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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2021 11:32:42 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2021 11:44:37 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2021 13:44:18 GMT -5
Chinese Proverbs
- It's better to be without a book than to believe a book entirely.
- Talk does not cook rice.
- Experience is a comb which nature gives us when we are bald.
- Two good talkers are not worth one good listener.
- A hundred no's are less agonizing than one insincere yes.
- Want a thing long enough and you don't.
- The people who talk the best are not the only ones who can tell you the most interesting things.
- The person who is his own master cannot tolerate another boss.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 14:23:34 GMT -5
There are several contradictions with the separation of church and state and how they actually put things in motion. Such as having church services in the capitol building by both jefferson and madison and up to the time of the civil war. wallbuilders.com/church-u-s-capitol/And it does not matter one whit if some of them were deists or not they still believed in God.
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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2021 15:14:28 GMT -5
There are several contradictions with the separation of church and state and how they actually put things in motion. Such as having church services in the capitol building by both jefferson and madison and up to the time of the civil war. wallbuilders.com/church-u-s-capitol/And it does not matter one whit if some of them were deists or not they still believed in God. I understand the US constitution to be a godless one. It was the first experiment in a separation of church and government. Authority in the US government comes from “We the people ….” not a god. Many of the founding fathers were Christians, but most of them saw the harm in Europe when the two authorities were combined, as in England. Not everyone agreed with that plan and their positions are well documented. One problem early on was; each state had their own official church. Getting them to agree on which state church should be the federal church & the right one for the country would have been nearly impossible for any union. Same thing now, if you wanted one federal religion / theocracy, which one do you pick? If what you quoted is true, an argument against it would be that; things were not always done in a consistent manner with the constitution in the early days. Mistakes were made. Jefferson was a slave owner and so his words “all men are created equal … “was written in word, but not in deed. Priest have been raping children in churches for a very long time but that’s not the reason for a church. I’m part way thru this book, and highly recommend it on this subject; The Founding Myth - Why Christian Nationalism is un-American by Andrew Seidel. www.amazon.com/Founding-Myth-Christian-Nationalism-American/dp/1454933275/ref=nodl_You can search YouTube for interviews about the book.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 16:10:15 GMT -5
There are several contradictions with the separation of church and state and how they actually put things in motion. Such as having church services in the capitol building by both jefferson and madison and up to the time of the civil war. wallbuilders.com/church-u-s-capitol/And it does not matter one whit if some of them were deists or not they still believed in God. I understand the US constitution to be a godless one. It was the first experiment in a separation of church and government. Authority in the US government comes from “We the people ….” not a god. Many of the founding fathers were Christians, but most of them saw the harm in Europe when the two authorities were combined, as in England. Not everyone agreed with that plan and their positions are well documented. One problem early on was; each state had their own official church. Getting them to agree on which state church should be the federal church & the right one for the country would have been nearly impossible for any union. Same thing now, if you wanted one federal religion / theocracy, which one do you pick? If what you quoted is true, an argument against it would be that; things were not always done in a consistent manner with the constitution in the early days. Mistakes were made. Jefferson was a slave owner and so his words “all men are created equal … “was written in word, but not in deed. Priest have been raping children in churches for a very long time but that’s not the reason for a church. I’m part way thru this book, and highly recommend it on this subject; The Founding Myth - Why Christian Nationalism is un-American by Andrew Seidel. www.amazon.com/Founding-Myth-Christian-Nationalism-American/dp/1454933275/ref=nodl_You can search YouTube for interviews about the book. The constitution was built on the foundation of the declaration, the declaration mentions God four times. The constitution mentions him once in the format of dating the constitution. So he is not without reference... I doubt seriously that they did not know what they were doing in regards to God and state. Does anyone here want a theocracy? hell no...
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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2021 16:24:55 GMT -5
]The constitution was built on the foundation of the declaration, the declaration mentions God four times. The constitution mentions him once in the format of dating the constitution. So he is not without reference...
I doubt seriously that they did not know what they were doing in regards to God and state.
Does anyone here want a theocracy? hell no... The Declaration of Independence was July 4, 1776, and two years later (June 21, 1788) the Constitution became the official framework of the government of the United States of America. The Declaration of Independence used "god language" as this is what the powers that be in England understood. You could not separate the two, they had to declare their intentions to both. The Declaration of Independence renounced what they were going FROM ,while the Constitution said what they were going to. In the United States, the federal constitution does not make a reference to God as such, although it uses the formula "the year of our Lord" in Article VII. If you are interested I will send you the book free: The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American. Just send me a PM with a ship to address.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 16:36:08 GMT -5
]The constitution was built on the foundation of the declaration, the declaration mentions God four times. The constitution mentions him once in the format of dating the constitution. So he is not without reference...
I doubt seriously that they did not know what they were doing in regards to God and state.
Does anyone here want a theocracy? hell no... The Declaration of Independence was July 4, 1776, and two years later (June 21, 1788) the Constitution became the official framework of the government of the United States of America. The Declaration of Independence used "god language" as this is what the powers that be in England understood. You could not separate the two, they had to declare their intentions to both. The Declaration of Independence renounced what they were going FROM ,while the Constitution said what they were going to. In the United States, the federal constitution does not make a reference to God as such, although it uses the formula "the year of our Lord" in Article VII. If you are interested I will send you the book free: The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American. Just send me a PM with a ship to address. Ummm nowhere in the declaration does it state they were leaving God behind or even that they were exchanging God for secular belief. Thanks but No wallbuilders and other sites are guiding me in what our founders were like and what they were doing. And the history books I have read/have show no abandonment of God for secularism.
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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2021 17:03:16 GMT -5
The Declaration of Independence was July 4, 1776, and two years later (June 21, 1788) the Constitution became the official framework of the government of the United States of America. The Declaration of Independence used "god language" as this is what the powers that be in England understood. You could not separate the two, they had to declare their intentions to both. The Declaration of Independence renounced what they were going FROM ,while the Constitution said what they were going to. In the United States, the federal constitution does not make a reference to God as such, although it uses the formula "the year of our Lord" in Article VII. If you are interested I will send you the book free: The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American. Just send me a PM with a ship to address. Ummm nowhere in the declaration does it state they were leaving God behind or even that they were exchanging God for secular belief. Thanks but No wallbuilders and other sites are guiding me in what our founders were like and what they were doing. And the history books I have read/have show no abandonment of God for secularism. When I wrote they are "going from" I didn't mean "they were leaving god behind in their personal lives". They were leaving god out of the new government. That's why "god" is not in the US Constitution of America.They were " going from" church & state are one, and " going to" a new model of separating church and state "The Queen of England, is the 'Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church of England'. These titles date back to the reign of King Henry VIII, who was initially granted the title 'Defender of the Faith' in 1521 by Pope Leo X. AND
Opens & dissolves Parliament, and approving Bills before they become law."
The new idea in the USA was; People can have any god belief they want, and there can be no test of religon in government. Article Six of the United States Constitution " ... but no religious Test shall ever be Required as a Qualification To any Office or public Trust under the United States"
The US constitution gets its authority only from "We the People' alone, unlike England.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 20, 2021 18:05:32 GMT -5
The Declaration of Independence was July 4, 1776, and two years later (June 21, 1788) the Constitution became the official framework of the government of the United States of America. The Declaration of Independence used "god language" as this is what the powers that be in England understood. You could not separate the two, they had to declare their intentions to both. The Declaration of Independence renounced what they were going FROM ,while the Constitution said what they were going to. In the United States, the federal constitution does not make a reference to God as such, although it uses the formula "the year of our Lord" in Article VII. If you are interested I will send you the book free: The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American. Just send me a PM with a ship to address. Ummm nowhere in the declaration does it state they were leaving God behind or even that they were exchanging God for secular belief. Thanks but No wallbuilders and other sites are guiding me in what our founders were like and what they were doing. And the history books I have read/have show no abandonment of God for secularism. True. No place in the nowhere in the Declaration of Independence does it state they were leaving God behind or even that they were exchanging God for secular belief.
Because that was NOT their purpose.
Which "god" or which idea of a "god" or religion should they have upheld?
They were not far removed from there own history of what happened in Europe and fully aware of the horrors concerning what happened when a government mandated just one & only one particular "god' or religious belief.
As for WallBuilders, I have read a lot what David Barton statements and he is deceptive and way off track.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Barton_(author)
David Barton is an evangelical Christian political activist and author.
He is the founder of WallBuilders, LLC, a Texas-based organization that promotes pseudohistory about the religious basis of the United States.
Barton has been described as a Christian nationalist; his work is devoted to advancing the idea that the United States was founded as an explicitly Christian nation and rejecting the consensus view that the United States Constitution calls for separation of church and state.
Scholars of history and law have described his research as highly flawed, "pseudoscholarship" and spreading "outright falsehoods"
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 20, 2021 19:26:18 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 19:49:06 GMT -5
Ummm nowhere in the declaration does it state they were leaving God behind or even that they were exchanging God for secular belief. Thanks but No wallbuilders and other sites are guiding me in what our founders were like and what they were doing. And the history books I have read/have show no abandonment of God for secularism. True. No place in the nowhere in the Declaration of Independence does it state they were leaving God behind or even that they were exchanging God for secular belief.
Because that was NOT their purpose.
Which "god" or which idea of a "god" or religion should they have upheld?
They were not far removed from there own history of what happened in Europe and fully aware of the horrors concerning what happened when a government mandated just one & only one particular "god' or religious belief.
As for WallBuilders, I have read a lot what David Barton statements and he is deceptive and way off track.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Barton_(author)
David Barton is an evangelical Christian political activist and author.
He is the founder of WallBuilders, LLC, a Texas-based organization that promotes pseudohistory about the religious basis of the United States.
Barton has been described as a Christian nationalist; his work is devoted to advancing the idea that the United States was founded as an explicitly Christian nation and rejecting the consensus view that the United States Constitution calls for separation of church and state.
Scholars of history and law have described his research as highly flawed, "pseudoscholarship" and spreading "outright falsehoods"
The Christian God of course that was what most of them believed in and was the prevalent Belief in America at the time. Everyone has their detractors and wiki is mixed for fact checking at best.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 19:51:51 GMT -5
Ummm nowhere in the declaration does it state they were leaving God behind or even that they were exchanging God for secular belief. Thanks but No wallbuilders and other sites are guiding me in what our founders were like and what they were doing. And the history books I have read/have show no abandonment of God for secularism. They were " going from" church & state are one, and " going to" a new model of separating church and state
That is not very accurate in my estimation.
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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2021 20:07:33 GMT -5
They were " going from" church & state are one, and " going to" a new model of separating church and state That is not very accurate in my estimation. Where do you find an error?
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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2021 20:14:12 GMT -5
The Christian God of course that was what most of them believed in and was the prevalent Belief in America at the time. I read most were Deist like Jefferson, but lets say they were all fundamental Christians, it doesn't change the fact they did not mix religion with the US Constitution. The USA is a nation founded on; Freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 20:17:21 GMT -5
That is not very accurate in my estimation. Where do you find an error? In neither the declaration or the constitution do they make that claim "going from to going to".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 20:25:29 GMT -5
The Christian God of course that was what most of them believed in and was the prevalent Belief in America at the time. I read most were Deist like Jefferson, but lets say they were all fundamental Christians, it doesn't change the fact they did not mix religion with the US Constitution. The USA is a nation founded on; Freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. That is not accurate either. And when they had a chance to write it down they said Freedom OF religion. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2021 20:30:54 GMT -5
Where do you find an error? In neither the declaration or the constitution do they make that claim "going from to going to".That's true, the phrase "going from to going to" is not in either document. Those are my words to describe the change. Perhaps I would have been better understood if I said something like: " They moved away from English government model to a new and different model".
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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2021 20:39:01 GMT -5
I read most were Deist like Jefferson, but lets say they were all fundamental Christians, it doesn't change the fact they did not mix religion with the US Constitution. The USA is a nation founded on; Freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. That is not accurate either. And when they had a chance to write it down they said Freedom OF religion. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says that everyone in the United States has the right to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." -- First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution Some copy and paste confirmations of the separation of chuch and state.
----------------------------------------------- In 1971, the Supreme Court decided Lemon v. Kurtzman The Lemon test says that in order to be constitutional, a policy must:
- Have a non-religious purpose; - Not end up promoting or favoring any set of religious beliefs; and - Not overly involve the government with religion
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IS IT CONSTITUTIONAL TO TEACH RELIGION IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS? No. The public schools are run by the government. Therefore, they must obey the First Amendment. This means that while they can teach about the influences of religion in history, literature, and philosophy -- they can't promote religious beliefs or practices as part of the curriculum. Since private and parochial schools aren't run by the government, the First Amendment doesn't apply to them.
Also, students can be excused from some school activities if they conflict with their religious beliefs.
-------------------------------------------------------------- CAN MY TEACHER START THE DAY OR A MEETING WITH PRAYER? No. Prayers, scriptural readings, and loudspeaker devotionals violate the First Amendment because they promote religion
---------------------------------------------------------
CAN MY SCHOOL HAVE PRAYERS AT GRADUATION? No. In 1992, the Supreme Court decided in Lee v. Weisman that graduation prayers are unconstitutional in public schools.
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Post by xna on Nov 20, 2021 20:51:46 GMT -5
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John AdamsJefferson and Adams were known as the Feuding founders. There were people back then as now, who wanted American to be a Christian nation, but it did not form that way.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 20, 2021 21:07:14 GMT -5
True. No place in the nowhere in the Declaration of Independence does it state they were leaving God behind or even that they were exchanging God for secular belief.
Because that was NOT their purpose.
Which "god" or which idea of a "god" or religion should they have upheld?
They were not far removed from there own history of what happened in Europe and fully aware of the horrors concerning what happened when a government mandated just one & only one particular "god' or religious belief.
As for WallBuilders, I have read a lot what David Barton statements and he is deceptive and way off track.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Barton_(author)
David Barton is an evangelical Christian political activist and author.
He is the founder of WallBuilders, LLC, a Texas-based organization that promotes pseudohistory about the religious basis of the United States.
Barton has been described as a Christian nationalist; his work is devoted to advancing the idea that the United States was founded as an explicitly Christian nation and rejecting the consensus view that the United States Constitution calls for separation of church and state.
Scholars of history and law have described his research as highly flawed, "pseudoscholarship" and spreading "outright falsehoods"
The Christian God of course that was what most of them believed in and was the prevalent Belief in America at the time. Everyone has their detractors and wiki is mixed for fact checking at best. WIKI asks for people to make corrections to their information.
So people should let THEM know if anyone thinks they are in error.
BTW, I have often wondered how many people still professing believes WIKI is accurate concerning the history of 2x2's. (the TRUTH or THE WAY, as we called it)
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 20, 2021 21:18:07 GMT -5
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John AdamsJefferson and Adams were known as the Feuding founders. There were people back then as now, who wanted American to be a Christian nation, but it did not form that way. THANK GOD!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 20, 2021 22:56:36 GMT -5
I read most were Deist like Jefferson, but lets say they were all fundamental Christians, it doesn't change the fact they did not mix religion with the US Constitution. The USA is a nation founded on; Freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. That is not accurate either. And when they had a chance to write it down they said Freedom OF religion. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams That coumts you out them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 22:58:28 GMT -5
That is not accurate either. And when they had a chance to write it down they said Freedom OF religion. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams That coumts you out them. Said the commytroll...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2021 0:05:37 GMT -5
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Post by Dan on Nov 21, 2021 0:46:04 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Nov 21, 2021 9:26:27 GMT -5
Countries where there is NO FREEDOM FROM RELIGON.
They would welcome a person who thinks like them, but just don't try to bring Jesus with you. Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania,
Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia,
Libya, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen.
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Post by matisse on Nov 21, 2021 9:43:37 GMT -5
SHOUTING SOMETHING OUT OF A BIG SQUARE doesn't make it true.
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