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Post by ts on Oct 4, 2012 13:03:01 GMT -5
Here is a link to a sermon by LeRoy Lerwick, overseer of Ecuador. He went to South Africa this year and preached the following sermon. I have heard this theme before among workers who cover up abuses. Johan Kotze, overseer of South Africa, liked to quote what Graham Snow speaks about the "scapegoat". He said the sins of ALL the people are laid on the head of the scapegoat. The scapegoat is then sent out into the wilderness. If anyone were to bring the scapegoat back into the camp(no scripture about bringing it back into the camp...but we'll go with it) by bringing up another person's sin, they are not only bringing the other person's sin into the camp but THEIR OWN!!! I was told that sermon and then Johan Kotze proceeded to tell me I was sinful for trying to get a sexual predator out of the work. He knew that what I was saying was true about him but he said, "I believe God can restore ALL things." Meaning that Johan Marais would continue in the work...and that he did...until revelations of CSA came about. A very popular sermon. "Don't cast the first stone", "You are just as guilty, so don't bring up my sin." etc These sermons favour the predators and further victimize the victims with more guilt. www.trutharchive.net/leroy-lerwick---our-lot-in-life---cape-town-convention---2012
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Post by ts on Oct 4, 2012 13:14:56 GMT -5
Here is a "gem" from the sermon. I have heard this one before.
"The next time that he had an encounter, Saul was asleep and Abner and all his men. They were to protect him but they were all asleep. So David goes down and takes his water cruse and his spear and calls to Abner. "Abner, you are supposed to be protecting the king, you are guilty of death. You should be more diligent, it's your job." Then David said to the king ,"I pray thee, hear the words of your servant. If the Lord has stirred thee up against me, let Him accept an offering." Now this is David and he is speaking to a man that wants to kill him. He has the attitude, "Is it I?" Maybe I am to blame and I am willing to make a sacrifice to make it right. That is the spirit of a true child of God. "Lord, is it I?" No, it wasn't, but he asked the question and he was willing to make a sacrifice to make it right. The effect on Saul was that he said, "I have sinned." Those are good instructions. We like to try to help people. Sometimes we think we need them to know that they are sinners and point out their sins to them, but that is not the way. That's not the way for us to work. It is not the way for you with your family and children, but to manifest the righteousness. Love your enemy even if you're not the guilty one. Are you willing to take the blame? Is it I? That is what will speak and get the response, "You are more righteous than I." Then the spirit can convict of sin. Here is a man who was willing to take the blame, and there was the man who took the blame for us and that was Jesus. He took upon Himself the sins of all the world and that is why we can have fellowship with God. That's why we can have fellowship with one another."
This sermon applies to the friends and the abused...NOT THE WORKERS. I brought this up when Jerome was hiring lawyers, going to court and even questioning in court that he was even minister and mandated reporter...RATHER THAN JUST TAKE THE BLAME for not doing the right thing. Even if he thought he was right, he could have taken the blame for the sake of the victim.
The workers could have taken the blame for keeping Ira Hobbs all those years in the work and making him overseer even though he was a child molester. Whether they knew about it or not, they could have taken the blame and made restitution with Ira's victims.
There are so many instances where the workers could heal a LOT of wounds if they would just take the blame. But they do not preach the above sermon to the workers. They preach it to the abused. Therefore, that makes the abused guilty in their eyes for not being forgiving. They heap more guilt and abuse on the victims than on the workers who are guilty but have (supposedly) repented, yet continue to victimize others.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Oct 4, 2012 16:00:16 GMT -5
There are so many instances where the workers could heal a LOT of wounds if they would just take the blame. But they do not preach the above sermon to the workers. They preach it to the abused. Therefore, that makes the abused guilty in their eyes for not being forgiving. They heap more guilt and abuse on the victims than on the workers who are guilty but have (supposedly) repented, yet continue to victimize others. ts, I think it is beneficial to look to David's later example as well for instruction. At this point in his "career," he was still not in power, while Saul was the one in power, and I do appreciate David's words and actions. But I also appreciate his later interactions as well, when he was in power. We can think of the specific times he sinned against God, and then his subsequent willingness to "face the music" when his sin was pointed out. To me, his willingness to listen to advice or a rebuke from someone - over whom he had the power of life and death - is even more meaningful than if he had just realized his sin on his own and quietly repented. It shows a real humility, doesn't it? If I read correctly, this is related to what you are driving at - a willingness to open oneself, to listen, to be willing to feel vulnerable . . . admirable qualities in anyone, but particularly in a powerful leader, and perhaps even more so in one whom people look to as anointed of God. Just trying to expand the analysis and discussion a bit further . . .
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Post by JO on Oct 4, 2012 16:56:28 GMT -5
Has the ministry ever admitted to being wrong about anything?
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Oct 4, 2012 17:20:19 GMT -5
Has the ministry ever admitted to being wrong about anything? I believe that individual workers can, to varying degrees, but it is difficult to see the edifice of "the ministry" as being in the wrong in any particular point, and this tends to limit the ability of individuals to do so as well. I see it as tied into so many other doctrinal ideas regarding the place of the ministry that it becomes difficult to "see the way out." I still value some aspects of the work/ministry, and feel that it is just as critical for we "exes" to not view "the ministry" as a monolith as it is for those in the fellowship to not view it as something that cannot be addressed. Lots of slow, patient, communication is required in the disentangling of any situation . . .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2012 18:37:10 GMT -5
After all, once upon a time I believed the ministry to be infallible and thus any issues I had with the workers were MY FAULT. So I closed my eyes to any error in teaching or practice. I know lots of nice workers out there but the friends elevate the ministry as a whole above and beyond what is right and legit. We should treat all people in a nice manner,that said, worshipping a group of people and allowing abuse from the group isn't a good thing.
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Post by ts on Oct 4, 2012 19:41:29 GMT -5
Here is a sermon that I dare say not one worker would see anything wrong with.
They are putting burdens on people that they themselves will not bear.
Are the overseers writing LW urging him just to take the blame? IH did not take responsibility for what he did, did they urge him to take the blame? Jerome ...did they urge him to take the blame or did they pay his court and lawyer costs?
Sermons like this are really empty. Let's see where the workers have been examples of taking the blame and then making it right.
Have the workers gone back to the friends in Alberta and apologized and then told them they were free to come back to meeting any time and take part? Did they then answer all the questions openly and honestly that were raised to begin with that led to them being ousted?
I have heard Leroy's sermon before in the States. If someone actually holds someone to a worker sermon, suddenly the preacher of that sermon is just one guy not expressing the thoughts of the group. If they want to use the sermon in another instance to pressure one of the friends to forgive a perpetrator, they will cite that prominent worker and it adds credence to what they are saying.
Like Johan Kotze cited Graham Snow like that was supposed to make me take heed to what he was saying about forgiveness and not pursuing matters further....right.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 4, 2012 20:05:20 GMT -5
You are your own biggest hero. Aren't you ts?
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Post by JO on Oct 4, 2012 20:14:09 GMT -5
Lin, if you don't like the message feel free to critique it.
But please don't attack the messenger.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 4, 2012 20:17:11 GMT -5
Lin, if you don't like the message feel free to critique it. But please don't attack the messenger. Messenger? What message? His message is I am the great ts.
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Post by JO on Oct 4, 2012 20:18:42 GMT -5
Have the workers gone back to the friends in Alberta and apologized and then told them they were free to come back to meeting any time and take part? Did they then answer all the questions openly and honestly that were raised to begin with that led to them being ousted? They said something like the "disturbed ones" got out through the fence and the only way back in is through the gate. Its sad that they talk of fences and gates instead of the beautiful analogy of the shepherd and the sheep that Jesus spoke of.
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Post by JO on Oct 4, 2012 20:31:00 GMT -5
Lin, if you don't like the message feel free to critique it. But please don't attack the messenger. Messenger? What message? His message is I am the great ts. The message I'm getting from you is something like "I spent a decade in the work and built bridges and got on with my life, so I'm better than TS".
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Post by ts on Oct 4, 2012 20:33:27 GMT -5
Lin, if you don't like the message feel free to critique it. But please don't attack the messenger. Messenger? What message? His message is I am the great ts. It is called giving my testimony. If my testimony is not about what I have seen and heard, then it is not mine. The beauty of that is that my experience is out in the open for people to agree with or disagree with. For some people it gives validation...and that is a good thing.
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Post by justlooking on Oct 4, 2012 22:22:08 GMT -5
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Post by kiwi on Oct 5, 2012 0:01:07 GMT -5
Messenger? What message? His message is I am the great ts. The message I'm getting from you is something like "I spent a decade in the work and built bridges and got on with my life, so I'm better than TS". Does that now make you better than Linford seeing you are so willing to point out what you see as a deficiency in Linford? I won't be surprised if you don't answer the question
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Post by ts on Oct 5, 2012 0:19:21 GMT -5
what I think is more interesting than me saying that I am a worker/servant of God is the fact that for decades the likes of LW were saying the same thing. Also, those that covered for him make that claim. also IH made that claim and those who covered for him made that claim. I guarantee you that I love the friends and workers more than those prominent men/wolves do/did. and I am true to my calling to preach the truth, to depart from "blind tradition's chain" as we preach. I just happen to believe the truth and stand up for it. What am I saying that is not true. I know that you get in trouble with the workers for saying that this is not the only truth and way. However, doesn't Linford and emy and Hberry and kiwi and others feel the same and state it openly? I agree with them. I am still in the work and doing more good for the fellowship now than at any time that I was lending my warm body to give credibility to the system and scratch the itching ears of those who simply wanted to hear someone say that they were in the only truth and way and that all other ways were wrong.
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Post by quizzer on Oct 5, 2012 1:42:04 GMT -5
Here is a link to a sermon by LeRoy Lerwick, overseer of Ecuador. He went to South Africa this year and preached the following sermon. I have heard this theme before among workers who cover up abuses. Johan Kotze, overseer of South Africa, liked to quote what Graham Snow speaks about the "scapegoat". He said the sins of ALL the people are laid on the head of the scapegoat. The scapegoat is then sent out into the wilderness. If anyone were to bring the scapegoat back into the camp(no scripture about bringing it back into the camp...but we'll go with it) by bringing up another person's sin, they are not only bringing the other person's sin into the camp but THEIR OWN!!! I was told that sermon and then Johan Kotze proceeded to tell me I was sinful for trying to get a sexual predator out of the work. He knew that what I was saying was true about him but he said, "I believe God can restore ALL things." Meaning that Johan Marais would continue in the work...and that he did...until revelations of CSA came about. A very popular sermon. "Don't cast the first stone", "You are just as guilty, so don't bring up my sin." etc These sermons favour the predators and further victimize the victims with more guilt. www.trutharchive.net/leroy-lerwick---our-lot-in-life---cape-town-convention---2012This is a common theme in a variety of testimonies in the Truth Archive - question not, forgive, submit, obey. Makes me wonder what was going on in the different areas so that the workers wanted to close their eyes.
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Post by JO on Oct 5, 2012 3:43:48 GMT -5
The message I'm getting from you is something like "I spent a decade in the work and built bridges and got on with my life, so I'm better than TS". Does that now make you better than Linford seeing you are so willing to point out what you see as a deficiency in Linford? I won't be surprised if you don't answer the question Ha! Better answer this one for you Kees! No, it doesn't make me better than Lin. It's pretty sad that the culture of this fellowship ensures that the message gets ignored while the messenger gets attacked.
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Post by JO on Oct 5, 2012 3:46:24 GMT -5
I am still in the work and doing more good for the fellowship now than at any time that I was lending my warm body to give credibility to the system and scratch the itching ears of those who simply wanted to hear someone say that they were in the only truth and way and that all other ways were wrong. Insecure people crave this validation. Their faith is in a religious system more than in Christ.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 5, 2012 4:11:40 GMT -5
Does that now make you better than Linford seeing you are so willing to point out what you see as a deficiency in Linford? I won't be surprised if you don't answer the question Ha! Better answer this one for you Kees! No, it doesn't make me better than Lin. It's pretty sad that the culture of this fellowship ensures that the message gets ignored while the messenger gets attacked. You need to make sure that the messages you read are read through the eyes of Christ so that you are not being duped by an agenda and seeing it as truth
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Post by JO on Oct 5, 2012 5:17:10 GMT -5
Ha! Better answer this one for you Kees! No, it doesn't make me better than Lin. It's pretty sad that the culture of this fellowship ensures that the message gets ignored while the messenger gets attacked. You need to make sure that the messages you read are read through the eyes of Christ so that you are not being duped by an agenda and seeing it as truth The Christ I follow hated abuse of any kind and spoke out harshly against it.
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 5, 2012 5:44:30 GMT -5
I am still in the work and doing more good for the fellowship now than at any time that I was lending my warm body to give credibility to the system and scratch the itching ears of those who simply wanted to hear someone say that they were in the only truth and way and that all other ways were wrong. Insecure people crave this validation. Their faith is in a religious system more than in Christ. AMEN
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Post by rational on Oct 5, 2012 8:33:10 GMT -5
I guarantee you that I love the friends and workers more than those prominent men/wolves do/did. I would be interested in how you could possibly demonstrate that your love is any greater or less than another person's and also, exactly what you are offering as a guarantee - giving up your broad brushing?!? You happen to believe what you consider to be the truth and will stand up for it even without any verification that t is the truth. This is very much like me putting on a BDU and saying I am in the military and doing more good than others who actually are in the military.
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 5, 2012 14:14:21 GMT -5
I guarantee you that I love the friends and workers more than those prominent men/wolves do/did. I would be interested in how you could possibly demonstrate that your love is any greater or less than another person's and also, exactly what you are offering as a guarantee - giving up your broad brushing?!? You happen to believe what you consider to be the truth and will stand up for it even without any verification that t is the truth. This is very much like me putting on a BDU and saying I am in the military and doing more good than others who actually are in the military. Rational glad to see your interest in the work in South Africa or Am I mistaken. Perhaps trying to find something to discredit Gods work going on and raise the issue of Moral code and fear and so on. You know what I am saying jmt ken
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Post by ts on Oct 5, 2012 14:17:47 GMT -5
Looks like Linford has dropped out of this discussion.
In case you are reading, Linford, do you think that Rational is being honest and truthful about his assessment of what I said in meeting, based on what you know?
I still wonder why you did not ask your friend for the content of what I said and rather listened to an obvious character assassination rant from them.
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Post by ts on Oct 5, 2012 23:36:41 GMT -5
Prevaricating, Linford?
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2012 0:45:33 GMT -5
You need to make sure that the messages you read are read through the eyes of Christ so that you are not being duped by an agenda and seeing it as truth The Christ I follow hated abuse of any kind and spoke out harshly against it. Did He say it was your place to?
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2012 0:48:26 GMT -5
Looks like Linford has dropped out of this discussion. In case you are reading, Linford, do you think that Rational is being honest and truthful about his assessment of what I said in meeting, based on what you know? I still wonder why you did not ask your friend for the content of what I said and rather listened to an obvious character assassination rant from them. Where do you get the idea that Linford owes you anything in the way of discussion?
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