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Post by JO on Sept 2, 2012 20:32:22 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying Matt10. I'm a Christian, not a Biblian. I follow the Christ of the bible, not the bible itself. This is a dangerous path to follow for things like CSA and criminal/immoral acts. History has proved that the outcome is not good. Your comment is a little too cryptic for me. Could you expand on it please?
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Post by rational on Sept 3, 2012 1:47:25 GMT -5
This is a dangerous path to follow for things like CSA and criminal/immoral acts. History has proved that the outcome is not good. Your comment is a little too cryptic for me. Could you expand on it please? Believing in paranormal beings is one thing but thinking that god, Jesus, or some paranormal being in any way cares that children (or anyone) are being abused or that they will take any action to prevent current or future abuse leads to situations like those being discovered in the RCC, F&W, and other groups, where the crimes are left in the hands of god, Jesus, some paranormal being, or the group leaders and not reported to the authorities who can, and will, take action. Sorry about the lengthy sentence.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 4:56:44 GMT -5
Your answer makes no sense to me at all. But then, perhaps that was your intention. Matt10 Sorry -- I will re-phraze. "I read what was written about Jesus promise about this, in the bible ... so I checked it out in myself, and found that it worked well for me" Christian teaching in a nutshell!
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Post by snow on Sept 3, 2012 13:02:35 GMT -5
Sorry -- I will re-phraze. "I read what was written about Jesus promise about this, in the bible ... so I checked it out in myself, and found that it worked well for me" Christian teaching in a nutshell! No, that's Buddhism, not Christianity. It's how Christian teaching should be though. If that's what you believe then you are more Buddhist than Christian imo.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 13:23:44 GMT -5
Christian teaching in a nutshell! No, that's Buddhism, not Christianity. It's how Christian teaching should be though. If that's what you believe then you are more Buddhist than Christian imo. No that's Christianity. It doesn't matter who said it or if it is Buddhist doctrine. Christianity teaches of the "kingdom within" and "temples not made with hands". It also teaches that the ultimate way of life is to love your neighbour as yourself....no complicated philosophies required. The Dalai Lama makes a great Christian no?
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Post by JO on Sept 3, 2012 14:35:52 GMT -5
Many atrocities have been committed over the last 2000 years using the bible as justification.
However, obeying the following teaching of Jesus has made the world a better place:
........................ .......................... .......................... .....................
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
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Post by Greg on Sept 3, 2012 15:00:38 GMT -5
I'm not sure just what Christianity is, but the trend over the last 1970 or so years seems to be "Follow US and WE follow Christ!"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 15:44:59 GMT -5
I'm not sure just what Christianity is, but the trend over the last 1970 or so years seems to be "Follow US and WE follow Christ!" That pretty much nails what's been going on.
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Post by snow on Sept 3, 2012 15:45:15 GMT -5
No, that's Buddhism, not Christianity. It's how Christian teaching should be though. If that's what you believe then you are more Buddhist than Christian imo. No that's Christianity. It doesn't matter who said it or if it is Buddhist doctrine. Christianity teaches of the "kingdom within" and "temples not made with hands". It also teaches that the ultimate way of life is to love your neighbour as yourself....no complicated philosophies required. The Dalai Lama makes a great Christian no? I think it would be less confusing to take the labels out of it all and call it a universal spirituality. Oh wait, that's another label. Oh well, sigh, I hope you get my point anyway...
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Post by sharonw on Sept 3, 2012 15:51:00 GMT -5
Many atrocities have been committed over the last 2000 years using the bible as justification. However, obeying the following teaching of Jesus has made the world a better place: ........................ .......................... .......................... ..................... Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” But JO, what Rat seems to be saying is this, people do not understand the commandments of love...all they understand is what "I want", "It's all about me" and the LACK of love for one another and too much love for self is the reason that there are these things and occurrance that God has granted the authorities of the land the right to prosecute according to the law of the land. Just saying that God, Jesus or some other paranormal being can settle the problem is not necessarily reality....but I will say this, God put laws of the people in the different societies to where people can face reality and know that any aberration of not loving one another will be taken care of. The problem that arises from people who expect God or other paranormals to take care of the rotten parts of society and do not utilize the laws that has been allowed for that society to work.....God expects us to look at these things in reality and not suppositions!
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Post by sharonw on Sept 3, 2012 15:52:26 GMT -5
I'm not sure just what Christianity is, but the trend over the last 1970 or so years seems to be "Follow US and WE follow Christ!" I think this started with Paul...didn't he advise people to follow him for he followed the Saviour.....when we get too many humans between us and the saviour naturally things are going to come out rather confused, eh?
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Post by kencoolidge on Sept 3, 2012 17:23:37 GMT -5
Many atrocities have been committed over the last 2000 years using the bible as justification. However, obeying the following teaching of Jesus has made the world a better place: ........................ .......................... .......................... ..................... Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” The third commandment which some have a hard time keeping Love one another as I have loved you! ken
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Post by kiwi on Sept 4, 2012 0:36:48 GMT -5
Sorry -- I will re-phraze. "I read what was written about Jesus promise about this, in the bible ... so I checked it out in myself, and found that it worked well for me" Christian teaching in a nutshell! I thought it was Gods simple truth/religion? I thought that our bodies are His temple? or so the Bible tells me so. And I thought the philosophy was Gods love/divine love? Well I thought
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Post by kiwi on Sept 4, 2012 0:38:03 GMT -5
I'm not sure just what Christianity is, but the trend over the last 1970 or so years seems to be "Follow US and WE follow Christ!" Sort of what like Paul said
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Post by Greg on Sept 4, 2012 4:55:13 GMT -5
I'm not sure just what Christianity is, but the trend over the last 1970 or so years seems to be "Follow US and WE follow Christ!" Sort of what like Paul said Quite telling.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 9:40:57 GMT -5
Christian teaching in a nutshell! No, that's Buddhism, not Christianity. It's how Christian teaching should be though. If that's what you believe then you are more Buddhist than Christian imo. I would rather be regarded by others as a Buddhist and follow the above (christian) spirit expressed by the Dalai Lama, than to self-righteously wave some kind of cross and support the idea of 'Christian' virtue in belittling, despising and killing my fellow man.
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Post by snow on Sept 4, 2012 10:13:56 GMT -5
No, that's Buddhism, not Christianity. It's how Christian teaching should be though. If that's what you believe then you are more Buddhist than Christian imo. I would rather be regarded by others as a Buddhist and follow the above (christian) spirit expressed by the Dalai Lama, than to self-righteously wave some kind of cross and support the idea of 'Christian' virtue in belittling, despising and killing my fellow man. This is completely my observation but here it is, for what it's worth. There are many people who call themselves Christian. But as an outsider I see that protrayed in many different ways. Makes sense I suppose since we are all individuals, interpreting things in our own unique ways. But one thing I have noticed is those who speak of a jealous god and having to obey and all others are lost and I see the god of the Bible. Then I hear other Christians talking about their God of love mercy and forgiveness that they believe in. I don't see the God of the bible as one that is full of love mercy and forgiveness. I see him as more like the first group, jealous and prone to temper tantrums. So here is my thoughts. Those who see their God as love and mercy have transcended the god of the bible and have entered into another realm of understanding. When they call themselves Christians though, it is confusing for those of us on the outside trying to make sense of things on the inside of Christianity. It's like those who have transcended the tribal terror of a God in the bible, have taken on a more universal spirituality that has very much in common with the base of most world religions. That being one of compassion, forgiveness and love. Just my observation of course.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 4, 2012 10:30:14 GMT -5
What I observe is that most of those who claim to be Christians that believe that God is a big meanie are doing so because they are basing their beliefs on the Old Testament.
There were no Christians in the Old Testament.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 12:40:03 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying Matt10. I'm a Christian, not a Biblian. I follow the Christ of the bible, not the bible itself. JO, may I say that for one who claims not to be a 'Biblian', you sure quite a lot of the Bible. A swift survey of your recent posts shows approximately 50% of your posts contain a biblical quotation. That said, your response is kinda lost on me (as was Edgar's). I assume you are saying that you believe in/follow/worship only the God/Jesus of the New Testament and that either (a) you believe that the God of the Old Testament was an entirely different God to that in the NT or (b) you are prepared to overlook the evil committed by the God of the OT as it doesn't fit with the God that you wish to believe in. Either way and without wishing to lose the gist of the thread, you still have to accept that the Christian God is still guilty of standing idly and allowing the sexual abuse of Children to continue despite having the power to prevent it. I'm glad I no longer believe in that kind of God; dare I say it's a very peculiar kind of God for a Christian to choose to believe in. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 12:49:59 GMT -5
Matt10 Perhaps others have a different answer but your question is a tough one and essential to knowing God. I feel there are some litmus tests for those guided by the Holy Spirit and they align with the nature of God. 1. Love for all including those by most as considered the enemy 2. Forgiveness of others no matter what their situation 3. Avoidance of being judgmental 4. An understanding of scripture superior to book type knowledge but have scriptural authority. 5. A desire that for me that is embodied and fulfilled in the prayer of Jabez 6. An understanding of Jesus words concerning the vineyard and what god will do to keep us fruitful JMT ken Ken A good attempt to answer a tough question. Would you settle on the first three? Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 13:02:28 GMT -5
I would rather be regarded by others as a Buddhist and follow the above (christian) spirit expressed by the Dalai Lama, than to self-righteously wave some kind of cross and support the idea of 'Christian' virtue in belittling, despising and killing my fellow man. Edgar I kinda like where you are going with this. Of course what you deem to be the Christian spirit is not unique to Christianity and Christianity certainly does not have a monopoly on it. Would you therefore be content to revise the above statement to 'I would like to be regarded by others as a Buddhist and follow the above spirit expressed by the Dalai Lama.' And just leave it at that; no reference to Christianty, negative or otherwise? Matt10
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Post by snow on Sept 4, 2012 13:03:56 GMT -5
What I observe is that most of those who claim to be Christians that believe that God is a big meanie are doing so because they are basing their beliefs on the Old Testament. There were no Christians in the Old Testament. Well I must agree that the god of the OT is a very different guy than the one protrayed in the NT. Imo, God was not the focus of the NT, but rather Jesus. He was kind of an afterthought that was somehow Jesus' father so important. Of course some think Jesus was God, so I guess that's how the focus on Jesus is justified. In a sense there were no Christians while Jesus was alive either. That came years later when people started to realize he wasn't coming back in their lifetimes and maybe they should start writing things down and getting some rules to abide by going. That's probably why there were so many different gospels, groups etc that all called themselves followers of Christ. The story line hadn't been established as to which one of these groups were the right ones.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 4, 2012 13:25:39 GMT -5
What I observe is that most of those who claim to be Christians that believe that God is a big meanie are doing so because they are basing their beliefs on the Old Testament. There were no Christians in the Old Testament. Well I must agree that the god of the OT is a very different guy than the one protrayed in the NT. Imo, God was not the focus of the NT, but rather Jesus. He was kind of an afterthought that was somehow Jesus' father so important. Of course some think Jesus was God, so I guess that's how the focus on Jesus is justified. In a sense there were no Christians while Jesus was alive either. That came years later when people started to realize he wasn't coming back in their lifetimes and maybe they should start writing things down and getting some rules to abide by going. That's probably why there were so many different gospels, groups etc that all called themselves followers of Christ. The story line hadn't been established as to which one of these groups were the right ones. snow, the New Covenant (New Testament), went into effect when Jesus Resurrected at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended. A Covenant requires blood - under the Old Covenant the blood of animal sacrifice. Jesus' blood was the blood that sealed the New Covenant. The New Covenant of the age of grace under which we are privileged to live. For all the reading you do, I'm surprised that you aren't more familiar with the early and subsequent writings of the Early Fathers of the Church who verify who Jesus was and is - God in the second person of the Holy Trinity. many writings of the ECFs are easily found online there is also this ... www.amazon.com/Four-Witnesses-Early-Church-Words/dp/0898708478(strikeout is error correction - sorry ... )
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 13:41:52 GMT -5
For all the reading you do, I'm surprised that you aren't more familiar with the early and subsequent writings of the Early Fathers of the Church who verify who Jesus was and is - God in the second person of the Holy Trinity. St Anne, Perhaps you can clarify: 1. In what year was this claim verified; 2. Who actually verified this claim; 3. What was it that prompted the attempt to verify this claim; 4. What process was used to verify this claim; and 5. What evidence did they obtain that led them to conclude that this claim could indeed be verified? Matt10
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Post by JO on Sept 4, 2012 14:12:23 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying Matt10. I'm a Christian, not a Biblian. I follow the Christ of the bible, not the bible itself. JO, may I say that for one who claims not to be a 'Biblian', you sure quite a lot of the Bible. A swift survey of your recent posts shows approximately 50% of your posts contain a biblical quotation. That said, your response is kinda lost on me (as was Edgar's). I assume you are saying that you believe in/follow/worship only the God/Jesus of the New Testament and that either (a) you believe that the God of the Old Testament was an entirely different God to that in the NT or (b) you are prepared to overlook the evil committed by the God of the OT as it doesn't fit with the God that you wish to believe in. Either way and without wishing to lose the gist of the thread, you still have to accept that the Christian God is still guilty of standing idly and allowing the sexual abuse of Children to continue despite having the power to prevent it. I'm glad I no longer believe in that kind of God; dare I say it's a very peculiar kind of God for a Christian to choose to believe in. Matt10 Matt10, you have some issues with the God of the Old Testament and I can understand that. I'm not a bible literalist and I'm happy to take from it what works for me and leave the rest. Do you think we should either take literally every last word of the bible, otherwise discard the bible in its entirety? Perhaps there are some bible literalists on TMB who can explain why the God of the Old Testament was sometimes so unlike the Christ of the New Testament. If modern Israel attacked Gaza and totally destroyed all that belongs to the Palestinians there, how would we feel about it? What if the leaders of Israel said it was a message from God that compelled them to do it? Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.Would anyone accept that this was the will of God, or would it be universally condemned as genocide? .................. ...................... ....................... ......................... ................ 1 Samuel 15 15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” 4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. 7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed. 10 Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: 11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the Lord all that night.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 4, 2012 15:42:34 GMT -5
For all the reading you do, I'm surprised that you aren't more familiar with the early and subsequent writings of the Early Fathers of the Church who verify who Jesus was and is - God in the second person of the Holy Trinity. St Anne, Perhaps you can clarify: 1. In what year was this claim verified; 2. Who actually verified this claim; 3. What was it that prompted the attempt to verify this claim; 4. What process was used to verify this claim; and 5. What evidence did they obtain that led them to conclude that this claim could indeed be verified? Matt10 Sorry - I have taken a posting break. A courtesy response - the ECFs speak for themselves. No need for me to clarify or verify. Here's a start - Ignatius is early at 110AD - early to write what had been taught by the Jesus the Christ and believed and taught by his Apostles and those they ordained. ECF Ignatius and others in a brief format in the first link. www.crossroadsinitiative.com/search.html?words=divinity+of+christ&x=0&y=0
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 4, 2012 17:25:46 GMT -5
JO, may I say that for one who claims not to be a 'Biblian', you sure quite a lot of the Bible. A swift survey of your recent posts shows approximately 50% of your posts contain a biblical quotation. That said, your response is kinda lost on me (as was Edgar's). Matt10 Matt10, you have some issues with the God of the Old Testament and I can understand that. If modern Israel attacked Gaza and totally destroyed all that belongs to the Palestinians there, how would we feel about it?
What if the leaders of Israel said it was a message from God that compelled them to do it?Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.Would anyone accept that this was the will of God, or would it be universally condemned as genocide? .................. ...................... ....................... ......................... ................ 1 Samuel 15 15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” 4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. 7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed. 10 Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: 11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the Lord all that night. JO. I like your post.
The quote from Samuel is one of my favorites to explain my reasons for being an atheist![/
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Post by sharonw on Sept 4, 2012 18:40:19 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying Matt10. I'm a Christian, not a Biblian. I follow the Christ of the bible, not the bible itself. JO, may I say that for one who claims not to be a 'Biblian', you sure quite a lot of the Bible. A swift survey of your recent posts shows approximately 50% of your posts contain a biblical quotation. That said, your response is kinda lost on me (as was Edgar's). I assume you are saying that you believe in/follow/worship only the God/Jesus of the New Testament and that either (a) you believe that the God of the Old Testament was an entirely different God to that in the NT or (b) you are prepared to overlook the evil committed by the God of the OT as it doesn't fit with the God that you wish to believe in. Either way and without wishing to lose the gist of the thread, you still have to accept that the Christian God is still guilty of standing idly and allowing the sexual abuse of Children to continue despite having the power to prevent it. I'm glad I no longer believe in that kind of God; dare I say it's a very peculiar kind of God for a Christian to choose to believe in. Matt10 Actually Matt 10, the OT God IS the same as the NT God...the difference is that as it were, God's Word in the OT had not taken on human flesh, so perhaps a lack of understanding of what He had created because man had free choice and bad decisions made God feel bad....it does say several times that God repented of His ire towards those who had sinned against Him. So the NT "God" known to most as Jesus or Emmanuel had flesh He had to live with and understand...so His tolerance was much higher for fractions that in the OT He had to repent of His ire for.
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