Alleged offender attends Speed Convention

[mod5]

This from WINGS BTS......

It has been reported through to Wings through a reliable source that a Victorian brother worker (currently stood aside) was present at Speed Convention this year.

At this stage we are unclear as whether or not this alleged offended was allowed to stay on the grounds of the convention overnight. We are certain however that he attended this convention with the approval (and blessing) of the Victorian overseer.

[exVic]

This reports confirms my worst fears about the leadership of the friends and workers in Vic

[Angelina Mouse]

wondered when he would crawl out of the woodwork!!!!!! So he is allowed near little girls?? Lots of little kids at convention.

[sharonw]

Nov 24, 2012 5:26:54 GMT -5 @exVic said:

This reports confirms my worst fears about the leadership of the friends and workers in Vic

We had the same happening with one of the identified CSA perps which his known criminal activity was past the time of statue of limitations here in the Midwest of America. So yes, we are also confimed about the leadership of the F&W!

[Deleted]

Did the alleged offender attend as a worker or as a friend?

If the worker was a professional working with youth the accepted protocol in Victoria Australia would be for him/her to stand aside (on full pay) from their professional role whilst the matter is investigated. It appears this protocol is being observed.

No changes to a professionals private life would be expected whilst under investigation. It would seem to me to be a grey area as to whether attendance at a convention as a 'friend' is unreasonable. The implication, that any friend or worker subject to allegations should be effectively excommunicated is bordering on guilty until proven innocence. I would hope we have left those dark ages behind. Ultimately that will not promote the real outcome we are all seeking: the end of CSA.

I am not questioning the victim/s or the allegations or the reality that the f & w sect worldwide is making the same mess of CSA that most religous organisations have worldwide. Just a little disturbed by the lynch mob metality that seems common to Wings and this forum.

[Deleted]

Nov 28, 2012 4:32:19 GMT -5 @passerby said:

Did the alleged offender attend as a worker or as a friend?

If the worker was a professional working with youth the accepted protocol in Victoria Australia would be for him/her to stand aside (on full pay) from their professional role whilst the matter is investigated. It appears this protocol is being observed.

No changes to a professionals private life would be expected whilst under investigation. It would seem to me to be a grey area as to whether attendance at a convention as a 'friend' is unreasonable. The implication, that any friend or worker subject to allegations should be effectively excommunicated is bordering on guilty until proven innocence. I would hope we have left those dark ages behind. Ultimately that will not promote the real outcome we are all seeking: the end of CSA.

I am not questioning the victim/s or the allegations or the reality that the f & w sect worldwide is making the same mess of CSA that most religous organisations have worldwide. Just a little disturbed by the lynch mob metality that seems common to Wings and this forum.

Putting aside the lynch mob broad brushing for a moment and consider looking at it from a completely different angle. Ask yourself this:

What kind of a fool in his/her right mind would choose to hang around children or attend events with unsupervised young children (like convention) when he/she has been directly accused of CSA?

Here's another way to look at it. Did you know that nearly 100% of all accusations of this nature are true and the accused is guilty? (over 90%). Do you happily accept those risks with such a person roaming around a convention grounds when your daughter is off playing with her friends between meeting?

It's not a matter of lynching someone, it's a matter of protecting your children from known high risk situations.

[Deleted]

Here is yet another perspective on the "lynch mob mentality" concern in post #4.

Consider this:

Person A:
Has been accused of child molestation and is nearly 100% likely (over 90%) to be guilty.

Person B:
Has never been accused of child molestation and is nearly 100% not likely (about 98%) to have committed child molestation.

Should Person A and Person B have the same access to your child?

Now post #4 intimates that treating Person A differently from Person B is a "lynch mob mentality" (at least that's what I get from it because I have never heard of anyone advocating an actual lynching).

Here's another very real and very difficult problem. Many of the accused (and guilty) never get charged after an investigation. Why? Because the investigators were not able to obtain enough evidence to convict the accused in court. That means that yes, a large % of those accused and investigated are guilty. Do you still give you child unfettered access to such a person? The real problem is that we don't know the truth except that an alleged victim has accused someone of a terrible crime, maybe a few other circumstantial things. Should we lynch the accused? Well no, but should we restrict their access to our children? You bet!

[Deleted]

I am pretty sure the person mentioned in this thread is not an alleged offender, but has been convicted and sentenced in court.

[faune]

Nov 25, 2012 11:22:05 GMT -5 sharonw said:

Nov 24, 2012 5:26:54 GMT -5 @exVic said:

This reports confirms my worst fears about the leadership of the friends and workers in Vic

We had the same happening with one of the identified CSA perps which his known criminal activity was past the time of statue of limitations here in the Midwest of America. So yes, we are also confimed about the leadership of the F&W!

Sharon ~ I agree! Just because the pervert doesn't get caught or the statute of limitations is exceeded, doesn't mean he's a safe risk to have around our children, regardless how old he is now? I'm aware of the overseer you are talking about here and find it appaling that these people are allowed to go unchecked at convention. It just goes against all commonsense and sane judgment, IMHO? No parent would want their children exposed to such a perp' unknowingly on convention grounds, as these people are still dangerous and a liability regardless of their advancing years! Just because they didn't get caught earlier, doesn't exclude them from being banned around children, when their previous CSA actions are well known among the friends?

[Deleted]

Thanks for your replies Clearday.

100%? 90%? Interesting stat - source? In relationship to CSA and religous groups it wouldn't surprise me. Having said that there are allegations and there are allegations. There is a (dodgy) forum on the net in which a whole bunch of Victorian workers have been labelled: are we to assume 90% accuracy?

I used the lynch mob term to describe two commonalities with both sites: alleged offenders immediately become fools, perverts, something that crawls out of the woodwork and the vast majority of posters having absolutely no knowledge of any of the details of the alleged offences. This is exactly where and how lynch mobs start – ordinary people/parents, allegations of CSA, dehumanising the alleged perpetrator.

The logical interpretation of your posts Clearday is: nearly all allegations of CSA are true, an alleged perpetrator should not be allowed near children so under some form of house arrest and the justice system can never actually be trusted to judge someone innocent. Thats treat as guilty with no chance of ever being declared innocent. Lynch mob mentality.

In your ‘treating person A differently/same from person B’ comments: reread my post. I’m suggesting the protocols in the professional world in Victoria Australia would be for the alleged perpetrator to immediately stand aside from their professional role. That is, or should be, their access point to your child.

Hence my question, how did the alleged offender attend convention? Did they sit/eat/congregate with the workers? Did they slip in and out quietly or stand around after the meeting shaking hands and being treated as if a worker by friends? If the latter, then perhaps it might be viewed as a foolish or thoughtless decision. If the former, well if I was still in the group I would immediately leave and advocate all friends to do likewise.

Convention is a public place. Children should not be left unsupervised in a public place. The friends, like a lot of sheltered religious groups, are too trusting. You will never be able to be sure that the workers (or other friends or anyone) are ‘safe’. Assume they aren’t, supervise and teach your children appropriately.

What is the attitude/policy amongst the friends towards convicted paedophiles? Are they no longer welcome in any form or guise? Are and should they be offered any form of support? Dealing appropriately with CSA means dealing with perpetrators as well as victims.

Cat amongst the pigeons stuff but this is not a black and white area. When our children are threatened a mist does seem to descend upon our vision however.

[Deleted]

apologies. I made a mess of differentiating between the alleged perpetuator attending convention in a way that showed recognition of their status or in a way that redefined them as a worker.
In regards to supporting perpetrators, if people are not familiar I recommend a little research reading of the links between being a childhood victim and becoming an adult perpetrator.

[Deleted]

Nov 28, 2012 18:59:04 GMT -5 @passerby said:

Thanks for your replies Clearday.

100%? 90%? Interesting stat - source? In relationship to CSA and religous groups it wouldn't surprise me.

These are common stats. They vary a few points here and there depending on the nature of the study, but prove out to be true within a close range over and over. I would invite you to cast around on Google and see for yourself, picking out studies at random. For starters though, just have a look at this Wiki site on false accusations which offers multiple studies that back up this statement:

"Studies of child abuse allegations suggest that the overall rate of false accusation is under 10%, as approximated based on multiple studies."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_allegation_of_child_sexual_abuse

Furthermore, I think you will find that the stats for religious groups a bit higher than society in general, at least historically. Many church groups have taken action to protect children and prevent abuses (including removing non-convicted clergy from their posts).

Having said that there are allegations and there are allegations. There is a (dodgy) forum on the net in which a whole bunch of Victorian workers have been labelled: are we to assume 90% accuracy?

There is a difference between labeling (from any source including rumour) and accusation from a primary source. If a primary source has accused a Victorian worker of CSA, then there is a greater than 90% likelihood that the accused is guilty. Sounds ugly, but it is quite reliable given the fact that this issue has been studied so much.

If you are truly interested in the known facts about the Vic workers, there are some excellent Vic people around who could fill you in.......if you have a genuine interest in this.

I used the lynch mob term to describe two commonalities with both sites: alleged offenders immediately become fools, perverts, something that crawls out of the woodwork and the vast majority of posters having absolutely no knowledge of any of the details of the alleged offences. This is exactly where and how lynch mobs start – ordinary people/parents, allegations of CSA, dehumanising the alleged perpetrator.

I'm well aware of the metaphorical lynch mobs.....I have been subject to one once myself (the hanging did not occur) and have faced a couple of them on behalf of others (the hanging did occur in spite of my best efforts).

The logical interpretation of your posts Clearday is: nearly all allegations of CSA are true,

Yes

an alleged perpetrator should not be allowed near children so under some form of house arrest

I don't know what you mean about house arrest but I would advise that an alleged perp should not have access to children. Should such a time as it is proven that it is a false accusation, that situation can change.

and the justice system can never actually be trusted to judge someone innocent.

The justice system does not judge anyone innocent. That's a basic fundamental of our justice system.

Thats treat as guilty with no chance of ever being declared innocent. Lynch mob mentality.

Individuals do not judge others on a criminal basis, nor do they have the power to apply punishment that the penal system has the power to do.

It's very simple. If someone has been accused by a primary source, make sure your kids are safe from them.

In your ‘treating person A differently/same from person B’ comments: reread my post. I’m suggesting the protocols in the professional world in Victoria Australia would be for the alleged perpetrator to immediately stand aside from their professional role. That is, or should be, their access point to your child.

I don't quite understand what you are getting at here.

Hence my question, how did the alleged offender attend convention? Did they sit/eat/congregate with the workers? Did they slip in and out quietly or stand around after the meeting shaking hands and being treated as if a worker by friends? If the latter, then perhaps it might be viewed as a foolish or thoughtless decision. If the former, well if I was still in the group I would immediately leave and advocate all friends to do likewise.

I don't know anything about this particular case as yet so you might want to ask those questions of the Vic people here. My comments have been on general principles without this particular alleged offender in mind.

Convention is a public place.

Actually, convention is considered a private gathering by most North American overseers. Gospel meetings are public.

Children should not be left unsupervised in a public place.

Parents should have full control of their children where ever they are. Most CSA offenses occur right in the home.

The friends, like a lot of sheltered religious groups, are too trusting.

Very true. Hopefully forums like this and WINGS are helping to make people more realistic as to the risks out there.

You will never be able to be sure that the workers (or other friends or anyone) are ‘safe’. Assume they aren’t, supervise and teach your children appropriately.

Good advice.

What is the attitude/policy amongst the friends towards convicted paedophiles?

It varies.

Are they no longer welcome in any form or guise?

Some are, some aren't. Again, it varies.

Are and should they be offered any form of support?

Any self respecting Christian group will try to help an offender. Our group? Generally not but there have been cases. I know a worker who has worked countless hours with offenders...including to the opposition of fellow workers and overseers.

Dealing appropriately with CSA means dealing with perpetrators as well as victims.

Absolutely.

Cat amongst the pigeons stuff but this is not a black and white area.

It is black and white sometimes. However, it is always about risk management which does take some skill when the facts are not completely certain.

When our children are threatened a mist does seem to descend upon our vision however.

There is something good about that though. A parent who is lackadaisical about the safety of their children is an exceptionally poor parent. High alert and high focus when children are threatened is the natural role of parents.

[mod5]

Nov 28, 2012 14:48:26 GMT -5 @redback said:

I am pretty sure the person mentioned in this thread is not an alleged offender, but has been convicted and sentenced in court.

This is not my understanding redback. The alleged offender is not the one who has been convicted of CSA and sentenced.

This particular individual was a worker who has been stood down and is being investigated by the Police for CSA. It is understood that no charges have been laid at this point in time.

[Deleted]

Thanks mod5 for correcting me about that. The information does come as a surprise, as that person is supposed to be out of favour with the Victorian overseer. Maybe there is some politics being played out.

[Deleted]

Clearday, thanks again for your response.
We could clarify out viewpoints further but I don't see anything to gain by that.

[Deleted]

Nov 28, 2012 21:39:49 GMT -5 @passerby said:

Clearday, thanks again for your response.
We could clarify out viewpoints further but I don't see anything to gain by that.

You're probably right, these discussions can get a bit too deep into minutiae sometimes anyway.

I will make one final comment though. I would suggest that if you happen to take the time to get to know those whom I think you include in the "lynch mob mentality" in Vic you may be pleasantly surprised that there are a lot of thoughtful, calm, measured and fair people who are focused on this issue.

[Angelinas friend]

Thanks Clearday. Very sensible helpful person you are.
Passerby - You obviously have never had a daughter or granddaughter abused by a worker or other mtg person. No we wouldnt lynch these people. "Thou shalt not kill". The treatment would be emasculation. Maybe just a different type of "lynch" mob. Some very decent people here, but very hurt and angry!!!!!!!!!

[rational]

Nov 28, 2012 9:54:37 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Here is yet another perspective on the "lynch mob mentality" concern in post #4.

Consider this:

Person A:
Has been accused of child molestation and is nearly 100% likely (over 90%) to be guilty.

Person B:
Has never been accused of child molestation and is nearly 100% not likely (about 98%) to have committed child molestation.

Person A has been accused and the consensus is that the accusation is accurate.

Person B has not been accused. All people guilty of CSA were at one time not accused. How is it determined that there is a 98% chance that this person is not an undetected child abuser?

If, person B has not yet been accused then giving them more access to your child is just sticking your head in the sand. Person B could become Person A with your child being the victim.

Should Person A and Person B have the same access to your child?

Yes. And the amount of access for B should be set by the access you would give to A.

Now post #4 intimates that treating Person A differently from Person B is a "lynch mob mentality" (at least that's what I get from it because I have never heard of anyone advocating an actual lynching).

I disagree with the 'witch hunt" mentality but since there is no very certain way to detect a child abuser before they abuse, not treating B as a potential abuser is an error in judgement.

Here's another very real and very difficult problem. Many of the accused (and guilty) never get charged after an investigation. Why? Because the investigators were not able to obtain enough evidence to convict the accused in court. That means that yes, a large % of those accused and investigated are guilty. Do you still give you child unfettered access to such a person? The real problem is that we don't know the truth except that an alleged victim has accused someone of a terrible crime, maybe a few other circumstantial things. Should we lynch the accused? Well no, but should we restrict their access to our children? You bet!

You are ignoring the fact that there are also many molesters that have not been accused and they should not have any more access to children than those who have been accused.

[Deleted]

Did hear that Speed Con. is closing, obviously not because of the visit by the person mentioned in this thread. We went to the first Speed Con. more than 50 years ago, always very hot there. Maybe Father Time has caught up with Speed.

[Deleted]

Nov 28, 2012 23:00:55 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Nov 28, 2012 21:39:49 GMT -5 @passerby said:

Clearday, thanks again for your response.
We could clarify out viewpoints further but I don't see anything to gain by that.

You're probably right, these discussions can get a bit too deep into minutiae sometimes anyway.

I will make one final comment though. I would suggest that if you happen to take the time to get to know those whom I think you include in the "lynch mob mentality" in Vic you may be pleasantly surprised that there are a lot of thoughtful, calm, measured and fair people who are focused on this issue.

I suspect I probably know most of the people involved Clearday and am sure your assessment of them is correct. I have the utmost respect for the majority of the friends in Victoria and ditto for most of the workers from that region.

I also suspect I have a far greater understanding of the trauma and resultant anger involved with CSA than readers might interpret from my post. I believe people have a right to their anger and grief, which includes the right to express it. I also believe that actions or understandings born of anger are rarely 'right'. I've yet to reconcile those two beliefs.

[SH]

Dec 3, 2012 20:39:49 GMT -5 @redback said:

Did hear that Speed Con. is closing, obviously not because of the visit by the person mentioned in this thread. We went to the first Speed Con. more than 50 years ago, always very hot there. Maybe Father Time has caught up with Speed.

I used to attend the Speed conventions in those early day. The Linklaters were a wonderful couple. Anyone know if they are still alive and where they are if so?

[Santas Helper]

Hey I remember in 2007 - 2007 I attended TAS Convention at Relbia, and there was a man there that had been convicted of assaulting young youth, and who had been jailed. He sat watching young children play. The question was asked : Who allowed this man to attend convention, even though he had been convicted and jailed? It was all hushed up and he continued to attend convention.

[Interested in this]

Yes, Tasmania is a breeding ground for those sort of people.
There are a lot of them over there....
The reasoning behind inviting them back to convention is because numbers are dwindling and forgiveness is always possible..
Please!!

[coverup]

Dec 29, 2012 1:44:48 GMT -5 @Santas Helper said:

Hey I remember in 2007 - 2007 I attended TAS Convention at Relbia, and there was a man there that had been convicted of assaulting young youth, and who had been jailed. He sat watching young children play. The question was asked : Who allowed this man to attend convention, even though he had been convicted and jailed? It was all hushed up and he continued to attend convention.

Does this man still attend TAS convention?

I understand that this convention is about to start and if this man is there people need to take extra care with their children.

Why don't the workers care more about protecting our children from predators?

Is anybody on TMB attending this convention this year?

[Deleted]

Dec 29, 2012 2:46:54 GMT -5 @Interested in this said:

Yes Tasmania is a breeding ground for those sort of people.
There are a lot of them over there....
The reasoning behind inviting them back to convention is because numbers are dwindling and forgiveness is always possible..
Please!!

Goes alongside the two heads does it?

Personally I really don't understand why anyone would want to attend convention if you are genuinely concerned about the risk to your children. IMO being a member of the friends and workers group and raising your children in that culture increases the risk of CSA (from within and without) far more than simply being a Tasmanian.

At the same time linking concern with dumb statements like the above does little for credibility or your chances of educating/changing the mindset of the workers or rank and file of the group. Gives me, a long time ex, the impression this is more about an anti-worker grievance than genuine intention to reduce the risk of CSA for members of the friends and workers group.

[magpie]

Time has past since these postings were placed. But still be aware,protect your little children and teens. Vultures are nesting, it appears, in all unbiblical unatural celibate demanded ministries. 1 Timothy 4_---2 such teachings come through hypocritical liars,whose consciences have been seared by a hot iron..3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods,which God created to be recieved with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth---------because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
1 Corinthians Ch 9,Vse 5/6.. Dont I have the right to follow the example of the other Apostles and the Lords Brothers and Peter (Cephas),by taking a Christian wife with me on my trips? OR are Barnabas and I the only ones who have to work for a living?
Also from the cross Jesus commanded John to take His mother to his (John's) home. Also Peters ma-in- law was at his (Peters) home. Scripture we never heard from a convention or preacher meetings? WONDER WHY? But please protect your little ones. (In our decades we were forced to silence lived in fear,silence of jailable brother/sister preachers crimes against us kids).Ernie Barry avoided facing 12 more known victims accounts,by the hands of the State Bishop,David Leitch "WHY?"..So do be careful, what they are hiding/protecting/keeping away from everyone, is not Godly Gospel or Godly Compassion for the "victims" of these sick deviant crimes of those unstabley mentally disordered pedophiles.Sadly the Vultures will be a bit more illusive around vulnerable prey,as people think kids are safe,cunning is the word they act under,those supposed lovely Godly ones,hiding their sharp tallons..

[Deleted]

I have heard of a similar thing happening at Milford NH convention in August for the past few years.

[magpie1]

This person recieved SIX months Jail.and now 2018 public knowledge "Chris Chandler".