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Post by sharonw on Mar 22, 2012 18:06:31 GMT -5
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The Holy Spirit was imparted after the resurrection of the Son. The Spirit of God in this verse is still the role of the Father, creating the universe. So you believe that this verse is not really saying that the Holy Ghost was present, doing but that it was the "Father"? Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Eli sabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 18:20:11 GMT -5
I think some Trinnies will disagree with you on that. For me, I dunno. Well, for one, Jesus had "not happened".....though I have to say the "Holy Spirit or Ghost had happened for a select few! Otherwise, those who understood that there was an "us" in the Godhead.....maybe just took that on faith that when God found it okay to reveal the "us" in the creating picture that He would reveal it...which He has to some...probably more then not revealed to. Ok, so we don't have the Son until Jesus was born. That actually makes some sense. The Spirit is a bit more confusing. Quizzer says no Holy Spirit until after Jesus was gone, you say Holy Spirit are around at least as early as Elizabeth. Can we pinpoint a time for the creation of the Holy Spirit? Regardless, you are both saying that there was no Trinity until about 2000 years ago, and it was all a single, one person God from prior to creation until that time?
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Post by JO on Mar 22, 2012 18:21:25 GMT -5
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The Holy Spirit was imparted after the resurrection of the Son. The Spirit of God in this verse is still the role of the Father, creating the universe. You mean the spirit of God and God the Spirit are different?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 18:33:48 GMT -5
Your comment goes to the whole genesis of this thread- why can't or why don't the friends really speak the doctrine as it REALLY IS to the unsaved/unprofessing? Why must we hide our beautiful truth under a bed? If it is true, then why not talk about it openly? Are we insecure? Fearful? Deluding our selves? When you talk about 'unadulterated 2x2 doctrine' or 'the doctrine as it REALLY IS' it seems to me you are referring to various things the workers have told you. You feel most or many of the friends hide this or don't talk about it or don't mention it. In my experience there are two reasons for this. One is like David and the armour. He hadn't proved it so he didn't use it. I don't talk about or tell others about things I haven't proved for myself, that are not real to me. The other is that I don't believe it. There are some things the workers say that I don't believe or agree with so of course I'm not going to be telling people about it. You might say that is deceitful as prospective members of the fellowship should know what the workers believe, but unity of belief doesn't actually exist and isn't important in this fellowship, unity is in the Spirit. The Spirit alone teaches and will guide into all truth in God's time. In conversations I've had about faith, people aren't interested in what I've been told or taught by other men. They want to know what I believe, what experiences I've had with God, what has been real to me.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 22, 2012 18:34:45 GMT -5
Well, for one, Jesus had "not happened".....though I have to say the "Holy Spirit or Ghost had happened for a select few! Otherwise, those who understood that there was an "us" in the Godhead.....maybe just took that on faith that when God found it okay to reveal the "us" in the creating picture that He would reveal it...which He has to some...probably more then not revealed to. Ok, so we don't have the Son until Jesus was born. That actually makes some sense. The Spirit is a bit more confusing. Quizzer says no Holy Spirit until after Jesus was gone, you say Holy Spirit are around at least as early as Elizabeth. Can we pinpoint a time for the creation of the Holy Spirit? Regardless, you are both saying that there was no Trinity until about 2000 years ago, and it was all a single, one person God from prior to creation until that time? I thought we were talking about when man begin to understand the 3 persons in "God"? The Holy Spirit was with God in Gen. 1 and so was the Word...Now I said "Jesus" hadn't happened and few people understand that from the "beginning" of time that the Word taking on flesh IS Jesus in the NT...but the Word was with God the Father and the Holy Spirit in Gen. 1 Now is that more confusing...let's go back to talking ab out when MANKIND became aware of the 3 persons in God...okay...you already know what Gen. says but are not able to relate it to the 3 persons in God as you don't understand that Jesus was actually "God" BEFORE He was incarnated as a babe in Mary's virginal womb.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 18:43:02 GMT -5
I am repeating EXACTLY what the workers say and the friends profess to believe. I am one of the friends. I love this fellowship. But I will not lie or be dishonest about our beliefs just to pull a bait-and-switch to win converts. I spoke with an overseer the other day- I thought that perhaps he had softened on the "we are the only true preachers and this is the only right way" belief. Wrong. He let me know good and quick that he would seriously worry about any of the friends that did not believe such. Does stating the truth in mixed company without equivocation cause the friends to squirm? Sure, but the real question is, why is that? Why are we afraid to state our true doctrine? I love the friends and workers- but I hate the doctrine(s)/rules that we can't speak about openly and honestly. Something is wrong with the doctrine/rules if that is the case, or so I believe. You talk about 'our beliefs'. Do you have any personal beliefs or is it just what you've been told? What is truth to you? Is it everything that workers say? What you've been taught in meetings? Do workers always speak the truth in meetings and if not how do you know the difference? Has God ever revealed anything to you personally like Peter when Jesus said 'flesh and blood hasn't revealed this unto thee but my father...'? If that overseer had softened would you have had to revise your own beliefs? Why would truth cause anyone to squirm? Maybe you are referring to things you can't find in the Bible?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 18:44:49 GMT -5
Ok, so we don't have the Son until Jesus was born. That actually makes some sense. The Spirit is a bit more confusing. Quizzer says no Holy Spirit until after Jesus was gone, you say Holy Spirit are around at least as early as Elizabeth. Can we pinpoint a time for the creation of the Holy Spirit? Regardless, you are both saying that there was no Trinity until about 2000 years ago, and it was all a single, one person God from prior to creation until that time? I thought we were talking about when man begin to understand the 3 persons in "God"? The Holy Spirit was with God in Gen. 1 and so was the Word...Now I said "Jesus" hadn't happened and few people understand that from the "beginning" of time that the Word taking on flesh IS Jesus in the NT...but the Word was with God the Father and the Holy Spirit in Gen. 1 Now is that more confusing...let's go back to talking ab out when MANKIND became aware of the 3 persons in God...okay...you already know what Gen. says but are not able to relate it to the 3 persons in God as you don't understand that Jesus was actually "God" BEFORE He was incarnated as a babe in Mary's virginal womb. Ok, so the three person God existed before Jesus the man, but nobody about knew about them until after Jesus?
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Post by JO on Mar 22, 2012 18:47:11 GMT -5
In the following scripture God, the Word of God, and the Spirit of God are revealed.
1. "God" was there in the beginning.
2. God spoke, so we have "the Word of God" resulting in action.
3. The "Spirit of God" moved.
One God, one "person".
Genesis 1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
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Post by JO on Mar 22, 2012 19:00:33 GMT -5
You talk about 'our beliefs'. Do you have any personal beliefs or is it just what you've been told? What is truth to you? Is it everything that workers say? What you've been taught in meetings? Do workers always speak the truth in meetings and if not how do you know the difference? Has God ever revealed anything to you personally like Peter when Jesus said 'flesh and blood hasn't revealed this unto thee but my father...'? If that overseer had softened would you have had to revise your own beliefs? Why would truth cause anyone to squirm? Maybe you are referring to things you can't find in the Bible? You're on safe ground YesMan. I've seen an awakening amongst some workers to this, it shows in their preaching and in their behaviour. Religious theory can't create a relationship with God, whether it be Catholic, Calvinist, or 2x2. =========================================== John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. Acts 4:20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 22, 2012 19:03:52 GMT -5
You appear to be responding with quotes (some quite ancient) and ideas that you apparently don't agree in a way that makes it look like you do believe it What are the ancient quotes that I used? Me too. That is what this whole thread is about. Why can't we have truthful dialogue about what we believe (or question) without fear of censure.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 19:06:27 GMT -5
In the following scripture God, the Word of God, and the Spirit of God are revealed. 1. "God" was there in the beginning. 2. God spoke, so we have "the Word of God" resulting in action. 3. The "Spirit of God" moved. One God, one "person". Genesis 1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. That sounds dangerously easy to understand. Surely it can't be that simple......
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 22, 2012 19:11:11 GMT -5
The other is that I don't believe it. There are some things the workers say that I don't believe or agree with so of course I'm not going to be telling people about it. You seem like a nice person, Yesman. I appreciate your 2 recent replies. I don't believe most of the core doctrinal issues: 1) the so-called 2x2 way is the only way to Christ 2) the workers are the only true preachers 3) outward appearances indicate inward righteousness (or wickedness as the case may be) 4) visiting the hardy saints to show approval and ignoring/shunning the weaker (less hardy) saints to show disapproval 5) workers not marrying as a requirement of a New Testament ministry But, to talk with a overseer about these things (as in tell him the truth about what you believe) is a sure way to get excommunicated via social isolation and loss of worker visits and the accompanying spiritual killing. Another topic that is also denied and off limits.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 19:20:45 GMT -5
The other is that I don't believe it. There are some things the workers say that I don't believe or agree with so of course I'm not going to be telling people about it. You seem like a nice person, Yesman. I appreciate your 2 recent replies. I don't believe most of the core doctrinal issues: 1) the so-called 2x2 way is the only way to Christ 2) the workers are the only true preachers 3) outward appearances indicate inward righteousness (or wickedness as the case may be) 4) visiting the hardy saints to show approval and ignoring/shunning the weaker (less hardy) saints to show disapproval 5) workers not marrying as a requirement of a New Testament ministry But, to talk with a overseer about these things (as in tell him the truth about what you believe) is a sure way to get excommunicated via social isolation and loss of worker visits and the accompanying spiritual killing. Another topic that is also denied and off limits. I suspected your true position and was engaging your posts to try and draw it out. Why discuss with an overseer? The only reasons I can see are if we are insecure in our beliefs and need agreement from someone we look up to or if the overseer is directly affecting our life by his beliefs. Romans 14:1 accept one who is weak in faith without quarreling over disputable matters. v5: be fully persuaded in your own mind. v19: Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. v22: Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. v23: everything that isn't from faith is sin.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 19:38:44 GMT -5
You appear to be responding with quotes (some quite ancient) and ideas that you apparently don't agree in a way that makes it look like you do believe it What are the ancient quotes that I used? Me too. That is what this whole thread is about. Why can't we have truthful dialogue about what we believe (or question) without fear of censure. Dale S's comment re obeying workers from the Alberta ex-comm disaster is .... how old now? So, be the change you want to see happen.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 22, 2012 19:41:11 GMT -5
Romans 14:1 accept one who is weak in faith without quarreling over disputable matters. I would assume that this is talking about being weak in faith in Jesus. And NOT being weak in faith in accepting the workers as God's only true servants and accepting their authority blindly and without condition as they ask for us to do.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 22, 2012 19:46:02 GMT -5
What are the ancient quotes that I used? Me too. That is what this whole thread is about. Why can't we have truthful dialogue about what we believe (or question) without fear of censure. Dale S's comment re obeying workers from the Alberta ex-comm disaster is .... how old now? So, be the change you want to see happen. Have you seen him apologize for what he wrote? Or another worker apologize for him? Have you seen anything in writing or DEED that indicates that the overseers are a little more humble and are learning to be the greatest that they have to learn to be the least? I haven't. I have heard in their recent convention messages that they are concerned by those that want to seek to lessen their "authority". The problem is that many of them (most?) take the attitude that tough (tough, as in, hard for them to answer) questions are an affront to their authority.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 22, 2012 19:53:16 GMT -5
How are you 'so different then all of the others'? That's a great question, Scott. Listing the items out makes one look like the Pharisee that was glad that he wasn't like other sinners. I have the Spirit of God in-dwelling. I don't smoke. I don't drink. I don't do drugs. I drive a Chevy. I don't drive a motorcycle. I meet in a home as the first churches did. I follow God's true servants. I don't cuss. I pray. I read my bible. I don't listen to worldly preachers. I help others. I follow the spirit. I don't beat my wife or kids. I wash my car. I'm a good neighbor. I change the oil in my car every 3,000 miles I don't gamble or buy lottery tickets I don't visit anti-truth sites like the TMB
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Post by JO on Mar 22, 2012 20:25:53 GMT -5
That sounds dangerously easy to understand. Surely it can't be that simple...... ~~ Y'SHUAH/Jesus came from heaven to reveal Godhead more clearly to His disciples.... God the Father, Y'SHUAH/Jesus himself, and the Holy Spirit= Godhead so, we can worship God in spirit and in truth.
No Nate, that's not what Jesus came for. Knowledge of religious theory puffs up the ego and makes people feel clever but it doesn't bring them into a closer relationship with God the Father and his son Jesus Christ.
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Post by JO on Mar 22, 2012 20:29:15 GMT -5
Dale S's comment re obeying workers from the Alberta ex-comm disaster is .... how old now? So, be the change you want to see happen. If Dale and his fellow workers have repented from this error that's the best news I've heard for a long time. I'd be very happy to leave it in the past and move on. Can we expect to hear of some apologies to those who were spiritually abused?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 20:34:54 GMT -5
Dale S's comment re obeying workers from the Alberta ex-comm disaster is .... how old now? So, be the change you want to see happen. If Dale and his fellow workers have repented from this error that's the best news I've heard for a long time. I'd be very happy to leave it in the past and move on. Can we expect to hear of some apologies to those who were spiritually abused? A year or two after all the excommunications, one of Dale's senior staff workers stated, as a matter-of-fact: "This ministry will never admit it is wrong."
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 22, 2012 22:10:28 GMT -5
In the following scripture God, the Word of God, and the Spirit of God are revealed. 1. "God" was there in the beginning. 2. God spoke, so we have "the Word of God" resulting in action. 3. The "Spirit of God" moved. One God, one "person". Genesis 1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 1. Jesus was also there in the beginning. 2. Jesus was also The Word. The spirit of God moved. The spirit - the 3rd person of the trinity. God also said, let us make me in our image. Who is the 'us' and 'our' if it is not God. They were all there in the beginning. Jesus helped make the world. Did Jesus just become the Son when he came to earth or was he always there? My Bible says he was there from the beginning.
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Post by JO on Mar 22, 2012 22:40:02 GMT -5
We can't get past the first three verses of the bible before man starts to complicate it.
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Post by JO on Mar 22, 2012 23:40:19 GMT -5
This is VERY SAD how some of the workers are teaching.... Nathan, you and other trinitarians only teach this dogma because the Catholic Church invented it. I doubt you would have come up with it by yourself. I personally believe most workers have got it right. If the 2x2 church fell for the trinity I'd be out of there in a heartbeat.
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Post by JO on Mar 22, 2012 23:50:44 GMT -5
Nathan, you harm your own credibility by quoting this stuff from Kathy Lewis.
If she read Hymns Old & New she'd realise that Jesus is regularly addressed as "Lord", which makes the following statement rather silly:
...they don’t really view Jesus as being much different than any other human being believer who is filled with the Spirit. They often refer to Jesus as our elder brother, inferring that He is a human child of God just as other humans, and our perfect example of what God wants all His children to be.
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Post by JO on Mar 23, 2012 0:55:36 GMT -5
Nathan, I don't believe a worker would use the expression "God the Father sent God the Son to be a mediator".
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 23, 2012 4:03:06 GMT -5
Nathan, I don't believe a worker would use the expression "God the Father sent God the Son to be a mediator". JO Do you consider Paul a worker? ken
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Post by JO on Mar 23, 2012 4:59:42 GMT -5
Ken, can you quote chapter and verse where Paul referred to "God the Son"?
He was more inclined to refer to "God the Father and his son Jesus Christ" than your three-person God.
Trinitarianism sure seems like a cult to me. Its like, "if you're not for us you're against us".
Anyone who doesn't go along with this man-made doctrine is accused of treating Jesus as "just a man".
Before trinitarians rush to accuse friends and workers of treating Jesus like a man, I suggest you go through Hymns Old & New and think about how Jesus is treated there, which is typically Lord and Saviour.
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Post by tank on Mar 23, 2012 7:10:43 GMT -5
How are you 'so different then all of the others'? That's a great question, Scott. Listing the items out makes one look like the Pharisee that was glad that he wasn't like other sinners. I have the Spirit of God in-dwelling. I don't smoke. I don't drink. I don't do drugs. I drive a Chevy. I don't drive a motorcycle. I meet in a home as the first churches did. I follow God's true servants. I don't cuss. I pray. I read my bible. I don't listen to worldly preachers. I help others. I follow the spirit. I don't beat my wife or kids. I wash my car. I'm a good neighbor. I change the oil in my car every 3,000 miles I don't gamble or buy lottery tickets I don't visit anti-truth sites like the TMB My list is much, much smaller. Is riding a motorcycle considered a sin like the coloring of the hair?
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