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Post by To Authorities on Feb 26, 2008 18:24:49 GMT -5
I do not believe that the gathering and disseminating of hearsay and unsupported accounts will help solve the problem.
It appears that you have a burr under your saddle regarding Scott's involvement. The question that your cross examination is begging is "what's it to you"? Perhaps you feel that somehow TS could have been investigated, properly tried and sentenced, removed from the work, and sent to prison without anybody finding out about it? Sparing the "kingdom" such embarassment? As far as your contention that a disinterested third party can only deliver hearsay and unsupported accounts to the table, I say bunk. PIs fill this role in supporting investigations everyday.
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Post by not me on Feb 26, 2008 18:52:54 GMT -5
I'm not registered, but if I was the only time I would post using my registered name would be to state that I did or did not post the message in question.
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Post by IMO on Feb 26, 2008 19:12:00 GMT -5
Based on what law? IMO, Scott has NOT made everything public, he seems to be going about things very carefully WITH the permission of those who gave them the FIRST HAND information. (You should really read though some of the older posts) IMO I would think that in most cases of any kind the police do not know who has information UNTIL people come forward, in many cases there they would have no way of knowing who may have information. IMO From what I have read of Scott's prior posts, he did not ask to get involved, he was asked. He is only acting as a 'clearing house' for information. It 'appears' that the 'hersay' Scott has is a list of persons who could be contacted directly if needed. IMO, Again, you should really go back an read HOW Scott received that information. I have thought about the information he has and it would be easy for it to become a personal crusade or say forget it, it's not my problem.
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Post by Just reading on Feb 26, 2008 19:20:42 GMT -5
Based on what law? IMO, Scott has NOT made everything public, he seems to be going about things very carefully WITH the permission of those who gave them the FIRST HAND information. (You should really read though some of the older posts) I think it was the state's attorney that Scott indicated had given him details of an ongoing case. Not Scott. IMO I would think that in most cases of any kind the police do not know who has information UNTIL people come forward, in many cases there they would have no way of knowing who may have information.
So did they contact Scott for information as he stated? IMO From what I have read of Scott's prior posts, he did not ask to get involved, he was asked. He is only acting as a 'clearing house' for information. It 'appears' that the 'hersay' Scott has is a list of persons who could be contacted directly if needed.He asked people to send him information. IMO, Again, you should really go back an read HOW Scott received that information.
If he did not witness the event it is hearsay. I have thought about the information he has and it would be easy for it to become a personal crusade or say forget it, it's not my problem.I think that is the point - it is not his business.
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Post by yep on Feb 26, 2008 19:34:31 GMT -5
Yep, we should all just stick our heads in the sand
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Post by BUT on Feb 26, 2008 19:37:52 GMT -5
But some of us are glad that not everyone sticks their head in the sand. Scott, you are doing the right thing. But you don't need us to tell you that.
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Post by ostriches on Feb 26, 2008 19:43:31 GMT -5
Us ostriches are REAL TIRED of sticking our heads in the sand. We are glad some are liberating us
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Post by want to know on Feb 26, 2008 19:47:20 GMT -5
ok...so what is it to you that tom smith abused dick harry 30 years ago or jack doe didn't report this to the police and got tom smith locked up.... how important is this information REALLY to your life? what are your real motives in getting this information? have you paid for all the crimes you've committed in this life??? ...or do you HAVE a life? to anyone who wants to answer ,including Mr Scott here, have you been guilty of abusing anyone?..... one a t a time ,please
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Post by atourities on Feb 26, 2008 20:00:06 GMT -5
I do not believe that the gathering and disseminating of hearsay and unsupported accounts will help solve the problem. It appears that you have a burr under your saddle regarding Scott's involvement. The question that your cross examination is begging is "what's it to you"? Perhaps you feel that somehow TS could have been investigated, properly tried and sentenced, removed from the work, and sent to prison without anybody finding out about it? Sparing the "kingdom" such embarassment? I have no problem with spreading the word when someone has been convicted. The problem I have is with rumors and hearsay being passed around as if it was fact. Yes PIs do. They go out and get information. Information like photos. Direct observations. They do not collect rumors as evidence. Not emailed tales sent back and forth without backup.
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motivation motivator
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Post by motivation motivator on Feb 26, 2008 20:34:15 GMT -5
what are your real motives in getting this information? have you paid for all the crimes you've committed in this life??? ...or do you HAVE a life? to anyone who wants to answer ,including Mr Scott here, have you been guilty of abusing anyone?..... post this question a couple of times, too.
It seems no one really cares what peoples ''motives'' really are.
Ii is not what goes into man that defiles the man, but what comes out of man that defiles him. [what comes out IS the MOTIVES !!!] when our motive is wrong, our action is wrong, when our motive is PURE, our action is pure.
To the pure in heart, All things are pure.
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Post by Help me out on Feb 26, 2008 20:39:30 GMT -5
Lyle said "I doubt that there are any workers on the staff that disapprove of being honest about dealing with abusers. The thing they might disagree with is enlisting the support of Scott in working with it. "
So help me to understand why enlisting the support of a "non-professing" person should be questioned. As a member of today's fellowship we must rely on the services and expertise of many people from many religions (or lack of religions) in our day to day activities. That's just the way life is.
When it comes to the care and assistance of innocent children we must join forces, not separate, in the attempt to put abusers away.
Lyle and Scott you are doing what is right. God Bless You!
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Post by because on Feb 26, 2008 20:51:28 GMT -5
Some people do not like 'outsourcing.' Families, companies and I guess religion. ))) "You mean in a group of 100,000 we couldn't find 'one of us' to do the job? ((( And it's a 'change,' some people don't like change. ... and the list could go on.
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Post by The OUTSIDER on Feb 26, 2008 21:00:34 GMT -5
An 'OUTSIDER' is an 'OUTSIDER' is an 'OUTSIDER' period.
If the 2x2s allow even one 'OUTSIDER', it opens a whole new can of worms. This should be interesting because now my 2x2 relatives will have to look at us other 'OUTSIDERS' in a whole new light.
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Post by IMO Im not Scott on Feb 26, 2008 21:09:06 GMT -5
IMO - This is information is not important to me personally and I have not asked to see it. It is important to see that justice is done. It does not 'sound like' anyone is going to go after someone about something that happened 30 years ago. But that information may be used to show a pattern of abuse, and thus stop future abuse. IMO - As I have posted before on this thread, Scott did not go looking to become involved in this. His motive (appears to be) to help those that have come to him. All his crimes? If we can't defend the criminal, lets attact the accusers Do the cops catch every car speeding? Or a fisher catch every fish? Does that mean that we/they should stop trying? IMO - There maybe be a million things Scott would rather do than this, but again others have ASKED HIM to help, many others are glad he is willing. IMO - No. If someone here has, does that mean they should NOT want others brought to justice?
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Post by To Scott on Feb 26, 2008 21:20:49 GMT -5
Dear Scott, Thank you for all your work, and for the gift of your time.
Also, please thank your wife. Thank her for being understanding and supportive. I know that she is supportive or you would not be doing this. Thank you, and we stand with you and WILL to you much strength.
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Post by enough already on Feb 26, 2008 22:07:23 GMT -5
Dear Scott, Thank you for all your work, and for the gift of your time. Also, please thank your wife. Thank her for being understanding and supportive. I know that she is supportive or you would not be doing this. Thank you, and we stand with you and WILL to you much strength. oh pleeeeease....there are so many orphans, widows,hungry people,lonely, destitute who can use some of our time... why beat a dead horse? why stay in the graveyard digging up skeletons?
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Post by honesty on Feb 26, 2008 22:11:05 GMT -5
oh pleeeeease....there are so many orphans, widows,hungry people,lonely, destitute who can use some of our time... why beat a dead horse? why stay in the graveyard digging up skeletons? translation: Let the abusers roam free!Eschew obfuscation.
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Post by sounds to me on Feb 26, 2008 22:11:55 GMT -5
oh pleeeeease....there are so many orphans, widows,hungry people,lonely, destitute who can use some of our time... why beat a dead horse? why stay in the graveyard digging up skeletons? Sounds to me like someone has some skeletons in their closet and is getting nervious.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 26, 2008 23:07:59 GMT -5
Howdy, I guess I should get on here and say a few things. I counted about 18 professing folks here that posted in support of what I have been doing for the last several months. I never counted those I thought were fellow 'exes'. I would like to say thank you all for your support and understanding in this matter. There is one person here that has decided to take offense at what I am doing. I believe it is the same person that I shared several private PM's with back when I first got involved in the issue concerning Tim and I started getting information sent to me about other abuse situations. They also publicly made an issue on the board, but like in this instance did so by using different aliases rather than to go by their registered name here. This person (if the same) is an atheist, and therefore has no Christian values in their life, and does not answer to any higher authority than themselves. Therefore I can see why they would not be able to understand why I am involved in this. I attended a family reunion last August and looked around at my grandnieces and grandnephews whose families go to meetings, and knew then that I needed to continue to be involved in the abuse issues. For some reason God has decided for me that this is an area that I should use the gifts that He gave me. I have done a lot of praying about this, and have also discussed this with my pastor at the church I attend. His recommendation was to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit in these matters. I would like to make one thing clear in all this. I have no desire to 'bring down the church'. I have done my best to follow the greatest commandment of all and that is to act out of love. As I have repeated to others in emails, I do not judge others. It is not my place to do so, and it never will be. In regards to me spreading hearsay around. It is true that I share information I receive off board with others. As I mentioned before, this includes a few workers and some who are authorities, as well as some professing folks that have asked me for information which is not given to them by the overseers in their area. I will not give out much information in regards to that here on the TMB. If you go back through my posts, you will find perhaps 3 names that I have mentioned here. Anyhow, those who know of what I do 'off board' have shown their confidence in me, and I appreciate all the help and support that I have received. In regards to Lyle and I communicating with each other. I have gained a tremendous amount of respect for him and the actions he has taken. Very little of what he has done is public knowledge, and probably will never be. In all his dealings with me he has shown me that he is a true man of God. He and I do not see eye to eye on scriptural interpretation, but concerning the issue of child abuse we definitely share the same concerns. You people here in Minnesota, and those who are professing elsewhere can rest assured that he is doing what he can to bring healing to your church regarding these matters. To me, Lyle is not 'just another worker', but has also become a friend. As an 'ex' being involved in helping Lyle (a worker), I suppose to some makes no sense. But.... I see us as fellow Christians who have come together to work for the good of the Church (body of Christ) Those who are professing consider themselves Christians, and those of us who are exes and choose to worship elsewhere also consider ourselves to be Christians. I see no conflict of interest here, even though there are doctrinal differences. Scott
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Post by honesty on Feb 26, 2008 23:12:28 GMT -5
Scott,
You are the right person at the right place at the right time. Probably not just a coincidence, I would think.
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Post by Stop already on Feb 26, 2008 23:14:16 GMT -5
No, sounds to me like the bad guy has already been caught, and now you want to round up a posse!
I mean, really....just how many bad guys do you think continue to exist in our ministry today???
Lyle dealt with the situation properly, and has established new guidelines for the future handling of it, should it happen again.
Other overseers/workers/believers have become more aware and more educated due to the TS case.
And everyone in our group now knows the TBSers are ready to strike should it ever happen again!
You did good, but now, maybe, you've done all the good here that needed to be done. So--move on, and do good in some other area instead.
I mean, the next ped episode within our group may not take place for many years-- why waste those years on us???
Like, maybe, you could use your time better by taking a good look for the peds that might be existing in your own church or neighborhood instead. And doing something about them.
Lyle seems to have nicely asked you to butt out now. So, why not show unto him the same kind of respect he has shown unto you throughout all of this?
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Post by Stop already on Feb 27, 2008 0:11:40 GMT -5
Scott,
You posted while I was typing what I had to say. Therefore, I didn't read what you had to say before I posted.
I supported all that took place here with regards to the TS situation. And appreciated all that you and others had to do with ensuring it was handled properly.
My feeling is that it is now up to our church and the overseers of it to take over--and do it right--on their own.
They are the overseers. It's their job. Let them do it. (And let them do it right).
The old way of handling such matters in our church was wrong. I believe that the TS case showed them the right way it had to be handled.
I, for one, as a believer in this fellowship, want to see them living up their responsibility in this area.
It's the only way for them to re-establish their credibility: and to prove that the "old way" of handling such matters is gone.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 27, 2008 0:23:14 GMT -5
You posted while I was typing what I had to say. Therefore, I didn't read what you had to say before I posted.
I've had that happen to me also. I supported all that took place here with regards to the TS situation. And appreciated all that you and others had to do with ensuring it was handled properly.
Thank you My feeling is that it is now up to our church and the overseers of it to take over--and do it right--on their own.I couldn't agree more, and only doing now what has been asked of me They are the overseers. It's their job. Let them do it. (And let them do it right).
Again, I couldn't agree more The old way of handling such matters in our church was wrong. I believe that the TS case showed them the right way it had to be handled.It is catching on in other areas, I do have confirmation of that I, for one, as a believer in this fellowship, want to see them living up their responsibility in this area.It is up to those who are in your fellowship to hold your spiritual leaders accountable for their position. I totally agree again It's the only way for them to re-establish their credibility: and to prove that the "old way" of handling such matters is gone.You have nailed it 100% with this post. Unfortunately, in your previous post: I mean, the next ped episode within our group may not take place for many years-- why waste those years on us???It's going on now. I don't plan on making an issue of it, and I think that the overseer is dealing with it in that area as he should. Like, maybe, you could use your time better by taking a good look for the peds that might be existing in your own church or neighborhood instead. And doing something about them.We do in our church. Kids receive a lot of care there, and I am getting involved with the high school kids youth group. In the church I attend the elders take care of informing the members of what is going on and watch out for us. Lyle seems to have nicely asked you to butt out now. So, why not show unto him the same kind of respect he has shown unto you throughout all of this?
I certainly will, and I'll ask him about this when I meet with him later this week. Scott
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Post by knownashelen on Feb 27, 2008 1:23:10 GMT -5
I too, go to meetings, and wholeheartedly agree that this subject matter should be discussed openly. It is what is hidden that can harm us. As for Scott, I have PM'd Scott myself regarding a situation and feel in my gut that he can be trusted and is really putting himself out there to do a good thing. This task he has undertaken is one that not all could handle. I commend him also for his ability to deal with people without distinction of being professing or not.
PS... I truly thought that the person who wrote about the best counselor being a reformed abuser was JOKING!!! At least I had hoped!!!
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Post by rational on Feb 27, 2008 1:47:34 GMT -5
There is one person here that has decided to take offense at what I am doing. I believe it is the same person that I shared several private PM's with back when I first got involved in the issue concerning Tim and I started getting information sent to me about other abuse situations. They also publicly made an issue on the board, but like in this instance did so by using different aliases rather than to go by their registered name here. I did discuss my thoughts about this with you in private and expressed my feelings in public as well. In the end I thought we agreed that while we both wanted the same final result we disagreed about the methodology. It is true I am an atheist. What are these vaunted Christian values that I lack? I find this highly offensive. Your implication that the morals and ethical values of an atheist are somehow beneath those of a theist has absolutely no support in real life. Remember that TS and others all would consider themselves to be theists and Christians. Are these the Christian values to which you are referring? And why would I be unable to understand this concept? Because I am unable to have empathy for other humans? Or because my ethics are so inferior to you and your fellow theists? Or is it just a reflection of the Christian belief that they are the only ones who have a lock on salvation?
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 27, 2008 9:03:14 GMT -5
Howdy rational, I thought maybe after I posted that you might pay me a visit. Out of curiosity, WAS it you that posted on this thread? I thought it might be, as it was the same type of posting that I answered in the past. If so, why wouldn't you want to post under your registered name? I'll try to answer your concerns listed above. My response probably wasn't as well thought out as it should have been, but.... It was my words so I need to respond to them. There is one person here that has decided to take offense at what I am doing. I believe it is the same person that I shared several private PM's with back when I first got involved in the issue concerning Tim and I started getting information sent to me about other abuse situations. They also publicly made an issue on the board, but like in this instance did so by using different aliases rather than to go by their registered name here. I did discuss my thoughts about this with you in private and expressed my feelings in public as well. In the end I thought we agreed that while we both wanted the same final result we disagreed about the methodology. Yes this is true. I actually was glad that you contacted me privately with your concerns. I also had even more private PM's with a professing man that also disagreed with my involvement. Both of you had similar concerns. It may not look like it to you, but what you both shared with me did affect how I conducted myself after that. This person (if the same) is an atheist, and therefore has no Christian values in their life, and does not answer to any higher authority than themselves. It is true I am an atheist. What are these vaunted Christian values that I lack? I find this highly offensive. Your implication that the morals and ethical values of an atheist are somehow beneath those of a theist has absolutely no support in real life. Remember that TS and others all would consider themselves to be theists and Christians. Are these the Christian values to which you are referring?I did not say (although reading over how I said it I understand your reaction to it...sorry)that you lacked values. On the contrary, I have found you to have firmly fixed values. Yes I agree that TS probably considers himself a theist, as do others. I question sometimes whether some of the theists (believers in God) are actually Christians (followers of Christ) The Christian values I refer to are those which are evident in one's life by allowing the Holy Spirit to guide one's actions by following the teachings of Christ. I would further agree that those values shown by (true) Christians can overlap the values of one who does not believe in God. The difference to me is that a true Christian's values are evident because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit working through them. Out of curiosity, DO you feel you answer to a higher authority than yourself? Therefore I can see why they would not be able to understand why I am involved in this. And why would I be unable to understand this concept? Because I am unable to have empathy for other humans? Or because my ethics are so inferior to you and your fellow theists? Or is it just a reflection of the Christian belief that they are the only ones who have a lock on salvation? My statement is in regards to how I have felt that God has placed me in the position I am in. Since you do not believe in God, you would therefore be unable to believe this, and would therefore feel that I am doing my own will, and not the will of God. (although you may be able to believe that I morally feel it is the right thing to do) Believe me, it is not a comfortable position I have found myself in, but God does not always ask us to do that which is comfortable. I am a pretty simple man, rational, and I follow a pretty simple plan. I believe, I have faith, I have repented of my past, I allow the Holy Spirit to guide me in my life and therefore live under the wonderful unearned grace of God. That pretty much says it in a nutshell for me. I would probably lose at any theological debate I get involved in, even with one who does not believe in God. Here on the TMB we all have one thing in common. We all have the background of somehow having been or still are going to meetings. As I have said in the past, I view us all here as one big dysfunctional family. We tend to fight and squabble amongst ourselves, and in many cases we treat each other pretty poorly. BUT I still look at us as family, and as such I love each and every one that comes to these boards with the love one shows toward a family member. I know that for many that post here there is the 'us' versus 'them' or the 'innie' versus the 'outie' or the 'professing' versus those who 'lost out' attitude. I think it is time for us all to pull up our big boy and big girl undies and realize that if we are true Christians then we all belong to the same Church (body of Christ) even though we worship in different denominations or fellowships or churches or houses or lack thereof of all the above. I do not understand those who are atheists, because even when I was the farthest away from God in my life, I still believed in Him. When I finally realized how much I needed Him in my life...... I discovered that He was right there with me, and always had been. Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 27, 2008 10:50:30 GMT -5
Howdy again rational, I received an email which along with other information included this: PS I too was unhappy about your comments regarding atheists. I work with many atheists, and find them to have moral standards that are no higher or no lower than those of the Christians in my work place.This was my response: I totally agree with you about the moral standards. Many atheists have a much HIGHER moral standard because they do not fall back on the 'I'm better than you because I'm a Christian' crap. I hope I got my point across to 'rational' about my meaning. rational, I ask your forgiveness for my post in question. (and our other atheists who post here also) My 6 brain cells were not all working together last night or I probably would have caught that what I was saying wasn't really what I was meaning. Hope you understand by my above post what I meant. Scott
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Post by degem on Feb 27, 2008 11:00:56 GMT -5
Believe me or not, what is going on about some workers not letting families with children receive the same information as others about present child abuse , is TRUE and NOT HEARSAY. Without going into details which I won't do, I know it to be a fact. Gem
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