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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 12:45:27 GMT -5
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Post by Greg on Oct 9, 2013 13:15:28 GMT -5
I heard at Boring convention that Brad Lewis got married and living in the eastcoast. Congratulation, Brad. Did that come from the platform?
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Post by Mary on Oct 9, 2013 14:18:51 GMT -5
Congratulations to Brad and his wife for their marriage.
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Post by jondough on Oct 9, 2013 14:49:08 GMT -5
Um....we've gone over this one before.......
If workers /church pay taxes/file income tax return, the friends could deduct the donations......IRS looses....
Bark up a different tree.
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Post by fixit on Oct 9, 2013 14:52:33 GMT -5
Its a mixed message.
What's Brad's biggest concern ... to stop kids getting molested or to make workers register for tax?
Or simply to condemn and destroy the church in any way that he can?
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Post by jondough on Oct 9, 2013 14:53:58 GMT -5
Its a mixed message. What's Brad's biggest concern ... to stop kids getting molested or to make workers register for tax? Or simply to condemn and destroy the church in any way that he can? #3
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Post by fixit on Oct 9, 2013 14:58:02 GMT -5
Tax has been discussed before on TMB.
Registering the church for tax purposes would likely result in less money for the IRS, so why would a senator want to make an issue of it?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 15:15:11 GMT -5
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 9, 2013 15:46:35 GMT -5
Hadn't ever been at that site before. That Brad guy sure sounds angry. It's nice that the "exes" here are a little more level-headed for the most part, pointing out flaws in the F&W without completely flying off the handle. You can say a lot of things about the F&W, but "they don't believe in God" or in the cleansing power of Jesus. Hmm. I think you maybe able to say that they do not believe Jesus was/is God ken
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Post by fixit on Oct 9, 2013 17:24:21 GMT -5
Hadn't ever been at that site before. That Brad guy sure sounds angry. It's nice that the "exes" here are a little more level-headed for the most part, pointing out flaws in the F&W without completely flying off the handle. You can say a lot of things about the F&W, but "they don't believe in God" or in the cleansing power of Jesus. Hmm. I think you maybe able to say that they do not believe Jesus was/is God ken 1. "They don't believe Jesus is God" For most F&W, guilty as charged. 2. "They don't believe in the cleansing power of Jesus" A ridiculous claim. If that was true a lot of hymns would need to be removed from the hymn book.
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Post by blacksheep on Oct 9, 2013 17:34:13 GMT -5
Hadn't ever been at that site before. That Brad guy sure sounds angry. It's nice that the "exes" here are a little more level-headed for the most part, pointing out flaws in the F&W without completely flying off the handle. You can say a lot of things about the F&W, but "they don't believe in God" or in the cleansing power of Jesus. Hmm. Its been my observation that a person's anger (an ex's) is often proportional to the amount of dedication that person had while "professing". At one point, Brad "bought in" completely. 2x2ism was his whole life. Those who's participation was limited to bi-weekly meeting attendance (a social occasion), and were not strict adherents of the rules and customs outside the meeting, (in other words not "true-believers") have relatively little anger upon moving on. Generally speaking. Brad gave a lot of himself; recovery is a process, not an event.
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Post by snow on Oct 9, 2013 17:58:00 GMT -5
Hadn't ever been at that site before. That Brad guy sure sounds angry. It's nice that the "exes" here are a little more level-headed for the most part, pointing out flaws in the F&W without completely flying off the handle. You can say a lot of things about the F&W, but "they don't believe in God" or in the cleansing power of Jesus. Hmm. Its been my observation that a person's anger (an ex's) is often proportional to the amount of dedication that person had while "professing". At one point, Brad "bought in" completely. 2x2ism was his whole life. Those who's participation was limited to bi-weekly meeting attendance (a social occasion), and were not strict adherents of the rules and customs outside the meeting, (in other words not "true-believers") have relatively little anger upon moving on. Generally speaking. Brad gave a lot of himself; recovery is a process, not an event. That's what I see too. The more passionate they were about the Truth being the truth, the harder it is for them when they leave or have to leave as was the case with him. Lots to process. I have often thought about the courage it takes for someone, born and raised, to leave after 50 or 60 years in the Truth. If they were kicked out, how hard that would be for them. The sense of betrayal would be huge! Also, the sense that their lives were wasted on a system that proved itself to be something other than what they thought it was. I didn't have much invested so I can walk away without too much problem. I did many many years ago and I still feel some anger at having had to be raised in the system that my parents were passionate about. So how much more difficult would it be for those who bought it completely then got kicked out for asking questions and not having the 'right' testimony.
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 10, 2013 5:27:16 GMT -5
I think you maybe able to say that they do not believe Jesus was/is God ken Right. Don't believe they are one and the same, I think that is a correct statement for most of the F&W. Was Jesus sitting at his own right hand? Was God well-pleased in his beloved self? Many on these boards make good, rational points about things that could be improved or are flawed with the fellowship. I see from other comments now that this Brad guy is known for leaving all rationality behind, as he clearly is mixing 1 part of legit concerns with 10 parts of unbridled anger and slanderous lies/assumptions/generalizations. haroldjj I believe you kinda leave yourself flatfooted when you deny that Jesus and the Fathers are one. So many references to the godhead or 3 in one and the term trinity pervades most who are bible scholars. Who can forgive us and cleanes us from sin. I know this is touchy subject but one that the F&Ws need to examine for themselves and not listen to those who think they know it all. Did not Jesus give credit and direction to wait for the comforter who would teach them all things. Perhaps there is no belief in that part of the Godhead also. After all the workers seem to claim all responsibility for the direction of Gods people Sad ken
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 7:23:26 GMT -5
Right. Don't believe they are one and the same, I think that is a correct statement for most of the F&W. Was Jesus sitting at his own right hand? Was God well-pleased in his beloved self? Many on these boards make good, rational points about things that could be improved or are flawed with the fellowship. I see from other comments now that this Brad guy is known for leaving all rationality behind, as he clearly is mixing 1 part of legit concerns with 10 parts of unbridled anger and slanderous lies/assumptions/generalizations. haroldjj I believe you kinda leave yourself flatfooted when you deny that Jesus and the Fathers are one. So many references to the godhead or 3 in one and the term trinity pervades most who are bible scholars. Sad ken Speaking of flatfooted Ken, I suppose this makes everyone God just like Jesus: "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." I think you just have to acknowledge that 2x2's have good biblical reasons to believe what they do on this subject even if you don't agree with them. Hopefully you don't come to the same conclusion as Mr.Grey that they are a "particularly dangerous cult" when they actually have given a lot of serious thought to this and came up with a conclusion that is different from the crowds. It's not a touchy subject at all Ken. If you believe Jesus which I know you do, Jesus told people that they themselves have the power to forgive their own sin. All you have to do to exercise that power is to forgive others. "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." So Jesus exercised that same power. He forgave others and his heavenly Father also did so. It was the Pharisees who made a big deal out of him doing that and tried to make him into God, which is identical to your argument. I suppose if they understood his teachings, they would have hung up all his followers too for forgiving others. Your argument would make Peter into God as well: ""Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Surely only God has the power to bind and loose in heaven?
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 10, 2013 8:26:12 GMT -5
haroldjj I believe you kinda leave yourself flatfooted when you deny that Jesus and the Fathers are one. So many references to the godhead or 3 in one and the term trinity pervades most who are bible scholars. Sad ken Speaking of flatfooted Ken, I suppose this makes everyone God just like Jesus: "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." I think you just have to acknowledge that 2x2's have good biblical reasons to believe what they do on this subject even if you don't agree with them. Hopefully you don't come to the same conclusion as Mr.Grey that they are a "particularly dangerous cult" when they actually have given a lot of serious thought to this and came up with a conclusion that is different from the crowds. It's not a touchy subject at all Ken. If you believe Jesus which I know you do, Jesus told people that they themselves have the power to forgive their own sin. All you have to do to exercise that power is to forgive others. "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." So Jesus exercised that same power. He forgave others and his heavenly Father also did so. It was the Pharisees who made a big deal out of him doing that and tried to make him into God, which is identical to your argument. I suppose if they understood his teachings, they would have hung up all his followers too for forgiving others. Your argument would make Peter into God as well: ""Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Surely only God has the power to bind and loose in heaven? CD Appreciate your comments Its up to the individual to sort out who God is and who he isn't. It is easy to critisize the concept but hard to deny the reality. All sorts of arguements come to mind to refute the diety of Christ,create confusion, etc. Anything that folks can hang their hat on to deny Who Jesus was.I am obliged to remind folks of those words that are spoken at judgement I never knew you. Where will we be and what a shock if those words were to us. In the defense of Irving Grey. It is a dangerous thing to not know Jesus as one of the three in the Godhead. God is merciful JMT ken
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 8:45:00 GMT -5
Speaking of flatfooted Ken, I suppose this makes everyone God just like Jesus: "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." I think you just have to acknowledge that 2x2's have good biblical reasons to believe what they do on this subject even if you don't agree with them. Hopefully you don't come to the same conclusion as Mr.Grey that they are a "particularly dangerous cult" when they actually have given a lot of serious thought to this and came up with a conclusion that is different from the crowds. It's not a touchy subject at all Ken. If you believe Jesus which I know you do, Jesus told people that they themselves have the power to forgive their own sin. All you have to do to exercise that power is to forgive others. "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." So Jesus exercised that same power. He forgave others and his heavenly Father also did so. It was the Pharisees who made a big deal out of him doing that and tried to make him into God, which is identical to your argument. I suppose if they understood his teachings, they would have hung up all his followers too for forgiving others. Your argument would make Peter into God as well: ""Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Surely only God has the power to bind and loose in heaven? CD Appreciate your comments Its up to the individual to sort out who God is and who he isn't. It is easy to critisize the concept but hard to deny the reality. All sorts of arguements come to mind to refute the diety of Christ,create confusion, etc. Anything that folks can hang their hat on to deny Who Jesus was.I am obliged to remind folks of those words that are spoken at judgement I never knew you. Where will we be and what a shock if those words were to us. In the defense of Irving Grey. It is a dangerous thing to not know Jesus as one of the three in the Godhead. God is merciful JMT ken Ken, perhaps you could explain the "danger" of not knowing that "Jesus as one of the three in the Godhead" but rather knowing "Jesus as the Son of God and Saviour of mankind"? Please explain the danger in one and not the other. What is at risk and what is your biblical backup for that notion?
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Post by quizzer on Oct 10, 2013 9:49:52 GMT -5
Hadn't ever been at that site before. That Brad guy sure sounds angry. It's nice that the "exes" here are a little more level-headed for the most part, pointing out flaws in the F&W without completely flying off the handle. You can say a lot of things about the F&W, but "they don't believe in God" or in the cleansing power of Jesus. Hmm. A lot of the exes have been able to work their pain, and have had time to do so. Why are you upset with someone crying in pain when the meetings have hurt them? Shouldn't you be more concerned about why the meetings would intentionally hurt someone (especially since you're still attending the meetings)? ...besides, the website has some reasonable thoughts to consider...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 10, 2013 10:28:36 GMT -5
Hadn't ever been at that site before. That Brad guy sure sounds angry. It's nice that the "exes" here are a little more level-headed for the most part, pointing out flaws in the F&W without completely flying off the handle. You can say a lot of things about the F&W, but "they don't believe in God" or in the cleansing power of Jesus. Hmm. Its been my observation that a person's anger (an ex's) is often proportional to the amount of dedication that person had while "professing". At one point, Brad "bought in" completely. 2x2ism was his whole life. Those who's participation was limited to bi-weekly meeting attendance (a social occasion), and were not strict adherents of the rules and customs outside the meeting, (in other words not "true-believers") have relatively little anger upon moving on. Generally speaking. Brad gave a lot of himself; recovery is a process, not an event. Yes, Brad did give a lot of himself...perhaps he was one of the youngest workers ever taken into the ministry! He was born and bred for that purpose according to some.....and I think as living with his own family of his own making will help a lot of those bitter memories to at least take on a less then important issue in his life. Congratulations to Brad on his marriage and may you be blessed beyond believing in your marriage...you deserve some joy....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 10, 2013 10:38:03 GMT -5
I think you maybe able to say that they do not believe Jesus was/is God ken Right. Don't believe they are one and the same, I think that is a correct statement for most of the F&W. Was Jesus sitting at his own right hand? Was God well-pleased in his beloved self? Many on these boards make good, rational points about things that could be improved or are flawed with the fellowship. I see from other comments now that this Brad guy is known for leaving all rationality behind, as he clearly is mixing 1 part of legit concerns with 10 parts of unbridled anger and slanderous lies/assumptions/generalizations. They are the same...what do you understand from John's gospel and I think you know that John the Apostle was the one whom Jesus loved! His best friend, who Jesus shared things with that other Apostles didn't share? REvelations is proof of that privilege...John is the best friend of the Bridegroom......but John says in the very first chapter of his gospel "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word WAS God." A later verse, think it's about the 8th verse says that the Word took on flesh and lived amongst man kind.....I read also in one of Paul's letter to Timothy I think it was.....that ".....God was made manifest in the flesh...." And Paul was speaking about Jesus. It is a thing hard to understand for it is a simple mystery of God.......there are 3 persons within the makeup of "God".....kind of like a royal family....You have king and queen(who is the king's consort and all that means) and then you have the "royal heir" and they all 3 will carry the same last name.....so thus they will or could all be called by that last name...which might be for example here....the "Royal Smith" which would and should be known to mean that "Royal Smith" speaks to the King and his Queen and his heir........ And I know some of the 2x2's believe that Jesus IS THE WORD made living.....so if THE WORD is God...then doesn't that make Jesus to be God as well? The Word is what was crucified on the cross...did not any of the workers or friends ever realize that? Also that human body that was Jesus' and placed on the cross had already been transfigured into a form that could have gone on to heaven at any time and not had to been crucified......but the "LOVE OF GOD" led Jesus on to Calvary's cross and bought eternal life to those that believe on Jesus Christ and that his sacrifice IS ENOUGH to cleanse any of us and all of us from our sins.....
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 10, 2013 14:09:28 GMT -5
honestabe/CD Folks have wrestled with this issue for years.Glad for Nathans and sharingthe riches input which is much better than my input and brings a little history to the table too. Heart soul and spirit all have a part in the human body so perhaps its not so difficult to accept a 3 in One Godhead. The flesh asking for help from the mind and spirit to complete the mission planned from the creation where we see Jesus as the word. THE FLESH IS WILLING BUT THE SPIRIT IS WEAK. The prince of this world loves to decieve and many convinced Jesus is not God. Defending that position are many of the workers and we have many examples showing just of how right they are in thought and deed. For those who have courage to say Jesus is God can expect all kinds of rejection but take heart Jesus faced rejection also. JMT ken
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 14:41:11 GMT -5
honestabe/CD Folks have wrestled with this issue for years.Glad for Nathans and sharingthe riches input which is much better than my input and brings a little history to the table too. Heart soul and spirit all have a part in the human body so perhaps its not so difficult to accept a 3 in One Godhead. The flesh asking for help from the mind and spirit to complete the mission planned from the creation where we see Jesus as the word. THE FLESH IS WILLING BUT THE SPIRIT IS WEAK. The prince of this world loves to decieve and many convinced Jesus is not God. Defending that position are many of the workers and we have many examples showing just of how right they are in thought and deed. JMT ken Are you saying that someone who believes in Jesus Christ the Son of God, Lord of Lords, King of Kings and Saviour of mankind is in danger? The interesting thing is that Jesus never said he was God so he never faced any rejection for that. Does it really make sense that people should face rejection for something Jesus himself didn't face rejection? The truth is, the rejection Jesus faced was from the religious people, but the people who could relate to him and find value in his teachings followed him. Today, it's the religious people who reject those who don't quite agree with their theology.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 14:57:48 GMT -5
Nathan, if they are 3 separate entities, then there must be at least 3 Gods. That is called polytheism.
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 10, 2013 16:22:36 GMT -5
Nathan/STR/CD It is very hard for people who have heard and digested words time after time and believed when others call the belief into question.Nathan thanks for the references. Revelation has lots of evidence some not to be understood now but will all come true. When John was asked to eat the little book in Rev 10:7-10 it was sweet as honey to the taste then bitter in the belly. We love the things that are sweet but not so much the bitter belly. Glad for the things we understand,enjoy but we avoid the things that create an upset stomach. Many of our held on to thoughts need vetting. Do we believe in God. Believe also in Jesus. Do we believe in the Holy Spirit. Do we believe in the one who sends the Holy Spirit. Can we understand without the Holy Spirit revelation. Is there a relationship with the Holy Spirit and Jesus and not God. Just some questions and thoughts to ponder. Good to get the right answers while this life plays out. ken
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 10, 2013 16:28:00 GMT -5
Nathan, if they are 3 separate entities, then there must be at least 3 Gods. That is called polytheism. CD Rise above this thought. We are not saying three different Gods but one with different responcibilities You full well know exactly what Nathan,STR and I are talking about . In an effort to defend erroneous thought and but when not using biblical reference to back accusations, these arguements fail. Ken
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 17:48:25 GMT -5
Nathan, if they are 3 separate entities, then there must be at least 3 Gods. That is called polytheism. CD Rise above this thought. We are not saying three different Gods but one with different responcibilities You full well know exactly what Nathan,STR and I are talking about . In an effort to defend erroneous thought and but when not using biblical reference to back accusations, these arguements fail. Ken It's a work-around Ken and I think that deep down you know it. I don't have any problem with you believing the theology structure that you do believe, but to suggest that any other way of seeing it is "dangerous" and that God will say "I don't know you" smacks of phariseeism. You're a great guy but I think you are caught up in something no different than what you were caught up in with 2x2ism: exclusivism based on a narrow and shaky foundation of theory.
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Post by snow on Oct 10, 2013 19:16:45 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 10, 2013 21:08:04 GMT -5
haroldjj I believe you kinda leave yourself flatfooted when you deny that Jesus and the Fathers are one. So many references to the godhead or 3 in one and the term trinity pervades most who are bible scholars. Sad ken Speaking of flatfooted Ken, I suppose this makes everyone God just like Jesus: "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." I think you just have to acknowledge that 2x2's have good biblical reasons to believe what they do on this subject even if you don't agree with them. Hopefully you don't come to the same conclusion as Mr.Grey that they are a "particularly dangerous cult" when they actually have given a lot of serious thought to this and came up with a conclusion that is different from the crowds. It's not a touchy subject at all Ken. If you believe Jesus which I know you do, Jesus told people that they themselves have the power to forgive their own sin. All you have to do to exercise that power is to forgive others. "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." So Jesus exercised that same power. He forgave others and his heavenly Father also did so. It was the Pharisees who made a big deal out of him doing that and tried to make him into God, which is identical to your argument. I suppose if they understood his teachings, they would have hung up all his followers too for forgiving others. Your argument would make Peter into God as well: ""Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Surely only God has the power to bind and loose in heaven? Having power to forgive our own sins? I heard something the other day and it was used by an 8 yr. old boy who found himself without family or not knowing where he was to live due to his mother's death in an airplane crash...but anyway the small fry had it quite well, IMO...He told a woman who felt cheated on by her husband and the little boy's mother...but in the end she regretted the way she'd treated the little boy, then she made effort to get the boy to her home for them to raise with their 2 little girls....the children being half brother/half sisters...but this woman had been very nasty to the little boy and in the end he told her he forgave her and then he asked her if she knew why he forgave her.....she said No she had not idea....he told her "Love happens when you forgive." Pretty wise lil boy, eh?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 10, 2013 21:15:05 GMT -5
Ken, You make it seem like the devil is deceiving me into having no respect of Jesus or thinking he had no power. All I'm saying is that Jesus isn't the same exact entity as God. John 3:35 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. So yes, I think Jesus has basically the same power as God and rules along with God. If you want to call the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one "Godhead", I suppose that doesn't really contradict what I'm saying, but I'm just not gonna say Jesus is God, because I believe they are separate entities, though very much inseparably linked. Anyways, this is far off the main top of this thread. But these are just my thoughts from reading the new testament, particularly the gospels and of Jesus's time on earth. Do you believe John's gospel in the NT? Do you believe that Jesus was the Word made manifest in his human body? Do you believe that it says that the Word "was God"? Those aren't words that I've heard any worker preach on and they are plain as the nose on our faces...it doesn't take much gumption to understand those plain words of JOhn's gospel...now does it. You know honestabe.....I've been totally undone by the fact that for some reason that chapter in JOhn was not repeatedly given as a Wed. nite study like Matt. 1 is and you know what little spiritual information is in Mt. 1? But for some reason the second generation of workers lost the knowledge of the triune God...it says "godhead bodily" in describing Jesus....and it is in the "singular" sense "godhead".......and Jesus even taught that baptizing was to be done "In the 'name' singular....of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost...... For over 60 yrs. the information that JOhn was giving as far as Jesus was concerned in John 1 and even in the chapter I just read in one of the books to Timothy where it says that God was made manifest in the flesh and it is talking about Jesus Christ having been on the earth and was crucified that we might have faith in him and KNOWING full well that his sacrifice is more then adequate to "justify" us that are believers!
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