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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2014 19:55:03 GMT -5
From what I can determine from people who have concerns and have left or are considering leaving, the meeting in the home is simply a positive aspect of their 2x2 experience, but not essential. Since it is not essential, not many are prepared for the substantial commitment that is required for what may be a marginal benefit. I think the only reason why the meeting in the home exists is because the system is operated by those who feel it is essential so they are motivated to do it. That's rather ironic that non-exclusive people would enjoy something that exists mainly due to exclusive thinking.....it's complicated! There have been a few circumstances where full meetings did carry on for (such as the Cooneyites in Australia) but it is rare for enough people in close proximity to leave at once for that sort of opportunity to arise it would be impractical even if someone wanted to commit to it. It happened in Alberta for a couple of meetings in the aftermath of the excommunications but as far as I know, those meetings were more of a transitional meeting due to the suddenness of the excommunications and didn't carry on. People usually leave the meetings over a period of time, one by one so that's another reason why a new independent meeting doesn't get formed. Interestingly, it is believed that there are more exes in the world than innies so I suppose there is some opportunity to reconstitute a meeting system but because people have tended to go in different directions from going to mainstream churches, or to a preference for no organized church, or to non-belief, I would expect that the idea of reconstituting an independent home fellowship is unlikely to have sufficient numbers from exes. At this point, our Vietnamese friends seem to be an exception, more along the Cooneyites who continued home fellowship for decades, with one worker, Eddie Cooney until he passed away. There is a young woman and her family that have started a home meeting/bible study with like minded Christians, not necessarily ex 2x2's though. She seems to really like it, it's informal with lots of young families like her own and they have potluck after sometimes. Sounds very nice actually. You could really do what you wanted with them. They don't have to resemble the ones you are used to if the meeting in the home is what you like, make it even better! Lots of mainstream churches have home meeting programs too. I'm sure it has varying success depending on how participatory it is. A lot of people don't like to participate but prefer to listen so if there is a lot of freedom that way, it might work. If it is really laid back, the social aspect could be of interest to people too. I think our friend What Hat surveyed this after he left the meetings. He would be pretty aware of the options out there.
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Post by snow on Mar 27, 2014 10:34:19 GMT -5
Even the Unitarian Church here have small group studies. However, most of the time they are not Bible studies because there is such a diversity of beliefs that they delve into many different things. I used to attend one small group and it was always pretty interesting the subjects they choose to look at and discuss!
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Post by faune on Mar 27, 2014 12:54:49 GMT -5
Lots of mainstream churches have home meeting programs too. I'm sure it has varying success depending on how participatory it is. A lot of people don't like to participate but prefer to listen so if there is a lot of freedom that way, it might work. If it is really laid back, the social aspect could be of interest to people too. I think our friend What Hat surveyed this after he left the meetings. He would be pretty aware of the options out there. In my experience, most people who leave are not looking for a perfect church - because they know it doesn't exist Many seem to end up in Bible based churches of various protestant denominations....and given there are a growing number of protestant non-denominational churches (Example : ccec.com.au which was a church plant made by the Sydney Anglican Church (which has a long evangelical history) into a neighbouring Anglican diocese which teaches liberal theology - as you can imagine it caused a stir when it occurred 15 or so years ago. Central Coast Evangelical Church is non-denominational even though it has strong links to Sydney. I think it has close to 800 regulars attending) To give you some insight into the church we attend: - Around 1,000 regular attendees but probably more than 3,000 different people through the doors each year (predominantly extras at Christmas and Easter plus those who are looking for a new church but settle elsewhere) - Attendees don't need to become official members - they simply attend and become part of the church - Statement of Belief is typical of a protestant, evangelical church. Major focus on attendees striving to be wholehearted disciples of Christ - Four main congregations - 3 held in the main church auditorium and one held in a local primary school - 65 regular Bible Study groups (called Growth Groups). Either weekly or fortnightly with a main leader and a second leader. Most Growth Groups are in people's homes but some are in break-out rooms in the Church building. In addition to the studies most Growth Groups will have a dinner together once each term. - Each Growth Group supports (prayer, emails etc) one of the ten overseas missionaries which are attached to our Church - Around 70-75% of people "sign-up" to attend a regular Growth Group - no stats kept on actual attendance but it is quite strong - By "sign-up" I mean the following - Growth Groups are renewed every 2 years. All the Growth Groups are published online in the secure portal of the Church website and church attendees can "sign-up" to the Growth Group of their choice. Growth Groups are held at various times throughout the week (some early morning, during the day, evening etc, some men only, some women only, rest mixed, some are younger people, some older, some mixed etc). People make a commitment for the 2 year period and after 2 years they have an opportunity to join another one that suits them (time, mix of people) better. It all works pretty smoothly. Groups can elect to continue as is after a 2 year period and some have been going for many years. - 80% of the study at Growth Groups is based on what is being preached on at church ie if John 15 was the chapter we were looking at church that would be the chapter we would study in more detail at home. We know sermon series in advance. The other 20% of the time where there is not a set sermon series we can choose what we want to study. - The Growth Group in our home starts at 7:45 for 8pm. We have a coffee and chat to begin with. The leader asks someone to pray to start the evening. We then read the chapter around (if it is a chapter) and then work through what God is saying - looking at other parts of the Bible that are related. It's open forum so people are free to express their views with the leader keeping us on track. A bit after 9 we move to prayer points where we openly discuss what we need to pray for in the coming week - could be issues in our lives that we may feel free to talk about, church leadership, broader issues.....and then we pray. Not everyone might pray, someone may pray twice - it's all quite fluid and the leader will close in prayer. We always aim to finish by no later than 9:30pm. It took a bit of getting used to initially but I really enjoy our weekly studies. You are encouraged to look at the chapter and topics in advance but as it's free-form so no-one feels compelled to participate or pray. In my experience, most people do - a good leader will encourage broad participation. Ross ~ That sounds a lot like the Baptist mega-church I attend in my hometown with the focus on Small Groups who study together throughout the week at different times to supplement the Sunday sermon message. I have learned so much through this type of fellowship and feel right at home in such a big church due to how things are designed to relate to fellow believers within the Church. Here's a link to my church site, so as you can see what I mean.
lifepointchurch.org/smyrna
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Post by arwen89 on Apr 1, 2014 9:37:26 GMT -5
Hi guys! *waves* It's been ages since I've been on here. I found the major need for a break from all this business. I was sick of second guessing my actions every time someone criticized them... Plus, I have 3 young children who need my attention!
I hardly know where to start... there have been quite a few comments since my last visit to TMB...
The analogy about the school was dead on. I've actually said something similar several times in conversation. What Snow said about leaving is basically what's going on right now with me. I have no desire to stick around and try to change things just so that I can be ostracized by everyone I know.
My family doesn't want to hear about it and have gotten to where they are convinced that everything is fine and I just made a whole mess out of nothing. After all, I AM the "dramatic child."
For those who have defended the petition and my efforts so far, thank you. It does make you question so much though, when random ppl on the Internet are more supportive that even your closest family.
Jesse, The critiques you have are valid. But can I just point out that I wrote this at midnight one night because I was upset and wanted to just do SOMETHING...? I had no idea what I was doing. I'm pretty proud of it, actually. I changed the petition a few times since first postng it, bc of all the criticism I recieved from ppl on here. I have since realized that if they don't like it, they don't have to sign it. More than anything, I just wanted readers. And if the tone seems offensive, it's because IT IS.
I didn't realize that no one I THOUGHT would care would decide I was "stirring the pot" or talk behind my back and tell others that I should have left the "past in the past." My own sister doesn't want to go to our special meeting this coming Sunday bc even SHE has recieved negative backlash from ppl she thought were her friends. How's that for ridiculous. I keep thinking "What did I DO??" You'd think I slept with someone's husband or something! Or *gasp* gotten divorced and remarried!
I know I haven't given much new information, nor answered some of the questions on here, but I think I could have never replied at all, and my cause would have been defended 100% by you all who have been so supportive here! TY.
☆Arwen☆
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 1, 2014 10:33:13 GMT -5
Hi guys! *waves* It's been ages since I've been on here. I found the major need for a break from all this business. I was sick of second guessing my actions every time someone criticized them... Plus, I have 3 young children who need my attention! I hardly know where to start... there have been quite a few comments since my last visit to TMB... The analogy about the school was dead on. I've actually said something similar several times in conversation. What Snow said about leaving is basically what's going on right now with me. I have no desire to stick around and try to change things just so that I can be ostracized by everyone I know. My family doesn't want to hear about it and have gotten to where they are convinced that everything is fine and I just made a whole mess out of nothing. After all, I AM the "dramatic child." For those who have defended the petition and my efforts so far, thank you. It does make you question so much though, when random ppl on the Internet are more supportive that even your closest family. Jesse, The critiques you have are valid. But can I just point out that I wrote this at midnight one night because I was upset and wanted to just do SOMETHING...? I had no idea what I was doing. I'm pretty proud of it, actually. I changed the petition a few times since first postng it, bc of all the criticism I recieved from ppl on here. I have since realized that if they don't like it, they don't have to sign it. More than anything, I just wanted readers. And if the tone seems offensive, it's because IT IS. I didn't realize that no one I THOUGHT would care would decide I was "stirring the pot" or talk behind my back and tell others that I should have left the "past in the past." My own sister doesn't want to go to our special meeting this coming Sunday bc even SHE has recieved negative backlash from ppl she thought were her friends. How's that for ridiculous. I keep thinking "What did I DO??" You'd think I slept with someone's husband or something! Or *gasp* gotten divorced and remarried! I know I haven't given much new information, nor answered some of the questions on here, but I think I could have never replied at all, and my cause would have been defended 100% by you all who have been so supportive here! TY. ☆Arwen☆ My dear young mother! I would think that close folks would appreciate the efforts you are taking to "save the children"! I was afraid that such things happening to you that are happening and yes, about all one can do in such an adverse position is to vote with their feet! I have to say I'm shocked at your parents! But then I'm sure they've been well spoken to....too bad that IF they were told that they would know who was right "by the fruit that they bear" would be a very necessary reason for them to start looking into that which you know and which those on TMB know to be unaltered truths. /But bad words about someone who is trying to make positive changes is the normal reactions in the 2x2's...there doesn't seem to be any openness for improvement amongst the dyed-hard devouts! They like that the workers are bearing all of the burdens or so it looks like to them, when they should stop to realize we ALL will stand ALONE before the Just Judge on Resurrection DAy! Yikes, that always make me shiver when I say that or hear that! So much within me yet, that I hate and need to leave behind..... Keep encouraged young mother and know that you understand what you want for your children! And don't feel bad about it either!
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 1, 2014 12:57:21 GMT -5
Thanks , Arwen, for your stand ,that is coming at a cost to you. Many on here can relate to your experiences. It will take a lot of graciousness , on your part, to cope with your family and people you thought were "like family" to you. In order for your family and friends to "prove" to the workers and friends that they are not like "you", the "trouble maker" and "dramatic one" and "bitter" and "lost out" "unwilling" ,"lost salvation on the internet" and on and on and on , they will feel a "need" to show their disapproval in many very hurtful ways. It does hurt, bigtime, but if one understands a little where they are coming from, it helps. Your children will look back someday and thank you for your love and protection for them. MANY abused children could only dream of having a parent like you. These parents were not necassrily bad people, but they used bad judgement and allowed harmful people to abuse their innocent children, placing them in "dangerous" situations. I would trust my grandchildren to be in your care, knowing you understand the dangers , and that you would protect them to the best of your ability. In most cases, the family members realize how ridiculous it is to "shun" and deliberately "hurt" and bully those who make a stand against unrighteousness in the church, but it can take a loooooooong time, and for some they go to their grave like that. One family member of my wifes, when his Dad was dying, he gave his "blessing" to each of the family members present on his deathbed, but to the one son who was not professing. This man is still dealing with that "curse" to this day. I encourage you, Arwen, to stand for truth as you are, and want to thank you for your efforts with the petition- a plea for innocent ones. Alvin Kroeker Birch River , Manitoba
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2014 20:47:31 GMT -5
It's quite sad that people will shoot the messenger and not the one offending (not literally of course but figuratively). I'm sorry this happening to you because you were brave enough to speak up and to care about the welfare of your children.
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Post by fixit on Apr 1, 2014 22:03:16 GMT -5
Arwen, I thought you did a very brave deed in writing the petition and was saddened to see others be so critical. It took me back to my days after the years of rape, and the concerns of others being harmed were brought up and totally discounted by others. it wasn't I until some of those people had experienced what I warned, that things were changed. my mind went back to those moments what stood between me and life was a shotgun that had just preserved our winters meat. I was in so much pain, and so scared to say anything for dear my rapist would hurt my family, I. Was going to end it all. I remember grabbing the gun, and slowly raising it to end the pain, when a distinctive voice said to me, "I will never forsake you or leave you ... Fear not." So. I put the gun down and continued praying for strength and wisdom to handle him. It was several years later, when my prayers were finally answered and he left me alone. Why am I sharing this? we all go Through hellish experiences at some point in our lives, and I encourage all parents to be vigilant of their children ... who would know my situation would go on for over 7 years and continue well over a total of 15. By the time he reprofessed and came back to meetings and violated others. thanks again for trying to make a difference. Thankfull. Amazingly many think all is well in 2x2-land. They even despise those who disturb their sleep.
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Post by fixit on Apr 1, 2014 23:32:10 GMT -5
Fixit, to a majority of families, all is well. probably they have learned to keep quiet. I did pretty good until. Was told by some workers who I should marry. And I put my foot down and so did my family and said, nope. Not gonna happen. He is abusive. It's a bit like telling them who to have for a companion each year.
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sayitaintso
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Post by sayitaintso on Apr 3, 2014 10:54:39 GMT -5
From Arwen: "I know I haven't given much new information, nor answered some of the questions on here, but I think I could have never replied at all, and my cause would have been defended 100% by you all who have been so supportive here! TY."
TRUE! Glad you said hello.... I am very proud of you! Just remember always, you did the RIGHT thing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2014 8:48:42 GMT -5
I have signed this petition but was sad to see that there are only 91 up to date that have signed it ? I have also send it to workers and friends that I know. How about everybody sending it to the workers and friends that they know ? This is a very reasonable petition to protect the children in the fellowship. when we were leaving we had a meeting with the workers and I asked bluntly why are you choosing to keep pedophiles in the meetings and losing decent people. I know this worker really well. He said its difficult and we don't go there and gestured with his hands as if to push it right away. Then I asked about the lady who had been raped by her father as a child why he was still in the meetings I said you needn't bs me I know you know about it. He just said there is something really wrong with her like she is creepy. I couldn't believe he was downing HER - she has had tragedy and divorced twice and bought up 4 kids in the meetings and worked like a slave I admire her actually. He mother never protected her the useless cow. I just said YOU THINK!!! It might be that her parents have screwed her up and it's their fault she has had so many problems.I realised then they didn't give a sh- about anything but their religion. There is something wrong with you if you are a victim and they don't want to be involved - it's somehow your fault and they will wriggle and squirm as far away as possible. There are not enough Graham Ts to make a difference. No backbone and the elder workers won't change or back down while they have complete power. More friends need to make a stand and up and leave if you feel strongly about it make a statement, you are moral and decent and won't support people condoning pedophiles by hiding them. Need to have a strike to get the rules changed. Enough people and it would happen. It's sad and sick and sorry.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 20, 2014 10:13:43 GMT -5
I have signed this petition but was sad to see that there are only 91 up to date that have signed it ? I have also send it to workers and friends that I know. How about everybody sending it to the workers and friends that they know ? This is a very reasonable petition to protect the children in the fellowship. when we were leaving we had a meeting with the workers and I asked bluntly why are you choosing to keep pedophiles in the meetings and losing decent people. I know this worker really well. He said its difficult and we don't go there and gestured with his hands as if to push it right away. Then I asked about the lady who had been raped by her father as a child why he was still in the meetings I said you needn't bs me I know you know about it. He just said there is something really wrong with her like she is creepy. I couldn't believe he was downing HER - she has had tragedy and divorced twice and bought up 4 kids in the meetings and worked like a slave I admire her actually. He mother never protected her the useless cow. I just said YOU THINK!!! It might be that her parents have screwed her up and it's their fault she has had so many problems.I realised then they didn't give a sh- about anything but their religion. There is something wrong with you if you are a victim and they don't want to be involved - it's somehow your fault and they will wriggle and squirm as far away as possible. There are not enough Graham Ts to make a difference. No backbone and the elder workers won't change or back down while they have complete power. More friends need to make a stand and up and leave if you feel strongly about it make a statement, you are moral and decent and won't support people condoning pedophiles by hiding them. Need to have a strike to get the rules changed. Enough people and it would happen. It's sad and sick and sorry. You have rephrased the reason many of exes voted with their feet! I knew it wrong to be okaying the wrongs amidst the 2x2's esp. the worker bunch by just attending mtgs. and also with what little dollars I might give them. It was a sad day when I had to leave for I hadn't rejoined with the thought in mind I would walk back out! Of course, the reason for walking back in was that I had been raised with the indoctrination that every other religion was going to hell in a hand basket! I'm thankful to have been more or less forced to start associating with my neighbors and enjoying their brand of "Christianity"!
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Post by arwen89 on Apr 21, 2014 11:58:02 GMT -5
2,981 views. 97 signatures.
☆Arwen☆
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 9:21:42 GMT -5
Are you suggesting there is safety for them in numbers? Vietnam has proven 30% did not provide it....and I doubt whether this site will receive even that many....
They are a poor country. If you had some of the top people who are multi millionaires threatening to pull their support out it would be different. We are just the Joe Blogs on the street - a number. I was amused to hear one of these people I had known for a long time (mega rich) his wife died recently and he is bringing his 'secretary' to the meetings now apparently the wife had someone else too. Money covers a multitude of sins. It would take a huge amount of people to change things it is all worked out how it works for them. Otherwise they would have changed it long ago if they were prone to decency. A lot of the friends have something wrong with them - breakdowns - depression, decreased mental capacity, just poor genes, inbreeding. The workers keep telling them don't do anything to upset the spirit - if you feel anxious you are losing the spirit. They are not up to thinking for themselves. Which is typical of a cult. The well off won't rock the boat and the lame won't so you are only 1/3 of ordinary people if that, trying to change something they don't want to. Good luck with that better to get on with your own life and make sure your kids are well away from them.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 22, 2014 9:32:32 GMT -5
Dennis' take on how and what the 2x2's do and are pretty well hits it. The friends are not used to thinking outside the curve or even taking the curve on anything. They have to pass everything before the workers before they pursue whatever it was. I'm not meaning "everybody" is like that within the 2x2's but it seems a good majority of the friends and younger workers are well trained in this. Anyone else not sticking to this recommended behavior will often be determined to be on the fence and not to be followed! This is sad when sometimes that person on the fence is the person who is seeing thing in reality!
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Post by arwen89 on Oct 23, 2014 11:58:46 GMT -5
I've been meaning to post this for a bit, kind of just as an update...
We didn't attend convention at my parents house in Clever this year. I can't imagine having gone for so many reasons, but anyway... We all know that I posted the petition, emailed it to friends, talked to my parents about the issue, etc. My dad talked to one of the workers and explained their concerns (aka mine) with allowing Ira Hobbs on the grounds and I believe he asked if they would please contact him and give him the phone number for the conference call for the meetings.
I texted my sister (who did go to convention this year) and asked if she knew whether Ira Hobbs was there or not... Of course he was.
I started to flip out, but then realized that I KNEW that this is the way it would be. My sister taped to my dad and find it that apparently the workers told my dad that they "Didn't feel comfortable asking someone not to come to convention" and that if he didn't want him in his private property that my dad would have to contact Ira. That obviously didn't happen.
Whatever.
☆Arwen☆
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 23, 2014 12:26:51 GMT -5
I've been meaning to post this for a bit, kind of just as an update... We didn't attend convention at my parents house in Clever this year. I can't imagine having gone for so many reasons, but anyway... We all know that I posted the petition, emailed it to friends, talked to my parents about the issue, etc. My dad talked to one of the workers and explained their concerns (aka mine) with allowing Ira Hobbs on the grounds and I believe he asked if they would please contact him and give him the phone number for the conference call for the meetings. I texted my sister (who did go to convention this year) and asked if she knew whether Ira Hobbs was there or not... Of course he was. I started to flip out, but then realized that I KNEW that this is the way it would be. My sister taped to my dad and find it that apparently the workers told my dad that they "Didn't feel comfortable asking someone not to come to convention" and that if he didn't want him in his private property that my dad would have to contact Ira. That obviously didn't happen. Whatever. ☆Arwen☆ Too bad, someone didn't think about what your father could get charged with IF IH had come and had just been alleged to have broke a law on his property! And as it was a child victim, the parents were going to sue your father. Has your parents even been given this possibility? Yes, most professing parents would not sue the convention ground owners but there would be one or two here and there that would sue them for the least of reasons. This day and age, law suits are to be had for a half penny and one lawyer who wants a lawsuit for a bit of money himself! So a lawyer could easily set himself to attend conv. to appear "interested" in what is being said, etc and really looking for a "lawsuit" that needs to be filed. CSA issues are bringing lawsuits in the world's populace some more, so it's nothing unheard of. ITHINK THE workers were wrong in not telling IH that there were some legal concerns from the land owners about him coming to conv. This is pure cowardice on the workers' part. Although I'm sure you're aware now that the one worker who should be handling the affair can't do it due to his own problems.....and problems that IH is quite aware of, I'm sure.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 23, 2014 16:42:39 GMT -5
I've been meaning to post this for a bit, kind of just as an update... We didn't attend convention at my parents house in Clever this year. I can't imagine having gone for so many reasons, but anyway... We all know that I posted the petition, emailed it to friends, talked to my parents about the issue, etc. My dad talked to one of the workers and explained their concerns (aka mine) with allowing Ira Hobbs on the grounds and I believe he asked if they would please contact him and give him the phone number for the conference call for the meetings. I texted my sister (who did go to convention this year) and asked if she knew whether Ira Hobbs was there or not... Of course he was. I started to flip out, but then realized that I KNEW that this is the way it would be. My sister taped to my dad and find it that apparently the workers told my dad that they "Didn't feel comfortable asking someone not to come to convention" and that if he didn't want him in his private property that my dad would have to contact Ira. That obviously didn't happen. Whatever. ☆Arwen☆ Not surprising that Ira was there, Arwen. Same ol', same 'ol in regard to this type of situation. Since your dad DID express concerns to the workers, and since the workers DID ignore his concerns........ it just points out how the workers in some areas consider other people's property to be theirs for the useage, irregardless of the owners concerns. Nothing new there. When one senior worker tells a victim that Ira will NOT be allowed to be at conventions, and then later it is "ONLY with supervision", and now concerns are simply ignored by the senior workers........ It pretty much tells members of the fellowship who are in the know, that the words of some senior workers cannot be trusted to be true. And....... once again, trust and respect goes down for senior workers, irregardless as to whether they are involved in the decision making. If ANY senior worker is seen as untrustworthy, then all other senior workers are going to be tainted by those actions in one manner or another. That is why people turn to the internet to get information. They can't trust the words of their senior 'spiritual leaders'. Pretty sad, in my opinion. But like I have said before, it isn't my church, so the members of the fellowship have the leadership that they must be comfortable with if they do not voice their concerns and encourage needed changes.
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Post by emy on Oct 23, 2014 18:41:49 GMT -5
If there are no incidents recent enough so that IH can be prosecuted and become a CONVICTED child abuser, then what are the chances that any child at convention will be assaulted? Especially if he is under supervision.
Just sayin'.
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Post by fixit on Oct 23, 2014 19:40:53 GMT -5
If there are no incidents recent enough so that IH can be prosecuted and become a CONVICTED child abuser, then what are the chances that any child at convention will be assaulted? Especially if he is under supervision. Just sayin'. Just as well we can rely on the law to provide moral guidance for our fellowship.
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Post by emy on Oct 23, 2014 20:27:19 GMT -5
If there are no incidents recent enough so that IH can be prosecuted and become a CONVICTED child abuser, then what are the chances that any child at convention will be assaulted? Especially if he is under supervision. Just sayin'. Just as well we can rely on the law to provide moral guidance for our fellowship. Not sure how this fits with what I said? Shouldn't any repented sinner be allowed at convention? I'm sure there are hundreds of unrepented ones who attend. No, we don't know if he is repented, but then should we judge him unworthy? But I guess we can be like Simon who thought the "unworthy" woman shouldn't be allowed to anoint Jesus. (Luke 7:36-50 .... Didn't someone just quote one of those verses somewhere?)
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 23, 2014 20:30:18 GMT -5
If there are no incidents recent enough so that IH can be prosecuted and become a CONVICTED child abuser, then what are the chances that any child at convention will be assaulted? Especially if he is under supervision. Just sayin'. Don't any of you recall the ex-worker who married and had been put out of the work due to his wrong tendencies? What happened" How many years did he go between his last and next CSA victim? Wasn't he really brave to take on a worldly kid who wasn't afraid of the workers or what they would say and his parents weren't afraid of anyone in the 2x2 religion....and the alleged worker got his just dues and was sentenced! So don't think that just because it has been a long spell since victims and that because he's married that such activity is impossible! He might well feel he has lulled those around him into complacency.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 23, 2014 20:33:50 GMT -5
Just as well we can rely on the law to provide moral guidance for our fellowship. Not sure how this fits with what I said? Shouldn't any repented sinner be allowed at convention? I'm sure there are hundreds of unrepented ones who attend. No, we don't know if he is repented, but then should we judge him unworthy? But I guess we can be like Simon who thought the "unworthy" woman shouldn't be allowed to anoint Jesus. (Luke 7:36-50 .... Didn't someone just quote one of those verses somewhere?) Did Jesus not speak to offending any of these little ones? Now I know everybody wants to spiritualize that, but I think he meant it actually as much as anything. Didn't he say that any person who offended any of these little ones should be as one who had a large stone around their neck and tossed into the sea. Now to me, that doesn't sound like Jesus is condoning salvation for those who offend any of the little ones! So one has to wonder that repentance is available! I'd think it might be a rare chance......
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Post by emy on Oct 23, 2014 20:34:51 GMT -5
Don't any of you recall the ex-worker who married and had been put out of the work due to his wrong tendencies? What happened" How many years did he go between his last and next CSA victim? Wasn't he really brave to take on a worldly kid who wasn't afraid of the workers or what they would say and his parents weren't afraid of anyone in the 2x2 religion....and the alleged worker got his just dues and was sentenced! So don't think that just because it has been a long spell since victims and that because he's married that such activity is impossible! He might well feel he has lulled those around him into complacency. How long was it? I thought he had continued to offend, but wasn't caught until then.
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Post by emy on Oct 23, 2014 20:39:12 GMT -5
Not sure how this fits with what I said? Shouldn't any repented sinner be allowed at convention? I'm sure there are hundreds of unrepented ones who attend. No, we don't know if he is repented, but then should we judge him unworthy? But I guess we can be like Simon who thought the "unworthy" woman shouldn't be allowed to anoint Jesus. (Luke 7:36-50 .... Didn't someone just quote one of those verses somewhere?) Did Jesus not speak to offending any of these little ones? Now I know everybody wants to spiritualize that, but I think he meant it actually as much as anything. Didn't he say that any person who offended any of these little ones should be as one who had a large stone around their neck and tossed into the sea. Now to me, that doesn't sound like Jesus is condoning salvation for those who offend any of the little ones! So one has to wonder that repentance is available! I'd think it might be a rare chance...... I only recall one sin that is unforgivable. I think the message Jesus was getting across was make every effort not to offend. And "little ones" often refers to Jesus' followers.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 23, 2014 20:46:11 GMT -5
Don't any of you recall the ex-worker who married and had been put out of the work due to his wrong tendencies? What happened" How many years did he go between his last and next CSA victim? Wasn't he really brave to take on a worldly kid who wasn't afraid of the workers or what they would say and his parents weren't afraid of anyone in the 2x2 religion....and the alleged worker got his just dues and was sentenced! So don't think that just because it has been a long spell since victims and that because he's married that such activity is impossible! He might well feel he has lulled those around him into complacency. How long was it? I thought he had continued to offend, but wasn't caught until then. "George Scandalis, 67, had been a minister for a Christian fellowship that goes by no official name but is informally known as the Two-by-Twos, the Workers, the Truth or the Christian Conventions. Barry Barkley, who coordinates some of the ministry's activities in the Northeast, said members told Scandalis no later than 1979 to cease his work after a claim of child abuse in Massachusetts." Read more: wingsbts.proboards.com/thread/78/george-scandalis-massachusets#ixzz3H1TGu37W
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Post by mdm on Oct 23, 2014 21:53:09 GMT -5
If there are no incidents recent enough so that IH can be prosecuted and become a CONVICTED child abuser, then what are the chances that any child at convention will be assaulted? Especially if he is under supervision. Just sayin'. Just a note that the last I heard, he was supposed to be "supervised" by his wife at conventions. I feel for his wife, but also don't think that wives can be proper "supervisors."
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Post by SharonArnold on Oct 23, 2014 21:56:05 GMT -5
Did Jesus not speak to offending any of these little ones? Now I know everybody wants to spiritualize that, but I think he meant it actually as much as anything. Didn't he say that any person who offended any of these little ones should be as one who had a large stone around their neck and tossed into the sea. Now to me, that doesn't sound like Jesus is condoning salvation for those who offend any of the little ones! So one has to wonder that repentance is available! I'd think it might be a rare chance...... I only recall one sin that is unforgivable. I think the message Jesus was getting across was make every effort not to offend. And "little ones" often refers to Jesus' followers. And, tell me. Do you really understand that one unforgivable sin? Enough to explain it to the rest of us?
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