Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 13:04:50 GMT -5
Well, then,, Rat, you can know I am praying for you. In many ways, I am sorry for your having to suffer physically, and have begged my God to help you endure as least pain possible. I also ask Him to continue to trouble you about HIS existence as it is so obvious that you are, by all your posts of denial.
There was a man who claimed not to believe there was anything to death burial and resurrection. In fact he said to prove it he was going to be cremated, and any remains scattered to the winds. Thought came to me, if one was so certain why would they ever go to such extent? Your posts often remind me of that man. I believe you to be a kind, caring person, a stickler for accuracy, which I believe is a good thing.
Now this will likely be my last post for a while as I leave in 18 hours to fly back to Washington State and still have much to do before then.
So, good bye for now, people I think of as my friends and some as acquaintances. Wishing each one all the best.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 11, 2013 13:35:11 GMT -5
A popular phrase in my part of the country is this, "I'll pray for you." Such as in response to hearing that someone has the flu. Or that someone was just laid off from their job, or had a big test coming up, etc. People go onto Facebook quite often and ask for prayers for their cousin or uncle or aunt (etc) that is going in for surgery, etc. They ask for prayers. And people, quite naturally respond, "I'll be praying for you." Here's an idea, instead, ask, "What can I do to help?" "Do you need help with a hotel while you are waiting in perhaps at an out of town hospital, or help with the surgery costs, or meals, etc. Or to a person that is layed off, offering to help with the bills, helping network to find another job, or even just offering a friendly ear and an encouraging voice. "I'll pray for you", as a commentator mentioned on another discussion board in regards to the mega church that he attended, is the Christian equivalent (in some cases) to "F*** you. I'm not helping, that is God's job." And he is right. Prayer is a mighty source of prayer, as we sing in our 2x2 hymn book, but burying our talent in the ground and doing nothing because we know the nature of God seems to make God angry- just reread the parable of the talents and know that what the man did with his talent WAS NOTHING. That was what he was guilty of before God. I firmly believe that we show our love for God by our love to our neighbors and our enemies. We have a 'prayer request chain' at our church. People will ask for prayers and they will be sent to those of us that participate. When someone asks for prayers, it allows those that hear about it to be aware of a need in their lives. This gives the recipient the opportunity to pray, respond with physical help, encouragement or however they are moved to help. It certainly isn't a way of saying f-off. ts mentioned: I do agree that if it is in our power to help a situation in whatever way we can help, then we should not pass up the opportunity to sow seed. I believe that giving of the natural in little things is sowing seed for a richer harvest later on. So, yes, give, help...whatever the situation dictates under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The last sentence is the important part. If the Holy Spirit guides us to help out, then we should. However, we shouldn't just give because someone demands it. There are too many people out there that prey on Christians and take advantage of their generosity. It reminds me of the guy that I run have ran in to on several occasions that asks for help and gives a sad story about why he needs money. Each time it is for a different reason, and so it is obvious that he is a professional panhandler working the street. If he spent the same amount of time actually working a job, he wouldn't have to be out begging others for money. Of course then he wouldn't be self-employed and would have to answer to someone else. (and he might not make as much!) I believe that when a need is known that the need will be taken care of. But at the same time I don't think that a need is the same thing as expecting to live on the generosity of others. There is nothing wrong with helping someone get on their feet and getting through a rough time in their lives, but there is something wrong with helping someone to their feet only to have them sit back down and wait for the next person to help them back up.......
|
|
|
Post by ts on Feb 11, 2013 15:12:33 GMT -5
Sacerdotal,
I had an experience a couple of years ago that made me realize just how much I was caught up in the attitude you are talking about.
I was at a missions leadership training session that lasted a couple of days. We were staying in cabins with a common bathroom. Late in the night(I guess around about 2am) I woke up with a splitting headache. Very unusual for me. I could not get comfortable unless I sat up or walked around. Even still it hurt but was better than lying down. I went to the bathroom and there was another guy in there. He was about to take a shower to try to relieve a headache. He also woke up with a splitting headache. We talked about it and he said, "Will you pray for me." I said, "sure" and I walked out of the bathroom with the thought that I would get down by my bed and pray for him.
When I got to the room, it dawned on me that he meant would I pray for him OUT LOUD right then and there!!!! I was really uncomfortable with that because it was not what I had learned in my experience in the work or anywhere else. Others had prayed for me and ministered to me. I don't think I had ever had anyone ask me to pray for them on the spot. It was just foreign to me.
I turned around and went back in the bathroom and said, "You meant you wanted me to pray for you RIGHT NOW, didn't you." He said, "yeah". So, we prayed right there in the bathroom. The headache went away and we went back to bed.
I think it was a lesson that God was teaching me. I little step of faith to learn faith.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Feb 11, 2013 15:33:42 GMT -5
A popular phrase in my part of the country is this, "I'll pray for you." Such as in response to hearing that someone has the flu. Or that someone was just laid off from their job, or had a big test coming up, etc. People go onto Facebook quite often and ask for prayers for their cousin or uncle or aunt (etc) that is going in for surgery, etc. They ask for prayers. And people, quite naturally respond, "I'll be praying for you." Here's an idea, instead, ask, "What can I do to help?" "Do you need help with a hotel while you are waiting in perhaps at an out of town hospital, or help with the surgery costs, or meals, etc. Or to a person that is layed off, offering to help with the bills, helping network to find another job, or even just offering a friendly ear and an encouraging voice. "I'll pray for you", as a commentator mentioned on another discussion board in regards to the mega church that he attended, is the Christian equivalent (in some cases) to "F*** you. I'm not helping, that is God's job." And he is right. Prayer is a mighty source of prayer, as we sing in our 2x2 hymn book, but burying our talent in the ground and doing nothing because we know the nature of God seems to make God angry- just reread the parable of the talents and know that what the man did with his talent WAS NOTHING. That was what he was guilty of before God. I firmly believe that we show our love for God by our love to our neighbors and our enemies. We have a 'prayer request chain' at our church. People will ask for prayers and they will be sent to those of us that participate. When someone asks for prayers, it allows those that hear about it to be aware of a need in their lives. This gives the recipient the opportunity to pray, respond with physical help, encouragement or however they are moved to help. It certainly isn't a way of saying f-off. ts mentioned: I do agree that if it is in our power to help a situation in whatever way we can help, then we should not pass up the opportunity to sow seed. I believe that giving of the natural in little things is sowing seed for a richer harvest later on. So, yes, give, help...whatever the situation dictates under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The last sentence is the important part. If the Holy Spirit guides us to help out, then we should. However, we shouldn't just give because someone demands it. There are too many people out there that prey on Christians and take advantage of their generosity. It reminds me of the guy that I run have ran in to on several occasions that asks for help and gives a sad story about why he needs money. Each time it is for a different reason, and so it is obvious that he is a professional panhandler working the street. If he spent the same amount of time actually working a job, he wouldn't have to be out begging others for money. Of course then he wouldn't be self-employed and would have to answer to someone else. (and he might not make as much!) I believe that when a need is known that the need will be taken care of. But at the same time I don't think that a need is the same thing as expecting to live on the generosity of others. There is nothing wrong with helping someone get on their feet and getting through a rough time in their lives, but there is something wrong with helping someone to their feet only to have them sit back down and wait for the next person to help them back up....... Well, I can't say how the Holy Spirit is leading you or anyone else in any particular situation. I do believe that we are given tests to prove where our hearts are. There will be those in judgment whom God can lift up in testimony against all our excuses. I gave an example in my own life. Looking back, I know that God was leading me and my wife through some very hard experiences. The further we go in His way, we are able to view those experiences with more and more gratitude. At the time, we were anything but grateful. During the past, say 5 to 7 years, we indeed have relied largely on the benevolence of others. Some have judged us as professional pan handlers and others have given unconditionally, encouraged us, equipt us and empowered us. Now we are on our feet and helping others. I don't judge others where they are and whatever they may not have done for us. I know that in my experience that I have sown the seeds of giving and am now reaping the harvest of that. I also have sown the seeds of selfishness and judgment and am reaping that harvest also(perhaps even the judgment I received as being a "freeloader" is because of my own judgment towards others rather than simply giving). I do think we are all in a learning process. I believe the closer we get to Jesus, the more we will be able to be perfect and sell all that we have and give to the poor and follow Jesus and prove that He provides for us in ALL situations when we are seeking the kingdom of heaven first. The closer we get there, I believe that is where we will gain more and more spiritual authority and have exciting adventures in Christ Jesus. We will see miracles more and more and be more and more in the very presence of the All Mighty. We will have adventures like Philip who was taken up by the Holy Spirit to go and help the Ethiopian eunuch. There are modern day accounts that are comparable to that. The fear of giving to a "freeloader" is that there is a perception that there are not enough resources. That God is not faithful to pay you back when you loan to the poor. In Proverbs it says, "he that gives to the poor loans to God and God repays his deed." It takes faith to really believe that. "Sow your bread upon the waters and after many days you will find it." When we pray to God for our needs, what we are asking for is a harvest. What God gives us is seed. We can either plant those seeds or we can keep those seeds for our own immediate needs. I don't recall anywhere where Jesus talks about freeloaders, although I am sure they existed in Jesus' day every bit as much as in our day.
|
|
|
Post by Jason Storebo on Feb 11, 2013 16:26:36 GMT -5
Various professing people in my family seem to have found themselves experiencing the dubious fortune of falling into the pit of attitudinal error, that is of being so convinced/brainwashed, into...nah, never mind...they are deceased now and can't defend themselves. And besides the prayed for individuals did have honest hearts...and besides they meant well.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Feb 11, 2013 16:30:15 GMT -5
Exactly. I'm sure they think they are doing something wonderful for me by telling me they will pray for me because it is what they do with their Christian friends. They don't stop and think about how they sound and I know they mean well, most of the time... There are times I do know they are praying that I will get what they just 'know'. I still wonder who they think I would pray to. Do they want to risk me praying to the wrong God or are they trusting me to talk to their God when they do this? I really don't know what they are thinking when they ask me to pray for them. In most cases, I would interpret "I'll pray for you" as saying "I care about you and want the best outcome for you". It's an expressed sentiment not far off "I love you". In all likelihood I would respond "hey thanks, that's kind of you to think of me!" We learned as kids that "it's not the gift, it's the thought that counts"! CD that is how I respond. I do say thank you for caring about me. What else can you say. However, I do want to say something when it seems quite evident that they are praying for me because I 'don't get it'. I have a SIL and sister that do that. I had a phone call from my SIL in 1999 asking me to repeat something after her so I could go to heaven with them. The rest of the family wanted me to go to heaven with them. I told her I wasn't comfortable doing that and she was very condescending. She right out stated that I would be going to hell then. So I know what she means when she is 'praying' for me. I don't say anything, but I do want to. What would you do in that case? would you say something to the person who clearly was stating you were headed to hell? I guess another reason why it bothers me when people thank God for answering their prayers is that it is more often a human being that did the deed. Thanking God seems to negate the deed that another human did. Sorry if I'm not making my thoughts clear.
|
|
|
Post by Jason Storebo on Feb 11, 2013 16:44:47 GMT -5
Your thoughts are quite clear. I once had a madman stop me in the street and offer to pray for me. I didn't know whether to thank him, or whether to walk away as quickly as I could. So I did both. I felt uncomfortable. And I just hate it when I become uncomfortable. Walk away quickly and keep a sharp eye in the mirror.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 18:19:41 GMT -5
In most cases, I would interpret "I'll pray for you" as saying "I care about you and want the best outcome for you". It's an expressed sentiment not far off "I love you". In all likelihood I would respond "hey thanks, that's kind of you to think of me!" We learned as kids that "it's not the gift, it's the thought that counts"! CD that is how I respond. I do say thank you for caring about me. What else can you say. However, I do want to say something when it seems quite evident that they are praying for me because I 'don't get it'. I have a SIL and sister that do that. I had a phone call from my SIL in 1999 asking me to repeat something after her so I could go to heaven with them. The rest of the family wanted me to go to heaven with them. I told her I wasn't comfortable doing that and she was very condescending. She right out stated that I would be going to hell then. So I know what she means when she is 'praying' for me. I don't say anything, but I do want to. What would you do in that case? would you say something to the person who clearly was stating you were headed to hell? It's definitely a form of spiritual abuse. They drive more people away than do any good with that sort of activity. When it's family and you need to maintain some semblance of a good relationship, I think you have to keep your remarks positive, which I am sure you do since you are that sort of person anyway. So, something like this: "sorry I can't do that because I don't believe in it at this time but I really appreciate you trying, that's very nice of you! If my beliefs change, I will definitely let you be the first to know!" I don't know why people feel that they have to force feed someone into their religious concepts because if it is successful all they have done is create a hypocrite who is playing along with them. The more likely reaction is to push people away. I have a family of non-professing inlaws (exes) whom I get along with quite well. At least two of them have mentioned to my kids that they really appreciate the fact that I don't try to shove religion (especially the 2x2-type) down their throats. Instead, over the years I have become the go-to guy for general religious information for some of them, which has actually fostered some barriers being broken down from an unsatisfactory childhood connection with religion. There is no question in my mind that most, if not all, "answered" prayers have a logical explanation. Still, thanking God for all good things is a pretty healthy thing to do imo, if you believe in God. Gratitude is always good for the body and the soul. If you view God as Love for instance, then even if some human did the good deed for you, God is the ultimate legitimate benefactor. It has a lot in how you perceive God or how others perceive God. If you are an atheist, it is still a good thing to be grateful, even if it is gratitude to the permutations and combinations of events which conspired to make the good things happen! :)
|
|
|
Post by ts on Feb 11, 2013 21:32:33 GMT -5
I am not so sure that all answered prayers have a logical explanation, Clearday.
In South Africa, we had let a family stay with us a couple of months while they were building a house. They used our bedroom since they had more children and it was a larger room. Someone had loaned us a mattress and they were using it. We were in a small office with our children.
After they left, we moved back in our bedroom only to discover that we had bed bugs. We were VERY poor. I caught a glimpse of one of them(the first I had ever seen) and looked it up on line to confirm my suspicion about what it was. We had bites on us. Especially my daughter who attracts any insect that likes blood, for some reason. She looked like she had a mild case of chicken pocks.
Every night we would feel these little creatures crawling on us and we would have bite marks on us in the morning. This went on for several days. I don't remember how long. Perhaps a couple of weeks. You know how hard and expensive(near impossible) it is to get rid of bed bugs.
One night we were lying in bed trying to go to sleep with these things crawling on us. I prayed and said something like, "Father, you know that we cannot afford to get rid of these bed bugs and this mattress is borrowed. Can you please get rid of these bed bugs for us?"
Instantaneously they stopped crawling on us. A few seconds later, I felt another crawling and prayed again and it went away and we never felt it again. The bite marks cleared up on our children.
They were asleep when I prayed. I don't think the bites and the bugs going away is anything a placebo can do. There is no other explanation except God had mercy on us and now our faith is stronger as a result.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Feb 12, 2013 0:03:20 GMT -5
I think sometimes letting people know that we will be thinking about them and caring is the best we can do. Last week and old friend had a double mastectomy. She lives across the country, so I couldn't visit. She has great health insurance and is well-off--so she didn't need money. She has a fantastic husband, caring children who live close and a good support network--so she is going to be taken well care of. I sent her family a care package for after the surgery (stuff that might be useful/fun) and a note that I am praying that the operation is successful in eliminating the problem. I don't think it is a cop-out--it lets her know I care, in a circumstance where there is really not much I can do for her. +1
|
|
|
Post by kencoolidge on Feb 12, 2013 9:12:35 GMT -5
Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Is this at odds with I will pray for you? ken
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 9:24:41 GMT -5
Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Is this at odds with I will praty for you? ken Yes it is if "I will pray for you" is (1)an excuse to evade doing something that is within your ability or (2) a weapon to condemn someone with. I think that's the whole point of this thread.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Feb 12, 2013 10:13:03 GMT -5
Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Is this at odds with I will praty for you? ken Yes it is if "I will pray for you" is (1)an excuse to evade doing something that is within your ability or (2) a weapon to condemn someone with. I think that's the whole point of this thread. Like, "Let God handle it...('cause it will hurt my reputation if I handle it). You sound bitter. I will pray for you."
|
|
|
Post by ts on Feb 12, 2013 10:42:55 GMT -5
Or,
Expressed need: "We don't have food in the house."
Response: "Well, what we are most concerned about is your soul."
Seems SD is saying that if there IS something that you can do and it is in your power to do it, then it is less than helpful to throw out a prayer to the person. In fact, it is unscriptural and contrary to what James was saying.
Can we really see the love of God (even in a worker) if that is a person's attitude.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Feb 12, 2013 15:24:04 GMT -5
CD that is how I respond. I do say thank you for caring about me. What else can you say. However, I do want to say something when it seems quite evident that they are praying for me because I 'don't get it'. I have a SIL and sister that do that. I had a phone call from my SIL in 1999 asking me to repeat something after her so I could go to heaven with them. The rest of the family wanted me to go to heaven with them. I told her I wasn't comfortable doing that and she was very condescending. She right out stated that I would be going to hell then. So I know what she means when she is 'praying' for me. I don't say anything, but I do want to. What would you do in that case? would you say something to the person who clearly was stating you were headed to hell? It's definitely a form of spiritual abuse. They drive more people away than do any good with that sort of activity. When it's family and you need to maintain some semblance of a good relationship, I think you have to keep your remarks positive, which I am sure you do since you are that sort of person anyway. So, something like this: "sorry I can't do that because I don't believe in it at this time but I really appreciate you trying, that's very nice of you! If my beliefs change, I will definitely let you be the first to know!" I don't know why people feel that they have to force feed someone into their religious concepts because if it is successful all they have done is create a hypocrite who is playing along with them. The more likely reaction is to push people away. I have a family of non-professing inlaws (exes) whom I get along with quite well. At least two of them have mentioned to my kids that they really appreciate the fact that I don't try to shove religion (especially the 2x2-type) down their throats. Instead, over the years I have become the go-to guy for general religious information for some of them, which has actually fostered some barriers being broken down from an unsatisfactory childhood connection with religion. There is no question in my mind that most, if not all, "answered" prayers have a logical explanation. Still, thanking God for all good things is a pretty healthy thing to do imo, if you believe in God. Gratitude is always good for the body and the soul. If you view God as Love for instance, then even if some human did the good deed for you, God is the ultimate legitimate benefactor. It has a lot in how you perceive God or how others perceive God. If you are an atheist, it is still a good thing to be grateful, even if it is gratitude to the permutations and combinations of events which conspired to make the good things happen! :) I agree that for those who believe in a god, and that prayer helps, that they should do that. But amongst themselves. I do just say thank you for caring and leave it at that. Those who don't believe in gods, are grateful, but to people, not gods. They are grateful for all the help and caring they receive from people. I am anyway. Shouldn't be attempting to speak for others.
|
|
|
Post by stargazer on Feb 12, 2013 15:30:51 GMT -5
I believe in prayer, but I'd prefer, if I'm being prayed for, not to hear about it so I don't have to sort out the motives behind being told or subject myself to waves of self doubt and fear as to what I might need, or resentment that whoever was praying for me is asserting some superior position or capability in the pecking order of prayers........
But, I'm open to being told I'm loved.
but then again........ hey it's just me.
In the mean time I'll pray fo...........
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 15:48:08 GMT -5
In the mean time I'll pray fo........... don't you dare
|
|
|
Post by kencoolidge on Feb 13, 2013 6:54:04 GMT -5
Seems to me that for some there is a division -one the the Christian act of praying for someone and physically helping the other from Luke these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
|
|