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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2012 16:38:53 GMT -5
"He isn't allowed to re-profess"
Well he can make a 'fresh start' after he does A, B & C (conditions set down by leadership). Then when he complies, the goalposts move and he has to do X, Y & Z. Oh and he's not repentant enough..... And he hasn't confessed to the false accusations..... And so it goes on. Does this sound like what Jesus would have said???
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Post by emerald on Nov 6, 2012 19:26:58 GMT -5
I haven't heard of any people leaving on account of NN's situation, not since the fuss about 5yrs ago when a family left? I also heard that he was at convention in Norway (or maybe Sweden) this year and took part at special meetings in Dublin 2011. I know that was unorthodox but my impression was people find him rather pitiful but aren't too concerned one way or another whether he is in the meetings or not but I doubt if many would find a return to the work for him, acceptable.
There's not much in the way (in these parts when anyone has the interest to discuss him!) of false accusations as was earlier reported here on TMB but there is an acceptance with plenty confirming it, that his behaviour amongst the friends was divisive and some would say he's simply a troublemaker. I have seen peculiar behaviour from him in the past so find these accusations unsensational.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2012 18:10:14 GMT -5
" the fuss about 5yrs ago when a family left" What was that about? Did it have anything to do with NN?
"people aren't too concerned one way or another" Yes, you're right.......unfortunately.
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Post by bluebird on Nov 8, 2012 8:54:56 GMT -5
emerald,
Glad we have you on here, evidently very well connected and therefore able to enlighten us on how the majority of the Irish see things.
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" - alive and well among the Irish friends? Also "thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"?
Touching that you (or your good friends) have pity. Maybe in time it will go even further and you will be "moved with compassion" to do something?
By the way do you have any opinion of your own about the situation or is it just your "impression" of how your many contacts/sources find him and feel about the situation? Did you find him divisive or is this just what others have told you? Care to get a bit more specific about the divisive behaviour? Claiming that what you have written is only what other people have told you is a convenient way of avoiding taking responsibility for it, kind of like "don't shoot the messenger, I'm only passing on what I heard".
Glad you do have some first hand information. Would you be willing to share what this peculiar behaviour was?
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Post by emerald on Nov 13, 2012 10:08:20 GMT -5
I've been rather vocal in the past about NN's peculiar behaviour so would rather not mention it here for the sake of anonymity (if it's still possible!). As for me taking him on as a pet project to be seen to be doing something, logistically it would be difficult. He lives a long way away from me. The other thing is, it's difficult to know just how he'd want to be "dealt with" as he refers (again, so I've been told) to the meetings as a cult. He might be glad to be shot of us all.
I'm assuming you are an apologist for NN, given the tone of your post? Do you know what NN wants as far as membership or privileges go? It's something that neither I nor my friends have ever heard being talked about. That's probably a failure in itself too.
Edit: To correct spelling
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Post by bluebird on Nov 13, 2012 12:03:37 GMT -5
It's unfortunate you can't get down to specifics, without it we can't have much of a productive dialogue. If you are going to spread smoke you should be willing to show us the fire.
Again you seem to be going entirely on the rumour mill, which I've found to be rather unreliable. Your post suggests you don't know him very well at all, at least not in recent times.
I'd prefer to consider myself an apologist for truth and justice. Even if I wanted to be an apologist for NN it would be rather difficult because tangible specific accusations don't seem to exist.
As far as what NN wants, I can't speak for him. However I see the problem as having a very simple cause: NN was excommunicated secretly, for reasons unknown, with all sorts of reasons being created since via the rumour mill, which is completely contrary to Matthew 18. So we could go back to the start and get him and his accusers together and follow the protocol Jesus instructed.
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Post by emerald on Nov 13, 2012 19:21:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure many in the meetings could claim to know NN well. He's spent many years in S America and apart from the few years in the work in Ireland after he returned home, he's not been in circulation much since. I refuse to get into specifics here as it's a public forum and to give chapter and verse of what I've been told would mean naming sources as you are not satisfied with second hand information.
I have often said (and maybe here on TMB too for all I know) that the reasons for NN's axeing should have been made public for no other purpose only prevent gossip and speculation.
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Post by emerald on Nov 15, 2012 16:58:19 GMT -5
Back to your reply no. 6, bluebird.
I know of one family that tried to follow Matt 18 and got nowhere, only the meeting taken out of their home. (Imelda, that was the fuss I mentioned earlier.) Letters were written, the elder in the meeting spoken to, NN spoken to directly, other workers etc. but all in vain.
And that's not spreading smoke. It was widely talked about at the time. It would take very little digging to find out which family I'm talking about.
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Post by emerald on Jan 7, 2013 11:32:58 GMT -5
To bluebird and maninthemirror, I am quite open to having my gossip corrected by you both. A quick scan of what I've said amounts to:
NN at convention in Norway/Sweden (wasn't sure which country but have since been told it was Denmark). Not gossip, fact. (The interesting thing is not the country anyway, it's that he was invited by another head worker.)
Took part in special meetings. Fact.
Family left because of his inappropriate behaviour. Fact.
I refuse to name sources therefore will not provide evidence of NN's claim that the meetings are a cult; will not provide evidence that NN's behaviour when in the work in Ireland in recent years was divisive; will not provide evidence that a fair proportion of my friends and acquaintances find NN pitiful and are mostly disinterested in his antics. The remainder just think he's nuts. (Their word, not mine.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2013 18:23:03 GMT -5
Once an influential and wealthy friend, now deceased, who entered my late wife's bedroom in his home with his wife upstairs in their bedroom and told her outright what he wanted to do to her. She left the house the next day after getting him to give up. Unknown to me, I suggested she return to that home when she came over to the USA again to escape a situation in her home country.
When that fellow learned she was not returning to see him, but to begin a new life in the USA and with me intending to court her, he went to an out of state worker and told him I was insane. That was spread world wide, even to her parents. When she found out what was being said she related to her parents the truth of the matter and things eventually quieted down. Naturally I am quite leery of such an anonymous "insane" accusation. Now many are deceased who got involved and spread that lie which took years to die out.
However, one lie leads to another, and soon more lies were to follow, again believed because workers said they were true. Truly 2&2ism shoots its own wounded, and workers load the weapons and pull the triggers. Never a retraction, never an apology, constant innuendos and partial truths to support the fiction. Even though decades have passed, I still feel the heart ache of that which was enforced worldwide almost to the point of being impossible to endure, though now I am thankful to have finally learned where the error existed in the deceptions promoted by the 2&2 ministry for years.
Whether this WinQ is guilty or not, I have no idea, however from experience my heart goes out to the person, and wish I could befriend one who cannot help but be in anguish over such as has been posted here. Should that one be reading here, know there are many of us who have endured the same type of spiritual killing.
Sincerely,
Dennis
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Post by bluebird on Jan 23, 2013 20:27:34 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing Dennis.
I don't believe most in Ireland think WinQ is nuts, rather I suspect Emerald has a personal ax to grind.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 23, 2013 23:12:49 GMT -5
Once an influential and wealthy friend, now deceased, who entered my late wife's bedroom in his home with his wife upstairs in their bedroom and told her outright what he wanted to do to her. She left the house the next day after getting him to give up. Unknown to me, I suggested she return to that home when she came over to the USA again to escape a situation in her home country. When that fellow learned she was not returning to see him, but to begin a new life in the USA and with me intending to court her, he went to an out of state worker and told him I was insane. That was spread world wide, even to her parents. When she found out what was being said she related to her parents the truth of the matter and things eventually quieted down. Naturally I am quite leery of such an anonymous "insane" accusation. Now many are deceased who got involved and spread that lie which took years to die out. However, one lie leads to another, and soon more lies were to follow, again believed because workers said they were true. Truly 2&2ism shoots its own wounded, and workers load the weapons and pull the triggers. Never a retraction, never an apology, constant innuendos and partial truths to support the fiction. Even though decades have passed, I still feel the heart ache of that which was enforced worldwide almost to the point of being impossible to endure, though now I am thankful to have finally learned where the error existed in the deceptions promoted by the 2&2 ministry for years. Whether this WinQ is guilty or not, I have no idea, however from experience my heart goes out to the person, and wish I could befriend one who cannot help but be in anguish over such as has been posted here. Should that one be reading here, know there are many of us who have endured the same type of spiritual killing. Sincerely, Dennis Thank you, Dennis, for posting what must still be very painful for you.
When I see the painful experiences that others have suffered I feel my own experience is really nothing by comparison, much like a "poot" in a whirl wind.
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Post by emerald on Jan 24, 2013 16:06:56 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing Dennis. I don't believe most in Ireland think WinQ is nuts, rather I suspect Emerald has a personal ax to grind. Since you claim I cannot know the man very well, it seems a bit of a stretch to say I have an ax to grind, or indeed if it comes down to it, an axe.
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Post by emerald on Jan 24, 2013 16:13:09 GMT -5
Once an influential and wealthy friend, now deceased, who entered my late wife's bedroom in his home with his wife upstairs in their bedroom and told her outright what he wanted to do to her. She left the house the next day after getting him to give up. Unknown to me, I suggested she return to that home when she came over to the USA again to escape a situation in her home country. When that fellow learned she was not returning to see him, but to begin a new life in the USA and with me intending to court her, he went to an out of state worker and told him I was insane. That was spread world wide, even to her parents. When she found out what was being said she related to her parents the truth of the matter and things eventually quieted down. Naturally I am quite leery of such an anonymous "insane" accusation. Now many are deceased who got involved and spread that lie which took years to die out. However, one lie leads to another, and soon more lies were to follow, again believed because workers said they were true. Truly 2&2ism shoots its own wounded, and workers load the weapons and pull the triggers. Never a retraction, never an apology, constant innuendos and partial truths to support the fiction. Even though decades have passed, I still feel the heart ache of that which was enforced worldwide almost to the point of being impossible to endure, though now I am thankful to have finally learned where the error existed in the deceptions promoted by the 2&2 ministry for years. Whether this WinQ is guilty or not, I have no idea, however from experience my heart goes out to the person, and wish I could befriend one who cannot help but be in anguish over such as has been posted here. Should that one be reading here, know there are many of us who have endured the same type of spiritual killing. Sincerely, Dennis The problem is, WinQ was put out of the work without an explanation to the friends or apparently, other workers. Where there is an absence of information, rumour and gossip fill the void. TG has made a mistake in removing the man without explanation. That said, I respect TG's decision to remove him - peace and harmony in the Kingdom is to be prized.
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Post by bluebird on Jan 24, 2013 16:42:26 GMT -5
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Post by bluebird on Jan 24, 2013 16:45:49 GMT -5
That said, I respect TG's decision to remove him - peace and harmony in the Kingdom is to be prized. what Jesus did not bring: Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. what he did bring: John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
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Post by emerald on Jan 24, 2013 18:50:51 GMT -5
Whatever. For one thing, not being American I don't use American spellings. For another, I prefer peace and harmony amongst our people. That's why I support TG's decision, whatever his reasons may have been.
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Post by emerald on Jan 24, 2013 18:55:47 GMT -5
Anyway, back to the OP. Can maninthemirror provide credible statistics to support his claim that there is a falling away? Can he provide evidence of a direct link to the ex-ing of NN to these people that have left? Since NN returned to Ireland, I know of only one family that left the meetings owing to NN and it wasn't because NN was ex-ed.
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Post by bluebird on Jan 24, 2013 19:23:34 GMT -5
What's the story regarding this family that left because of NN? Seems odd a whole family would leave just because of one worker. Why haven't they returned now that NN is out?
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 25, 2013 5:36:51 GMT -5
Whatever. For one thing, not being American I don't use American spellings. For another, I prefer peace and harmony amongst our people. That's why I support TG's decision, whatever his reasons may have been. Blind allegiance?
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Post by emerald on Jan 25, 2013 8:37:35 GMT -5
Whatever. For one thing, not being American I don't use American spellings. For another, I prefer peace and harmony amongst our people. That's why I support TG's decision, whatever his reasons may have been. Blind allegiance? Not blind. Just a peace-lover! I see many problems but it's amazing what rosy-tinted specs can do. ;D
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Post by emerald on Jan 25, 2013 8:48:27 GMT -5
What's the story regarding this family that left because of NN? Seems odd a whole family would leave just because of one worker. Why haven't they returned now that NN is out? I don't remember the fine detail as it's a while ago but with your obvious affinity with NN, it might be an interesting exercise for you to ask him what happened. I'm sure his story will be in every way the same as the family told at the time.
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Post by bluebird on Jan 25, 2013 12:12:42 GMT -5
I refuse to get into specifics wasn't sure which country I refuse to name sources therefore will not provide evidence will not provide evidence will not provide evidence I don't remember the fine detail as it's a while ago A picture emerges.
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Post by emerald on Jan 25, 2013 14:55:12 GMT -5
Ha ha ha! You're seeing more than I'm seeing. You wouldn't happen to be making something out of nothing would you?
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Post by emerald on Jan 31, 2013 7:21:37 GMT -5
Allens haven't left. Check your sources. And why are you sniping at me? You were quite happy to send gossipy (and inaccurate) PMs to me a few months ago. What changed?
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Post by bluebird on Jan 31, 2013 16:40:38 GMT -5
I agree the removal of NN - prevented a bigger division. He did'nt like TG or any authority I believe and stood accused of some form of abuse which subsequently came to light. What was the form of abuse and who was the victim(s)? Until you provide this information this is yet again a smear that is completely unsubstantiated. Am I not correct to say this is libel and you could be sued for it? If NN was so inclined?
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Post by emerald on Jan 31, 2013 18:12:40 GMT -5
I agree the removal of NN - prevented a bigger division. He did'nt like TG or any authority I believe and stood accused of some form of abuse which subsequently came to light. What was the form of abuse and who was the victim(s)? Until you provide this information this is yet again a smear that is completely unsubstantiated. Am I not correct to say this is libel and you could be sued for it? If NN was so inclined? I think if you re-read, mitm said "I believe". It wasn't a statement of fact. You can put your cheque book away. ;D As I've said before, posters are hardly likely to reveal names of victims or sources of information. It could compromise their anonymity and cause upset for alleged victims. There are just some things that cannot be shared on public message boards.
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Post by bluebird on Feb 1, 2013 2:57:38 GMT -5
I think if you re-read, mitm said "I believe". It wasn't a statement of fact. You can put your cheque book away. ;D You are completely incorrect. This is basic grammar. We can go through it: there are two parts to mitm's sentence, separated by "and". The first part is "He did'nt like TG or any authority I believe". The second part is "(he) stood accused of some form of abuse which subsequently came to light" The "I believe" does not refer to the second part. And even if it did, simply adding "I believe" does not make it any less libelous. As I've said before, posters are hardly likely to reveal names of victims or sources of information. It could compromise their anonymity and cause upset for alleged victims. There are just some things that cannot be shared on public message boards. Regarding your second statement, if posters can't stand over their accusations, they shouldn't make them in the first place.
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