|
Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 14, 2013 15:33:57 GMT -5
Okay. It seemed harsh to me. You would know better than me what your relationship is like, of course. As an outsider it concerned me. Thanks, snow AND I agree with you. You have a good heart, which I appreciate my dialogue with you on this message board. For three years Brad's mom and I talked at Boring convention during convention time almost an hour every time. We talked about many different topics. Yes, I didn't talk to Brad's mom personally this year. This friend is an relative to Brad's Lewis mom. He told me and another friend when I asked where is brad L. these days? He told me so I want to know if these information is true. If it is congratulation, Brad.
My last year in the work was in Brad's mom field. I stayed in their homes a few times. So, I know Brad and his family history quite well... Before, during, and after Brad L. went in the work. His time on this message board in the past.
I'm shocked at Cherie! I've never known her to be so curt and unfeeling!
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Oct 14, 2013 16:34:02 GMT -5
Right now, tax is paid without listing an organization or expenses. What tax is paid? My understanding is that money donated to workers has been taxed. And that money donated to registered churches has not been taxed.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 14, 2013 16:40:58 GMT -5
Also, "let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing". True, but that one actually implies that charity work is a good thing, it's just interpreted to be quiet about it......which is fine. Personally, I don't see any problem with someone letting others know what they are doing as it can often inspire others to do the same. The scripture seems to be pointing out that either is ok, it's just a difference on when and where the rewards of such actions will appear. I have to say that I can't recall offhand any instance of any worker preaching in favour of doing good community work beyond helping the meeting people and even then, very little of that. In fact, when I was growing up, the idea was specifically preached against. It would be good for the souls of all F&Ws to engage in this and also encourage others to step out into the community to do good things there. I wonder if some F&Ws actually think that if they help out non-meeting people, they may as well be helping out the devil? Clearday ~ You must have grown up and came to age in my generation during the 60's? I also remember workers preaching against doing charitable works within one's community, which I personally thought went entirely against anything resembling Christian behavior. I was in my teens back then and felt this was no witness to the world at large. My present church is very much involved in mission work here at home and abroad and in helping the poor and needy in their midst. Honestly, you don't mind contributing to a church who helps the needy within their own community and others in need in different parts of the world through outreach efforts. It's really inspiring to see young people getting involved in these outreaches and doing their part, too. I would call that hands-on Christianity and feel that's what Jesus would have liked to see among those claiming a relationship with Him?
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 14, 2013 16:49:01 GMT -5
My understanding is that money donated to workers has been taxed. And that money donated to registered churches has not been taxed. Fixit ~ I'm a little confused here, too? Are you talking about the money that friends donated to the workers have already had taxes deducted, so it doesn't count? My guess would also be that the money donated to registered churches is not only accounted for in the church records, but the outflow is also shown to the various sources. I'm sure also that the church members who donate to them have already paid taxes through their payroll deductions when they received their checks. Also, members within the churches are given a statement at the end of the year regarding their donations, so as they can include them among charitable deductions on their own taxes. However, there is no such accounting by workers or overseers regarding their own funds received and their distribution. The friends are kept "in the dark" completely as to where their money goes once they pass it over to the workers, other than the old story of being denoted to "the Lord's work" anonymously.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 14, 2013 17:29:12 GMT -5
No doubt. Far too many F&Ws who do good community work sneak around to do it. I think the history on this is a misinterpretation of this: "the poor you will always have with you", in error thinking this is an indication that charitable work is futile. That mindset to not be charitable seems like such a contradiction with being a Christian. I honestly cannot comprehend how a Christian could not be totally, 100% dedicated to contribute to the needs of others. I thought it was the whole idea behind the concept of love and compassion and that your Christ taught that. He may have stated a fact about the poor, but he spent a lot of his time healing, and helping those who needed him. How could his example ever be misinterpreted so drastically? How, if we are loving and compassionate, can we sit still and NOT help those in need around us? Snow ~ I definitely agree with your assessment above, considering how much the "worldly churches" tend to be involved in outreach ministries within their churches and the F&W's tend to discourage it entirely due to held opinions of the hierarchy. Something definitely is not right here?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Oct 14, 2013 17:34:20 GMT -5
My understanding is that money donated to workers has been taxed. And that money donated to registered churches has not been taxed. Fixit ~ I'm a little confused here, too? Are you talking about the money that friends donated to the workers have already had taxes deducted, so it doesn't count? My guess would also be that the money donated to registered churches is not only accounted for in the church records, but the outflow is also shown to the various sources. I'm sure also that the church members who donate to them have already paid taxes through their payroll deductions when they received their checks. Also, members within the churches are given a statement at the end of the year regarding their donations, so as they can include them among charitable deductions on their own taxes. However, there is no such accounting by workers or overseers regarding their own funds received and their distribution. The friends are kept "in the dark" completely as to where their money goes once they pass it over to the workers, other than the old story of being denoted to "the Lord's work" anonymously. If the friends were given a statement at the end of the year regarding their donations they could claim tax deductions. If workers registered as a tax exempt organisation the government would receive less revenue because the friends would claim tax refunds on their donations. This has been discussed before on TMB.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 14, 2013 17:35:23 GMT -5
I agree about the word being "hollow"....seems there is a misspelling of hollow to hallow....hallow is not indicative of a hole of nothing.....and yes, there are many "plates" of the earth and this is what is constantly moving and seems gravity and gases, etc keep them moving so that in order the earth doesn't go "big bang" again, I suppose....but in the meantime we do see such awful devastations by volcanoes and earthquakes....but if those didn't happen, would the earth just get into such pressure it would pop and then nothing but smoke? I think the earth letting off 'steam' every now and then is likely a good thing. Snow ~ the same thing goes for people ~ it's sometimes a good stress reliever.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 14, 2013 17:39:48 GMT -5
Fixit ~ I'm a little confused here, too? Are you talking about the money that friends donated to the workers have already had taxes deducted, so it doesn't count? My guess would also be that the money donated to registered churches is not only accounted for in the church records, but the outflow is also shown to the various sources. I'm sure also that the church members who donate to them have already paid taxes through their payroll deductions when they received their checks. Also, members within the churches are given a statement at the end of the year regarding their donations, so as they can include them among charitable deductions on their own taxes. However, there is no such accounting by workers or overseers regarding their own funds received and their distribution. The friends are kept "in the dark" completely as to where their money goes once they pass it over to the workers, other than the old story of being denoted to "the Lord's work" anonymously. If the friends were given a statement at the end of the year regarding their donations they could claim tax deductions. If workers registered as a tax exempt organisation the government would receive less revenue because the friends would claim tax refunds on their donations. This has been discussed before on TMB. Fixit ~ In other words, I believe you are indicating that the friends get the "short end of the stick" because they can't claim any deductions without a source to put down and the fellowship is " not an organization" although very organized world-wide. Also, I personally feel that unless tax exempt organizations can show tangible proof that they are non-profit, they should be paying taxes and sharing the burden with the rest of society. That also goes for the Vatican, too! When you think of all these well known TV evangelists as well reaping in the millions off of public donations and getting all these tax breaks and living high on the hog, it makes me sick. Perhaps if they were also made accountable in their finances, our national and global economy would be in a lot better place today?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Oct 14, 2013 18:44:11 GMT -5
If the friends were given a statement at the end of the year regarding their donations they could claim tax deductions. If workers registered as a tax exempt organisation the government would receive less revenue because the friends would claim tax refunds on their donations. This has been discussed before on TMB. Fixit ~ In other words, I believe you are indicating that the friends get the "short end of the stick" because they can't claim any deductions without a source to put down and the fellowship is " not an organization" although very organized world-wide. Also, I personally feel that unless tax exempt organizations can show tangible proof that they are non-profit, they should be paying taxes and sharing the burden with the rest of society. That also goes for the Vatican, too! When you think of all these well known TV evangelists as well reaping in the millions off of public donations and getting all these tax breaks and living high on the hog, it makes me sick. Perhaps if they were also made accountable in their finances, our national and global economy would be in a lot better place today? I wouldn't say the friends get the "short end of the stick", but I do say the government would get the "short end of the stick" if the F&W were a registered church. It's stupid to suggest that F&W are ripping off the tax system compared with other religious organisations.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 14, 2013 19:58:14 GMT -5
If the friends were given a statement at the end of the year regarding their donations they could claim tax deductions. If workers registered as a tax exempt organisation the government would receive less revenue because the friends would claim tax refunds on their donations. This has been discussed before on TMB. Fixit ~ In other words, I believe you are indicating that the friends get the "short end of the stick" because they can't claim any deductions without a source to put down and the fellowship is " not an organization" although very organized world-wide. Also, I personally feel that unless tax exempt organizations can show tangible proof that they are non-profit, they should be paying taxes and sharing the burden with the rest of society. That also goes for the Vatican, too! When you think of all these well known TV evangelists as well reaping in the millions off of public donations and getting all these tax breaks and living high on the hog, it makes me sick. Perhaps if they were also made accountable in their finances, our national and global economy would be in a lot better place today? Faune, I'm not of the impression that these well known TV evangelists get totally by without having to report "income" and expenses etc. They've put some of them in jail for "tax evasion" and that not too long ago. I know there's been some very fast and furious bookkeeping done at the Billy Graham evangelistic mtgs. though of course Billy is not longer able, but his son and perhaps some grand kids are into trying to keep things up....they would be put out of business very quickly...they have a parochial school or the last I knew of, they did....so they have to keep it all on the up and up. Besides all the music that is song and performed on their shows has to be accounted for and funds turned into the proper music assoc. like ASCAP or SESAC......when there are people doing such things in such apublic manner, they don't get by very long not being accountable for any moneys spent or received......also I know that those who receive the moneys from the audience members have to keep each separated as in if an audience member buys a book, that goes in one place, or if they buy a CD that goes in another place and if they're just donating to the ministries that is in another pot.......I know that there are many people that work behind the curtain so to speak, that very few people know who they are, that keep up with what the laws of the land demand. and of course, there have been and always will be those who want to cheat their own kids. But I also know that it isn't unusual for a tax auditor to make themselves available at these large mission gatherings.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 20:15:03 GMT -5
My understanding is that money donated to workers has been taxed. And that money donated to registered churches has not been taxed. Fixit ~ I'm a little confused here, too? Are you talking about the money that friends donated to the workers have already had taxes deducted, so it doesn't count? My guess would also be that the money donated to registered churches is not only accounted for in the church records, but the outflow is also shown to the various sources. I'm sure also that the church members who donate to them have already paid taxes through their payroll deductions when they received their checks. Also, members within the churches are given a statement at the end of the year regarding their donations, so as they can include them among charitable deductions on their own taxes. However, there is no such accounting by workers or overseers regarding their own funds received and their distribution. The friends are kept "in the dark" completely as to where their money goes once they pass it over to the workers, other than the old story of being denoted to "the Lord's work" anonymously. While you are quite right about the lack of accountability of money to the friends, that is a separate issue from the tax issue. Does it make sense to you that, based on the F&W system of tax accounting compared to the typical church tax accounting, that the friends pay more tax under their system? If not, we can run through the numbers.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Oct 14, 2013 20:31:48 GMT -5
When you think of all these well known TV evangelists as well reaping in the millions off of public donations and getting all these tax breaks and living high on the hog, it makes me sick. :P Perhaps if they were also made accountable in their finances, our national and global economy would be in a lot better place today? How do you feel about the people who keep sending them money?
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 14, 2013 20:50:56 GMT -5
When you think of all these well known TV evangelists as well reaping in the millions off of public donations and getting all these tax breaks and living high on the hog, it makes me sick. Perhaps if they were also made accountable in their finances, our national and global economy would be in a lot better place today? How do you feel about the people who keep sending them money? Rational ~ I consider it downright foolish to support such charlatans on national TV! I'm sure people could find a lot of worthy causes to fund if they look hard enough? nakedlaw.avvo.com/celebrities/6-outrageously-wealthy-preachers-under-federal-investigation.html
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 14, 2013 20:57:03 GMT -5
Fixit ~ I'm a little confused here, too? Are you talking about the money that friends donated to the workers have already had taxes deducted, so it doesn't count? My guess would also be that the money donated to registered churches is not only accounted for in the church records, but the outflow is also shown to the various sources. I'm sure also that the church members who donate to them have already paid taxes through their payroll deductions when they received their checks. Also, members within the churches are given a statement at the end of the year regarding their donations, so as they can include them among charitable deductions on their own taxes. However, there is no such accounting by workers or overseers regarding their own funds received and their distribution. The friends are kept "in the dark" completely as to where their money goes once they pass it over to the workers, other than the old story of being denoted to "the Lord's work" anonymously. While you are quite right about the lack of accountability of money to the friends, that is a separate issue from the tax issue. Does it make sense to you that, based on the F&W system of tax accounting compared to the typical church tax accounting, that the friends pay more tax under their system? If not, we can run through the numbers. Clearday ~ Well, I feel the friends who are in charge of the workers' books probably due pay more taxes, since accounts are set up in their name? However, exactly how honest is that for an organization that calls themselves "the Truth?" Also, since the friends cannot claim their charitable donations on their taxes, they probably pay more taxes and not less. It appears to me that the workers get all the benefits and the friends get to pick up the tab for them? Today that would include expensive laptops, cell phones, fleet cars, and special accomodations within the friends home, where they expect to be treated like kings and queens. Not a bad deal for a few meetings a week with all the fringe benefits attached to the position.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 14, 2013 21:02:27 GMT -5
Fixit ~ In other words, I believe you are indicating that the friends get the "short end of the stick" because they can't claim any deductions without a source to put down and the fellowship is " not an organization" although very organized world-wide. Also, I personally feel that unless tax exempt organizations can show tangible proof that they are non-profit, they should be paying taxes and sharing the burden with the rest of society. That also goes for the Vatican, too! When you think of all these well known TV evangelists as well reaping in the millions off of public donations and getting all these tax breaks and living high on the hog, it makes me sick. Perhaps if they were also made accountable in their finances, our national and global economy would be in a lot better place today? Faune, I'm not of the impression that these well known TV evangelists get totally by without having to report "income" and expenses etc. They've put some of them in jail for "tax evasion" and that not too long ago. I know there's been some very fast and furious bookkeeping done at the Billy Graham evangelistic mtgs. though of course Billy is not longer able, but his son and perhaps some grand kids are into trying to keep things up....they would be put out of business very quickly...they have a parochial school or the last I knew of, they did....so they have to keep it all on the up and up. Besides all the music that is song and performed on their shows has to be accounted for and funds turned into the proper music assoc. like ASCAP or SESAC......when there are people doing such things in such apublic manner, they don't get by very long not being accountable for any moneys spent or received......also I know that those who receive the moneys from the audience members have to keep each separated as in if an audience member buys a book, that goes in one place, or if they buy a CD that goes in another place and if they're just donating to the ministries that is in another pot.......I know that there are many people that work behind the curtain so to speak, that very few people know who they are, that keep up with what the laws of the land demand. and of course, there have been and always will be those who want to cheat their own kids. But I also know that it isn't unusual for a tax auditor to make themselves available at these large mission gatherings. Sharingtheriches ~ I have no doubt these people actually report their income from the sales of books, CD's, and personal guest appearances. However, it's what these people get to write off that defies imagination. One TV evangelist that comes to mind is Joyce Meyer, who has come under the IRS scrutiny a few times in past years. Bennie Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Ceflo Dollar are three other big names who have also come under federal investigation by IRS for their accounting practices and tax evasion. nakedlaw.avvo.com/celebrities/6-outrageously-wealthy-preachers-under-federal-investigation.html Six Outrageously Wealthy Preachers Under Federal Investigation Cont'd...
|
|
|
Post by déjà vu on Oct 14, 2013 22:26:24 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 22:29:23 GMT -5
While you are quite right about the lack of accountability of money to the friends, that is a separate issue from the tax issue. Does it make sense to you that, based on the F&W system of tax accounting compared to the typical church tax accounting, that the friends pay more tax under their system? If not, we can run through the numbers. Clearday ~ Well, I feel the friends who are in charge of the workers' books probably due pay more taxes, since accounts are set up in their name? However, exactly how honest is that for an organization that calls themselves "the Truth?" Also, since the friends cannot claim their charitable donations on their taxes, they probably pay more taxes and not less. It appears to me that the workers get all the benefits and the friends get to pick up the tab for them? Today that would include expensive laptops, cell phones, fleet cars, and special accomodations within the friends home, where they expect to be treated like kings and queens. Not a bad deal for a few meetings a week with all the fringe benefits attached to the position. You are bringing in additional issues and each one needs to be addressed individually. First there is accountability, then there is the tax structure, both of which you have brought up in a previous post and it seems those have been addressed sufficiently? Now you are adding the issue of how the money is spent, whether modestly or extravagantly. The truth is, the workers do not live an extravagant lifestyle. I would suggest that even considering the higher taxes paid by the friends, they still have a lower cost church system than practically any in the world. The overheads are extremely low, and none of the spending such as "expensive laptops" are out of line with a modest lifestyle, and the laptops and cell phones are simply tools of the work, not fun luxuries. For a worker to have a laptop, a cell phone and a suitcase with some clothes in it, and a borrowed car, it is in the range of extremely modest. Most clergy are fairly low paid but the workers have far less than the typical clergyperson. As far as workers expecting to be "treated like kings and queens", I have to say that my experience does not line up with that. Most workers are near-perfect houseguests, rarely ask for any special favours and never complain about what is offered to them. They don't make the demands of kings and queens or anything like that. Finally, you add the issue of workload. It varies. Some workers are very busy in some fields, while workers in other fields don't have as much to do. In my view it is typically a pretty light workload unless you add in the meal time visits with the hosts as part of their workload, and I suppose it is to some degree. It's not a bad gig for them if you like public speaking and visiting with people.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2013 1:21:28 GMT -5
Clearday ~ Well, I feel the friends who are in charge of the workers' books probably due pay more taxes, since accounts are set up in their name? However, exactly how honest is that for an organization that calls themselves "the Truth?" Also, since the friends cannot claim their charitable donations on their taxes, they probably pay more taxes and not less. It appears to me that the workers get all the benefits and the friends get to pick up the tab for them? Today that would include expensive laptops, cell phones, fleet cars, and special accomodations within the friends home, where they expect to be treated like kings and queens. Not a bad deal for a few meetings a week with all the fringe benefits attached to the position. You are bringing in additional issues and each one needs to be addressed individually. First there is accountability, then there is the tax structure, both of which you have brought up in a previous post and it seems those have been addressed sufficiently? Now you are adding the issue of how the money is spent, whether modestly or extravagantly. The truth is, the workers do not live an extravagant lifestyle. I would suggest that even considering the higher taxes paid by the friends, they still have a lower cost church system than practically any in the world. The overheads are extremely low, and none of the spending such as "expensive laptops" are out of line with a modest lifestyle, and the laptops and cell phones are simply tools of the work, not fun luxuries. For a worker to have a laptop, a cell phone and a suitcase with some clothes in it, and a borrowed car, it is in the range of extremely modest. Most clergy are fairly low paid but the workers have far less than the typical clergyperson. As far as workers expecting to be "treated like kings and queens", I have to say that my experience does not line up with that. Most workers are near-perfect houseguests, rarely ask for any special favours and never complain about what is offered to them. They don't make the demands of kings and queens or anything like that. Finally, you add the issue of workload. It varies. Some workers are very busy in some fields, while workers in other fields don't have as much to do. In my view it is typically a pretty light workload unless you add in the meal time visits with the hosts as part of their workload, and I suppose it is to some degree. It's not a bad gig for them if you like public speaking and visiting with people. The last pair in our field were bored witless. One played solitaire on her computer because she had nothing to do and the other listened to books on tape. They weren't fussy, but they didn't help with anything either--which was okay as it kept them from underfoot. I would imagine this fellowship will continue to be quite cheap until/unless the estate money runs out and the convention/convention travel will become a problem at that point. The basic support for their lifestyle will continue to be cheap, however. Once no one can afford to lend them a car and insurance, then we'll all have to chip in more, I would expect. Our field doesn't have a car so the workers drive a car provided by another field--which works for we cheapskates!
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Oct 15, 2013 1:26:31 GMT -5
The last pair in our field were bored witless. One played solitaire on her computer because she had nothing to do and the other listened to books on tape. They weren't fussy, but they didn't help with anything either--which was okay as it kept them from underfoot. I would imagine this fellowship will continue to be quite cheap until/unless the estate money runs out and the convention/convention travel will become a problem at that point. The basic support for their lifestyle will continue to be cheap, however. Once no one can afford to lend them a car and insurance, then we'll all have to chip in more, I would expect. Our field doesn't have a car so the workers drive a car provided by another field--which works for we cheapskates! What we have is a ministry that bears little resemblance to the workers of 100 years ago who spent most of their time seeking the lost. Those early workers would struggle to relate to many of today's workers I feel.
|
|
|
Post by holdmyhand on Oct 15, 2013 2:55:04 GMT -5
The last pair in our field were bored witless. One played solitaire on her computer because she had nothing to do and the other listened to books on tape. They weren't fussy, but they didn't help with anything either--which was okay as it kept them from underfoot. I would imagine this fellowship will continue to be quite cheap until/unless the estate money runs out and the convention/convention travel will become a problem at that point. The basic support for their lifestyle will continue to be cheap, however. Once no one can afford to lend them a car and insurance, then we'll all have to chip in more, I would expect. Our field doesn't have a car so the workers drive a car provided by another field--which works for we cheapskates! What we have is a ministry that bears little resemblance to the workers of 100 years ago who spent most of their time seeking the lost. Those early workers would struggle to relate to many of today's workers I feel. I agree with you there fixit, they even bear little resemblance of workers 50 years ago. I remember workers using public transport most of the time, taking the opportunity to talk to people while travelling, they moved belongings after a meeting, bringing their bags in the car of their last hosts and swapping over to new hosts after meeting. when public transport wasn't used bikes or walking were often the means of transport, and I don't ever recall them asking my parents to give out flyers, inviting complete strangers, that was there domain My parents lent a caravan to sister workers who were canvassing a remote country area, it was set up in a field and these older ladies washed in an old cast iron bath used as a drinking trough for cattle, in winter they had to break the ice off the top to get to the water. Usually when they stayed in houses they shared a bedroom with their companion, often children were moved out of their room for them to use. Today they have their own phones, laptops, car, in most places they stay they have separate rooms, they spend a lot of time socialising with visiting families and expect us to drop flyers to invite strangers to meetings, Most concerning of all is they don't have a grasp of the gospel, Jesus 'cross' has been displaced with the 'cross of self denial' and stories of things that happened during the week with no bible references or sound doctrine teaching is what we mostly hear,
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Oct 15, 2013 3:40:26 GMT -5
Most concerning of all is they don't have a grasp of the gospel, Jesus 'cross' has been displaced with the 'cross of self denial' and stories of things that happened during the week with no bible references or sound doctrine teaching is what we mostly hear, Perhaps self denial in a legalistic sense to be seen of men, but where is the self denial that really matters? CSA, sexual immorality, marriage breakups, etc proves that self denial is lacking. Sam Jones wrote "'Twas life I got, not theory". Now we're seeing a complete about turn. Theory is being taught, mostly one-true-wayism, and spiritual life is lacking. A form of godliness is taught, while the power of godliness is missing all too often.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2013 7:45:17 GMT -5
You are bringing in additional issues and each one needs to be addressed individually. First there is accountability, then there is the tax structure, both of which you have brought up in a previous post and it seems those have been addressed sufficiently? Now you are adding the issue of how the money is spent, whether modestly or extravagantly. The truth is, the workers do not live an extravagant lifestyle. I would suggest that even considering the higher taxes paid by the friends, they still have a lower cost church system than practically any in the world. The overheads are extremely low, and none of the spending such as "expensive laptops" are out of line with a modest lifestyle, and the laptops and cell phones are simply tools of the work, not fun luxuries. For a worker to have a laptop, a cell phone and a suitcase with some clothes in it, and a borrowed car, it is in the range of extremely modest. Most clergy are fairly low paid but the workers have far less than the typical clergyperson. As far as workers expecting to be "treated like kings and queens", I have to say that my experience does not line up with that. Most workers are near-perfect houseguests, rarely ask for any special favours and never complain about what is offered to them. They don't make the demands of kings and queens or anything like that. Finally, you add the issue of workload. It varies. Some workers are very busy in some fields, while workers in other fields don't have as much to do. In my view it is typically a pretty light workload unless you add in the meal time visits with the hosts as part of their workload, and I suppose it is to some degree. It's not a bad gig for them if you like public speaking and visiting with people. The last pair in our field were bored witless. One played solitaire on her computer because she had nothing to do and the other listened to books on tape. They weren't fussy, but they didn't help with anything either--which was okay as it kept them from underfoot. I would imagine this fellowship will continue to be quite cheap until/unless the estate money runs out and the convention/convention travel will become a problem at that point. The basic support for their lifestyle will continue to be cheap, however. Once no one can afford to lend them a car and insurance, then we'll all have to chip in more, I would expect. Our field doesn't have a car so the workers drive a car provided by another field--which works for we cheapskates! I have seen really busy ones and really stationary ones. The last really busy worker was a sister worker who was dealing with CSA victims. The phone was ringing off the hook for her from victims seeking her help. That was nearly 20 years ago. It was great to see a sister worker filling a very needed place, and one who was open to talking about subjects like that. At the other end of the spectrum, more recently I analyzed the amount of time over the period of a week that a pair did "worker work". If I recall, it was 8 hours for one and 10 hours for the other. The rest of the time was bedroom time and meal time. It seems to me that it would be much more difficult to do that little than it would be to get out there into the community and meet people, but that's just me, perhaps this job really suits some people. As far as the estate money goes, that supports the convention system and the foreign worker system. If it dried up, as you suggest, it wouldn't affect the meeting system.
|
|
|
Post by blandie on Oct 15, 2013 10:59:54 GMT -5
I would imagine this fellowship will continue to be quite cheap until/unless the estate money runs out and the convention/convention travel will become a problem at that point. The basic support for their lifestyle will continue to be cheap, however. If going on the cheap then I would think the average friends would welcome handling everything above board and being able to legitimately deduct their contributions from their taxes. As it is some do deduct their donations to the workers the same as they would do for an official-registered church or charity so something is afoul of the law one way or the other plus it just looks bad for a group that calls itself the Truth to be so secretive about money and why not be transparent and leave no room for speculations?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Oct 15, 2013 13:47:31 GMT -5
Those who say the 2x2 church should be registered - how would that work in practical terms?
Would workers become employees and receive wages?
Would convention grounds and workers cars become church property?
Would elders take a collection in fellowship meetings to fund it?
Frankly I prefer the current system. Generally speaking no one asks for money and I doubt that donors want to know where the money is spent.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 15, 2013 14:08:27 GMT -5
I'm shocked at Cherie! I've never known her to be so curt and unfeeling! Thanks, snow, faune, and STR.... Many of you have known for me many years I have made a few mistakes on TMB but I am NOT crazy! Perhaps, Brad's mom didn't know where and how I heard the story about Brad getting married. The man I heard from was an elder, he posted on TMB in the past. Brad rent a room in his housed before. I labored in his field when I was in the work, we chat about TMB when and other things when I see him at conventions. I'm surprised that he got the news about Brad L. way off the mark. I should have paid close attention when he mentioned who it was shared the information. Sharingtheriches ~ I'm glad to see that some others were also shocked over the contents of that earlier response to Nathan by Cherie. He definitely did not deserve to be treated in such a "curt and unfeeling" way on a public board! Just because he received some wrong information from another party doesn't warrant such a cold-hearted response!
|
|
|
Post by blandie on Oct 15, 2013 15:06:42 GMT -5
Those who say the 2x2 church should be registered - how would that work in practical terms? Filing would work the same as any other group organized as a religious body. It has been done in other countries already so the little step of filing - and it isn't complicated to do - isn't insurmountable or unthinkable. Donations would be deductible and the friends dollars would go further. That would not need to change at all although it would be an option if needed or beneficial. Some that are bought and paid for and maintained by overseers and trusts probably would and that would be a good thing because it would be cleaner to manage when the people on the grounds die or want to move on or when an overseer dies or when trustees die or become incapacitated or etc. Why would they? Not all churches take collections by passing a plate or box and there'd be very few that require that people give. F&W collections are taken now and passing the folding money in a handshake or in an envelope is still collections in anybodys book except those who have done those word-tricks to justify claims that've always been inaccurate. You're correct that many won't care to look at the books any more than they do in other churches and for that matter few stockholders ever bother to read through annual reports - even less the books - of the companies in which they invest. They care more about results than the books but theres a comfort level in knowing that the accounting is available and that there is a paper trail for when the results raise questions or when a leader dies or when something goes awry legally or whatever. It also looks a lot more above board and permanently squashes the semantic lies that have been told to outsiders and noobies about 'no organization' and 'penniless' and etc. The whole secrecy culture is a huge drain and makes the system look more like a Mexican cartel money laundering outfit than something thats designed to reach out to proclaim truth to the world.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Oct 15, 2013 15:15:29 GMT -5
I couldn't live the life of a worker for all the tax free money and all the luxuries in the world.....
i could much more easily live the life of John Long during his itinerant days. Visiting people, home to home, having lunch with different people...different bed every night, sometimes in the same room as a companion i didn't choose....You cant be serious....This is slow torchure!!
I really don't think half the workers could do it either if they didn't believe this was the one true ministry, and they have been called.
uuggggggg!!!! I get anxiety just thinking about that life style!!
|
|
|
Post by holdmyhand on Oct 15, 2013 16:18:36 GMT -5
I couldn't live the life of a worker for all the tax free money and all the luxuries in the world..... i could much more easily live the life of John Long during his itinerant days. Visiting people, home to home, having lunch with different people...different bed every night, sometimes in the same room as a companion i didn't choose....You cant be serious....This is slow torchure!! I really don't think half the workers could do it either if they didn't believe this was the one true ministry, and they have been called. uuggggggg!!!! I get anxiety just thinking about that life style!! Jondough - Do you think you could live the lifestyle of 'Philip the evangelist' we read of in Acts I don't think the early apostles would have ever contemplated living like our workers do
|
|