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Post by degem on Feb 27, 2008 11:43:57 GMT -5
I believe that rational and other atheists have moral standards and ethics. Having a very close relative of mine who has become an atheist I have seen morals and ethics in him. I will not lie. I disagree with his beliefs. But I try to have respect for what he believes in and its not easy. Gem
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Post by Stop already on Feb 27, 2008 13:04:40 GMT -5
Scott,
I'm delighted to see that you will continue to involve yourself with other agencies to deal with this problem.
You seem to have a very real talent and ability to connect with others of all ages: and my guess is that those who might have problems revealing the wrong-doers with others, would be able to do so quite easily with you.
Keep up the good work!
And thank you for helping and supporting Lyle (and others) to make the change in our church!
Also, it's good to hear that other overseers are now in the process of doing it right.
You're a good man, Charlie Brown: and the world is a better place for having you in it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2008 13:21:50 GMT -5
To the poster who would like to see Scott out of the picture and the whole matter placed back into the overseers' hands, here's a couple responses:
1. The whole matter of establishing the proper guidelines for workers and overseers when coming into contact with sexual molestation problems is still in its infancy. There are still plenty of jurisdictions who are either actively covering up or have no clarity of guidelines. We need everyone who cares about children to remain as involved as possible on this issue, even if it is no more than bringing it up to your local workers that there is a need for clear and proper guidelines.
2. The overseers have a history of cover ups and botched handling. Just because Lyle handled this one properly doesn't mean that overseers everywhere have gotten straight on this issue. At this stage, overseers other than Lyle have to earn trust on this matter, some of them have to start earning that trust from a negative position. Until it becomes clear to everyone that overseers everywhere are straight and correct on this, there remains a need for involvement from any good source.
3. There will be resistance to change on this for some time to come. Why? Vested interests. There will be overseers in many areas who have not acted properly on this, so are practically as guilty as the perpetrators. Their pride will not allow to be come clean on their acts of conspiracy and obstruction of justice, so they will take the position of not acting at all or stonewalling. There are lots of soiled hands out there so this isn't going to get straightened out any time soon.
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Post by passing on on Feb 27, 2008 14:19:38 GMT -5
Passing on what has been passed on to me: "This site was developed by John Walsh from Americas Most Wanted." Sex offenders website. " www.Family WatchDog.us When you visit this site you can enter your address and a map will pop up with your house as a small icon of a house. There will be red, blue and green dots surrounding your entire neighborhood. When you click on these dots a picture of a criminal will appear with his or her home address and the description of the crime he or she has committed. The best thing is that you can show your children these pictures and see how close these people live to your home or school. This site was developed by John Walsh from Americas Most Wanted. This is another tool we can use to help us keep our kids safe. Please pass this on to everyone!!! "
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Post by degem on Feb 27, 2008 14:34:30 GMT -5
It is evident by the posts on the board that many have varied opinions on how child molestation should be handled. I believe that each of us have a measure of responsibility in doing what we can to stop it etc. I also believe that the end of the matter is: we all despise and are sickened by what child molesters do...we all are heartbroken and saddened because it happens to innocent children.
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Post by Stop already on Feb 27, 2008 17:09:01 GMT -5
Clearday,
You make some valid points: and I believe our aim and desire for our church is the same, in that we both want it to be one where the overseer/leaders are worthy of our trust and respect.
I, too, am against the cover-ups and the old policies and way of handling such matters in the past: and I was one of the posters who used my voice to urge the TS event be handled properly.
Now I'm at the stage where I want to see that our overseers have stepped up to the plate--and are prepared to live up to their responsibilities on their own--and without the need for any outside pressure directly on them.
I'm not suggesting we all just forget about it and move on. All I'm doing is suggesting we step back: and give them back the reins: and see what they do with them.
Like: instead of the information going first to Scott and then to them, let it first go to the overseers--and then, if need be--to Scott, if they try to use the old methods.
Otherwise, how will we KNOW that the policy has changed? And how will we KNOW which overseers are worthy of their position--and will use their authority correctly?
As for the need for continued concern and involvement to remain active, I'm in complete agreement with you.
I don't see a large threat of peds being found in our ministry. When I think about the large number of workers that we'd had over the past 110 years: and then I look at the small number of different names that have been reported to have been (allegedly) peds, it's only a very few names that have shown up.
Therefore, (without diminishing the need to stay watchful), I just wish to make the point that I don't think our ministry is a hotbed full of peds, and that we all have to tremble with fear over them being in the presence of our children.
The ones I've known have certainly been trustworthy in that regard. And to let a few bad apples destroy that trust for all the good ones would hardly be fair.
The old practice (of housewives) of sweeping the dirt under the rug doesn't happen much these day.
Blaming the victim for the wrongs done against them has ceased to be in our society as well today.
And my hope is that our church has now ceased those practices as well.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2008 19:05:15 GMT -5
Clearday, You make some valid points: and I believe our aim and desire for our church is the same, in that we both want it to be one where the overseer/leaders are worthy of our trust and respect. I, too, am against the cover-ups and the old policies and way of handling such matters in the past: and I was one of the posters who used my voice to urge the TS event be handled properly. Now I'm at the stage where I want to see that our overseers have stepped up to the plate--and are prepared to live up to their responsibilities on their own--and without the need for any outside pressure directly on them. I'm not suggesting we all just forget about it and move on. All I'm doing is suggesting we step back: and give them back the reins: and see what they do with them. Like: instead of the information going first to Scott and then to them, let it first go to the overseers--and then, if need be--to Scott, if they try to use the old methods. Otherwise, how will we KNOW that the policy has changed? And how will we KNOW which overseers are worthy of their position--and will use their authority correctly? As for the need for continued concern and involvement to remain active, I'm in complete agreement with you. I don't see a large threat of peds being found in our ministry. When I think about the large number of workers that we'd had over the past 110 years: and then I look at the small number of different names that have been reported to have been (allegedly) peds, it's only a very few names that have shown up. Therefore, (without diminishing the need to stay watchful), I just wish to make the point that I don't think our ministry is a hotbed full of peds, and that we all have to tremble with fear over them being in the presence of our children. The ones I've known have certainly been trustworthy in that regard. And to let a few bad apples destroy that trust for all the good ones would hardly be fair. The old practice (of housewives) of sweeping the dirt under the rug doesn't happen much these day. Blaming the victim for the wrongs done against them has ceased to be in our society as well today. And my hope is that our church has now ceased those practices as well. Stop already, we're not too far apart on the way we see things, perhaps more on emphasis than anything. A few more responses: One strong argument for Scott staying involved is that a significant number of abused people no longer go to meetings, have no connection with an overseer, and no trust of one either. Someone like Scott who unusually approachable and has earned trust can be valuable, especially for abused exes. Personally at this point, I feel there are few, if any, overseers who have demonstrated trustworthiness on this issue other than Lyle. The Mata case demonstrated a complete lack of moral clarity amongst the CA workers. Western Canadian workers have dithered and so far have come down on the side of coverup on one current case. I hear rumblings that something is happening in the right direction but even if it does go that way, my confidence level is not much higher because of all the pressure made to bear on those overseers. The old case of a worker in the south midwest also has not demonstrated moral clarity. The workers in NSW Australia steadfastly required a family with small children to attend a meeting where a proven child molester attended. It's still a nightmare of moral turbidity out there. We are only at the beginning of repair here and most F&Ws would rather just keep their heads down and hope all this blows away as they always have. I agree that we may be at low risk of peds amongst the ministry, but with the code of silence that exists amongst the ministry, how can we possibly know that? True, commonly known peds do not number high to my knowledge, but with the environment of secrecy amongst the workers and the friends, it is highly possible that our ped ratio is actually higher than in the average group setting, I just don't know. How can my confidence level go up? When all overseers convey a realistic policy for dealing with molesters to their staff, and those field workers then disseminate the policy to all the friends, whether in a group setting or individually as they visit and stay with friends in their field. Otherwise, we will muddle along in darkness for years yet until an overseer gets handcuffed on conspiracy charges. This needs to be fixed properly before that happens.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 27, 2008 19:25:33 GMT -5
To "Stop Already" RE: I don't see a large threat of peds being found in our ministry. When I think about the large number of workers that we'd had over the past 110 years: and then I look at the small number of different names that have been reported to have been (allegedly) peds, it's only a very few names that have shown up.
Are you in a position where these situations would be reported to you? So you would know all the peds for the last 110 years? How do you know about these exact or approximate numbers? Or are you just speaking of those you have known about in your lifetime out of X no. of workers for 110 years? (Not an apples to apples comparison if so.)
Maybe I understood you wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that since you only know a few peds, that others like Scott shouldn't be concerned over the few shattered lives those peds caused?
Perhaps that isn't a very good measuring guage - those you know of against all known workers ever in the work...
The measurement Jesus gave is: "It were better for him that a millstone be hanged about his neck and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Luke 17:2
Also, the peds aren't just found in the ministry--they're in the elders , friends and relatives; also incest by both mothers and fathers. Perhaps you should include them in your stats?
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 27, 2008 23:42:02 GMT -5
Howdy Stop already, I am very encouraged by the fact that you feel that the overseers need to be held accountable for dealing with the problem of chilld abuse in your church. I'd like to address your posting above. You make some valid points: and I believe our aim and desire for our church is the same, in that we both want it to be one where the overseer/leaders are worthy of our trust and respect.It is interesting that it appears by this statement that currently you do not feel that the overseers/leaders have your trust and respect. I, too, am against the cover-ups and the old policies and way of handling such matters in the past: and I was one of the posters who used my voice to urge the TS event be handled properly.I am glad that you spoke up in order to have the TS case be handled properly. I'm curious as to how you feel you can help the next time you hear of an abuse situation. I'm not sure if you would be interested in contacting me by email or not, but I would be interested in corresponding with you about that. Now I'm at the stage where I want to see that our overseers have stepped up to the plate--and are prepared to live up to their responsibilities on their own--and without the need for any outside pressure directly on them.By this it sounds as if you feel that the only reason Lyle acted as he did concerning the TS case was because of the involvement of us 'exes' that met with him. Perhaps you do not know what all Lyle did that was NOT as a result of meeting with us. I'm not suggesting we all just forget about it and move on. All I'm doing is suggesting we step back: and give them back the reins: and see what they do with them.How do you feel that the reins were taken away from them? It really sounds like you feel that nothing would have been done concerning abuse issues if it weren't for the influence of 'exes', but now because of our influence you think that now they will all start handling these issues in the open? Like: instead of the information going first to Scott and then to them, let it first go to the overseers--and then, if need be--to Scott, if they try to use the old methods.
Well now..... I have to totally 100% disagree with you here. The very first thing that should happen in any case of abuse (or suspected abuse) is for the authorities to be notified. It should happen immediately without calling or emailing anyone. Maybe I misunderstood your statement here. Are you saying that you feel the members of your church should break the law in regards to reporting child abuse? You may want to read up on your state laws in regards to this. It is also a requirement that the workers immediately report any suspected abuse to the authorities. If the authorities are notified, there would really be no need to notify me. Ever.... Otherwise, how will we KNOW that the policy has changed? And how will we KNOW which overseers are worthy of their position--and will use their authority correctly?
I would say that you will know if your overseers are worthy of their position if as soon as they become aware of an abuse situation they make sure that the matter HAS been turned over to the authorities for investigation, all those who have been in contact with the alleged abuser are notified, and steps are taken to insure that everyone who has any information assists in any way they can to help the authorities in their investigation. As for the need for continued concern and involvement to remain active, I'm in complete agreement with you. I don't see a large threat of peds being found in our ministry. When I think about the large number of workers that we'd had over the past 110 years: and then I look at the small number of different names that have been reported to have been (allegedly) peds, it's only a very few names that have shown up.I am curious as to what a 'small number' of names is to you. I am also curious as to what you mean by " small number of different names that have been reported "? Reported to who? To the workers? To the authorities? I know a lot more have been reported to the workers than have been reported to the authorities. Therefore, (without diminishing the need to stay watchful), I just wish to make the point that I don't think our ministry is a hotbed full of peds, and that we all have to tremble with fear over them being in the presence of our children.
I really would like you to email me and I will share information which I will not share here openly on the board. I am not wanting to pass on any 'gossip' but will give you facts as I know them, and which have come from reliable sources. I ask this because you have shown that you want to have your overseers held accountable for the positions they hold in your church, and that you want them to show themselves worthy. I think it is wonderful that you want to do this, and I know that you will be sure to contact them with the information which I will give you in regards to current investigations by the authorities. It is about time in my estimation that you men in the church stepped up to the plate and demanded accountability from the overseers. The ones I've known have certainly been trustworthy in that regard. And to let a few bad apples destroy that trust for all the good ones would hardly be fair.You are in a perfect position to bring to the trustworthy workers the information which I can share with you. By letting those trustworthy workers have this information, they will be able to keep you informed of how the issues are being taken care of, and you in turn can help to pass on the information to other professing folks in the church. The old practice (of housewives) of sweeping the dirt under the rug doesn't happen much these day.That is great that you feel that way! By bringing all these issues out into the light of Christ and dealt with openly by the church membership, you will be able to insure that the overseers are performing the duty of caring for the church. Blaming the victim for the wrongs done against them has ceased to be in our society as well today. And my hope is that our church has now ceased those practices as well.I do agree that there is going to be a transition period. One of the overseers is currently trying to understand the right thing to do in regards to an abuser. It will take time for them all to understand just how important it is to follow the law, and not simply send an offender home to 'rest' or to put them out of the work when caught abusing someone. My email is: bescottross@aol.com I hope that you will contact me, as I feel the more that know of what is happening within the church, the more likely it is that the other overseers will follow the example of Lyle here in Minnesota regarding how to handle abuse issues. Thank you for caring, Scott
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 4, 2012 17:38:19 GMT -5
I suspose you know that the continuous line you have running along the bottom of your post about President Obama is a lie.It is your right to not like him & even your right to say so. Even your right to post a lie. But I wanted to let you know it is a LIE
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