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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 20:51:59 GMT -5
I commend the courage of the person who began the petition. Also to each who have the courage to have thier names there for all to see. Perhaps I am cowardly, but I fear the repercussions I would face from the friends and workers if my name were on that list. An anonymous name on an online petition is of little value, but not entirely valueless. I am embarrassed but that is really the most I can feel safe with doing at this juncture in my life. Count me as cowardly also. It's the "what are you doing hanging around on those sites?" questions that I fear more than my name on the petition itself. If a link to the petition was sent to me on a mass email that I could see was sent to many other professing people, then it would be easier to sign since everyone would know about it and how could you not support the cause? Right now, I fear signing my name because others may think it's only those colluding with "bitter exes" that have signed it in an attempt to bring down the church. I'm not sure anonymous names would help at all in this case. I think a fake name or no name could give people ammunition to say that the ballot box was stuffed and the whole thing was rigged, look how dishonest this is, etc... If someone approached me for signing the petition, I would see it as an opportunity, not something to fear. I would be really happy if someone asked me "why are you hanging around those sites?" It can open up dialogue. However, I would first determine whether or not it was a rhetorical question from a closed minded person, or a genuine question seeking an answer from a curious person. The latter can lead to something really interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 21:25:59 GMT -5
Count me as cowardly also. It's the "what are you doing hanging around on those sites?" questions that I fear more than my name on the petition itself. If a link to the petition was sent to me on a mass email that I could see was sent to many other professing people, then it would be easier to sign since everyone would know about it and how could you not support the cause? Right now, I fear signing my name because others may think it's only those colluding with "bitter exes" that have signed it in an attempt to bring down the church. I'm not sure anonymous names would help at all in this case. I think a fake name or no name could give people ammunition to say that the ballot box was stuffed and the whole thing was rigged, look how dishonest this is, etc... If someone approached me for signing the petition, I would see it as an opportunity, not something to fear. I would be really happy if someone asked me "why are you hanging around those sites?" It can open up dialogue. However, I would first determine whether or not it was a rhetorical question from a closed minded person, or a genuine question seeking an answer from a curious person. The latter can lead to something really interesting. I can understand why certain folks would be nervous about signing this, and it isn't necessarily cowardice. Discretion is the better part of valor. I signed because I'm confident in my salvation inside or outside of this form of doing things, and I have very few folks other than an overseer to upset if they knew I had. For others with way more skin in the game, it's not that easy. Sad that doing the right thing for children might be construed as problematical for one's church.
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Post by jondough on Dec 19, 2013 23:06:15 GMT -5
Look no further....There are some really good writers on this site.....uh hem!! You know who you are you guilty ones.....PM her, and offer to shorten it for her!
I agree, it needs to be shortened.
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col
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Post by col on Dec 20, 2013 4:47:45 GMT -5
I just had a look at GoPetition, not sure it's the best place for this type of petition, but it is interesting to note that over 4000 people signed to stop brutal dog killings, & about 30 people have signed to stop Child abuse !! I guess that shows what is considered more important ! Think about it & do what you should do ! If there are consequences so what. The truth is the Truth.
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Post by holdmyhand on Dec 20, 2013 6:03:19 GMT -5
From my perspective not many people are aware of the numbers of child abusers within the church
Nov 2011 Wings reported
136 alleged child molesters amongst the professing church worldwide,
44 from Australia.
Has there been an update since ?
We know there has been convictions since then, is any data kept of deaths, convictions or additions to the list?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Dec 20, 2013 6:40:03 GMT -5
Look no further....There are some really good writers on this site.....uh hem!! You know who you are you guilty ones.....PM her, and offer to shorten it for her! I agree, it needs to be shortened. What would you cut out of it?
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Post by rational on Dec 20, 2013 8:34:16 GMT -5
Look no further....There are some really good writers on this site.....uh hem!! You know who you are you guilty ones.....PM her, and offer to shorten it for her! I agree, it needs to be shortened. What would you cut out of it? It is a criminal matter. It needs to address how the old and new cases need to be dealt with from a legal standpoint. Getting a petition together trying to force one point of view or another, from a spiritual standpoint, is difficult to since it is depends on the beliefs of the various readers/potential signers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 9:17:04 GMT -5
Look no further....There are some really good writers on this site.....uh hem!! You know who you are you guilty ones.....PM her, and offer to shorten it for her! I agree, it needs to be shortened. What would you cut out of it? While length is problematic for readers with short attention spans, I wouldn't cut much out. All I would recommend would be a summary of requests at the end. One short sentence each. That way someone could skip to the bottom to get the bottom line so to speak. Otherwise, it is logically written. It starts out attempting to convince the reader that there is indeed a problem and that not enough is being done about it. This is one of the biggest hurdles that exist on the subject of abuse: failure to recognize that the problem exists among F&Ws. That is the biggest "enemy" here. I disagree with rational that this is solely a legal, criminal issue. Most of the petition involves requesting actions to prevent abuse before anything criminal ever happens. You don't call the police to put locks on your doors and that is where much of the effort has to be placed if we are going to get kids through their childhood abuse-free. We don't want to wait until after they are abused before taking action. The criminal part of this is pretty simple: suspect and call authorities. Two petitions could make sense though: one to call for appropriate legal actions after an abuse is known or suspected and the other to call for good preventive measures. Either way, the latter is a complex subject and can't be dealt with in just a few words.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 9:51:31 GMT -5
If someone approached me for signing the petition, I would see it as an opportunity, not something to fear. I would be really happy if someone asked me "why are you hanging around those sites?" It can open up dialogue. However, I would first determine whether or not it was a rhetorical question from a closed minded person, or a genuine question seeking an answer from a curious person. The latter can lead to something really interesting. True. For me, I'm kind of new to this and while I absolutely abhor CSA I am really not that familiar with the cases and wouldn't have much to stand on if someone approached me, other than saying "CSA is terrible, of course I want it to stop". And that should be end of the story, but as far as the "hanging around these sites" questions it could lead to...at this point in my life I'd just rather not open up that can of worms until I'm more secure in myself, my beliefs, and my ability to have a good answer. That's a good plan. I had written and erased in that post that I have been yakking away on all these subjects for well over a decade so I have been through pretty much all the issues multiple times. By doing so, that leads to a good sense of where I am at as well as where others are at. It does take time and practice to feel confident discussing these issues.
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Post by sunshine on Dec 20, 2013 10:09:48 GMT -5
The petition is a good idea. However in reading it over, I feel like the demands need to be made clearer and numbered. It seems like they are buried in the paragraphs. Maybe a specific list at the end without any extraneous wording so that people know exactly what steps they are demanding action on when they sign their name. I would keep it the same otherwise as it contains important points. Some people just want to skip to the bottom to see what exactly they are signing. Keep going!! We need more people like you!! Don't listen to people who want to discourage you!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 20, 2013 10:25:53 GMT -5
Count me as cowardly also. It's the "what are you doing hanging around on those sites?" questions that I fear more than my name on the petition itself. If a link to the petition was sent to me on a mass email that I could see was sent to many other professing people, then it would be easier to sign since everyone would know about it and how could you not support the cause? Right now, I fear signing my name because others may think it's only those colluding with "bitter exes" that have signed it in an attempt to bring down the church. I'm not sure anonymous names would help at all in this case. I think a fake name or no name could give people ammunition to say that the ballot box was stuffed and the whole thing was rigged, look how dishonest this is, etc... The sad thing is, you should not have to worry about being on sites like this and face condemnation. I didn't know that the author of the petition had been condemned! All I see is warnings of what courageous deeds can bring someone still in the fellowship and some ideas of how to make the petition easier read and come to the right conclusion the author is seeking for! I fear that the brick wall that she/he faces is not on TMB, but within her/his own religion! I pray that they do not reap what everybody else that has had the guts to post on here and other internet sites have reaped! I hope that in order for them to keep on in the fellowship doesn't come down to the "not reading anything on the web that is controversial to the fellowship/workership" And furthermore I hope that the petition reaches the workers that even the legal authorities have not reached as far as how CSA is to be handle OR how the sermon of the Aussie worker has failed to reach even his own peers of that part of the world. I pray that it comes readily and willingly from the workers and friends over all the world to work together to cleanse the faith of the corruption that is coloring the fellowship black before the world!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 11:01:55 GMT -5
The sad thing is, you should not have to worry about being on sites like this and face condemnation. I didn't know that the author of the petition had been condemned! All I see is warnings of what courageous deeds can bring someone still in the fellowship and some ideas of how to make the petition easier read and come to the right conclusion the author is seeking for! I fear that the brick wall that she/he faces is not on TMB, but within her/his own religion! I pray that they do not reap what everybody else that has had the guts to post on here and other internet sites have reaped! I hope that in order for them to keep on in the fellowship doesn't come down to the "not reading anything on the web that is controversial to the fellowship/workership" And furthermore I hope that the petition reaches the workers that even the legal authorities have not reached as far as how CSA is to be handle OR how the sermon of the Aussie worker has failed to reach even his own peers of that part of the world. I pray that it comes readily and willingly from the workers and friends over all the world to work together to cleanse the faith of the corruption that is coloring the fellowship black before the world! She hasn't been condemned....yet. Snow just said no one should have to worry about the possibility. The only real debate that should go on should be over the validity and effectiveness of the requests.....not whether child protection should be an issue brought forward. Everyone should be on board for child protection.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 11:10:54 GMT -5
There would be many ways to summarize the petition requests. The simplest would be as follows: 1. Establishment of a Child Protection Policy 2. Establishment of a Worker Code of Conduct Within each one of those would be all the other, more detailed requests ranging from: the requirement to report all suspicions, to educational programs for workers, elders and friends, to restricted movements of convicted abusers, to the rule of 2 to touching guidelines to need-to-know information about allegations and more. I think everything that is being requested on this petition is covered in the CSA Guidelines found here: sites.google.com/site/csacodeofconduct/entire-siteA petition requesting the world wide adoption of this CSA Code of Conduct may have been a simpler approach.
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Post by rational on Dec 20, 2013 11:48:32 GMT -5
Look no further....There are some really good writers on this site.....uh hem!! You know who you are you guilty ones.....PM her, and offer to shorten it for her! I agree, it needs to be shortened. What would you cut out of it? Just a quick look at what is there and what seems to be requested, this is what I would leave in (and an editor can certainly make huge improvements): The goal of this petition is to reduce the incidence of child abuse, emotional, sexual, physical, and psychological, by educating the membership, overseers, workers, elders, and lay members, to the proper legal and moral measures that must be followed to curtail the criminal behavior of the few that cause great harm on the most vulnerable members and to prevent known or suspected cases of abuse from being hidden.
To accomplish this goal we partition that the following steps be taken immediately by the leadership:
1) Mandatory training for overseers and workers regarding the prevention of child abuse. Recommendation that as many of the membership who are interested also participate in the training. The training should be periodic and in either a group setting with a facilitator or via one of the many certified on line courses.
2) Following the guidelines set forth by the course(s) and guidelines provided by authorities who work with these situations, standards of behavior that are focused on protecting children need to be implemented.
3) The membership in general needs to be educated to understand that while not everyone is a criminal there is no class of people that are completely above suspicion. Towards this end the leadership needs to periodically inform the members, in the course of regular meetings, that parents need to be watchful and report their suspicions immediately to the authorities.
4) Known or suspected cases of abuse are be reported directly to the proper authorities.
5) In addition to any registration requirements and restrictions placed on the convicted individuals by the courts, the names of convicted abusers will be disseminated to the appropriate segment of the members, i.e., those who can be expected to come into contact with the offender.
6) Should the convicted individual be moved, in addition to any registration requirements and restrictions placed on the convicted individuals by the courts, the leadership will notify the appropriate membership in the affected area.
In the past cases of abuse, especially sexual abuse of children, have often been handled internally by moving the offender to a different location without informing those in the new area of the possible danger. Whenever possible, the offense has been covered up and the information has not been made available to the membership in general. This behavior must stop immediately.
I may have missed some of the demands in the original but I believe this shorter and more direct format gets the point across to the reader.
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Post by sunshine on Dec 20, 2013 13:12:20 GMT -5
If you really want to reach the friends and workers post the link to the petition on facebook.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Dec 20, 2013 13:20:33 GMT -5
I don't think there should be any demands in a document like that. What everyone would like is a commitment, demanding doesn't insprire committment.
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Post by jondough on Dec 20, 2013 13:27:20 GMT -5
In regards to how it should be shortened;
It's not a matter of editing out lines. It's a matter of reading, and really absorbing the message. Then a complete re-write in much fewer words.
Like others have mentioned. You need to be captured by the first couple of sentences. Then wrap it up at the end with some line items of summarization.
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Post by jondough on Dec 20, 2013 13:29:54 GMT -5
If you really want to reach the friends and workers post the link to the petition on facebook. This is very true. I will be looking for it here, or in a e-mail, if I'm to sign it. Its been menitioned that its there, so I'll look for it there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 14:20:02 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Dec 20, 2013 15:54:23 GMT -5
I don't think there should be any demands in a document like that. What everyone would like is a commitment, demanding doesn't insprire committment. A commitment that there should be demands made on people to change the way child abuse of handled? I think everyone is committed to help end child abuse. Ask anyone if they think child abuse should be supported and you know what the answer will be. That commitment is already in hand. The demands are what the people who are committed are asking of the leadership (to whom I assume this is addressed).
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2013 16:23:36 GMT -5
Those who commit such offenses do not want to help it end although they are sometimes the loudest advocates against it in order to take the light off their own offending, nor do they want accountability because they are worried they might end up in jail.
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Post by snow on Dec 20, 2013 17:00:27 GMT -5
If someone approached me for signing the petition, I would see it as an opportunity, not something to fear. I would be really happy if someone asked me "why are you hanging around those sites?" It can open up dialogue. However, I would first determine whether or not it was a rhetorical question from a closed minded person, or a genuine question seeking an answer from a curious person. The latter can lead to something really interesting. True. For me, I'm kind of new to this and while I absolutely abhor CSA I am really not that familiar with the cases and wouldn't have much to stand on if someone approached me, other than saying "CSA is terrible, of course I want it to stop". And that should be end of the story, but as far as the "hanging around these sites" questions it could lead to...at this point in my life I'd just rather not open up that can of worms until I'm more secure in myself, my beliefs, and my ability to have a good answer. That I understand. It's hard to talk about issues when we're not clear in our own minds about things.
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 20, 2013 17:01:47 GMT -5
What would you cut out of it? Just a quick look at what is there and what seems to be requested, this is what I would leave in (and an editor can certainly make huge improvements): The goal of this petition is to reduce the incidence of child abuse, emotional, sexual, physical, and psychological, by educating the membership, overseers, workers, elders, and lay members, to the proper legal and moral measures that must be followed to curtail the criminal behavior of the few that cause great harm on the most vulnerable members and to prevent known or suspected cases of abuse from being hidden.
To accomplish this goal we partition that the following steps be taken immediately by the leadership:
1) Mandatory training for overseers and workers regarding the prevention of child abuse. Recommendation that as many of the membership who are interested also participate in the training. The training should be periodic and in either a group setting with a facilitator or via one of the many certified on line courses.
2) Following the guidelines set forth by the course(s) and guidelines provided by authorities who work with these situations, standards of behavior that are focused on protecting children need to be implemented.
3) The membership in general needs to be educated to understand that while not everyone is a criminal there is no class of people that are completely above suspicion. Towards this end the leadership needs to periodically inform the members, in the course of regular meetings, that parents need to be watchful and report their suspicions immediately to the authorities.
4) Known or suspected cases of abuse are be reported directly to the proper authorities.
5) In addition to any registration requirements and restrictions placed on the convicted individuals by the courts, the names of convicted abusers will be disseminated to the appropriate segment of the members, i.e., those who can be expected to come into contact with the offender.
6) Should the convicted individual be moved, in addition to any registration requirements and restrictions placed on the convicted individuals by the courts, the leadership will notify the appropriate membership in the affected area.
In the past cases of abuse, especially sexual abuse of children, have often been handled internally by moving the offender to a different location without informing those in the new area of the possible danger. Whenever possible, the offense has been covered up and the information has not been made available to the membership in general. This behavior must stop immediately.
I may have missed some of the demands in the original but I believe this shorter and more direct format gets the point across to the reader. Thank you for this. I was having a hard time articulating an actual call to action, and making it in this format, with clear steps will definitely help. I've revised, adding these steps (which I think are perfect!) and shortened a bit of the other things. My sister is an English teacher/writer, so she'll be looking it over this weekend. Keep your eye out for an update! ☆Arwen☆
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Post by snow on Dec 20, 2013 17:04:26 GMT -5
The sad thing is, you should not have to worry about being on sites like this and face condemnation. I didn't know that the author of the petition had been condemned! All I see is warnings of what courageous deeds can bring someone still in the fellowship and some ideas of how to make the petition easier read and come to the right conclusion the author is seeking for! I fear that the brick wall that she/he faces is not on TMB, but within her/his own religion! I pray that they do not reap what everybody else that has had the guts to post on here and other internet sites have reaped! I hope that in order for them to keep on in the fellowship doesn't come down to the "not reading anything on the web that is controversial to the fellowship/workership" And furthermore I hope that the petition reaches the workers that even the legal authorities have not reached as far as how CSA is to be handle OR how the sermon of the Aussie worker has failed to reach even his own peers of that part of the world. I pray that it comes readily and willingly from the workers and friends over all the world to work together to cleanse the faith of the corruption that is coloring the fellowship black before the world! STR as far as I know she hasn't. I was responding to honestabe that made the comment that he was afraid to sign it and put his name on it because then he would be possibly confronted about hanging out on sites like this. I just thought it was sad that he would get in trouble for hanging out with us wonderful people on TMB!!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 17:13:45 GMT -5
When you get an active worker to openly sign it, that will be when you can consider you are really making progress....
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Post by sunshine on Dec 20, 2013 17:17:26 GMT -5
The wings facebook page members already know about the abuse. It needs to be on the facebook 323 group that has over 2000 professing members. But unfortunately you can't post any links or it gets deleted.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Dec 20, 2013 17:45:14 GMT -5
A commitment that there should be demands made on people to change the way child abuse of handled? I think everyone is committed to help end child abuse. Ask anyone if they think child abuse should be supported and you know what the answer will be. That commitment is already in hand. The demands are what the people who are committed are asking of the leadership (to whom I assume this is addressed). Is demanding committment of someone perceived to not be committed an effective way to influence them? I don't think so.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 17:57:32 GMT -5
A commitment that there should be demands made on people to change the way child abuse of handled? I think everyone is committed to help end child abuse. Ask anyone if they think child abuse should be supported and you know what the answer will be. That commitment is already in hand. The demands are what the people who are committed are asking of the leadership (to whom I assume this is addressed). Is demanding committment of someone perceived to not be committed an effective way to influence them? I don't think so. The word "demand" sounds a bit raw even if that is the essential nature of petitions. I use the word "request" and there are other softer words like "implore", "ask", "beg", "entreat" or "urge". Regardless, it all amounts to the same thing and anyone receiving a petition should take the time to understand its purpose.
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