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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 22:32:20 GMT -5
The friends check around to see which workers come and stay in their fields for the year. I guess I wasn't given those instructions to check around about workers when I professed. Or when I was baptized. Or when I had workers stay with us for a month at a time while living overseas. I did all these things in complete sincerity of heart, with full trust, but it turns out that I was an uninformed fool. Religion, no matter which one, has a tendency to cause people to suspend their reason, their vigilance, their skepticism and their objectivity. It's no different in the meetings. I am involved in the meetings and have learned this over the years: almost no workers and very few elders can be trusted in a certain way. Allow me to explain. Here is the reason: all workers place their first loyalty to their overseer, then their colleagues, then their elders. You come after that. So, if you are at odds with any of those on that list, your worker will compromise his/her integrity in favour of those people on that list and it won't matter how right you are. In practice, this problem doesn't reveal itself frequently, but in a crisis, it comes out strongly that "the system" (ie,the hierarchy and the favoured practices) must be preserved. For the most part, these are all good people but are caught up in a system of priorities which doesn't always work out right. The only answer is to live in your integrity and beliefs in God. Maintain an active sense of conscience and don't let anyone compromise it. Then, no matter what happens, you'll do just fine.
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Post by fixit on Jan 28, 2013 22:38:46 GMT -5
The friends check around to see which workers come and stay in their fields for the year. I guess I wasn't given those instructions to check around about workers when I professed. Or when I was baptized. Or when I had workers stay with us for a month at a time while living overseas. I did all these things in complete sincerity of heart, with full trust, but it turns out that I was an uninformed fool. Sharyl, please don't despair. There are a good number of righteous workers and I'm still hopeful that the righteous friends will stand by them and help to expose the ungodliness that we've all allowed to creep in to the ministry and fellowship. "Now it is high time to awake out of sleep" Rom 13:11
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Post by Greg on Jan 28, 2013 22:42:43 GMT -5
Thank you Greg for your help. That's exactly what I had in mind. I am sorry for sounding angry, I am not angry, I am in despair, crying as I am writing. Why am I here on this board at all? Because the ones I have talked to in person about sexual immorality, CSA in particular, are not crying. At the cost of sounding completely foolish to those who have left the fellowship, I will say that I care, I deeply care about the fellowship, and I am oh so disappointed. From my experience there are different understandings and tolerances of things concerning sins, immorality, and crimes. Some do not want to know anything of any others' faults. Some do not hear or hear little of others' faults. Some hear, but will not accept what they hear. Some hear, but cannot or will not seek verification. Some hear, but feel nothing can be done by them. Some hear, but feel the workers should take care of the matter...even if they are the matter. Some hear, but fear making a known/physical stand might cost them their place in the fellowship. A problem can concern what is known. Just because you hear something does not make it true, no matter who tells you something (or does not tell you something). So, an admonition is "if you do not know, then don't talk about it." Another problem is knowing and following what the New Testament (and if need be the Old) teaches on sin (and its consequences to the sinner) and forgiveness. Some might treat CSA or worker sexual affairs as a sin with the condition that a sin is a sin is a sin. Along with that is "we all fall short of the mark". Along with the possibilty that some powers that be workers are protecting their own, protecting the ministry, and/or protecting the fellowship, one has to consider that some (maybe most?) are doing what is best or at least what they think is best. Powers that be workers are not the only problem, though. Parents really need to risk their standing in the fellowship if they have such fear for speaking out. Yet I think we can understand that for the sake of their child they do not want to go public.
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Post by Greg on Jan 28, 2013 22:47:16 GMT -5
You remind me of a woman I knew that owned a restaurant. When owners of the building wanted her to do something she would reply, "What you mean? What you mean?" But if they were going to do something for her she would reply, "Okay....okay....okay...." Next time, why don't you let her try to explain what she was talking about. I know you're trying to help out but somtimes you make the water muddier.No, you either cannot see or will not see. You are as the boat captain sailing crosswise of the waves and making passengers seasick. Someone tells you that you are rocking the boat. Your response is "Be quiet, you are disturbing the passengers' peace."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 23:03:16 GMT -5
holdmyhand said: Once you have experienced the lack of honesty, justice, accountability and love that people experience from workers and see the lengths they go to to discredit or lie to cover up their mistakes you understand why the grapevine and TMB is used
What shocks me is that professing people accept that there should be no open discussion. I am in the process of doing the opposite. Regardless of what it costs me. I cannot live a lie and perpetuate it within the fellowship. If I don't last here, so be it. I know, somebody is bound to ask: what lie? so I'll answer right now in case it's not clear: the lie that everybody around me puts forward - that everything is OK, that there are no problems to be addressed, that workers are to be trusted. If that wasn't a lie, there would be no need for the grapevine. It is to be expected that there are problems, but then be brave and sincere and talk about them, address them publicly, deal with them, solve them. I am a very reserved person, but in the face of child abuse, I cannot keep quiet and look the other way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 23:52:50 GMT -5
holdmyhand said: Once you have experienced the lack of honesty, justice, accountability and love that people experience from workers and see the lengths they go to to discredit or lie to cover up their mistakes you understand why the grapevine and TMB is used What shocks me is that professing people accept that there should be no open discussion. I am in the process of doing the opposite. Regardless of what it costs me. I cannot live a lie and perpetuate it within the fellowship. If I don't last here, so be it. I know, somebody is bound to ask: what lie? so I'll answer right now in case it's not clear: the lie that everybody around me puts forward - that everything is OK, that there are no problems to be addressed, that workers are to be trusted. If that wasn't a lie, there would be no need for the grapevine. It is to be expected that there are problems, but then be brave and sincere and talk about them, address them publicly, deal with them, solve them. I am a very reserved person, but in the face of child abuse, I cannot keep quiet and look the other way. Some of the friends, a worker/my former companion, and myself warned the friends and workers about the danger of CSA 12 yrs ago on my message board.2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=aa&action=display&thread=52Friends in our meeting don't believe in reading internet sites about fellowship. We can talk all we want online, it will never reach them. More importantly, it won't reach the ones just starting out in this way, who are full of trust and not even dreaming that their trust could be misused. I for one never cared to look closely into websites about the way until this month. And I've been professing for 15 years. Internet is fine, and useful for finding out what's happening in other parts of the country and/or world, but why not also talk about these matters face to face with friends and workers? We are not an internet church, but a church that meets in homes, with real live people. I am talking with workers and friends, now that I know about the problem. Fear is not going to stop me, this issue is too important.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 0:23:01 GMT -5
Nathan9,
have you given the friends and workers the websites where they can get informed at their own leisure?
Has anybody else done that in lieu of talking to them?
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Post by holdmyhand on Jan 29, 2013 0:39:20 GMT -5
holdmyhand said: Once you have experienced the lack of honesty, justice, accountability and love that people experience from workers and see the lengths they go to to discredit or lie to cover up their mistakes you understand why the grapevine and TMB is used What shocks me is that professing people accept that there should be no open discussion. I am in the process of doing the opposite. Regardless of what it costs me. I cannot live a lie and perpetuate it within the fellowship. If I don't last here, so be it. I know, somebody is bound to ask: what lie? so I'll answer right now in case it's not clear: the lie that everybody around me puts forward - that everything is OK, that there are no problems to be addressed, that workers are to be trusted. If that wasn't a lie, there would be no need for the grapevine. It is to be expected that there are problems, but then be brave and sincere and talk about them, address them publicly, deal with them, solve them. I am a very reserved person, but in the face of child abuse, I cannot keep quiet and look the other way. sharyl we are pleased to have you here The fellowship needs a lot more like you, everything is NOT OK and we need to stand against the wrong that is continually being covered. I sometimes dispare when trying to wake friends and relatives who are in a state of delusion, believing there is nothing really wrong or its only one or two causing the problems. Every one not actively standing up against wrong is part of THE PROBLEMI believe we will make more progress by using action as well as words, by that I mean boycotting meetings of workers who side with ungodly decisions, telling people why you have a problem, most will ask and waiting for them to see where you are coming from. I don't tell anyone who I don't think will be receptive because they are not YET ready to hear. I am quite prepared for the possibility I may be removed from fellowship for insubordination, that is in Gods hands and I am coming to terms with it So sharyl like you I understand the cost is high but really the cost of doing nothing is much higher, there are many here who understand where you are coming from they help to keep us focused
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 1:07:29 GMT -5
ckirkham,
Thank you for your warning. I understand very well that we should not preach to each other in our meetings. But if I can't talk to people outside of meetings about issues that the Bible addresses and that are not doctrinally controversial, then I don't see what my place in this group is good for. I have learned to keep quiet about a lot of things that I care for, but are not essential. This one I believe is essential.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 29, 2013 2:20:23 GMT -5
ckirkham, Thank you for your warning. I understand very well that we should not preach to each other in our meetings. But if I can't talk to people outside of meetings about issues that the Bible addresses and that are not doctrinally controversial, then I don't see what my place in this group is good for. I have learned to keep quiet about a lot of things that I care for, but are not essential. This one I believe is essential. Sharyl, I know how you feel.
As I was growing up, no one ever discussed issues of the doctrine out side of meetings.
Not even workers when they visited.
In fact all you ever heard was "small talk" & often jokes, from the workers--silly stuff-
of course they wouldn't discuss politics- you weren't supposed to be interested in that kind of thing (god will take care of that)
there was never any real meaning to what they said- it was just so much chaff.
The friends never discussed any thing outside the meetings either.
People didn't even discuss anything about their jobs!
no politics, no sports (of course, !) not jobs, not anything in the news, or current happenings in the world, no books that you had read.
Your everyday life wasn't important- you were sojourner, you weren't supposed to be concerned about this life, it was the the after life that was the only important issue, yet you NEVER talked about that either!
This created a fertile place for gossip! That was something most people were very good at, and I believe it was simply because they never could talk about any thing that was truly meaningful!
When I look back on it, what a sterile existence it was!
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 29, 2013 6:46:34 GMT -5
We talked about all those things where I grew up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 8:45:55 GMT -5
We talked about all those things where I grew up. I agree, we talked about all that and more. I would suggest that the above items were a family cultural trait or a local church trait, not a widely based church trait. We talked about church and faith things too when visitors and workers were around, but I think that was more of a family trait than a broadly based church trait. F&Ws commonly avoid faith discussion in most places. They will talk about it if engaged but it is rarely a spontaneous part of a conversation.
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Post by stargazer on Jan 29, 2013 8:46:41 GMT -5
Dale Shulz doesn't have the letter "t" in his name. For what it's worth and if it really matters? the Dale Shultz from Saskatchewan - now in Ca spells his name Dale Shultz then again, Dale Shultz does spell his name with a t in it unlike Dale Shulz.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 10:36:23 GMT -5
ckirkham said: As I was growing up, no one ever discussed issues of the doctrine out side of meetings. I didn't grow up in this, so things may have changed. Folks we know talk about all of the above, sometimes too much for my taste We talked a lot about doctrine as well for years because we were new and were trying to understand what they believe. We are probably professing because those we were in touch with were open to talking about everything under the sun. We knew about the beginnings of this way and even about some controversies from the early days even before we professed. It was quite shocking to find out that not everybody knew! Of course, that lack of transparency now paints a different picture of the fellowship from what I had. But I care about this fellowship, and that's why I am going to keep talking.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 29, 2013 10:49:02 GMT -5
Good for you!
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Post by quizzer on Jan 29, 2013 11:21:59 GMT -5
ckirkham said: As I was growing up, no one ever discussed issues of the doctrine out side of meetings. I didn't grow up in this, so things may have changed. Folks we know talk about all of the above, sometimes too much for my taste We talked a lot about doctrine as well for years because we were new and were trying to understand what they believe. We are probably professing because those we were in touch with were open to talking about everything under the sun. We knew about the beginnings of this way and even about some controversies from the early days even before we professed. It was quite shocking to find out that not everybody knew! Of course, that lack of transparency now paints a different picture of the fellowship from what I had. But I care about this fellowship, and that's why I am going to keep talking. sharyl, hang in there. Growing up, I was told a lot of family stories that outlined 2x2 abuse. My family had tried to help various folks, and found out a lot about the strange behavior of the 2x2s. Talking about this was difficult because my grandmother was branded as being a "Revealer of the Truth." My family was spiritually killed for three generations. As a result, anything we could have said/done was lost because the workers warned others to either stay away from us or be careful around us. The bad news is that speaking out can be detrimental to your family's socializing inside the meetings. The good news is that you will be able to sleep at night, you will understand true friendship and fellowship, and you will understand the need to place your trust in God not humans. I wish you the best.
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Post by sharonw on Jan 29, 2013 12:13:58 GMT -5
Friends in our meeting don't believe in reading internet sites about fellowship. We can talk all we want online, it will never reach them. More importantly, it won't reach the ones just starting out in this way, who are full of trust and not even dreaming that their trust could be misused. I for one never cared to look closely into websites about the way until this month. And I've been professing for 15 years. Internet is fine, and useful for finding out what's happening in other parts of the country and/or world, but why not also talk about these matters face to face with friends and workers? We are not an internet church, but a church that meets in homes, with real live people. I am talking with workers and friends, now that I know about the problem. Fear is not going to stop me, this issue is too important. Sharyl! You should talk with "What" a poster on TMB about his experience of being open about his disagreement of some of the major issues within the 2x2 fellowsip and how he eventually was just pushed out of the fellowship...lost privileges were first, etc I knew in myself AFTER I had spoken very honestly and openly with a particular overseer whom I have always been able to talk about most anything that ever came up...I trusted him...well when he wrote back that he understood that I had my convictions and he would not try to change my mind, BUT moreover I would not be able to change HIS mind. I realized when he said that, it was time for me to decide to leave for I had no desire to be putting him in the position of kicking me out of the fellowship...course rumors went out the first day that he'd asked me not to come to mtgs. anymore and that I had been telling juicy stories to the friends around me about things that should be left alone....I did neither of those things....I did try to talk with a couple of the elders about the beginning history of the 2x2 fellowship/workership...and waited until they had settled it in their minds about whether they could handle that fact or not...then I left. I got away from the most probable spiritual killing that would have been my fate....I suspe t the rumors were quite rabid for awhile...but I didn't know about them too much so I didn't get hurt that way. But may you stand firm in your request for truth and honesty and may the Lord enable you to withstand.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 12:31:46 GMT -5
Sharyl,
Along with others, I admire your convictions and zeal for what you believe "ought to be."
Wishing you all the best in your effort to be and grow where you believe yourself of service to that which is everlasting.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 29, 2013 13:30:04 GMT -5
We talked about all those things where I grew up. Well Scott- I see that you are 56 yrs old & I'm am 81, maybe that's the difference.
I just know that we simply never talked about any of those things.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 29, 2013 13:43:39 GMT -5
We talked about all those things where I grew up. I agree, we talked about all that and more. I would suggest that the above items were a family cultural trait or a local church trait, not a widely based church trait. We talked about church and faith things too when visitors and workers were around, but I think that was more of a family trait than a broadly based church trait. F&Ws commonly avoid faith discussion in most places. They will talk about it if engaged but it is rarely a spontaneous part of a conversation. I don't know your age, clearday, however I've had other people try to explain it away by saying it was a "family" trait with my family! But that simply isn't true. I've been in a home where like George Walker actually got his mail & I never even knew where the man of the family worked for a living! Still don't know!
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Post by faune on Jan 29, 2013 14:24:09 GMT -5
ckirkham said: As I was growing up, no one ever discussed issues of the doctrine out side of meetings. I didn't grow up in this, so things may have changed. Folks we know talk about all of the above, sometimes too much for my taste We talked a lot about doctrine as well for years because we were new and were trying to understand what they believe. We are probably professing because those we were in touch with were open to talking about everything under the sun. We knew about the beginnings of this way and even about some controversies from the early days even before we professed. It was quite shocking to find out that not everybody knew! Of course, that lack of transparency now paints a different picture of the fellowship from what I had. But I care about this fellowship, and that's why I am going to keep talking. sharyl, hang in there. Growing up, I was told a lot of family stories that outlined 2x2 abuse. My family had tried to help various folks, and found out a lot about the strange behavior of the 2x2s. Talking about this was difficult because my grandmother was branded as being a "Revealer of the Truth." My family was spiritually killed for three generations. As a result, anything we could have said/done was lost because the workers warned others to either stay away from us or be careful around us. The bad news is that speaking out can be detrimental to your family's socializing inside the meetings. The good news is that you will be able to sleep at night, you will understand true friendship and fellowship, and you will understand the need to place your trust in God not humans. I wish you the best. Quizzer ~I most heartedly agree with your assessment! In fact, I started a new human interest thread today which deals with this very topic of being true to yourself or authentic. It definitely helps you to sleep better at night when you're at peace with yourself, huh? professing.proboards.com/thread/20355/thine-own-self-true-important
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Post by faune on Jan 29, 2013 14:33:25 GMT -5
Friends in our meeting don't believe in reading internet sites about fellowship. We can talk all we want online, it will never reach them. More importantly, it won't reach the ones just starting out in this way, who are full of trust and not even dreaming that their trust could be misused. I for one never cared to look closely into websites about the way until this month. And I've been professing for 15 years. Internet is fine, and useful for finding out what's happening in other parts of the country and/or world, but why not also talk about these matters face to face with friends and workers? We are not an internet church, but a church that meets in homes, with real live people. I am talking with workers and friends, now that I know about the problem. Fear is not going to stop me, this issue is too important. Sharyl! You should talk with "What" a poster on TMB about his experience of being open about his disagreement of some of the major issues within the 2x2 fellowsip and how he eventually was just pushed out of the fellowship...lost privileges were first, etc I knew in myself AFTER I had spoken very honestly and openly with a particular overseer whom I have always been able to talk about most anything that ever came up...I trusted him...well when he wrote back that he understood that I had my convictions and he would not try to change my mind, BUT moreover I would not be able to change HIS mind. I realized when he said that, it was time for me to decide to leave for I had no desire to be putting him in the position of kicking me out of the fellowship...course rumors went out the first day that he'd asked me not to come to mtgs. anymore and that I had been telling juicy stories to the friends around me about things that should be left alone....I did neither of those things....I did try to talk with a couple of the elders about the beginning history of the 2x2 fellowship/workership...and waited until they had settled it in their minds about whether they could handle that fact or not...then I left. I got away from the most probable spiritual killing that would have been my fate....I suspe t the rumors were quite rabid for awhile...but I didn't know about them too much so I didn't get hurt that way. But may you stand firm in your request for truth and honesty and may the Lord enable you to withstand. Sharon ~ Honestly, your experience is not much different from a lot of folks I have known who have left the fold ~ some of whom were very well thought of and had meetings in their home until they started getting curious about why certain things are not addressed? I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't find quite a number right on this Board who have had that experience ~ including What? Being an open-minded person can get a number of friends banned or labeled within the fellowship for bringing up subjects that workers wish to keep under wraps or not address at all? Spiritual killings, as Quizzer brought to light, was just one way of keeping the lid on things?
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Post by Done4now on Jan 29, 2013 14:45:22 GMT -5
ckirkham said: As I was growing up, no one ever discussed issues of the doctrine out side of meetings.I didn't grow up in this, so things may have changed. Folks we know talk about all of the above, sometimes too much for my taste We talked a lot about doctrine as well for years because we were new and were trying to understand what they believe. We are probably professing because those we were in touch with were open to talking about everything under the sun. We knew about the beginnings of this way and even about some controversies from the early days even before we professed. It was quite shocking to find out that not everybody knew! Of course, that lack of transparency now paints a different picture of the fellowship from what I had. But I care about this fellowship, and that's why I am going to keep talking. I didn't say the quote you are attributing to me. Those are the words of dmmichgood, and the last thing I want is trouble with her! Please go back and fix your quote to properly reflect the original writer. Thanks.
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Post by quizzer on Jan 30, 2013 10:49:49 GMT -5
sharyl, hang in there. Growing up, I was told a lot of family stories that outlined 2x2 abuse. My family had tried to help various folks, and found out a lot about the strange behavior of the 2x2s. Talking about this was difficult because my grandmother was branded as being a "Revealer of the Truth." My family was spiritually killed for three generations. As a result, anything we could have said/done was lost because the workers warned others to either stay away from us or be careful around us. The bad news is that speaking out can be detrimental to your family's socializing inside the meetings. The good news is that you will be able to sleep at night, you will understand true friendship and fellowship, and you will understand the need to place your trust in God not humans. I wish you the best. Quizzer ~I most heartedly agree with your assessment! In fact, I started a new human interest thread today which deals with this very topic of being true to yourself or authentic. It definitely helps you to sleep better at night when you're at peace with yourself, huh? I'll have to check out the new thread! One thing that I've observed is that those who choose the workers over their conscience tend to develop a pattern where they feel they need to keep supporting the workers. They can't do without the workers - as if their whole world would collapse. It also seems to become difficult to be quiet and still, as if they're fighting off guilt or their conscience bothers them. It's just been a strange insight that I've had whenever I've met deeply entrenched 2x2s. I do feel sorry for them, and I can only pray that they can fight the needed battles with themselves to find true peace.
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Post by faune on Aug 23, 2013 16:02:19 GMT -5
Change the wording to "allegedly committed", and the number is probably no exaggeration. The number of alleged offenses is probably much greater than the number of offenses confessed, charged, or convicted. But alas, in the land down under it is still considered unacceptable to report worker crimes to the police. The Aussies fear losing their places in the work or attending meetings if they file a report. Scholargirl is right, this man has dozens of victims who he sexually violated as young girls. Many were under 10. Ugh, totally disgusting sick old man. He's the bloke in the second top line, far right. But there are other known sexual predators in that same photo, too. We know who many of the victims are. If one of them (only one!) had not gone to police, he would still be preaching and molesting young girls today. Because only one (1) victim had the guts to report him, he was able to escape gaol. If no other victim finds the courage, he will soon be reinstated and probably back preaching. Come on victims, show this creep he has not taken all your power. Stand up and show you're not afraid of them! Brissiegirl ~ Was this the senior worker under investigation now and for whom Steve S. got the royal boot out of the work for reporting to authorities? I just started reading over this thread again today to refresh my memory. If this worker has been abusing children for decades, it's truly sad if witnesses won't come forward and speak up? Don't they care about others who could also fall prey to this man's unsavory ways, or is their place within the fellowship more important to them? From the description of the misguided behavior of this senior worker in previous posts, he has really made his rounds ~ and I'm not talking about speaking engagements here? Incidentally, you can PM me with your answer, if you don't feel comfortable discussing it on TMB? However, I admire your courage to speak up, along with others who have done the same, and really want to see justice served for these victims of CSA. For sure, there are some "genuine friends" who truly care about the welfare of others within the fellowship and want to see this problem of CSA completely eradicated. The few who are not afraid to stand up and speak out against such injustice and who work to see this scourge of CSA removed from the fellowship are truly my heroes!
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Post by faune on Aug 23, 2013 16:24:02 GMT -5
sharyl, hang in there. Growing up, I was told a lot of family stories that outlined 2x2 abuse. My family had tried to help various folks, and found out a lot about the strange behavior of the 2x2s. Talking about this was difficult because my grandmother was branded as being a "Revealer of the Truth." My family was spiritually killed for three generations. As a result, anything we could have said/done was lost because the workers warned others to either stay away from us or be careful around us. The bad news is that speaking out can be detrimental to your family's socializing inside the meetings. The good news is that you will be able to sleep at night, you will understand true friendship and fellowship, and you will understand the need to place your trust in God not humans. I wish you the best. Quizzer ~I most heartedly agree with your assessment! In fact, I started a new human interest thread today which deals with this very topic of being true to yourself or authentic. It definitely helps you to sleep better at night when you're at peace with yourself, huh? Quizzer ~ What is really sad about this picture is that "concerned friends" get branded as "outcasts" simply because they care about being truthful and transparent? That's the saddest thing I have ever heard about and I'm sorry your Grandmother had to experience such treatment along with future generations due to being open and honest about their concerns. I hope things are changing for the better within the fellowship, but as long as this attitude remains in tact, they have a lot of work to do to avoid extinction, IMO?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 23, 2013 21:44:08 GMT -5
Dale Shulz doesn't have the letter "t" in his name. We Californians pronounce it with the 't' and have never looked at the spelling to see that isn't right~ In good German pronunciation one does not need a "t" to make it sound like a "tz".
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Post by faune on Aug 23, 2013 22:57:08 GMT -5
I am outraged that professing people would recommend the grapevine to get our information on which worker can be trusted or not. I am not part of a grapevine, as I have no professing family, and have not professed long enough to belong to a clique, nor do I care to. Who do I turn to? ? NathanB, I read all your posts with great interest and respect, but here I do not agree with you on the method. I would rather see open and constructive conversation about problems among friends and workers that includes everyone, and that leads to real solutions, rather than gossip in secret. If that is how things are solved in this way, I am greatly disappointed. Sharyl I think it is fair to say most of us here are (or have been) greatly disappointed in the way things are handled Open and constructive conversation could go a long way towards solving a lot of the problems, however we are dealing with a workership that maintains is has ultimate authority from God and cannot be questioned, when the process of time reveals wrong decisions were made they fall back on the excuse we are only human but the way is perfect. Once you have experienced the lack of honesty, justice, accountability and love that people experience from workers and see the lengths they go to to discredit or lie to cover up their mistakes you understand why the grapevine and TMB is used I am not saying all workers are like this but too many of them are not standing up for what they know is right, loyalty to the overseers takes precedence. If they all stood together with SS insisting on what is wright in Gods eyes not the overseers, we might have a chance, but unless they get the conviction and have the integrity to stand by it, we will continue to see the honest ones persecuted and coverups will continue Holymyhand ~ I most definitely agree with your synopsis of this merry-go-round with the fellowship. It's a shame the friends don't see the need to make their leaders accountable and to stand with those who do have integrity and seek to do the right thing. Fear seems to be a real motivating factor within the 2x2's and perhaps that's due to the misplaced mindset created by the workers that they are the only ones through which you can be saved. William Irvine saw the power behind this play in his "Living Witness Doctrine," and used it to his fullest to manipulate the people around him. Now the present day overseers employ the same tactics and the friends bow down without questioning for fear of excommunication. For sure, something is really off center in this picture! If outside churches hold its leaders accountable to certain guidelines and insist on integrity within the leadership, why not the 2x2's, since they make all these claims about being the "one and only way to salvation?"
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