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Post by JO on May 20, 2012 23:36:32 GMT -5
Faith and belief are often confused.
Saving faith is walking with God, a father/child relationship with God.
Abraham had the conscious guidance of God's hand.
Belief is often a head full of knowledge while faith is a heart full of love.
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Post by sacerdotal on May 21, 2012 5:59:21 GMT -5
Not really. Give it another thought. I like it! Sure, let's work through this. First of all, faith is no virtue. Faith has probably caused as many problems as it has solved. Faith is based on evidence but evidence does not guarantee truth. Faith often results from false evidence which is a guarantee of deception and misery. The fact that Linford has evidence of the unseen does not make the unseen factual, it only makes the evidence factual. What's worse, faith leads to the seeing of evidence exactly how Linford claims. That is, if you believe something enough, you will start seeing all kinds of evidence for it. Like ghosts, UFO's, the Illuminati and that Elvis is still in the building. That's how faith can be "rewarded" : with delusion. Faith is nothing to be trifled with. It can destroy you as easily as it can save you. Just make sure your evidence is good and sound. But even if your evidence is good and sound, the object of your faith will never be fact as Linford claims, otherwise it is no longer faith. +1
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on May 21, 2012 6:36:14 GMT -5
Not really. Give it another thought. I like it! Sure, let's work through this. First of all, faith is no virtue. Faith has probably caused as many problems as it has solved. Faith is based on evidence but evidence does not guarantee truth. Faith often results from false evidence which is a guarantee of deception and misery. The fact that Linford has evidence of the unseen does not make the unseen factual, it only makes the evidence factual. What's worse, faith leads to the seeing of evidence exactly how Linford claims. That is, if you believe something enough, you will start seeing all kinds of evidence for it. Like ghosts, UFO's, the Illuminati and that Elvis is still in the building. That's how faith can be "rewarded" : with delusion. Faith is nothing to be trifled with. It can destroy you as easily as it can save you. Just make sure your evidence is good and sound. But even if your evidence is good and sound, the object of your faith will never be fact as Linford claims, otherwise it is no longer faith. What is the reward of faith? We are more of a faithless generation. We have to see the evidence now. True faith believes the evidence isn't always seen now. Many peoople had faith in the coming of the Messiah,but never saw the evidence when it did come.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2012 7:13:32 GMT -5
Facts are truths which are based on proof.
Sound faith is a belief in a stated truth based on sound evidence but without proof.
Unsound faith is a belief in a stated truth based on false evidence and no proof.
Blind faith is a belief in a stated truth based on no evidence and no proof.
Faith is powerful. It can move mountains out of your way or bring them down on your head.
It is better to remain faithless if your faith is destructive or blind.
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Post by sharonw on May 21, 2012 8:21:40 GMT -5
Sure, let's work through this. First of all, faith is no virtue. Faith has probably caused as many problems as it has solved. Faith is based on evidence but evidence does not guarantee truth. Faith often results from false evidence which is a guarantee of deception and misery. The fact that Linford has evidence of the unseen does not make the unseen factual, it only makes the evidence factual. What's worse, faith leads to the seeing of evidence exactly how Linford claims. That is, if you believe something enough, you will start seeing all kinds of evidence for it. Like ghosts, UFO's, the Illuminati and that Elvis is still in the building. That's how faith can be "rewarded" : with delusion. Faith is nothing to be trifled with. It can destroy you as easily as it can save you. Just make sure your evidence is good and sound. But even if your evidence is good and sound, the object of your faith will never be fact as Linford claims, otherwise it is no longer faith. What is the reward of faith? We are more of a faithless generation. We have to see the evidence now. True faith believes the evidence isn't always seen now. Many peoople had faith in the coming of the Messiah,but never saw the evidence when it did come. Absolutely! Faith IS the substance of "hope" of things not yet seen. Faith usually does mean that the person is hoping for something positive. But often people's faith in the wrong things can lead them into a maze or worse, a negative thing. NOW back to "faith in the living God"....THAT faith is a gift from above, it is pure, it is simple, it is positive. Our problem in this golden age of quick information is that we look for instant gratification and this kind of thing can destroy the divine faith given from above. For salvation, Faith IS believing in our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ....believing that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever "believeth" in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. So technically in human terms, the "divine faith" is often undividable from "believing" in Jesus Christ. So technically faith Is belief. It is only possible for our faith to be increased from God's hand not from what we do nor what happens around us...and still I'm speaking to salvation faith! God IS love, so our most important thing is to obey the first two commandments of God loving HIM with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. Then also loving our brothers and sisters as ourselves. If we want an increase of salvation faith, we can ask in Jesus' name and it will be increased from heaven...the gift will extend and expand.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on May 21, 2012 8:59:08 GMT -5
What is the reward of faith? We are more of a faithless generation. We have to see the evidence now. True faith believes the evidence isn't always seen now. Many peoople had faith in the coming of the Messiah,but never saw the evidence when it did come. Absolutely! Faith IS the substance of "hope" of things not yet seen. Faith usually does mean that the person is hoping for something positive. But often people's faith in the wrong things can lead them into a maze or worse, a negative thing. NOW back to "faith in the living God"....THAT faith is a gift from above, it is pure, it is simple, it is positive. Our problem in this golden age of quick information is that we look for instant gratification and this kind of thing can destroy the divine faith given from above. For salvation, Faith IS believing in our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ....believing that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever "believeth" in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. So technically in human terms, the "divine faith" is often undividable from "believing" in Jesus Christ. So technically faith Is belief.It is only possible for our faith to be increased from God's hand not from what we do nor what happens around us...and still I'm speaking to salvation faith! God IS love, so our most important thing is to obey the first two commandments of God loving HIM with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. Then also loving our brothers and sisters as ourselves. If we want an increase of salvation faith, we can ask in Jesus' name and it will be increased from heaven...the gift will extend and expand. The devils believe and tremble. Is that faith?
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Post by emy on May 21, 2012 9:01:38 GMT -5
... The fact that Linford has evidence of the unseen does not make the unseen factual, it only makes the evidence factual. ... That's how I read what he said.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on May 21, 2012 9:18:29 GMT -5
Not really. Give it another thought. I like it! Sure, let's work through this. First of all, faith is no virtue. Faith has probably caused as many problems as it has solved. Faith is based on evidence but evidence does not guarantee truth. Faith often results from false evidence which is a guarantee of deception and misery. The fact that Linford has evidence of the unseen does not make the unseen factual, it only makes the evidence factual.
What's worse, faith leads to the seeing of evidence exactly how Linford claims. That is, if you believe something enough, you will start seeing all kinds of evidence for it. Like ghosts, UFO's, the Illuminati and that Elvis is still in the building. That's how faith can be "rewarded" : with delusion.Faith is nothing to be trifled with. It can destroy you as easily as it can save you. Just make sure your evidence is good and sound. But even if your evidence is good and sound, the object of your faith will never be fact as Linford claims, otherwise it is no longer faith. Jesus said Abraham saw His day and rejoiced in it. That's faith and evidence. Was it delusional? Would Jesus have said it if it was?
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Post by sacerdotal on May 21, 2012 9:39:23 GMT -5
Sure, let's work through this. First of all, faith is no virtue. Faith has probably caused as many problems as it has solved. Faith is based on evidence but evidence does not guarantee truth. Faith often results from false evidence which is a guarantee of deception and misery. The fact that Linford has evidence of the unseen does not make the unseen factual, it only makes the evidence factual.
What's worse, faith leads to the seeing of evidence exactly how Linford claims. That is, if you believe something enough, you will start seeing all kinds of evidence for it. Like ghosts, UFO's, the Illuminati and that Elvis is still in the building. That's how faith can be "rewarded" : with delusion.Faith is nothing to be trifled with. It can destroy you as easily as it can save you. Just make sure your evidence is good and sound. But even if your evidence is good and sound, the object of your faith will never be fact as Linford claims, otherwise it is no longer faith. Jesus said Abraham saw His day and rejoiced in it. That's faith and evidence. Was it delusional? Would Jesus have said it if it was? Are Catholics delusional? Baptists? Mormons- aka Joseph Smith? They have faith in Christ, too, you know. Are the workers right in saying that they are God's only true apostles? Do you have faith in that statement? And that all other preachers are just hirelings and false teachers? Do you have faith in that statement? I think that we are only on solid ground, faith wise, as Christians, if we keep our eyes and faith on Christ and not on man made systems such as the church with no name. After all, is has only been around for a hundred or so years. Man will disappoint us, but Christ, never.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2012 10:27:42 GMT -5
Sure, let's work through this. First of all, faith is no virtue. Faith has probably caused as many problems as it has solved. Faith is based on evidence but evidence does not guarantee truth. Faith often results from false evidence which is a guarantee of deception and misery. The fact that Linford has evidence of the unseen does not make the unseen factual, it only makes the evidence factual.
What's worse, faith leads to the seeing of evidence exactly how Linford claims. That is, if you believe something enough, you will start seeing all kinds of evidence for it. Like ghosts, UFO's, the Illuminati and that Elvis is still in the building. That's how faith can be "rewarded" : with delusion.Faith is nothing to be trifled with. It can destroy you as easily as it can save you. Just make sure your evidence is good and sound. But even if your evidence is good and sound, the object of your faith will never be fact as Linford claims, otherwise it is no longer faith. Jesus said Abraham saw His day and rejoiced in it. That's faith and evidence. Was it delusional? Would Jesus have said it if it was? Faith makes some wonderful things happen. If faith is based on sound evidence and sound reasoning, it is far from delusional. Most human progress has been based sound faith where people had a vision of what the future could be even though they couldn't completely sure it could happen, but it did. North American, NZ and Aust is populated with people who had a vision of faith that a new life in the new world would be better than the old one.......and most were right about that. None of that is delusional. Abraham was clearly a man of faith, some of it was sound, some of it was most likely delusional but he overcame that and changed society forever. The delusion of the righteousness of child sacrifice is something that we can all be grateful for Abraham ending that practice and starting the whole substitutional sacrifice idea. His love for his son was greater than the delusion of faith that led him to almost barbarically killing his own son. Thank goodness he overcame that delusion of faith!
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Post by rational on May 21, 2012 19:30:49 GMT -5
Faith is based on evidence but evidence does not guarantee truth. faith - belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
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Post by kencoolidge on May 21, 2012 19:55:24 GMT -5
Faith is based on evidence but evidence does not guarantee truth. faith - belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.Spot on Rational ken
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 7:51:44 GMT -5
faith - belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. Spot on Rational ken Of course there is no "material" evidence for spiritual beliefs. Spirits are not made of material substances. That's pretty self-evident. However, if someone believes in God and says that they have never seen any evidence for God's existence, I would have to wonder what they are smoking. Personally, I see evidence of God all around me every day, and that's why I believe in God....because of the evidence, not because of what I am smoking.
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Post by rational on May 22, 2012 11:11:34 GMT -5
Personally, I see evidence of God all around me every day, and that's why I believe in God....because of the evidence, not because of what I am smoking. Perhaps 'evidence' is the word that needs the focus.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 18:34:04 GMT -5
Personally, I see evidence of God all around me every day, and that's why I believe in God....because of the evidence, not because of what I am smoking. Perhaps 'evidence' is the word that needs the focus. Just focus on the "proof" aspect and you'll have no more trouble with the rather shallow online definition you have used. If you study the history of the concept of faith, you will find that there is far more to it than your definition. At various times in history, the term faith has been closely associated with "hope'' and "trust" in varying degrees. All faith is based on evidence and reason, except blind faith and delusional faith. Faith deals with matters for which the evidence available does not provide sufficient proof to settle it as truth. "As C. S. Lewis said, most of the things you believe are believed on authority, secondary evidence, etc. For example, you may never have actually seen a molecule, but you have no doubt that molecules exist. Even more to the point, we are confident that things like gravity, time, the laws of logic, and true love exist even though we cannot see them. Of course, experience and rational investigation should increase your confidence in what is true."
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Post by dmmichgood on May 22, 2012 19:04:20 GMT -5
Perhaps 'evidence' is the word that needs the focus. All faith is based on evidence and reason, except blind faith and delusional faith. NO FAITH IS NOT BASED ON EVIDENCE AND REASON!
That is corruption of the word "faith" in order to suit yourself. The very opposite is true!
Fo the love of TRUTH! just look the meaning up in a dictionary or encycolpedia!
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 20:17:51 GMT -5
All faith is based on evidence and reason, except blind faith and delusional faith. NO FAITH IS NOT BASED ON EVIDENCE AND REASON!
That is corruption of the word "faith" in order to suit yourself. The very opposite is true!
Fo the love of TRUTH! just look the meaning up in a dictionary or encycolpedia! I have studied it fairly extensively. For heaven sakes dmmi, get your head out of online dictionaries! I think the atheists have corrupted the dictionaries! Peter in Acts 22 calls for evidentiary faith: "Peter's primary appeal here was threefold: 1.He appealed to the evidence of the wonders and signs performed by Jesus; 2.he appealed to the empty tomb, 3.and he appealed to fulfillment of OT prophecy. In short, his appeals were evidentiary. One of course might wish to dispute the validity of the evidence, but in context this is beside the point. The point is that Peter grounded belief in Christianity on evidence -- or, as the definition of pistis in Acts 17:31 would put it, proofs."
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Post by rational on May 22, 2012 21:03:37 GMT -5
Just focus on the "proof" aspect and you'll have no more trouble with the rather shallow online definition you have used. If you add enough to any definition you can spin the meaning to whatever you wish. If you want to consider a definition different from those commonly displayed in the lowly online dictionaries you only need to state your definition. Yes, and if I were living 1,000 years ago I would use the definition that applied then. However I am living today and using the shallow vernacular definitions that are available. And in some little hamlet in northern Iran at one time there is a probability that faith may have meant 'absolute truth'. So this is your working definition of faith? Belief based on evidence and reason? Could you give an example of something that is supported by evidence but cannot be proved? Of course, Lewis could not have known that some molecules are visible to the naked eye. No, they cannot be seen but they can be demonstrated and independently tested. Well, with the exception of love, which needs to be accepted on faith! Independent verification, falsification, reproducibility also add to the evidence.
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Post by rational on May 22, 2012 21:24:40 GMT -5
I have studied it fairly extensively. For heaven sakes dmmi, get your head out of online dictionaries! I think the atheists have corrupted the dictionaries! Yes, by making people use them. The belief in the Cottingley fairies was grounded on the evidence of five photographs taken by Elsie Wright and Frances Griffiths. Peter had a mixture of oral/written stories and Elsie and Frances had photographs. Yet in both cases there was no evidence.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 22, 2012 21:44:53 GMT -5
NO FAITH IS NOT BASED ON EVIDENCE AND REASON!
That is corruption of the word "faith" in order to suit yourself. The very opposite is true!
Fo the love of TRUTH! just look the meaning up in a dictionary or encycolpedia! I have studied it fairly extensively. For heaven sakes dmmi, get your head out of online dictionaries! Oh dear, I'm sorry- but I thought THAT is where reality is!I think the atheists have corrupted the dictionaries! Oh poor baby! I'm sorry to upset your apple cart. Seriously, but did you ever give it thought that by insisting that "faith" NEEDS evidence that you are NOT really trusting god?]
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 22:16:27 GMT -5
Ok, let's quit fooling around here and take a serious look at the dictionary. Webster's has two primary definitions, either one I am fine with:
1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony.
2. The assent of the mind to the statement or proposition of another, on the ground of the manifest truth of what he utters; firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of any kind, especially in regard to important moral truth.
You can see that evidence is a key part of faith, according Webster's.
They bring in a couple of religious definitions:
3. (Judeo-Christian Theol.) The belief in the historic truthfulness of the Scripture narrative, and the supernatural origin of its teachings, sometimes called historical and speculative faith.
4. (Theol.) That which is believed on any subject, whether in science, politics, or religion; especially (Theol.), a system of religious belief of any kind; as, the Jewish or Mohammedan faith; the Christian faith; also, the creed or belief of a Christian society or church.
You two atheists want to convince readers here that their faith is irrational, delusional, or just plain stupid. It isn't. Believers believe for a reason, not just mindless superstition.
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Post by emy on May 22, 2012 23:05:51 GMT -5
Amen
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Post by dmmichgood on May 23, 2012 16:27:42 GMT -5
Ok, let's quit fooling around here and take a serious look at the dictionary. Webster's has two primary definitions, either one I am fine with: 1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by[b] another,[/b][/[/color]i] resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony.[/color][/color][/color]2. 2] The assent of the mind to the statement or proposition of another,[/color] on the ground of the manifest truth of what he utters; firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of any kind, especially in regard to important moral truth.Look at the word ANOTHER in the definitions. that means someone else's belief.You can see that evidence is a key part of faith, according Webster's. Look at the word PROBABLE evidence in your definition. They bring in a couple of religious definitions: 3. (Judeo-Christian Theol.) The belief in the historic truthfulness of the Scripture narrative, and the supernatural origin of its teachings, sometimes called historical and speculative faith. 4. (Theol.) That which is believed on any subject, whether in science, politics, or religion; especially (Theol.), a system of religious belief of any kind; as, the Jewish or Mohammedan faith; the Christian faith; also, the creed or belief of a Christian society or church. You two atheists want to convince readers here that their faith is irrational, delusional, or just plain stupid. It isn't. Believers believe for a reason, not just mindless superstition
FAITH IS NOT BUILT ON EVIDENCE & REASON
You're building faith, not on evidence & reason, but on a belief system of someone else.
I could "believe" that there are bogarts & little men dressed in brown, running around causing havock during the night when we are asleep. I could try & convince you that what I believe is true.
You might have [b]faith[/b][/i] that what I believe is true but there is really no EVIDENCE that that is true, only that I believe. Neither is it REASONABLE. Can you agree with that ?[/color].[/quote]
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Post by dmmichgood on May 23, 2012 16:29:45 GMT -5
Geeze, this thread was started calling it a 3 hour conversation!
It sure is living up to the name!
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Post by Greg on May 23, 2012 16:36:49 GMT -5
Geeze, this thread was started calling it a 3 hour conversation! It sure is living up to the name! Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale, a tale of a fateful trip, That started from this tropic port, aboard this tiny ship. The mate was a mighty sailin' man, the Skipper brave and sure. Five passengers set sail that day for a three hour tour. A three hour tour. www.gilligansisle.com/theme.html
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on May 26, 2012 4:49:23 GMT -5
I had a 3 hour conversation this morning with a man that lives near me. It was just the conversation I needed, to speak with a brother at a similar point in his life, with the same convictions that I have been given via a totally different path in life. It truly was like talking to a brother or a close friend that I may have known all my life. But he was a stranger. But via the Spirit we were brothers. Hey Sacer .. .the coffee will be on in about an hour. ..c'mon over and we'll sit around the table.. .the Belgian chocolate toffee creamer adds much .. . ...and bring Matt and Rat with ya, tho ya might wanna bring a cushion if they're comin' ..it may take awhile ..
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Post by sacerdotal on May 26, 2012 8:08:47 GMT -5
I had a 3 hour conversation this morning with a man that lives near me. It was just the conversation I needed, to speak with a brother at a similar point in his life, with the same convictions that I have been given via a totally different path in life. It truly was like talking to a brother or a close friend that I may have known all my life. But he was a stranger. But via the Spirit we were brothers. Hey Sacer .. .the coffee will be on in about an hour. ..c'mon over and we'll sit around the table.. .the Belgian chocolate toffee creamer adds much .. . ...and bring Matt and Rat with ya, tho ya might wanna bring a cushion if they're comin' ..it may take awhile .. Sounds like fun! I bet we would have some great fellowship.
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