evangelical churches is as pagan as any other church. Maybe because Christianity is all based on pagan worship?
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2014 10:10:38 GMT -5
Not ONE of us here, are not affected by paganism. Is that supposed to be bad? The days of the week are named after pagan "gods", if you wear are ring , you are affected . MANY pagan "practises" amongst all of us, but so what? It is part of our "history". I don't know if any one of us WORSHIP these "practises", but for sure we are affected, and maybe even "infected" as some would suggest. How could we somehow "cleanse" ourselves of this ? Let's call Thor's day, "customer appreciation day" or ? Alvin hey, that was supposed to be a happy face I don't think anyone is saying there is anything wrong with Christianity being mostly pagan. It's just very naive to believe that Christianity does not consist of a lot of pagan beliefs and practices. That's all.
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Post by xna on Apr 15, 2014 10:23:34 GMT -5
Not ONE of us here, are not affected by paganism. Is that supposed to be bad? The days of the week are named after pagan "gods", if you wear are ring , you are affected . MANY pagan "practises" amongst all of us, but so what? It is part of our "history". I don't know if any one of us WORSHIP these "practises", but for sure we are affected, and maybe even "infected" as some would suggest. How could we somehow "cleanse" ourselves of this ? Let's call Thor's day, "customer appreciation day" or ? Alvin hey, that was supposed to be a happy face I don't think anyone is saying there is anything wrong with Christianity being mostly pagan. It's just very naive to believe that Christianity does not consist of a lot of pagan beliefs and practices. That's all. I' m not giving up my chocolate Easter bunnies!
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2014 12:39:59 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is saying there is anything wrong with Christianity being mostly pagan. It's just very naive to believe that Christianity does not consist of a lot of pagan beliefs and practices. That's all. I' m not giving up my chocolate Easter bunnies! haha, me neither!!
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