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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 10, 2014 1:02:45 GMT -5
So when you say "that really burns my butt".....you really know what you are talking about! The concept is lodged deep in the cerebral cortex. Is that where your cerebral cortex is?
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Post by What Hat on Apr 10, 2014 8:49:09 GMT -5
What is the old saying? “Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.” I’m probably about the last person in this world to address this, as I have had a pretty good life. I am 55 years old, never been hospitalized, and have only ever had the occasional cold or flu. On a physical level (at least) I have had far fewer challenges in this life than most people. On a psychological/emotional level, now, that might be less clear. This is something I have been learning: Anything you resist leads to suffering. The minute that you accept “This is the way it is; deal with it”, the "suffering" is gone (though the pain may not be), and all that energy is instantly available to you change things/deal with things (if that is what you want). Aside from people who are into S&M, you are probably extremely rare in your appreciation of pain that cannot be willed away -- and, I should add, the pain of mental anguish. The other side of this is that Sharon has never been severely ill, and I agree with her to a point. The difference between your viewpoint and hers may be gender-influenced. There is another old saying, and it might be prevalent only in our area, and that is "men are wusses when it comes to pain". This observation has nothing to do with our attitudes when we are either brave, or foolish, as the case may be, in the moment of crisis, in which, as every Hollywood movie ever made will show, we men are exemplary. This observation is based on how we act afterward, the part that never gets on the screen. Women also have this thing called "childbirth" and it's very difficult to one-up that one in the pain category, as we are periodically reminded when this subject comes up for discussion. For myself I have had episodic acute back pain, fortunately in the decline since I began to take active measures to prevent it. However, when I do have a milder episode, even now, I completely wilt. I have to drop my agenda, whatever it is, and retreat into the shadows until I recover. I saw this same effect just yesterday when an English soccer star (for Southampton, I think) was taken off the field in a stretcher, probably with a broken leg, his World Cup prospects, and his excellent season, likely finished. His face showed complete and utter defeat; the pain surely would not help.
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Post by jondough on Apr 10, 2014 9:21:25 GMT -5
As far as suffering, success, and things of this nature in this life...I would have to say I think a lot like an Atheist. What happens - happens by circumstance, chance, and of course are results of our own actions. I feel God allows it all to happen as the cards may fall. He doesn't "cause" any of it.... But.....
He sent Jesus to tell us the "Good News"......that is.....Whatever our circumstance may be - there is something far greater that we can look forward to! So great, that whatever our circumstance is - it will pale in comparison. a million years from now, we won't hardly remember the pain and suffering (if that is our circumstance)....if we do, it will be a faint memory....kind of like when we skinned our knee as a kid. Now that really is Good News!
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Post by jondough on Apr 10, 2014 9:30:43 GMT -5
Are you saying that the F&W see the suffering of "dennisj" as god at work? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk everything happens for a reason... I agree.... Like, if we loose our business, it was due to bad business decisions. Or, if we get cancer...probably was hereditary, but not always...Sometimes the luck of the draw. Or a lightning strikes us....We were probably outside when we shouldn't have been. Or we were burned in an oven by a Nazi....It was Because we were the wrong ethnicity, and a evil man figured out the physiological make up of humans, and convinced them to think as him, or to act in fear, and followed his orders to do so.
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Post by snow on Apr 10, 2014 12:22:22 GMT -5
some of them probably. Many Christians seem to think suffering is necessary. Not true. It's just a part of life. Doesn't do anything other than cause pain. I know because I live daily with lots of it and will till I die. The American Protestant attitude is that God causes righteous people to prosper financially. And if you aren't prosperous then the word is 'you are not righteous'. What the suffering mindset says basically is that anyone that is suffering is suffering because they aren't righteous enough and are being punished in the hopes that they will mend their ways and be more righteous so God can allow them to prosper of heal them. Utter craziness, but most of religion nowadays is.
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Post by snow on Apr 10, 2014 12:24:30 GMT -5
i feel bad that hitler choose the wrong path and is now burning in hell for it...just as i feel bad for murders, thiefs, habitual liers...etc...that go to hell also, in my world its a terrible place to go... This strikes me as a rather judgmental opinion. How do you know Hitler, murderers, thiefs, habitual liars are in hell? Do you have some knowledge no one else has? Are you saying your God is not merciful?
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Post by snow on Apr 10, 2014 12:29:15 GMT -5
It seems that children often don't really learn a lesson, like staying away from a hot stove, unless they learn it the hard way. I still remember vividly how I learned to stay away from hot things. When I was 3 or 4 years old in Holland we had no indoor plumbing and so we children would use a porcelain chamberpot. Now Mom, said "don't get too close to the coal stove", but sitting with my pants down, and a cold mostly unheated house, the inevitable happened. This was my first actual experience with something burning my butt, although at a metaphorical level it has happened many times since. The fortunate part is that I suffered no lasting injuries. So that incident has a good upside in that I learned a lasting lesson, but I wouldn't say it was a "good" way to learn. Better to "obey" the dictates of your parents or common sense than learn things the hard way. Thus suffering itself is never good, but it seems to be unavoidable. I don't think I had empathy for the illness and suffering of others, until I had suffered from some medical issues myself. Suffering, in the general sense, does seem to bring out many fine human qualities. But suffering in the specific instance should be avoided. I once heard a gentleman arguing that cancer was a really good thing, because it brought so many back to God. That is a perverse way of thinking. Cancer is terrible, awful, and it is unfortunate that it sometimes takes cancer to change people or families for the better. That is not the route by which we want to get to a better place. Another perversity is that people may be afraid to complain about suffering, because they think it is God's Will and suffering is good. That's silly; you should always want suffering to end. Go ahead and complain, at least to anyone who will listen. Suffering is never good, even though it may have good effects. My own belief is that God does not want anyone to suffer, but sometimes suffering is what it takes. That's to our discredit and not the way God wants things to go. In exactly the same way no good parent wishes their child to burn their butt on a hot coal stove. What is the old saying? “Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.” I’m probably about the last person in this world to address this, as I have had a pretty good life. I am 55 years old, never been hospitalized, and have only ever had the occasional cold or flu. On a physical level (at least) I have had far fewer challenges in this life than most people. On a psychological/emotional level, now, that might be less clear. This is something I have been learning: Anything you resist leads to suffering. The minute that you accept “This is the way it is; deal with it”, the "suffering" is gone (though the pain may not be), and all that energy is instantly available to you change things/deal with things (if that is what you want). Very good Sharon. I agree. Being one that has pretty high levels of chronic pain all the time, I know that it doesn't need to be 'suffering'. I have come to accept it, live with it and it's limitations, and every so often I slip into the pity party mode where I do indeed suffer. When I come out of that, because it doesn't feel like a good place to live, I then can truly say that I don't suffer. It took me awhile to understand this after the accident, and I still slip from time to time, but it's good to have a reference to a place where I can enjoy life to revert back to when I flip into the pity me suffering mode. Because no matter how much pain I am in I know life is still so enjoyable and I am blessed with wonderful people and experiences.
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Post by snow on Apr 10, 2014 12:31:35 GMT -5
What is the old saying? “Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.” I’m probably about the last person in this world to address this, as I have had a pretty good life. I am 55 years old, never been hospitalized, and have only ever had the occasional cold or flu. On a physical level (at least) I have had far fewer challenges in this life than most people. On a psychological/emotional level, now, that might be less clear. This is something I have been learning: Anything you resist leads to suffering. The minute that you accept “This is the way it is; deal with it”, the "suffering" is gone (though the pain may not be), and all that energy is instantly available to you change things/deal with things (if that is what you want). Aside from people who are into S&M, you are probably extremely rare in your appreciation of pain that cannot be willed away -- and, I should add, the pain of mental anguish. Speaking personally, physical pain is much easier to ignore than mental pain. That takes a lot of work.
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Post by rational on Apr 10, 2014 15:14:28 GMT -5
everything happens for a reason... There are events without cause.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 15:44:14 GMT -5
it may at first appear to be a random event but i think that time will prove out that it was not random...
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Post by xna on Apr 10, 2014 15:45:43 GMT -5
everything happens for a reason... There are events without cause. Of this you speak? youtu.be/qY0EHI3Hg_Q
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Post by rational on Apr 10, 2014 15:49:40 GMT -5
it may at first appear to be a random event but i think that time will prove out that it was not random... At first it may appear to be the work of a paranormal being but every test shows it is just random events.
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Post by xna on Apr 10, 2014 16:37:10 GMT -5
it may at first appear to be a random event but i think that time will prove out that it was not random... When we believe in God the Almighty, NOTHING happens by chance or LUCK. God has a plan and purpose for each of believer in Christ when we put our trust in Him to map out his plan for ourlives. God knew the prophets Isa. Zach. and Paul when they were in the wombs of their mothers and He had a plan mapped out for their lives. Paul was a chosen vessel to bring the gospel to the Gentiles nations.Suffering is one of the tools in God's toolbox? Yes, it is... Sufferings must proceed the glory! What we suffer today is nothing compare to the early Christians faced! They were thrown into the Roman arena with the Lion to be eaten for entertainment, the bodies soaked with oil and lit up as torches during Nero time. Sufferings, trials, hardships come into our lives to test/increase our LOVE, faith, and loyalty to God.I think it's biblically correct that god uses pain and suffering in the here and now, and it's the devil who implements gods plan of eternal pain and suffering. If so, then isn't the devil doing gods work?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 17:53:09 GMT -5
As far as suffering, success, and things of this nature in this life...I would have to say I think a lot like an Atheist. What happens - happens by circumstance, chance, and of course are results of our own actions. I feel God allows it all to happen as the cards may fall. He doesn't "cause" any of it.... But..... That certainly fits my worldview. I see the Laws of Nature set in motion and it all interacts from there. While I see that everything happens for a reason, the reason is the result of a long complex set of interactions (which may be termed as "random" but events aren't truly random) rather than a manipulating deity pulling strings on all the puppets. God, in whatever form and space he occupies, is a pretty hands-off manager and lets the laws of nature direct the course of events. I think my view allows me to better accept events beyond my control with a greater equanimity than if I was trying to second guess why God was making a string of crazy things happen.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 10, 2014 19:18:44 GMT -5
Aside from people who are into S&M, you are probably extremely rare in your appreciation of pain that cannot be willed away -- and, I should add, the pain of mental anguish. The other side of this is that Sharon has never been severely ill, and I agree with her to a point. The difference between your viewpoint and hers may be gender-influenced. There is another old saying, and it might be prevalent only in our area, and that is "men are wusses when it comes to pain". This observation has nothing to do with our attitudes when we are either brave, or foolish, as the case may be, in the moment of crisis, in which, as every Hollywood movie ever made will show, we men are exemplary. This observation is based on how we act afterward, the part that never gets on the screen. Women also have this thing called "childbirth" and it's very difficult to one-up that one in the pain category, as we are periodically reminded when this subject comes up for discussion. For myself I have had episodic acute back pain, fortunately in the decline since I began to take active measures to prevent it. However, when I do have a milder episode, even now, I completely wilt. I have to drop my agenda, whatever it is, and retreat into the shadows until I recover. I saw this same effect just yesterday when an English soccer star (for Southampton, I think) was taken off the field in a stretcher, probably with a broken leg, his World Cup prospects, and his excellent season, likely finished. His face showed complete and utter defeat; the pain surely would not help. Actually "pain" is not all there is to evil. Visit anywhere outside a high class neighborhood where everything is hidden from public scrutiny and you will find all kinds of evil -- if you stop and smell the roses, so to speak. Evil is as simple as catching the bird flu from walking under the wrong tree.
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Post by rational on Apr 10, 2014 19:23:36 GMT -5
it may at first appear to be a random event but i think that time will prove out that it was not random... When we believe in God the Almighty, NOTHING happens by chance or LUCK.When you believe in a paranormal being you believe nothing happens by chance or LUCK. Your beliefs do not change reality. This was not only the fate of early christians. God must have been punishing everyone! Yeah, and in med school they often cut off the arms and legs of interns and shoot strangers through the stomach just to see how good the upcoming surgeons are. Why would anyone want to follow a god that did this? If the leader of a country did this you would be clamoring to have them removed.
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Post by faune on Apr 10, 2014 19:52:12 GMT -5
Aside from people who are into S&M, you are probably extremely rare in your appreciation of pain that cannot be willed away -- and, I should add, the pain of mental anguish. Speaking personally, physical pain is much easier to ignore than mental pain. That takes a lot of work. Snow ~ I agree. Emotional pain can be like quicksand ~ the more you struggle with it, the deeper in you go. However, once you accept whatever it is that is causing the anxiety and decide to deal with it realistically and accept your fate, it seems the emotional stress dissipates once a course of action is decided and we get moving in that direction? Perhaps a lot of emotional pain is caused by getting stuck in the mud and feeling overwhelmed by your circumstances. But, once you put your mind to work and devise a plan of attack, it's amazing how soon you can get back on a normal plateau again?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 20:38:13 GMT -5
When I professed I saw God allowing suffering as a tool he used to test people and cause people to cry out to Him. God seemed to have no problem with Job's suffering. It was reported that Mother Teresa in her house for the dying also used suffering as a tool in hopes it would help them cry out to God and be saved. I have changed my mind on suffering. Some suffering is good. For example a kid puts his hand on a hot stove even thought he is told not to. His suffering prevents him from doing that agin, but unnecessary suffering should be prevented when possible. Thanks for bringing up this subject. I was thinking about this today during my workout...what is it about suffering and "no pain no gain" type of thinking. I'm with you: I've changed my mind about suffering. Maybe that's just what happens as we get older, but I don't know. Maybe as we get older we have less TOLERANCE for suffering? Anyways, I remember years ago when I taught aerobics class I actually encouraged people to 'go for the burn'. When you workout a muscle or muscle group to the burning phase, you know you are going to make progress in toning up, getting more fit, and building muscle. I was also taught many many years ago in high school that we build muscle when we tear it down(which involves pain). (grimace). Pain is part of life, I guess. But I've spent a good portion of my life trying to relieve pain(??)...so sometimes I feel a bit confused. Pain must have a purpose and I think it does as in your example of the kid learning not to touch hot burners, etc. And yet, it seems that we cannot go through life expecting we will not have any pain or suffering. Some people are very stoic and take pride in being stoic. I can't fault them for trying not to be wimpy and stuff, but at the same time, I wish sometimes they would just give in and accept some sort of pain relief...as their suffering is also experienced by their loved ones and the people around them. Sure, I guess it's something to be proud of: and mentality of toughing it out and surviving, etc. But, what some people don't realize is that as they suffer, the people who care about them also suffer... I have much more I could say on this subject, but that's enough for now...fwiw-bop
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 10, 2014 20:50:01 GMT -5
Just like in schools the teachers give out quizzes, tests, and exams to see how much we understand the subjects/lessons ourselves to improve our knowledge, skills. [/font][/quote] Teachers do not give quizzes, tests, and exams to improve our knowledge -- they give them to see if they (the teachers) have succeeded in their job. You do not fatten the pig by weighing it, as teachers continuously have to remind the people who are running the education show.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 10, 2014 20:57:38 GMT -5
When I professed I saw God allowing suffering as a tool he used to test people and cause people to cry out to Him. God seemed to have no problem with Job's suffering. It was reported that Mother Teresa in her house for the dying also used suffering as a tool in hopes it would help them cry out to God and be saved. I have changed my mind on suffering. Some suffering is good. For example a kid puts his hand on a hot stove even thought he is told not to. His suffering prevents him from doing that agin, but unnecessary suffering should be prevented when possible. Thanks for bringing up this subject. I was thinking about this today during my workout...what is it about suffering and "no pain no gain" type of thinking. I'm with you: I've changed my mind about suffering. Maybe that's just what happens as we get older, but I don't know. Maybe as we get older we have less TOLERANCE for suffering? Anyways, I remember years ago when I taught aerobics class I actually encouraged people to 'go for the burn'. When you workout a muscle or muscle group to the burning phase, you know you are going to make progress in toning up, getting more fit, and building muscle. I was also taught many many years ago in high school that we build muscle when we tear it down(which involves pain). (grimace). Pain is part of life, I guess. But I've spent a good portion of my life trying to relieve pain(??)...so sometimes I feel a bit confused. Pain must have a purpose and I think it does as in your example of the kid learning not to touch hot burners, etc. And yet, it seems that we cannot go through life expecting we will not have any pain or suffering. Some people are very stoic and take pride in being stoic. I can't fault them for trying not to be wimpy and stuff, but at the same time, I wish sometimes they would just give in and accept some sort of pain relief...as their suffering is also experienced by their loved ones and the people around them. Sure, I guess it's something to be proud of: and mentality of toughing it out and surviving, etc. But, what some people don't realize is that as they suffer, the people who care about them also suffer... I have much more I could say on this subject, but that's enough for now...fwiw-bop "Going for the burn", as you call it, is really not the kind of pain these people are talking about. "Going for the pain" is more like paying the price for something you want to obtain. And it is entirely the individual's choice. The pain God is supposed to be providing/allowing is in the order of trial and punishment -- and that being corporal. Things like thousands of innocent children dying daily is only one of the kindnesses of God's testing, apparently.
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Post by jondough on Apr 10, 2014 23:14:38 GMT -5
it may at first appear to be a random event but i think that time will prove out that it was not random... When we believe in God the Almighty, NOTHING happens by chance or LUCK. God has a plan and purpose for each of believer in Christ when we put our trust in Him to map out his plan for ourlives. God knew the prophets Isa. Zach. and Paul when they were in the wombs of their mothers and He had a plan mapped out for their lives. Paul was a chosen vessel to bring the gospel to the Gentiles nations.Suffering is one of the tools in God's toolbox? Yes, it is... Sufferings must proceed the glory! What we suffer today is nothing compare to the early Christians faced! They were thrown into the Roman arena with the Lion to be eaten for entertainment, the bodies soaked with oil and lit up as torches during Nero time. Sufferings, trials, hardships come into our lives to test/increase our LOVE, faith, and loyalty to God.
Just like in schools the teachers give out quizzes, tests, and exams to see how much we understand the subjects/lessons ourselves to improve our knowledge, skills.
Do you think God planned for me to stub my toe on the bedpost this morning? What about dropping my toast butter side down? Was this planned by God?
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Post by snow on Apr 10, 2014 23:38:58 GMT -5
Do you think God planned for me to stub my toe on the bedpost this morning? What about dropping my toast butter side down? Was this planned by God? Don't be so silly... You're smarter than that... That is your carelessness to stub your toe on the bedpost and for dropping the toast butter side down. God has nothing with that and you know it. Come on, you better come up with better example.Nathan that is a legitimate question JD presented. After all you did say NOTHING in capital letters is luck or change. Everything is because of God. That means everything good and bad are because made it happen. You can't have it both ways. Either God is responsible for everything or he is responsible for Nothing.
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Post by jondough on Apr 10, 2014 23:45:53 GMT -5
Do you think God planned for me to stub my toe on the bedpost this morning? What about dropping my toast butter side down? Was this planned by God? Don't be so silly... You're smarter than that... That is your carelessness to stub your toe on the bedpost and for dropping the toast butter side down. God has nothing with that and you know it. Come on, you better come up with better example.You said "when we believe in God, NOTHING happens by chance or Luck" I'm making a point that there are many things that God doesn't care one way or another. His hand is not in it. He lets the cards fall where they may. You used the word "nothing", and you made my point that you cannot say that. The wind blew a huge tree down in our yard last year. Did God have a hand in that? I don't think he causes many things to happen, that you may think he does. I believe that he allows all things to just play themselves out. But I believe the verse that says that "all things work together for the good to those that love him". So the tree fell, but because I show love to my neighbor, I may share the firewood with them. I do believe that "All things work together for the good...." but I don't believe he has his hand in all things.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 10, 2014 23:56:19 GMT -5
The concept is lodged deep in the cerebral cortex. Is that where your cerebral cortex is? It does call into question whether one's head is up one's b---.
Sorry, I Just pass that one up!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 11, 2014 0:11:52 GMT -5
As far as suffering, success, and things of this nature in this life...I would have to say I think a lot like an Atheist. What happens - happens by circumstance, chance, and of course are results of our own actions. I feel God allows it all to happen as the cards may fall. He doesn't "cause" any of it.... But..... He sent Jesus to tell us the "Good News"......that is.....Whatever our circumstance may be - there is something far greater that we can look forward to! So great, that whatever our circumstance is - it will pale in comparison. a million years from now, we won't hardly remember the pain and suffering (if that is our circumstance)....if we do, it will be a faint memory....ind of like when we skinned our knee as a kid. Now that really is Good News! Indeed a million years from now, we won't remember the pain and suffering.
The brain that interpreted the pain from the trauma which caused it and also the brain where the memory of that pain was stored has also been dead for a million years.
Indeed there wouldn't be any of that brain even around, -unless perhaps it had been fossilized. Even then, I don't think the brain would remember anything.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 11, 2014 0:18:53 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 2:57:25 GMT -5
Life is pain! We are born into suffering as it is the natural state of life. From the tree broken in half by a storm, to the kangaroo dying of thirst in the desert to the fly caught in a spiders web. From a Darwinist perspective it makes sense it is one of the defining experiences of humanity as both physical and mental pain are what drives us to seek a place more likely to bring successful reproduction. To me what stands out is that most belief systems lead to acceptance as the answer. I wonder how many would define heaven as the presence of love and the absence of suffering? A lot of human suffering caused by other humans does seem the product of human fear: is that true evil? "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger" Is this not inevitably the cornerstone of any human belief and so we must conclude it a tool of god - whoever, whatever.
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Post by rational on Apr 11, 2014 8:44:41 GMT -5
Do you think God planned for me to stub my toe on the bedpost this morning? What about dropping my toast butter side down? Was this planned by God? As the members of Bokononism whisper whenever they think about how complicated and unpredictable the machinery of life really is - Busy, busy, busy. Bokononism Bokononism is based on the concept of foma, which are defined as harmless untruths. A foundation of Bokononism is that the religion, including its texts, is formed entirely of lies; however, one who believes and adheres to these lies will have peace of mind, and perhaps live a good life. The primary tenet of Bokononism is to "Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy." More on Bokononism.
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