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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 6, 2013 2:16:48 GMT -5
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Post by kencoolidge on Dec 6, 2013 7:29:47 GMT -5
Dmg/Bob You two have so much class.At least one has an excuse. I haven't read all of your elloquent post but page one I certanly got the flavor. Surprised the the mods haven't banned you both. ken
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2013 10:55:55 GMT -5
I have more trouble believing in an unseen God personally. I find it easier to believe that we are observers and in the quantum world anyway, being an observer changes things. We have no proof that it works that way in the macro world. However, we do know that how we see things colors our perception of life and sometimes makes things 'seem' real to us. There is a saying, 'seeing is believing', but also 'believing is seeing'. So maybe it's something as simple as a belief in God is what makes people think they are seeing proof of God. That would also work for other things we can't prove but seem to believe in. If we believe it we will adjust our understandings to make it real. For us anyway. However, it does seem that once we lose belief in something, it's not usually reversible. Be still and know ... my God you talk a lot. lol, yes I guess I do from time to time. Mostly I'm a pretty quiet person though.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 6, 2013 14:31:13 GMT -5
Dmg/Bob You two have so much class.At least one has an excuse. I haven't read all of your elloquent post but page one I certanly got the flavor. Surprised the the mods haven't banned you both. ken Ken, - thank you, Thank you, so much! -(taking a bow)
However, I must give credit where credit is due! I wouldn't be able to achieve such a classy, regal mien without lee's impressive, erudite, interesting prose!
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Post by faune on Dec 6, 2013 14:50:10 GMT -5
Well to recap you've argued the Gospels lead us to a false understanding of Jesus in order to serve the political ambitions of the RCC. But in reality the Gospels and their context of scripture argue against top-heavy people and institutions. I don't see the gospels as serving the political ambitions of the RCC. Maybe a little because of the ones that were chosen for the bible, but the gospels were written before the RCC was in existence as the institution we see today. I think the gospels were more the product of followers of Christ who were writing to attract more followers, but also to appease the governing power which was Rome. There was a huge fear of Rome because of what they did in Jerusalem and for a new religion it would have been suicidal to blame the Romans for their leaders death. Both politically and probably even physically. That's what I see from what I've read anyway. Snow is right about the gospels being written before the RCC became the organized church in Rome when Constantine legalized Christianity in 313 A.D. This was definitely a political move under his leadership. Also, he never converted to Christianity himself until perhaps on his deathbed, but practiced his pagan religion and had the reputation of a tyrant. There were different gospel stories circulating by then and written down when the RCC came into the picture. Many were destroyed by the RCC when they came to power, since the victors get to choose what they want to keep and destroy. They choose what canons they wanted to retain for the Bible and burned the rest that didn't agree with their philosophy. There was quite a persecution of earlier Christian groups who didn't follow the leader and many were wiped out completely during the different Inquistions. Some of these ancient religious documents constituted the Nag Hammadi Library, which was buried and well hidden until it was discovered in December 1945 ~ many centuries later! It seems that many of the Gnostic groups would be considered New Age today, due to the passed down teachings of ancient Egyptian folklore. So, it doesn't surprise me any that people are getting back to New Age teachings today because of the image given of God within the Old Testament which doesn't agree with the picture of Jesus or a relationship between the two? From my own personal study of the historical Jesus, I have learned a lot of things I was totally unaware of before, which has helped me understand what I had been missing in my study of scriptures over the years. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
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Post by Lee on Dec 6, 2013 22:07:55 GMT -5
Seeing no order in the world around you can only be the product of a depressed, muted, or unnaturally sleeping mind. And you see "order" in the world where a tornado (as happened near me last week in Washington) just skipped, hopped & jumped from one area to another?
And if I can't see order in that then you think that it can only be because my mind is "depressed, muted, or unnaturally sleeping?"
Strange, -I see it as a mind that is wide awake, alert and facing reality!
Theists have fear or respect for acts of God and tend to be more prepared.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 6, 2013 22:31:11 GMT -5
And you see "order" in the world where a tornado (as happened near me last week in Washington) just skipped, hopped & jumped from one area to another?
And if I can't see order in that then you think that it can only be because my mind is "depressed, muted, or unnaturally sleeping?"
Strange, -I see it as a mind that is wide awake, alert and facing reality!
Theists have fear or respect for acts of God and tend to be more prepared. "more prepared?" You want to tell that to all the theists out there whose homes were destroyed & their loved ones killed by a tornado?
You want to tell those theists that the reason that happened to them is because they didn't have enough "fear or respect for acts of God," therefore, that is the reason why their homes & families were destroyed?
You know, -the old argument that if God didn't answer someone's prayer it was because they hadn't prayed hard enough, often enough and fervently enough?
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2013 22:43:36 GMT -5
And you see "order" in the world where a tornado (as happened near me last week in Washington) just skipped, hopped & jumped from one area to another?
And if I can't see order in that then you think that it can only be because my mind is "depressed, muted, or unnaturally sleeping?"
Strange, -I see it as a mind that is wide awake, alert and facing reality!
Theists have fear or respect for acts of God and tend to be more prepared. I have great respect for Mother Nature! Not believing in God doesn't make you any less prepared. Why would it?
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Post by Lee on Dec 6, 2013 23:05:13 GMT -5
Whats the difference between MN&G
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Post by snow on Dec 7, 2013 11:23:43 GMT -5
Whats the difference between MN&G One we can see and the other we cannot. Mother Nature is a name for the environmental issues we deal with living on this planet. We see what happens. With the word God, we have no understanding of what that might even look like because we can't see anything that provides proof of it's existence. If you are using the word God the same way I'm using Mother Nature, then there is no difference between the two. On the other hand, if you are using the word God to mean a being that rewards and punishes us for what we do, then we are talking about two different types of things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2013 12:05:32 GMT -5
Whats the difference between MN&G If you are talking about the difference between Mother Nature and the Christian God then that can be summed up easily. Mother Nature is the entity which makes the rain fall, creates life, makes the grass grow and is behind the beauty and splendour of the natural world. The Christian God is the entity who loves and cares for you, who is all seeing, all knowing and all powerful, who will save your soul if you believe in Him and follow Him and who will send you to everlasting hell if you don’t, who can cure all your ailments if you have sufficient faith in Him and who takes an peculiar interest in what you get up to in the bedroom. At least that’s what those who believe in the Christian God will claim … but of course there is no evidence to support any of these claims whatsoever. Matt10
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Post by faune on Dec 7, 2013 21:57:51 GMT -5
If you want to understand Christianity, I believe you need to study the era it came into being and the reasons behind it. I saw this documentary entitled "Caesar's Messiah" a while back which deals with the times when the Christian faith came into being and it helps you to understand the times a lot better. Around 25 minutes, you will see where the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) came into being within the story of Christianity.
topdocumentaryfilms.com/caesars-messiah/
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Post by snow on Dec 7, 2013 22:04:53 GMT -5
faune, actually watched that today.
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Post by faune on Dec 8, 2013 10:46:12 GMT -5
faune, actually watched that today. Snow ~ What were your impressions after seeing this documentary on early Christianity and the times in which Jesus actually lived? I found it pretty informative in piecing together the puzzle in my own mind as to how things played out back in time. Very thought provoking indeed! You can see bits and pieces of this video on You-tube, but not the full video. This link allows you to see the entire documentary in full for those who want to learn about ancient history and how things played out over time. I also include the links to the Dead Sea Scrolls and a documentary about the "War of the Jews" written by Josephus, a first century historian of Rome. topdocumentaryfilms.com/caesars-messiah/ (Caesar's Messiah ~ Documentary ~ 84 minutes) www.deadseascrolls.org.il/learn-about-the-scrolls/introduction (Introduction to the Dead Sea Scrolls)
topdocumentaryfilms.com/kingdom-david-saga-israelites/ (Kingdom of David ~ Saga of the Israelites ~ Documentary in 4 Parts ~ 224 Minutes) or War of the Jews by Josephus (1st century)
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Post by snow on Dec 8, 2013 12:00:23 GMT -5
faune, actually watched that today. Snow ~ What were your impressions after seeing this documentary on early Christianity and the times in which Jesus actually lived? I found it pretty informative in piecing together the puzzle in my own mind as to how things played out back in time. Very thought provoking indeed! You can see bits and pieces of this video on You-tube, but not the full video. This link allows you to see the entire documentary in full for those who want to learn about ancient history and how things played out over time. I also include the links to the Dead Sea Scrolls and a documentary about the "War of the Jews" written by Josephus, a first century historian of Rome. topdocumentaryfilms.com/caesars-messiah/ (Caesar's Messiah ~ Documentary ~ 84 minutes) www.deadseascrolls.org.il/learn-about-the-scrolls/introduction (Introduction to the Dead Sea Scrolls)
topdocumentaryfilms.com/kingdom-david-saga-israelites/ (Kingdom of David ~ Saga of the Israelites ~ Documentary in 4 Parts ~ 224 Minutes) or War of the Jews by Josephus (1st century)
The material presented in the Caesars Messiah isn't new material for me. I have heard that version before. Anyone that advocates that Jesus was just a mythical character derived from the Mithra Cult and an collection of the wandering Messiahs of his time, goes into this type of reasoning. They believe that there was no historical man that became the 'Christ' but rather the concept of Christ was a 'Christ consciousness'. That it was developed by the Jews and the Romans in an attempt to blend the two religions at the time. That is why Christianity has so many pagan 'roots' within it. It was an attempt to take polytheism and make it monotheistic. But as we can see, the Roman Emperor Constantine backed the trinity concept which is really a polytheistic concept when all the attempts of explaining they are only three gods in one, is stripped away. Polytheism was the most familiar religious concept for the Romans so it was easy for them to accept that Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost were all equal. However, for the Jewish population that was not familiar with polytheism, it reeked of polytheism to put Jesus on the same level as God. Therefore, the huge fight for many years between the two different sides and it never has been completely accepted by all Christian denominations. Personally, I think we can never know if Jesus was historical or not. The concept of Jesus is found in many pagan religions that came before Christianity so it's possible Christianity's leader is more a concept than a historical figure. Because there is very little written about the historical man anywhere but in the bible, it would seem that it is more likely a concept but who knows. I have not watched the other ones, but have read quite a bit about the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Essenes were an interesting group and I can see how they were successful in keeping the old documents safe. They were quite an isolated group.
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Post by rational on Dec 8, 2013 12:01:02 GMT -5
Theists have fear or respect for acts of God and tend to be more prepared. This is BS. Many theists look at acts of god as god's will and accept it. If you are a theist and think you can prepare to avoid the will of god, by moving, hiding, etc. then you have to question your belief in god. It is like the German folk tale: The old man was in Hamburg and happened to see Death on one of the streets. So he jumped the train and got to Munich as fast as he could. When he arrived at the hotel there was Death sitting in the lobby. The man looked at Death and said "I am surprised to see you here. I Noticed you in Hamburg yesterday." To which Death replied - "Yes I was surprised to see you in Hamburg yesterday as well since I had an appointment with you in Munich today."
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 8, 2013 18:20:55 GMT -5
Theists have fear or respect for acts of God and tend to be more prepared. This is BS. Many theists look at acts of god as god's will and accept it. If you are a theist and think you can prepare to avoid the will of god, by moving, hiding, etc. then you have to question your belief in god. It is like the German folk tale: The old man was in Hamburg and happened to see Death on one of the streets. So he jumped the train and got to Munich as fast as he could. When he arrived at the hotel there was Death sitting in the lobby. The man looked at Death and said "I am surprised to see you here. I Noticed you in Hamburg yesterday." To which Death replied - "Yes I was surprised to see you in Hamburg yesterday as well since I had an appointment with you in Munich today." Yep, -if they are missed by the tornado, but their neighbor's house was hit -then "GOD" was with them.
However, if their neighbor's house wasn't hit, but their own house was destroyed, then "GOD" was trying to show them that they shouldn't put their faith & hope in "material" things of this world!
God's Will no matter what, otherwise you have to question your belief in god and that is unthinkable!
We have a neighbor who no matter how something turns out it is "the will of God."
At a rummage sale this fall she bought a table. She said, "I had to go to work this morning & couldn't stop to buy it then but thought if it is the "will of God" it will still be there when I go home."
A table!! -as if any god would concern him/herself with such a trivial thing!
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Post by faune on Dec 8, 2013 19:27:01 GMT -5
Snow ~ Thanks for your review and sharing information you have gained from your own research into the historical Jesus. What truly amazes me is the lack of evidence of Jesus existence and exploits. It seems that the only evidence of record of His existence is that he lived during the first century, was baptized by John the Baptist, had a following of disciples, and was crucified by the Romans for sedition. However, if you check out the life of Muhammad, there is a wealth of information on this prophet and what he accomplished in his lifetime, which is ironic in itself. You would think that any person who changed history as much as Jesus would have more historical records regarding his existence and ministry?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
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Post by snow on Dec 8, 2013 22:45:14 GMT -5
Snow ~ Thanks for your review and sharing information you have gained from your own research into the historical Jesus. What truly amazes me is the lack of evidence of Jesus existence and exploits. It seems that the only evidence of record of His existence is that he lived during the first century, was baptized by John the Baptist, had a following of disciples, and was crucified by the Romans for sedition. However, if you check out the life of Muhammad, there is a wealth of information on this prophet and what accomplished in his lifetime, which is ironic in itself. You would think that any person who changed history as much as Jesus would have more historical records regarding his existence and ministry?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
I know. It's ironic isn't it that Islam has more references to the prophet Jesus. You will find the book The Zealot very interesting when you read it. It's written by a Christian that has converted to Islam.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 8, 2013 22:50:53 GMT -5
Snow ~ Thanks for your review and sharing information you have gained from your own research into the historical Jesus. What truly amazes me is the lack of evidence of Jesus existence and exploits. It seems that the only evidence of record of His existence is that he lived during the first century, was baptized by John the Baptist, had a following of disciples, and was crucified by the Romans for sedition. However, if you check out the life of Muhammad, there is a wealth of information on this prophet and what accomplished in his lifetime, which is ironic in itself. You would think that any person who changed history as much as Jesus would have more historical records regarding his existence and ministry?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
I know. It's ironic isn't it that Islam has more references to the prophet Jesus. You will find the book The Zealot very interesting when you read it. It's written by a Christian that has converted to Islam. The most remarkable thing I heard on many occasions in the mosque was that "Muhammad said nothing new. Jesus said it all." Christians in general do not know what it is about Islam that makes Christians look so despicable to Muslims. But who could tell them and have them believe what it is?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2013 23:41:35 GMT -5
Why is the Roman government a point of reference? Who are they that it should matter that they are defied? The Romans ruled Palestine, and Jesus was on the side of the rebels who wanted the Romans booted out. care to show where He was on the side of rebels
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2013 23:43:35 GMT -5
No he wasn't. His concept of a kingdom, God's Kingdom, involved but transcended this world's immediate kingdoms at once. The Romans cared not a whit about Jesus' kingdom of heaven -- he came riding into Jerusalem to the praise of throngs of people (all of whom hated the Romans), he railed on every Jew who kissed up to the Romans, and he caused a riot in the face of high Roman security. You think the Romans thought he was coming in peace? and yet He did had time for those Romans who had time for Him
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Post by faune on Dec 9, 2013 0:04:28 GMT -5
Snow ~ It really amazes me how many similarities can be found between ancient pagan religions and Christianity. I remember reading from another book, "The Pagan Christ," about the number of stories found in Christianity that can be found within the mystery religions of Rome as well as ancient Egyptian myths relating to "Sun gods." For instance, the story of Lazarus and his resurrection is found in the myth regarding Horus, along with a number of other stories in relation to this Egyptian sun god. I was really shocked to learn that many of the familiar gospel stories within the New Testament can be found also within pagan myths passed down through the centuries in amazing detail. Snow shared...
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Post by faune on Dec 9, 2013 0:22:39 GMT -5
I know. It's ironic isn't it that Islam has more references to the prophet Jesus. You will find the book The Zealot very interesting when you read it. It's written by a Christian that has converted to Islam. The most remarkable thing I heard on many occasions in the mosque was that "Muhammad said nothing new. Jesus said it all." Christians in general do not know what it is about Islam that makes Christians look so despicable to Muslims. But who could tell them and have them believe what it is? Bob ~ Perhaps you can fill in the gaps regarding your statement above? I realize the Muslims don't believe that Jesus was crucified or perceive Him as the Son of God; however, there are a lot of references to Jesus within their holy book, the Quran.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 9, 2013 0:44:43 GMT -5
The Romans ruled Palestine, and Jesus was on the side of the rebels who wanted the Romans booted out. care to show where He was on the side of rebels I have no pictures to show you. But picture this. First of all, understand that not all the Jews were considered rebels. The Jews who controlled the temple were totally in compliance with the Romans. Jesus was therefore an enemy to the Romans because he was an enemy to the only Jews allied with the Romans to maintain order. So: According to the Bible, he rode into Jerusalem to the cheers of crowds that hated the Romans -- a clear warning to the Romans to watch for trouble, According to the Bible, he was reputed to be the King of the Jews -- which in Roman law was considered rebellion. According to the Bible, he caused a riot in the temple in the face of Roman peacekeepers -- that is civil disobedience. Mind you, it wasn't just any day in the temple. It was Passover, the most chaotic time in the temple when pilgrims visiting from all over the known world came to sacrifice animals in the temple. Interestingly the Bible declines to mention what Judas had to tell them about Jesus, but they found it to be worth paying for. We do not read that any Jews condemned Jesus before he annoyed the Romans, but in those days one saved one's neck by making sure they reported any mention of sedition to the Romans lest they themselves be accused of covering it up. But none of that really matters that much. The simple fact that he was crucified means that he was accused by the Romans of sedition. I know, many people don't believe that. But I will take the Bible at its word and believe he was crucified for the normal reason, and not try to imagine some cocakamey excuse for why the Romans would want him killed for blasphemy. The Romans loved nothing more than someone who would blaspheme against the Jewish god. They should have saved him if that were the case.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 9, 2013 0:46:11 GMT -5
The Romans cared not a whit about Jesus' kingdom of heaven -- he came riding into Jerusalem to the praise of throngs of people (all of whom hated the Romans), he railed on every Jew who kissed up to the Romans, and he caused a riot in the face of high Roman security. You think the Romans thought he was coming in peace? and yet He did had time for those Romans who had time for Him Your turn to show me where he had time for the Romans who had time for him -- and who the Romans were who had time for him.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 9, 2013 1:01:07 GMT -5
The most remarkable thing I heard on many occasions in the mosque was that "Muhammad said nothing new. Jesus said it all." Christians in general do not know what it is about Islam that makes Christians look so despicable to Muslims. But who could tell them and have them believe what it is? Bob ~ Perhaps you can fill in the gaps regarding your statement above? I realize the Muslims don't believe that Jesus was crucified or perceive Him as the Son of God; however, there are a lot of references to Jesus within their holy book, the Quran. According to Islam -- I mean Qur'anic Islam -- the reason to go to war is to combat injustice, and injustice being considered inequality of individuals to access the benefits of their natural resources. There is no Qur'anic defense for the killing or even the harassment of anyone simply because they are an "infidel" of any stripe. So what Westerners might think about is how Muslims come to have no respect for them, as opposed to Russians or Chinese, for example. Could natural resources be the reason. In the beginning natural resources was not a global problem, it was a local problem. To Muslims, it still is a local problem -- which might add to the explanation. I know some Muslims do not think Jesus was crucified -- but according to the Qur'an that's not the case. I suspect it is a misreading of the Qur'an. In fact, the Qur'an does not even say that Jesus was crucified, it just says he was killed. What the Qur'an says is that they (the Jews) did not kill Jesus. You're right -- the first instruction given in the Qur'an is that people read the Gospels.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2013 2:50:21 GMT -5
care to show where He was on the side of rebels I have no pictures to show you. But picture this. First of all, understand that not all the Jews were considered rebels. The Jews who controlled the temple were totally in compliance with the Romans. Jesus was therefore an enemy to the Romans because he was an enemy to the only Jews allied with the Romans to maintain order. So: According to the Bible, he rode into Jerusalem to the cheers of crowds that hated the Romans -- a clear warning to the Romans to watch for trouble, According to the Bible, he was reputed to be the King of the Jews -- which in Roman law was considered rebellion. According to the Bible, he caused a riot in the temple in the face of Roman peacekeepers -- that is civil disobedience. Mind you, it wasn't just any day in the temple. It was Passover, the most chaotic time in the temple when pilgrims visiting from all over the known world came to sacrifice animals in the temple. Interestingly the Bible declines to mention what Judas had to tell them about Jesus, but they found it to be worth paying for. We do not read that any Jews condemned Jesus before he annoyed the Romans, but in those days one saved one's neck by making sure they reported any mention of sedition to the Romans lest they themselves be accused of covering it up. But none of that really matters that much. The simple fact that he was crucified means that he was accused by the Romans of sedition. I know, many people don't believe that. But I will take the Bible at its word and believe he was crucified for the normal reason, and not try to imagine some cocakamey excuse for why the Romans would want him killed for blasphemy. The Romans loved nothing more than someone who would blaspheme against the Jewish god. They should have saved him if that were the case. is there any where in the Bible that Jesus states clearly that He considered the Romans as His enemies?
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