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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 28, 2013 19:16:52 GMT -5
This is for Jesse and any other person that said that they felt that some of the survivors were just using the Survior Abuse Stories to bash the 2x2 fellowship rather than talk about CSA.
Now that the Survivor Stories are available to be viewed on the BTS site, I would like for Jesse and any other person that felt the same, that some of the survivors were just bashing the fellowship, to please identify which stories that they felt were doing such.
It must be a big deal- enough of a deal to remove the stories from Wings where the victims had originally thought that their stories would be- not on some Proboards site.
So, Jesse, Scott, and others that made that decision for the move based on that criteria- which victims are just bashing? They have been victimized all over again as this was the reason given for the move- so which are the abuse survivors that are just bashers?
Note- I don't want you to actually tell me who you think the bashers are- but the fact that that was given as the reason makes EVERYONE ON THE LIST ASK- WAS IT ME? WAS IT MY STORY?
[ ]JEAN'S STORY [ ]Anon 1 - 1997 [ ]Anon 2 - 2008 [ ]Anon 3 [ ]Bob 1 [ ]Bob 2 [ ]Carly [ ]Charles Mattison Experiences [ ]Dale Gardner letters 2008 [ ]Kent - Long Story [ ]Dale R [ ]Kent - Brief Story [ ]Leigh [ ]Lindy [ ]Mike [ ]Nichole [ ]Robert [ ]Scott [ ]Sheri [ ]Victoria [ ]William
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Post by emy on Jun 28, 2013 22:32:33 GMT -5
I read one since this discussion started that I don't see on the list. It had almost nothing to do with CSA, but I didn't see it as a bashing letter, but just an account of her journey.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 28, 2013 22:43:19 GMT -5
I read one since this discussion started that I don't see on the list. It had almost nothing to do with CSA, but I didn't see it as a bashing letter, but just an account of her journey. Thanks, Emy. That is a great response- "not a bashing letter, but just an account of her journey". That is a very healthy way of looking at it. The fellowship is far from perfect made up of far from perfect people like me, so it is silly for some friends and workers to get so upset at truthful accounts. We are only going to grow as a fellowship if we start acknowledging past mistakes, repent of those mistakes, and atone for those mistakes.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2013 23:04:16 GMT -5
This is for Jesse and any other person that said that they felt that some of the survivors were just using the Survior Abuse Stories to bash the 2x2 fellowship rather than talk about CSA. Now that the Survivor Stories are available to be viewed on the BTS site, I would like for Jesse and any other person that felt the same, that some of the survivors were just bashing the fellowship, to please identify which stories that they felt were doing such. It must be a big deal- enough of a deal to remove the stories from Wings where the victims had originally thought that their stories would be- not on some Proboards site. So, Jesse, Scott, and others that made that decision for the move based on that criteria- which victims are just bashing? They have been victimized all over again as this was the reason given for the move- so which are the abuse survivors that are just bashers? Note- I don't want you to actually tell me who you think the bashers are- but the fact that that was given as the reason makes EVERYONE ON THE LIST ASK- WAS IT ME? WAS IT MY STORY?[ ]JEAN'S STORY [ ]Anon 1 - 1997 [ ]Anon 2 - 2008 [ ]Anon 3 [ ]Bob 1 [ ]Bob 2 [ ]Carly [ ]Charles Mattison Experiences [ ]Dale Gardner letters 2008 [ ]Kent - Long Story [ ]Dale R [ ]Kent - Brief Story [ ]Leigh [ ]Lindy [ ]Mike [ ]Nichole [ ]Robert [ ]Scott [ ]Sheri [ ]Victoria [ ]William So what if they do bash the 2x2 though? Wouldn't you if you had been abused by a worker? I know I would. It takes a long time and a lot of work to get past that. And you might never get past it.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 28, 2013 23:10:41 GMT -5
So what if they do bash the 2x2 though? Wouldn't you if you had been abused by a worker? I know I would. It takes a long time and a lot of work to get past that. And you might never get past it. Exactly. It reminds me of the scene from Forrest Gump, where Jenny, as an adult, walked by her abandoned childhood home where her father had abused her. She picked up a rock and threw it through a window of the dilapidated old house. And then she picked up and threw another one, and then another, and another, until she fell down onto the ground sobbing. Forrest's character, the narrator, then said, "Sometimes I guess there just aren't enough rocks."
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Post by emy on Jun 28, 2013 23:22:07 GMT -5
So what if they do bash the 2x2 though? Wouldn't you if you had been abused by a worker? I know I would. It takes a long time and a lot of work to get past that. And you might never get past it. I'm not sure it's a good idea to expand the fury to a group rather than to the individual. Of course it's done all the time and not just this fellowship. The difference is if the supporting group knew of the abuse and did nothing, which is far too often the case, too.
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Post by ts on Jun 28, 2013 23:25:03 GMT -5
In the reasons stated, it seems there was a statement made that the stories were only talking about the dysfunction of the 2x2s and not CSA within the ministry.
I don't know if this has already been addressed, but it begs the question:
Is it possible for CSA to happen in an environment that is not somehow dysfunctional?
What do you think any story of CSA would look like without the whole context? Would you suggest something like this:
"I really love the 2x2 fellowship I grew up in and really do appreciate all the rules that kept me safe and in the fold. I love all the Workers and know that they are servants of God. I really appreciate particularly this one worker and all that he had to say in Meeting. He was a very Godly man and there are countless people who really think a lot of him. Especially the leadership of the one and only true ministry. However, there was this period of about eight years he secretly molested me from time to time. Other than those times he was actually molesting me, he was a Godly man. I know even Workers are human so I do not hold that against him. I appreciate his leadership and credit him for all the good that he has done and the unity of the Spirit that is so evident in his teaching. He is really a driving force in keeping this family of God in peace and harmony. I wish that all the false and dysfunctional churches out there could experience just how functional the true family of God is. I am thankful to know the truth and just want to do my part in living truth before others and that is my desire."
Do you think that that testimony of CSA would pass muster with the Workers?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 28, 2013 23:33:57 GMT -5
In the reasons stated, it seems there was a statement made that the stories were only talking about the dysfunction of the 2x2s and not CSA within the ministry. I don't know if this has already been addressed, but it begs the question: Is it possible for CSA to happen in an environment that is not somehow dysfunctional? What do you think any story of CSA would look like without the whole context? Would you suggest something like this: "I really love the 2x2 fellowship I grew up in and really do appreciate all the rules that kept me safe and in the fold. I love all the Workers and know that they are servants of God. I really appreciate particularly this one worker and all that he had to say in Meeting. He was a very Godly man and there are countless people who really think a lot of him. Especially the leadership of the one and only true ministry. However, there was this period of about eight years he secretly molested me from time to time. Other than those times he was actually molesting me, he was a Godly man. I know even Workers are human so I do not hold that against him. I appreciate his leadership and credit him for all the good that he has done and the unity of the Spirit that is so evident in his teaching. He is really a driving force in keeping this family of God in peace and harmony. I wish that all the false and dysfunctional churches out there could experience just how functional the true family of God is. I am thankful to know the truth and just want to do my part in living truth before others and that is my desire." Do you think that that testimony of CSA would pass muster with the Workers? No -- it wouldn't pass muster. That is normally how the CSA complaint begins, but because the victim knows perfectly well that this statement is taboo he/she usually ends up waiting until everything else there is no hope of either justice or comfort.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 28, 2013 23:34:42 GMT -5
So what if they do bash the 2x2 though? Wouldn't you if you had been abused by a worker? I know I would. It takes a long time and a lot of work to get past that. And you might never get past it. I'm not sure it's a good idea to expand the fury to a group rather than to the individual. Of course it's done all the time and not just this fellowship. The difference is if the supporting group knew of the abuse and did nothing, which is far too often the case, too. The victim isn't playing judge and jury. It's a deep, emotional visceral reaction. If a minister or key trusted figure in the religion commits the abuse and even if the rest are wonderful people, the victim could well hate the religion and everyone it it, for life ... and who could blame them.
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Post by emy on Jun 28, 2013 23:50:24 GMT -5
In the reasons stated, it seems there was a statement made that the stories were only talking about the dysfunction of the 2x2s and not CSA within the ministry. I don't know if this has already been addressed, but it begs the question: Is it possible for CSA to happen in an environment that is not somehow dysfunctional? What do you think any story of CSA would look like without the whole context? Would you suggest something like this: "I really love the 2x2 fellowship I grew up in and really do appreciate all the rules that kept me safe and in the fold. I love all the Workers and know that they are servants of God. I really appreciate particularly this one worker and all that he had to say in Meeting. He was a very Godly man and there are countless people who really think a lot of him. Especially the leadership of the one and only true ministry. However, there was this period of about eight years he secretly molested me from time to time. Other than those times he was actually molesting me, he was a Godly man. I know even Workers are human so I do not hold that against him. I appreciate his leadership and credit him for all the good that he has done and the unity of the Spirit that is so evident in his teaching. He is really a driving force in keeping this family of God in peace and harmony. I wish that all the false and dysfunctional churches out there could experience just how functional the true family of God is. I am thankful to know the truth and just want to do my part in living truth before others and that is my desire." Do you think that that testimony of CSA would pass muster with the Workers? Don't be obtuse. ...it seems there was a statement made that the stories were only talking about the dysfunction of the 2x2s and not CSA within the ministry.I did not read such a statement. I did read that victims were describing dysfunctional families (and bashing an entire fellowship) rather than focusing on the abuse they experienced or the person who did it. Do you think that that testimony of CSA would pass muster with the Workers?Not worth an answer... but no, I do not.
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Post by ts on Jun 29, 2013 0:25:58 GMT -5
In the reasons stated, it seems there was a statement made that the stories were only talking about the dysfunction of the 2x2s and not CSA within the ministry. I don't know if this has already been addressed, but it begs the question: Is it possible for CSA to happen in an environment that is not somehow dysfunctional? What do you think any story of CSA would look like without the whole context? Would you suggest something like this: "I really love the 2x2 fellowship I grew up in and really do appreciate all the rules that kept me safe and in the fold. I love all the Workers and know that they are servants of God. I really appreciate particularly this one worker and all that he had to say in Meeting. He was a very Godly man and there are countless people who really think a lot of him. Especially the leadership of the one and only true ministry. However, there was this period of about eight years he secretly molested me from time to time. Other than those times he was actually molesting me, he was a Godly man. I know even Workers are human so I do not hold that against him. I appreciate his leadership and credit him for all the good that he has done and the unity of the Spirit that is so evident in his teaching. He is really a driving force in keeping this family of God in peace and harmony. I wish that all the false and dysfunctional churches out there could experience just how functional the true family of God is. I am thankful to know the truth and just want to do my part in living truth before others and that is my desire." Do you think that that testimony of CSA would pass muster with the Workers? Don't be obtuse. ...it seems there was a statement made that the stories were only talking about the dysfunction of the 2x2s and not CSA within the ministry.I did not read such a statement. I did read that victims were describing dysfunctional families (and bashing an entire fellowship) rather than focusing on the abuse they experienced or the person who did it. Do you think that that testimony of CSA would pass muster with the Workers?Not worth an answer... but no, I do not. Emy, the 2x2 fellowship IS a family, by the description of the Workers. Statements like "We are not so much a religion/denomination as we are a FAMILY" are common Worker responses to "outsiders" who inquire about the group. A common prayer is that people would be brought into the "fold and family". And, yes, there are families within the "Family of God" that comprise the 2x2 fellowship. There are many ways a family can become dysfunctional. One such way is having a fanatical belief that they are in the only true religion and that all the rest of the world(with few if any exceptions) is lost and needs what they have. The 2x2 "Family of God", of course, would not exist if this were not a core belief. For this reason, the 2x2 "Family of God" is dysfunctional and, in that dysfunction, there arises such abuses as CSA. That is the context that many victim testimonies bear witness to. They are not bashers. They are simply bearing witness and giving the context of their abuse. Now, concerning the families WITHIN the 2x2 "Family of God" - Just an observation here - The stronger and more fanatical the belief within each individual family that they are in the "only truth and way" and the Workers are "God's only true Servants", the more dysfunctional the family. The less exclusive they are, the less likely to be dysfunctional. Like I said, there are many reasons a family can be dysfunctional. The exclusive belief is a dysfunctional one. Especially taken to the extremes the Workers like and live. The Work is dysfunctional because they are living a lie. Hundreds of Workers are living without marriage so they can continue in the ministry and they area having zipper troubles as a result. They call "dating" and "falling in love" as a Worker a problem when it is absolutely normal and right. I have had more than one companion go to a psychiatrist or take medication due to falling in love with a sister worker. I have a sister in law who was in the Work and she and a brother worker fell in love and told the overseers that they wanted to leave the work and get married. She was moved to another country and he was told to break off the relationship which he dutifully did. These are not isolated incidents. These happened in different parts of the 2x2 world and it is a perfect dysfunctional expression of a dysfunctional doctrine. CSA is another such expression. So is womanizing...or manizing for that matter. The sexual suppression of the Work is another way to create a dysfunctional atmosphere. Does it always appear to be dysfunctional? No. Not to everyone, at least. Especially if you are actually in the Work or professing. I just know that when I was in the Work and telling "strangers" about the ministry that I was doing, I would get to that part about the Workers not being married and you could see the red flags going up in their minds and body language. Many would inquire about the non marriage aspect to which we would give our programed responses. I am sure that many people were seeing the dysfunction of the group and knew it was fruitless to say so....so they just went on their way. And these were the people we "dusted our feet off" towards.
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Post by jondough on Jun 29, 2013 9:36:32 GMT -5
I have said this before. There needs to be a clear-cut "Mission statement" assembled. The below is what there is now, and its close. I think it needs to be reviewed by management, revised, updated, and improved. Once that is accomplished, it will be much easier to back up and insure that every decision is made with the mission in mind. Will it help or hurt them in attaining their mission.
here is what the opening page states;
Working to INform Guide and Support Those Who Have Been Abused Within the Fellowship of Friends and Workers
Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA and to support victims of CSA. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the fellowship in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs through CSA, especially when its impact is trivialized or ignored.
So then....despite the fact that the Mission above is not totally clear and un-focused, how did the decision of moving the stories help in accomplishing the above.
This is what needs to be answered.
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Post by jondough on Jun 29, 2013 9:42:29 GMT -5
Now if I'm management, I'm going to ask myself....
Am i helping support the victims by moving the stories?
Does it help support the victims by having others discuss their stories on a discussion board?
Does it help encourage change within the fellowship?
Does it help provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA?
Some effort was made to make these changes. Was it to accomplish the above?
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Post by emy on Jun 29, 2013 11:52:44 GMT -5
Now if I'm management, I'm going to ask myself.... Am i helping support the victims by moving the stories? Does it help support the victims by having others discuss their stories on a discussion board? Does it help encourage change within the fellowship? Does it help provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA? Some effort was made to make these changes. Was it to accomplish the above? You forgot.. Will it help WINGS reach more victims?
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Post by emy on Jun 29, 2013 11:56:19 GMT -5
TS, I think you will have an uphill battle trying to prove there are more dysfunctional families in the exclusive fellowship than in the non-exclusive people in general.
As far as whether the Family of God is dysfunctional - well, I will leave that up to Him to decide and how He will deal with it. There is no one more qualified, certainly not us mere humans.
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Post by jondough on Jun 29, 2013 12:06:51 GMT -5
Now if I'm management, I'm going to ask myself.... Am i helping support the victims by moving the stories? Does it help support the victims by having others discuss their stories on a discussion board? Does it help encourage change within the fellowship? Does it help provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA? Some effort was made to make these changes. Was it to accomplish the above? You forgot.. Will it help WINGS reach more victims? I did not read that in their objective/Mission statement....So you're missing the point. Maybe I'm not being clear enough...... State your "Mission" then use that mission to determine if the decisions you are making are going to help or hinder you in attaining that mission (didn't I say this already)?
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Post by faune on Jun 29, 2013 12:16:15 GMT -5
TS shared...
I believe TS brought up some logical points highlighted above. It should be noted that some of workers who were raised in these overly strict home settings and became workers, like Ira Hobbs, for instance, became long term abusers within the fellowship, although they never got punished for their crimes due to the Statute of Limitations and parents failing to report crimes to their children for fear of ostracism by the fellowship. It's such cover-up responses as this within the fellowship over the years that really sickens me to the core of my being. The fact that the friends refused to see or acknowledge the criminal behavior of these workers and report them to proper authorities is perhaps part of the brainwashing experienced by many who feared the shunning and excommunication by the leadership? People's fear of reporting the offenders seemed mixed with their programming of upholding the image of the 2x2 fellowship by keeping the truth of such horrific deeds under wraps for years? Personally, I'm glad their cover has been blown and perhaps now people will start exercising their conscience more when these things transpire within their vicinity? People who commit such crimes are really sick individuals and should be regarded as such where children are concerned, IMHO?
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Post by emy on Jun 29, 2013 12:18:03 GMT -5
State your "Mission" then use that mission to determine if the decisions you are making are going to help or hinder you in attaining that mission (didn't I say this already)? "Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA..." Hard to do if victims are reluctant to visit a site.
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Post by jondough on Jun 29, 2013 12:23:30 GMT -5
State your "Mission" then use that mission to determine if the decisions you are making are going to help or hinder you in attaining that mission (didn't I say this already)? "Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA..." Hard to do if victims are reluctant to visit a site. Are Victims reluctant to visit Wings? From what i"ve read, and Scott has explained, the stories are one click on the Wings site to where they are now. So if its just as easy now to get to them as before, then what was accomplished - other than the fact that others can now discuss your stories? or are you saying that Scott is wrong, and they are not as assessable anymore?
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 29, 2013 12:31:41 GMT -5
TS shared...
I believe TS brought up some logical points highlighted above. It should be noted that some of workers who were raised in these overly strict home settings and became workers, like Ira Hobbs, for instance, became long term abusers within the fellowship, although they never got punished for their crimes due to the Statute of Limitations and parents failing to report crimes to their children for fear of ostracism by the fellowship. It's such cover-up responses as this within the fellowship over the years that really sickens me to the core of my being. The fact that the friends refused to see or acknowledge the criminal behavior of these workers and report them to proper authorities is perhaps part of the brainwashing experienced by many who feared the shunning and excommunication by the leadership? People's fear of reporting the offenders seemed mixed with their programming of upholding the image of the 2x2 fellowship by keeping the truth of such horrific deeds under wraps for years? Personally, I'm glad their cover has been blown and perhaps now people will start exercising their conscience more when these things transpire within their vicinity? People who commit such crimes are really sick individuals and should be regarded as such where children are concerned, IMHO?
Exactly. I was raised in such an environment. And I went into the work with the same thoughts. And the most dangerous teaching it this- to question a worker is like questioning God. Dale Schultz reinforced this thought in his infamous letter to the friends after the Alberta excommunications. It grooms the 2x2s to fear the workers. The workers reinforce this notion with teaching that God killed those that murmured against Moses and Aaron. Or the story about the bear that ate the children that mocked Elijah. Any workers that preaches such are jackasses and should be removed from the work immediately. The abuse survivors should be encouraged to see that the workers are no more special than the septic tank cleaner guy, and a least the septic tank guy helps clean crap up instead of just creating it.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 29, 2013 12:34:19 GMT -5
Everything is exactly the same. The BTS board existed before to allow discussion. The only thing that is different is that the stories were moved from a content based website to the BTS Pro boards site. Weird.
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Post by rational on Jun 29, 2013 13:44:53 GMT -5
Note- I don't want you to actually tell me who you think the bashers are- What did you want the readers to do?
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 30, 2013 9:42:33 GMT -5
Note- I don't want you to actually tell me who you think the bashers are- What did you want the readers to do? Think.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 30, 2013 10:59:35 GMT -5
State your "Mission" then use that mission to determine if the decisions you are making are going to help or hinder you in attaining that mission (didn't I say this already)? "Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA..." Hard to do if victims are reluctant to visit a site. Why would they be reluctant to visit the site? (I know, you are just using the reason that Scott seemed to imply.) Because the dastardly victims refuse to water down their abuse story to make the friends and workers look good? Darn those abuse survivors! Oh, I know, we'll move them off the site so that the friends and workers won't have to look at them and feel bad at what they did to them.
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Post by rational on Jun 30, 2013 12:40:10 GMT -5
Excellent idea! I have been thinking about the difference between a well designed web site, hosted by a commercial site that delivers a limited number of templates that can be modified and a well designed message board hosted by a commercial site that delivers a limited number of templates that can be modified. Why would one be termed "trashy" and the other "authoritative"? I was also wondering about the stories and how the root of the problems could be determined. How would anyone know whether the F&W religion was the cause or simply the denomination/sect to which the people belonged.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 30, 2013 12:50:32 GMT -5
Excellent idea! I have been thinking about the difference between a well designed web site, hosted by a commercial site that delivers a limited number of templates that can be modified and a well designed message board hosted by a commercial site that delivers a limited number of templates that can be modified. Why would one be termed "trashy" and the other "authoritative"? I was also wondering about the stories and how the root of the problems could be determined. How would anyone know whether the F&W religion was the cause or simply the denomination/sect to which the people belonged. The issue is about censorship, a secondary issue, created by the censorship issue, is the laughable notion that a Proboard site has the same cache as a content based website. The issue is why the friends and workers are being given greater consideration than the past victims- most of whom are probably exe's (gee, I wonder why)? But, if you are really serious about discussing the pros and cons of Proboards versus a content based website, please start a thread, as that is a secondary issue. The real issue is, why were the victim's stories removed from the original Wingsfortruth.info site? Based on Scott's statement above- it is about making professing folks feel comfortable to come to Wings so as not to be subjected to those nasty ex's just trying to talk down their fellowship. Your second question also deserves its own thread: "How would anyone know whether the F&W religion was the cause or simply the denomination/sect to which the people belonged." Do you want to create a thread to discuss that topic?
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Post by rational on Jun 30, 2013 13:27:20 GMT -5
The issue is about censorship, a secondary issue, created by the censorship issue, is the laughable notion that a Proboard site has the same cache as a content based website. You have yet to explain the difference between two sites that display content. This is like the workers complaining when a paperback publication of the KJV is brought to meeting. Are you looking for form over function? Can you provide a good example of this? Youhave been dwelling on it and continuing to use the word 'trashy'.Why do you see this as an issue? Some of the stories clearly had little to do with abuse as a result of being a member in the F&W. If you are dealing with abuse caused by the F&W fellowship that is what the stories should be about. I do not know how the decision was reached but having read there were stories that were about family dysfunction that had little to do with the F&W other than membership. No. But you can think about the point of moving the stories that were not about the stated purpose of the WINGS site.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 30, 2013 13:38:10 GMT -5
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