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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 3:48:53 GMT -5
Findingtruth, I agree that the social aspect of 2x2ism is a prime retaining factor. But the ingrained and indoctrinated mindset that 2x2ism with all its failures, is still basically "Gods way" --- "but just gone a little bit awry" is also quite common as motivation to stay, along with the idea that it still can and will be 'fixed' -- This illusionary mindset is especially a factor amongst the 'born and raised'. I know that this was a foundation belief that I was influenced by for a number of years -- even after we were rejected.
The realization that 2x2 principles aren't at all particularly unique, the doctrine isn't at all particularly scripturally correct and the people (including 'workers') aren't at all especially right, or uniquely good or spiritual in any way, came to me only after a number of years of outside perspective -- As Paul implied "scales don't fall of our eyes easily". My wife that wasn't born and raised in this self centered organizational illusion, understood this long, long before I did. (or long before I was willing to admit!!)
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Jul 8, 2014 10:04:49 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 8, 2014 10:04:49 GMT -5
Thank you, Edgar. Appreciate what you've done at that site.
Reminds me so much of what was observed, experienced in 1970 and after in Sweden, and how hotly denied any truthful reports brought. They say time wounds all heels.... Sure proves true to me for those idealistically walking in the shoes of devout 2&2ism. And only growing worse so far as I can perceive. "They've" said I was just "unwilling" to fit in, and much much worse, in every instance led by one or more of the power driven "idolized workers." I remember telling Ylva what was bound to happen, and it has.
It brings much sorrow to have been correct, as my love was for people, not place and power, and to now see so many facing the same sorrows and grief make it nearly impossible to remember anything joyful about 2&2ism. Oh, I know what some will express even in this forum as they seek to protect "their kingdom." Thankfully for many though now, that reign is ending as awareness grows world wide of dishonesty and deception. I remember what all you have endured, Edgar. Once I too would never have believed it either possible or would ever happen.
Now over 50,000 views of this thread reveal what has been really going on for decades! Thanks to Edgar M. and Dennis both for sharing what simply had to have been the worst of human depravity of decency from some humans to another! Dennis speaking of his sorrow that his forecasting of what was coming down the pike for the 2x2 religion someday and living to see it begin to happen was exactly what I experience a bit over a week ago at a relative's funeral. My relative that still professes made sure the workers were there by playing the "devout professee" and pushing her will over the immediate family's desires. Nevertheless, as I greeted the sister workers who were there, the elder of the two is one of the sweetest and kindest ladies I know of within the 2x2 religion...but I suffered far more grief at her position within that religion then I did for the relative that had died! And I'm not kidding at that. After exchanging hearty hugs with the 2 sisters and stepping backa nd looking at the elder one's face and her kind regard, my heart was filled with great sorrow...it was a good thing we were at a funeral or people might have thought I'd lost it with tears coursing down my face...but I can say the tears were for this wonderful kind sister worker and knowing what she is still caught up in. I felt more sorrow for her then I've felt for my professing relative and perhaps that is because my professing relative refuses to listen to facts about what's going on and has gone on in the 2x2 religion for nearly the whole inception of it. They are so proud that they're the only one still professing and that they've been entrusted with so much. I want to tell them they have no idea at how much they really have been entrusted with and that they really need to get a better idea of what they think they're out to preserve!
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Jul 8, 2014 12:39:00 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jul 8, 2014 12:39:00 GMT -5
Uncle Châu asked me not to mention or talk about things happened and are happening to him. To respect his asking, I won’t mention about him any more… so that he is not in awkward situation. But some vietnamese friends abroad want me to continue posting things happening in VN so that they can know. In fact uncle Châu is the main character, almost everything in VN is concerning to him, so it may be hard to understand clearly the real situation. I will continue to post the things in VN although uncle Châu isn’t mentioned. I just received a phone call lasting more than one hour, from the people in whose house we just gathered last week They retold the visit of 2 Canadian workers, 1 local worker accompanied by 3 elders…Now it is too late here, I hope tomorrow I will have time to report the visit for you to know.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 5:04:00 GMT -5
Uncle Châu asked me not to mention or talk about things happened and are happening to him. To respect his asking, I won’t mention about him any more… so that he is not in awkward situation. But some vietnamese friends abroad want me to continue posting things happening in VN so that they can know. In fact uncle Châu is the main character, almost everything in VN is concerning to him, so it may be hard to understand clearly the real situation. I will continue to post the things in VN although uncle Châu isn’t mentioned. I just received a phone call lasting more than one hour, from the people in whose house we just gathered last week They retold the visit of 2 Canadian workers, 1 local worker accompanied by 3 elders…Now it is too late here, I hope tomorrow I will have time to report the visit for you to know. To me this request of Chau is one of the sadest things I have read in a long, long time, and another reminder of the enormous trust of darkness that saturates 2x2ism -- Again it is a bitter reminder of the utter hopelessnes of any kind of positive Godly development in the group in the near future. This recuring fear of the truth coming out, and the evident group terror of reality being brought into focus, or of light being directed on simple day to day events tells a major story in itself about the ugly condition of things in the group. I find it a complete shame to the beautiful Christian spirit to note that 2x2ism regards darkness as the solution to irregularities and unsoundness in group policy. Edgar John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 9, 2014 9:05:02 GMT -5
Am I understanding correctly that this visit by workers and elders took place soon after your visit?
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Jul 9, 2014 11:05:49 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 9, 2014 11:05:49 GMT -5
Uncle Châu asked me not to mention or talk about things happened and are happening to him. To respect his asking, I won’t mention about him any more… so that he is not in awkward situation. But some vietnamese friends abroad want me to continue posting things happening in VN so that they can know. In fact uncle Châu is the main character, almost everything in VN is concerning to him, so it may be hard to understand clearly the real situation. I will continue to post the things in VN although uncle Châu isn’t mentioned. I just received a phone call lasting more than one hour, from the people in whose house we just gathered last week They retold the visit of 2 Canadian workers, 1 local worker accompanied by 3 elders…Now it is too late here, I hope tomorrow I will have time to report the visit for you to know. To me this request of Chau is one of the sadest things I have read in a long, long time, and another reminder of the enormous trust of darkness that saturates 2x2ism -- Again it is a bitter reminder of the utter hopelessnes of any kind of positive Godly development in the group in the near future. This recuring fear of the truth coming out, and the evident group terror of reality being brought into focus, or of light being directed on simple day to day events tells a major story in itself about the ugly condition of things in the group. I find it a complete shame to the beautiful Christian spirit to note that 2x2ism regards darkness as the solution to irregularities and unsoundness in group policy. Edgar John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. I would wonder whether this no speaking about Chau is his choice or if it is a demand from higher up the worker ladder? I suspect it may well be the higher worker! Also Chau knows he is still the head man listed with the VN government. Now are the workers doing their best to show the VN government that Chau is no longer in that position or no longer able for that position and that there are NONE in the work in VN that are able for the position and that the overseers of the religion have decided it is best to move Chau out permanently and to get the VN government to name one of them as "head of the 2x2 church in VN". Minthanh would that really work that way?
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Jul 9, 2014 20:12:57 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jul 9, 2014 20:12:57 GMT -5
To me this request of Chau is one of the sadest things I have read in a long, long time, and another reminder of the enormous trust of darkness that saturates 2x2ism -- Again it is a bitter reminder of the utter hopelessnes of any kind of positive Godly development in the group in the near future. This recuring fear of the truth coming out, and the evident group terror of reality being brought into focus, or of light being directed on simple day to day events tells a major story in itself about the ugly condition of things in the group. I find it a complete shame to the beautiful Christian spirit to note that 2x2ism regards darkness as the solution to irregularities and unsoundness in group policy. Edgar John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. I would wonder whether this no speaking about Chau is his choice or if it is a demand from higher up the worker ladder? I suspect it may well be the higher worker! Also Chau knows he is still the head man listed with the VN government. Now are the workers doing their best to show the VN government that Chau is no longer in that position or no longer able for that position and that there are NONE in the work in VN that are able for the position and that the overseers of the religion have decided it is best to move Chau out permanently and to get the VN government to name one of them as "head of the 2x2 church in VN". Minthanh would that really work that way? I am happy that you all can see the situation in VN as you were living in my country, maybe because you all passed the same experience as us. You thought completely right, Sharon.
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Jul 9, 2014 22:53:09 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jul 9, 2014 22:53:09 GMT -5
The elder is my uncle, his wife was my friend in the teenage. They are workers taking care of the rubber trees. They had very little schooling or good at speaking. My uncle is sincere and gentle, not offending anyone .They are simple and appreciate F&W. They don’t agree with these workers about many things but because the love for their brother’s family (the man sitting in the wheelchair) they continue the fellowship with 2x2 systems and accompany to visit with us although it’s hard for them to travel because they live in rubber tree plantation The group party of 2 Canadian workers, 1 native worker and 3 elders came visiting …all of them were rich, well learned both in the secular world and in religion. The couple (my uncle and his wife) was surprised to receive the party of general staft of 2x2ism. The couple only knew to pray God help them to be wise to say in the will of God, helful to people who hear…and ask God to have enough strength to tell their belief and their service of God. My aunt said she knew they (the party) had also prayed God before coming here …but she thanked God for every thing happened showing that God was with her, God put the words in their (the couple) mouth. God accepted her prayers. They (the party) asked the couple to give the choice and the couple chose the fellowship that they felt the love, the unity and had the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Immediately after that, Mr. Colin ( temporary overseer while Mr. Lyle was absent) said “we will change another elder…” The couple were feeling comfortable and satisfactory after the conversation. I will tell more details in the conversation that the couple shared with us
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Post by fixit on Jul 10, 2014 1:17:29 GMT -5
I don't understand why the foreign bullies are even allowed to stay in Vietnam.
Workers with a controlling spirit like to divide and rule. They're jealous and fearful of gatherings that they're not in control of.
If the Vietnamese government allows the foreigners to stay they'll continue to drive away good people, just as they've done in other countries.
It will result in a fellowship of system-followers rather than Christ-followers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 6:25:39 GMT -5
The elder is my uncle, his wife was my friend in the teenage. They are workers taking care of the rubber trees. They had very little schooling or good at speaking. My uncle is sincere and gentle, not offending anyone .They are simple and appreciate F&W. They don’t agree with these workers about many things but because the love for their brother’s family (the man sitting in the wheelchair) they continue the fellowship with 2x2 systems and accompany to visit with us although it’s hard for them to travel because they live in rubber tree plantation The group party of 2 Canadian workers, 1 native worker and 3 elders came visiting …all of them were rich, well learned both in the secular world and in religion. The couple (my uncle and his wife) was surprised to receive the party of general staft of 2x2ism. The couple only knew to pray God help them to be wise to say in the will of God, helful to people who hear…and ask God to have enough strength to tell their belief and their service of God. My aunt said she knew they (the party) had also prayed God before coming here …but she thanked God for every thing happened showing that God was with her, God put the words in their (the couple) mouth. God accepted her prayers. They (the party) asked the couple to give the choice and the couple chose the fellowship that they felt the love, the unity and had the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Immediately after that, Mr. Colin ( temporary overseer while Mr. Lyle was absent) said “we will change another elder…” The couple were feeling comfortable and satisfactory after the conversation. I will tell more details in the conversation that the couple shared with us I find it rather sickening that such enormous examples of power abuse and total collapse of basic Christian values by 2x2 leadership in Vietnam can continue unabated, as it obviously has -- and none of the rest of the 2x2 world react in the slightest. All reports I receive of 2x2 activity is 'business as usual' -- 'put your trust in the workers' at the same time as these horrible abuse examples continue and continue. Ignorance is no excuse this time. We have heard so much about 'things being better now' and 'changes have been made to hinder the recurance of previous episodes like the Alberta massexcommunications' -- This in Vietnam seems to be the same evil pattern but on a far greater scale!! 2x2ism has learned nothing from their previous blunders. Clearday -- what is your take? www.2x2vietnam.info/correspondence.aspTHIS IS AN ONGOING EXAMPLE OF NON-CONTESTABLE POWER ABUSE by 2x2 LEADERSHIP IN LARGE SCALE, and major trauma for many victims. --don't just smile sweetly and pretend it is not happening!
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Jul 10, 2014 8:12:13 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 8:12:13 GMT -5
The elder is my uncle, his wife was my friend in the teenage. They are workers taking care of the rubber trees. They had very little schooling or good at speaking. My uncle is sincere and gentle, not offending anyone .They are simple and appreciate F&W. They don’t agree with these workers about many things but because the love for their brother’s family (the man sitting in the wheelchair) they continue the fellowship with 2x2 systems and accompany to visit with us although it’s hard for them to travel because they live in rubber tree plantation The group party of 2 Canadian workers, 1 native worker and 3 elders came visiting …all of them were rich, well learned both in the secular world and in religion. The couple (my uncle and his wife) was surprised to receive the party of general staft of 2x2ism. The couple only knew to pray God help them to be wise to say in the will of God, helful to people who hear…and ask God to have enough strength to tell their belief and their service of God. My aunt said she knew they (the party) had also prayed God before coming here …but she thanked God for every thing happened showing that God was with her, God put the words in their (the couple) mouth. God accepted her prayers. They (the party) asked the couple to give the choice and the couple chose the fellowship that they felt the love, the unity and had the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Immediately after that, Mr. Colin ( temporary overseer while Mr. Lyle was absent) said “we will change another elder…” The couple were feeling comfortable and satisfactory after the conversation. I will tell more details in the conversation that the couple shared with us I find it rather sickening that such enormous examples of power abuse and total collapse of basic Christian values by 2x2 leadership in Vietnam can continue unabated, as it obviously has -- and none of the rest of the 2x2 world react in the slightest. All reports I receive of 2x2 activity is 'business as usual' -- 'put your trust in the workers' at the same time as these horrible abuse examples continue and continue. Ignorance is no excuse this time. We have heard so much about 'things being better now' and 'changes have been made to hinder the recurance of previous episodes like the Alberta massexcommunications' -- This in Vietnam seems to be the same evil pattern but on a far greater scale!! 2x2ism has learned nothing from their previous blunders. Clearday -- what is your take? www.2x2vietnam.info/correspondence.aspTHIS IS AN ONGOING EXAMPLE OF NON-CONTESTABLE POWER ABUSE by 2x2 LEADERSHIP IN LARGE SCALE, and major trauma for many victims. --don't just smile sweetly and pretend it is not happening! I agree that nothing much, if anything, was learned from the Alberta experience because what has happened in VN is very similar and it's coming from much the same players. As far as most of the friends go, they get their primary information about places like Vietnam through the workers. So if they hear rumblings of bad stuff in Vietnam, they will call the workers for the story, get the party line, then assume that it is accurate and are reassured that all is well. It is very difficult for the friends to accept the word of "an enemy of truth" over a worker. It is outside their paradigm of thinking. The only time that changes is when the bad stuff happens right in front of their eyes and then what others say starts to make sense sometimes, but not always. It usually requires a personal trauma to shift the paradigm.
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Post by jondough on Jul 10, 2014 9:16:23 GMT -5
I think the paradigm is changing more than we realize, and in a subtle way.
CD, you can probably relate with this. When I go to meeting, I look at a lot of people, and wonder how many are shifting from the paradigm that you refer to, but are doing so silently. Even for myself, I don't try to make big waves, and upset everyone. Its counter productive. But when you have private conversations with many different ones, and the occasion arises to talk about different things like exclusivity, our history, and other things, you find that there are more shifting away than you realize.
In a private conversation with my Sunday morning mtg elder one time, I just came out and said that I don't believe that we are the only ones saved. I gave him some reasons. He didn't come out and agree with me, but the way he didn't refute me in any way spoke a message to me that he agreed. He was nodding his head when I was explaining.
There is no doubt, most do not want to loose their place. This is why they don't announce what they are thinking. I would say that many now have surfed the internet and ran into places like this that really start opening up your eyes.
That being said, its been for the good of the fellowship. The paradigm is even changing for the workers in general. Although they still tend to spend more time with those that are still very system minded. They are shifting from that feeling that they are walking around on a higher level than everyone else, and can micromanage our lives. The Friends no longer believe the workers are perfect, and whatever they say comes straight from God. In conversation with other Friends, we are no longer afraid to say something critical about what a worker spoke, or how they acted.
Yes, the paradigm is changing, but for many - especially you exes - somewhat unawares.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 9:22:09 GMT -5
Yes I agree Clearday --- and even the folks who are well aware of the ugly developments there, choose to pretend that it isn't their problem -- and that disregarding ALL negative moral concerns for others, is a 2x2 Christian virtue. So much for the spirit of love, compassion and interest in truth and goodness. 2x2ism has obviously become the king of Christian betrayal -- and contrary to the idiotic wishful thinking some proclaim of change and improvement ... Vietnam proves to me that it is worse and more evil than ever before!! Nobody within 2x2 ranks even knowing, seems to care.
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Jul 10, 2014 9:41:45 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 9:41:45 GMT -5
I think the paradigm is changing more than we realize, and in a subtle way. CD, you can probably relate with this. When I go to meeting, I look at a lot of people, and wonder how many are shifting from the paradigm that you refer to, but are doing so silently. Even for myself, I don't try to make big waves, and upset everyone. Its counter productive. But when you have private conversations with many different ones, and the occasion arises to talk about different things like exclusivity, our history, and other things, you find that there are more shifting away than you realize. In a private conversation with my Sunday morning mtg elder one time, I just came out and said that I don't believe that we are the only ones saved. I gave him some reasons. He didn't come out and agree with me, but the way he didn't refute me in any way spoke a message to me that he agreed. He was nodding his head when I was explaining. There is no doubt, most do not want to loose their place. This is why they don't announce what they are thinking. I would say that many now have surfed the internet and ran into places like this that really start opening up your eyes. That being said, its been for the good of the fellowship. The paradigm is even changing for the workers in general. Although they still tend to spend more time with those that are still very system minded. They are shifting from that feeling that they are walking around on a higher level than everyone else, and can micromanage our lives. The Friends no longer believe the workers are perfect, and whatever they say comes straight from God. In conversation with other Friends, we are no longer afraid to say something critical about what a worker spoke, or how they acted. Yes, the paradigm is changing, but for many - especially you exes - somewhat unawares. True. I have attended meeting with people who were going through a huge change and I didn't detect it for a long time. I do see more people going about their lives in a more spontaneous manner and fretting less about what others think. That is probably one sign of a shift.
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Jul 10, 2014 9:57:39 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 9:57:39 GMT -5
True. I have attended meeting with people who were going through a huge change and I didn't detect it for a long time. I do see more people going about their lives in a more spontaneous manner and fretting less about what others think. That is probably one sign of a shift. And this 'fretting less' is the important Christian issue -- at the very same time as leadership is using their membership-given mandate to abuse these poor folks in Vietnam as they see fit!!!! I am getting tired of all these empty, blue eyed assurances that things are getting better --- At this very moment reality at the top proves that its power-corruption is total Quite an ungodly brand of Christianity that 2x2 stands for! And membership is content to 'watch' and 'hallucinate' improvement
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Jul 10, 2014 13:44:52 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jul 10, 2014 13:44:52 GMT -5
The Vietnamese mess is a vast improvement on the Alberta mess in that:
1. Many more folk are resisting the unchristlike domination of the controlling-type workers.
2. Many are enjoying good fellowship together without the controlling workers.
3. At least one worker (Uncle Hoa) is supporting the "Golden Friends".
4. There is better awareness worldwide, due to the enormous effort of the Vietnamese folks to explain the situation on forums like this. This is no small feat, when English is not their first language.
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Post by Greg on Jul 10, 2014 18:32:44 GMT -5
I agree that nothing much, if anything, was learned from the Alberta experience because what has happened in VN is very similar and it's coming from much the same players. Some workers - especially Canadian - might agree. "The friends have learned nothing from the Alberta uprising."
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Jul 10, 2014 19:54:29 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jul 10, 2014 19:54:29 GMT -5
Am I understanding correctly that this visit by workers and elders took place soon after your visit? Yes, it is correct... Any 2x2 friends who want to communicate with us on the visit will be visited by workers and elders immediately after that...and ask them to give a choice. There are many elders the same that (I will mention later). They miss and thirst for the communion with love and unity that they had with us in the old time and they see that we have still kept it until now. they decide to accompany with us although after that there will be another visit getting them to give a choice...
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Post by fixit on Jul 10, 2014 20:44:55 GMT -5
Any 2x2 friends who want to communicate with us on the visit will be visited by workers and elders immediately after that...and ask them to give a choice. There are many elders the same that (I will mention later). They miss and thirst for the communion with love and unity that they had with us in the old time and they see that we have still kept it until now. they decide to accompany with us although after that there will be another visit getting them to give a choice... The controlling-spirit workers behaved in a similar way in Alberta, 1999:
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Post by openingact34 on Jul 10, 2014 22:46:04 GMT -5
The Vietnamese mess is a vast improvement on the Alberta mess in that: 1. Many more folk are resisting the unchristlike domination of the controlling-type workers. 2. Many are enjoying good fellowship together without the controlling workers. 3. At least one worker (Uncle Hoa) is supporting the "Golden Friends". 4. There is better awareness worldwide, due to the enormous effort of the Vietnamese folks to explain the situation on forums like this. This is no small feat, when English is not their first language. Perhaps the golden friends are coping much better. But is the ruling workers' behavior a vast improvement from 20 yrs ago in Alberta? Is the playbook still the same? Corner them and present them with an ultimatum after they meet with others who have been excommunicated? So far, this sounds suspiciously similar.
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Post by fixit on Jul 11, 2014 0:28:18 GMT -5
Am I understanding correctly that this visit by workers and elders took place soon after your visit? Yes, it is correct... Any 2x2 friends who want to communicate with us on the visit will be visited by workers and elders immediately after that...and ask them to give a choice. There are many elders the same that (I will mention later). They miss and thirst for the communion with love and unity that they had with us in the old time and they see that we have still kept it until now. they decide to accompany with us although after that there will be another visit getting them to give a choice... Controlling-spirit workers have no understanding of servant leadership, or the little child leadership that Jesus spoke of. They understand only the concept of hierarchy and control. It doesn't result in a happy church. They'll want to complete what they started, and drive a wedge between the golden friends and system friends until they're totally separated. The wolf among the sheep must be heartbreaking for uncles Chau and Hoa.
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Jul 11, 2014 1:12:33 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 1:12:33 GMT -5
The Vietnamese mess is a vast improvement on the Alberta mess in that: 1. Many more folk are resisting the unchristlike domination of the controlling-type workers. 2. Many are enjoying good fellowship together without the controlling workers. 3. At least one worker (Uncle Hoa) is supporting the "Golden Friends". 4. There is better awareness worldwide, due to the enormous effort of the Vietnamese folks to explain the situation on forums like this. This is no small feat, when English is not their first language. How victims may seem to be coping with this enormous example of systematic abuse is of course not where the complaint lies -- and the story is still unfolding there -- time will tell where it all ends. However 2x2 leaderships attitudes and methods are definatly equally ungodly and equally in conflict with the beautiful Christian spirit as they were then. An utter shame for Christianity. All the assurances pro-2x2 people have given that things are changing for the better have proven to be nothing more than wishful thinking in line with the 2x2 mindset. Hopeful fanticy based on the 2x2 propaganda that inspite of all that has happened, God is somehow still involved in the idiocy of 2x2ism. Pretending to be asleep - to avoid responsibility ... 2x2ism in a nutshell!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 8:52:54 GMT -5
The Vietnamese mess is a vast improvement on the Alberta mess in that: 1. Many more folk are resisting the unchristlike domination of the controlling-type workers. 2. Many are enjoying good fellowship together without the controlling workers. 3. At least one worker (Uncle Hoa) is supporting the "Golden Friends". 4. There is better awareness worldwide, due to the enormous effort of the Vietnamese folks to explain the situation on forums like this. This is no small feat, when English is not their first language. Perhaps the golden friends are coping much better. But is the ruling workers' behavior a vast improvement from 20 yrs ago in Alberta? Is the playbook still the same? Corner them and present them with an ultimatum after they meet with others who have been excommunicated? So far, this sounds suspiciously similar. You bring up an important issue regarding the "playbook". Most observers here think that the workers' playbook is the same as it was in Alberta but what has changed is how the players have responded to the playbook. Obviously in VN, there are some people who are operating from a different playbook than what the workers are using. The Golden Friends are operating on principle. The workers are operating on the Workers' Handbook which states that "if you disagree with me, you are wrong". It's just about that simple for many of them. With Colin et al traveling around forcing people into a choice borders on the cruel and ridiculous but that happened in Alberta too. "Do you support the workers?" is what went around and a "no"answer had consequences. One would think that the workers would learn from the past but they have not apparently.
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Post by mdm on Jul 11, 2014 11:16:19 GMT -5
You bring up an important issue regarding the "playbook". Most observers here think that the workers' playbook is the same as it was in Alberta but what has changed is how the players have responded to the playbook. Obviously in VN, there are some people who are operating from a different playbook than what the workers are using. The Golden Friends are operating on principle. The workers are operating on the Workers' Handbook which states that "if you disagree with me, you are wrong". It's just about that simple for many of them. With Colin et al traveling around forcing people into a choice borders on the cruel and ridiculous but that happened in Alberta too. "Do you support the workers?" is what went around and a "no"answer had consequences. One would think that the workers would learn from the past but they have not apparently.Depending on what the lesson is? If the lesson is that they as the ministry survived their actions in Alberta and that they can safely repeat them elsewhere, then they have apparently learned it. This loss of a large group of friends in Vietnam has not adversely affected the ministry in general, just as it didn't in Alberta. I don't think the workers, especially overseers, see loosing people as a loss to the church or to the ministry. They are sufficient unto themselves, and the friends are there just to say "amen" and provide what is necessary to keep the ministry alive. The people they loose can easily be dismissed as "unwilling, bitter, rebellious" and the loss viewed as a separation between the sheep and the goats. It obviously had to happen, and it's no fault of overseers. It's not their loss at all! I've heard of large groups of friends leaving the fellowship in Sweden and in Greece in the past. Anyone knows what that was about?
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Post by minhthanh on Jul 11, 2014 11:29:47 GMT -5
Perhaps the golden friends are coping much better. But is the ruling workers' behavior a vast improvement from 20 yrs ago in Alberta? Is the playbook still the same? Corner them and present them with an ultimatum after they meet with others who have been excommunicated? So far, this sounds suspiciously similar. You bring up an important issue regarding the "playbook". Most observers here think that the workers' playbook is the same as it was in Alberta but what has changed is how the players have responded to the playbook. Obviously in VN, there are some people who are operating from a different playbook than what the workers are using. The Golden Friends are operating on principle. The workers are operating on the Workers' Handbook which states that "if you disagree with me, you are wrong". It's just about that simple for many of them. With Colin et al traveling around forcing people into a choice borders on the cruel and ridiculous but that happened in Alberta too. "Do you support the workers?" is what went around and a "no"answer had consequences. One would think that the workers would learn from the past but they have not apparently. "Do you support the workers?"
That is all what the workers want…the friends must obey them (workers) although their deeds seem not right. In the conversation with my uncle, Colin (temporary overseer) asked individual people in the party to express their ideas…there was one elder recommending my uncle as this : “We are elders, we have to obey workers…” My uncle didn’t close his eyes to obey them. He told them (the party) about the deeds of overseers Darrel & Lyle as well as of young workers that Darrel introduced into the fields, which he himself witnessed. The disrespect for the native workers…and at last he concluded: “They didn’t have the guidance of Holy Spirit, so we have not been fed by them through their words or examples”. That is the reason why the couple didn’t support the workers… This also reminded me the saying of Mr. Lyle at my home, the reason why he didn’t allow us to continue the fellowship meeting at my house…although the fellowship meeting had lasted there more than 30 years. Here is his answer for our daughter and for us : “ Because you haven’t supported the young workers…” The condition to become an elder is very easy… they only need to obey and support the workers. I wonder if they need obey the counsels /teachings in the Bible.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 11, 2014 17:13:32 GMT -5
I think the paradigm is changing more than we realize, and in a subtle way. CD, you can probably relate with this. When I go to meeting, I look at a lot of people, and wonder how many are shifting from the paradigm that you refer to, but are doing so silently. Even for myself, I don't try to make big waves, and upset everyone. Its counter productive. But when you have private conversations with many different ones, and the occasion arises to talk about different things like exclusivity, our history, and other things, you find that there are more shifting away than you realize. In a private conversation with my Sunday morning mtg elder one time, I just came out and said that I don't believe that we are the only ones saved. I gave him some reasons. He didn't come out and agree with me, but the way he didn't refute me in any way spoke a message to me that he agreed. He was nodding his head when I was explaining. There is no doubt, most do not want to loose their place. This is why they don't announce what they are thinking. I would say that many now have surfed the internet and ran into places like this that really start opening up your eyes. That being said, its been for the good of the fellowship. The paradigm is even changing for the workers in general. Although they still tend to spend more time with those that are still very system minded. They are shifting from that feeling that they are walking around on a higher level than everyone else, and can micromanage our lives. The Friends no longer believe the workers are perfect, and whatever they say comes straight from God. In conversation with other Friends, we are no longer afraid to say something critical about what a worker spoke, or how they acted. Yes, the paradigm is changing, but for many - especially you exes - somewhat unawares. I suspect the paradigm is changing - gradually. But we tend to talk and associate with those with whom we share similar views. So non-exclusive friends could see a skewed sample, in much the same way exes could see a skewed sample. Don't forget the exes may be responsible for some of the change - not just through leaving - but many exes are in touch with many friends who are asking genuine questions about what is taught. As there are more exes (which seems to be the trend) this will only create more questions. People will have different responses depending on their paradigm but in an online world as you say there must be many who have a greater understanding through reading online etc. I see two things that have changed/are evolving in terms of message: 1. Workers' preaching has changed from "Our ministry comes from the shores of Galilee....to the stump that was always in the ground started shooting again....to we are the only church/way that has Jesus as our founder..." 2. Friends have changed from "A perfect ministry with a perfect message....to imperfect men and women (ie ministers) who preach a perfect message....to <still to emerge>. What will increasingly emerge here is that the message preached by the workers is not so perfect - in their authority they have added/taken away where it suits. It will only get back to core Christian doctrine/non-exclusivity as people challenge and question that. There is little doubt that workers are less interfering - except down under when it comes to fellowship privileges... I wish that the friends in general would stop the attitude and answer "the way is perfect, but the people are not." They need to realize that when the leadership is corrupt that that corrupts the whole organization or group.....the bible is specific on this.......besides to continue to listen to these power mad workers is encouraging them to continue in that way. I know some on here say that the gospel missions they've witnessed are sermons about Jesus....but after they've started noticing they have to admit that there is something added to the gospel of Jesus in order for people to make their choice to be a member. And IF they do not "get it", the meetings are not tested and the workers close the meetings for the time being maybe coming back the next year or a couple years later and sometimes again have to close the mission without testing the meetings because the looked for converts just do not "get it". NOw what is it they don't get? Isn't it the fact that they don't understand the two tenets of faith that is the backbone of the 2x2 religion? AS in "the 2x2 itinerant ministry" and the "meetings in the home"......these two things have been very much declared by a very important overseer and left as recorded to be what is the important thing of the fellowship's beliefs. I see the "Alberta excommunications" already in effect in Vietnam. And it is going to co ntinue to get uglier unless somehow, someway the Canadian and American bigshot workers are removed from Veitnam. I actually believe that it will become a fact that there will be NO 2x2 members in Vietnam. These bigshot workers are not going to be there for these folks day in and day out like the Golden Friends have always been....so these poor folks do the best they can and I know Jesus is pleased with that and doesn't expect them to be so high and mighty, ruling over one another, but actually loving one another! Seems the Canadian and America workers of this ordeal don't really know what true love is all about. Maybe we should pity them, eh?
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Vietnam
Jul 11, 2014 21:55:17 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jul 11, 2014 21:55:17 GMT -5
I wish that the friends in general would stop the attitude and answer "the way is perfect, but the people are not." They need to realize that when the leadership is corrupt that that corrupts the whole organization or group.....the bible is specific on this.......besides to continue to listen to these power mad workers is encouraging them to continue in that way. I know some on here say that the gospel missions they've witnessed are sermons about Jesus....but after they've started noticing they have to admit that there is something added to the gospel of Jesus in order for people to make their choice to be a member. And IF they do not "get it", the meetings are not tested and the workers close the meetings for the time being maybe coming back the next year or a couple years later and sometimes again have to close the mission without testing the meetings because the looked for converts just do not "get it". NOw what is it they don't get? Isn't it the fact that they don't understand the two tenets of faith that is the backbone of the 2x2 religion? AS in "the 2x2 itinerant ministry" and the "meetings in the home"......these two things have been very much declared by a very important overseer and left as recorded to be what is the important thing of the fellowship's beliefs. There's really only one tenet of faith: Unquestioning obedience to the ministry.
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Vietnam
Jul 12, 2014 10:01:36 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 12, 2014 10:01:36 GMT -5
I wish that the friends in general would stop the attitude and answer "the way is perfect, but the people are not." They need to realize that when the leadership is corrupt that that corrupts the whole organization or group.....the bible is specific on this.......besides to continue to listen to these power mad workers is encouraging them to continue in that way. I know some on here say that the gospel missions they've witnessed are sermons about Jesus....but after they've started noticing they have to admit that there is something added to the gospel of Jesus in order for people to make their choice to be a member. And IF they do not "get it", the meetings are not tested and the workers close the meetings for the time being maybe coming back the next year or a couple years later and sometimes again have to close the mission without testing the meetings because the looked for converts just do not "get it". NOw what is it they don't get? Isn't it the fact that they don't understand the two tenets of faith that is the backbone of the 2x2 religion? AS in "the 2x2 itinerant ministry" and the "meetings in the home"......these two things have been very much declared by a very important overseer and left as recorded to be what is the important thing of the fellowship's beliefs. There's really only one tenet of faith: Unquestioning obedience to the ministry. Yes, that would be the only tenet for the friends...unquestioning obedience to the ministry! However, as the overseer spoke to BM, the workers' tenets of belief are the 2x2 itinerant ministry and the meetings in the home. And off of that of course, the workers feel that the priority is the 2x2 itinerant ministry and thus they are so "in" with the above persons that the friends MUST obey them!
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