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Post by breakingfree on Mar 22, 2012 9:51:04 GMT -5
Nathan, if Old Testament scripture is clear about a three-person God I wonder why we don't hear much about it from Jewish scholars? Because they do not believe in the NT nor do they believe on Jesus Christ! They are still living according to the OT laws and as Paul and other Apostles wrote that as long as one is held in bondage to the OT law, then that is what they will live and die by.
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Post by quizzer on Mar 22, 2012 9:54:09 GMT -5
I wonder what God's name was before there was a Hebrew language. I am.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 9:57:42 GMT -5
As Dale Schultz warned before regarding the Canada excommunication- we must not lose our respect for these men or the position of worker. I am taught by the workers that God will handle his ministry- the friends are leaving their place if they ever dare speak against a worker. As the workers have told us before, "You didn't hire me, and you can't fire me." And aren't we glad for that. The workers are like the watchmen, standing true and firm on the watchtowers, guarding our souls. They do not give in to popular opinion or preach to people with "itching ears" but they deliver truth to us and care for us- they are giving their lives for us. What other denomination do you know that have such sacrificing men and women?The 9/11 terrorists sacrificed a lot. Catholic nuns. Buddhist monks. Two Baptist missionaries were murdered in Mexico-they sacrificed. Youcef Nadarkhani, a Christian pastor in Iran is facing a death sentence. Go to missionary-blogs.com to find many missionaries who are sacrificing much. The majority of workers are given the best and live in comfort and ease. Hardly a sacrifice. If I were you, I wouldn't pay much attention to TS in sacerdotal clothing. It's a waste of time.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 10:52:32 GMT -5
I wonder what God's name was before there was a Hebrew language. I am. Cool. I didn't know that English predated Hebrew! Learn something new every day!
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 22, 2012 11:03:09 GMT -5
The 9/11 terrorists sacrificed a lot. Catholic nuns. Buddhist monks. Two Baptist missionaries were murdered in Mexico-they sacrificed. Youcef Nadarkhani, a Christian pastor in Iran is facing a death sentence. Go to missionary-blogs.com to find many missionaries who are sacrificing much. The majority of workers are given the best and live in comfort and ease. Hardly a sacrifice. If I were you, I wouldn't pay much attention to TS in sacerdotal clothing. It's a waste of time. I found your comment enlightening, HBerry. I find it interesting the I can honestly repeat what I have been taught by the workers, but when it is presented in "mixed" company- our core beliefs are suddenly equivocated to meaningless gibberish that make the 2x2 fellowship seem just like any other fellowship. When was the last time that you went up to a worker and stated the following: "I do not believe that the workers are God's only true servants." (FYI- I had a conversation with an overseer friend of mine the other day- he still very much believes that the Truth is the only right way and the workers God's only true servants. I appreciated that there was no equivocation with him. He believes what he believes and he doesn't apologize for that- and nor should he.) When was the last time that you went up to an overseer and asked, "You know, you workers need to be more accountable to the friends. Why is it so difficult to remove sexually misbehaving workers from the ministry? Why don't the workers tell us how much money they have collected and that is available for use? Why don't the workers get married- even though it is more scriptural then not being? Why are the "weak" ("weak" meaning those that do not fully buy into the 2x2 doctrine) friends socially isolated?" Your comment goes to the whole genesis of this thread- why can't or why don't the friends really speak the doctrine as it REALLY IS to the unsaved/unprofessing? Why must we hide our beautiful truth under a bed? If it is true, then why not talk about it openly? Are we insecure? Fearful? Deluding our selves?
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Post by tank on Mar 22, 2012 11:23:17 GMT -5
Sacredotal
I have a question for you since you still attend fellowship meeting and I am sure you also attend gospel meetings too.
What form of outreach do the workers have in your area? Do they go door to door speaking and inviting everyone to meetings, or are your gospel meetings only for those on the inside? Do you take neighbors and outside friends to the meetings? If not why?
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Post by ScholarGal on Mar 22, 2012 11:27:44 GMT -5
If I were you, I wouldn't pay much attention to TS in sacerdotal clothing. It's a waste of time. I found your comment enlightening, HBerry. I find it interesting the I can honestly repeat what I have been taught by the workers, but when it is presented in "mixed" company- our core beliefs are suddenly equivocated to meaningless gibberish that make the 2x2 fellowship seem just like any other fellowship. The problem is not that you are repeating what the workers say. The problem with your posts is the same problem I saw in the posts of TS. You repeat what the workers say in some posts, but the way you write other posts indicates that you don't actually agree with what the workers said. When we read what you write on a message board, we can't hear tone of voice or see body language. Consequently, your posts can be interpreted as mocking, insincere, or hypocritical. I'm honest with people--and with workers--that I don't believe exactly as they do. Some people will say I "don't get it", some people will say I'm "losing out", and other people thank me for my honesty and explain that their own views don't necessarily match the teachings of the workers.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 22, 2012 11:31:43 GMT -5
Sacredotal I have a question for you since you still attend fellowship meeting and I am sure you also attend gospel meetings too. What form of outreach do the workers have in your area? Do they go door to door speaking and inviting everyone to meetings, or are your gospel meetings only for those on the inside? Do you take neighbors and outside friends to the meetings? If not why? The workers are too few- they are rarely in my area. And that is so sad for the hundred or so thousand people that live in our little city. But, God knows the honest heart and He will lead those that want to sit under the sound of the gospel to the workers. We have seen this so many times before. And we are thankful for that. Just the other day, I was at a recreation center with a bunch of local youth. And the kids and teens were so well-behaved and respectful. I didn't hear any cussing, or yelling, or even a voice raised in anger. And as I drove home, I thought, how sad that none of these people are saved. They are under the influence of false prophets and false religion. If only they could sit under the sound of the gospel. I will work on being a better light for them so that they might ask a question about why am I so different then all of the others, and then they can hopefully go to gospel meetings and get saved. As we pray in our humble little meetings, "May the Lord draw those with an honest heart to the workers." Amen.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 22, 2012 11:38:26 GMT -5
I found your comment enlightening, HBerry. I find it interesting the I can honestly repeat what I have been taught by the workers, but when it is presented in "mixed" company- our core beliefs are suddenly equivocated to meaningless gibberish that make the 2x2 fellowship seem just like any other fellowship. The problem is not that you are repeating what the workers say. I am repeating EXACTLY what the workers say and the friends profess to believe. I am one of the friends. I love this fellowship. But I will not lie or be dishonest about our beliefs just to pull a bait-and-switch to win converts. I spoke with an overseer the other day- I thought that perhaps he had softened on the "we are the only true preachers and this is the only right way" belief. Wrong. He let me know good and quick that he would seriously worry about any of the friends that did not believe such. Does stating the truth in mixed company without equivocation cause the friends to squirm? Sure, but the real question is, why is that? Why are we afraid to state our true doctrine? I love the friends and workers- but I hate the doctrine(s)/rules that we can't speak about openly and honestly. Something is wrong with the doctrine/rules if that is the case, or so I believe.
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Post by quizzer on Mar 22, 2012 14:22:23 GMT -5
Cool. I didn't know that English predated Hebrew! Learn something new every day! Oh, yeah! ;D I don't know if these has been studied, but it's possible that God spoke to Moses in the Egyptian language. After all, Moses was schooled in that language. Just a thought.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 14:42:21 GMT -5
Cool. I didn't know that English predated Hebrew! Learn something new every day! Oh, yeah! ;D I don't know if these has been studied, but it's possible that God spoke to Moses in the Egyptian language. After all, Moses was schooled in that language. Just a thought. Hmmm, I wonder in what language he spoke to Noah. I wonder how you say "Trinity" in Noahese?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 15:05:08 GMT -5
If I were you, I wouldn't pay much attention to TS in sacerdotal clothing. It's a waste of time. I found your comment enlightening, HBerry. I find it interesting the I can honestly repeat what I have been taught by the workers, but when it is presented in "mixed" company- our core beliefs are suddenly equivocated to meaningless gibberish that make the 2x2 fellowship seem just like any other fellowship. When was the last time that you went up to a worker and stated the following: "I do not believe that the workers are God's only true servants." (FYI- I had a conversation with an overseer friend of mine the other day- he still very much believes that the Truth is the only right way and the workers God's only true servants. I appreciated that there was no equivocation with him. He believes what he believes and he doesn't apologize for that- and nor should he.) When was the last time that you went up to an overseer and asked, "You know, you workers need to be more accountable to the friends. Why is it so difficult to remove sexually misbehaving workers from the ministry? Why don't the workers tell us how much money they have collected and that is available for use? Why don't the workers get married- even though it is more scriptural then not being? Why are the "weak" ("weak" meaning those that do not fully buy into the 2x2 doctrine) friends socially isolated?" Your comment goes to the whole genesis of this thread- why can't or why don't the friends really speak the doctrine as it REALLY IS to the unsaved/unprofessing? Why must we hide our beautiful truth under a bed? If it is true, then why not talk about it openly? Are we insecure? Fearful? Deluding our selves? I have no problems expressing my thoughts directly to the workers. You appear to be responding with quotes (some quite ancient) and ideas that you apparently don't agree in a way that makes it look like you do believe it. If you don't believe it--which from what you said above you don't---then it just comes across as another tiring "early TS" rerun. I prefer a less disingenuous conversation, but that's just me, the forthright. Party on!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 15:06:42 GMT -5
I found your comment enlightening, HBerry. I find it interesting the I can honestly repeat what I have been taught by the workers, but when it is presented in "mixed" company- our core beliefs are suddenly equivocated to meaningless gibberish that make the 2x2 fellowship seem just like any other fellowship. The problem is not that you are repeating what the workers say. The problem with your posts is the same problem I saw in the posts of TS. You repeat what the workers say in some posts, but the way you write other posts indicates that you don't actually agree with what the workers said. When we read what you write on a message board, we can't hear tone of voice or see body language. Consequently, your posts can be interpreted as mocking, insincere, or hypocritical. I'm honest with people--and with workers--that I don't believe exactly as they do. Some people will say I "don't get it", some people will say I'm "losing out", and other people thank me for my honesty and explain that their own views don't necessarily match the teachings of the workers. You said it better than I did, SG--thanks.
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Post by JO on Mar 22, 2012 15:13:47 GMT -5
....to the Jews there was only one meaning for Lord. God ... the Lord our God is one. By far the most common use of the word "lord" meant "Lord, Sir, Master". The same Hebrew and Greek words (adon, kurios) were used for both God and man. The same word adon is translated lord in the following two verses: Genesis 23:6 Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead. Exodus 23:17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the LORD God.
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 22, 2012 15:38:54 GMT -5
Your comment goes to the whole genesis of this thread- why can't or why don't the friends really speak the doctrine as it REALLY IS to the unsaved/unprofessing? Why must we hide our beautiful truth under a bed? If it is true, then why not talk about it openly? My view on this, even though I am not exactly current with the F&W world, other than a small progressive segment: There are the people who believe this kind of stuff, and they stay silent – from either reasons of “pearls before swine” or “being wise as serpents and harmless as doves”. There are the people who are not sure what they believe, so they stay silent. There are people who do not believe this kind of stuff – and indeed their hearts and life experience have taught them differently. Other than to a select inner circle, they stay silent partly out of denial, partly out of self preservation, and partly out of kindness and consideration to those who do believe this kind of stuff. When I was a member, I stayed silent for two main reasons: 1) “Love waits”. Someone encapsulated this concept very well at a special meetings I once attended. He spoke of the qualities of divine love – one of which was “Love waits for another to grow up.” My thinking (for so many years) was “They don’t know any better yet, but some day they will figure it out.” 2) Being B&R, and not particularly un-astute, I (very pragmatically) knew the consequences of speaking out. I was not willing for this. I had a lot more freedom by staying off the radar screen of the leadership. By the time I was willing for the consequences, it no longer mattered – I had already moved on.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Mar 22, 2012 16:15:29 GMT -5
When I was a member, I stayed silent for two main reasons: 1) “Love waits”. Someone encapsulated this concept very well at a special meetings I once attended. He spoke of the qualities of divine love – one of which was “Love waits for another to grow up.” My thinking (for so many years) was “They don’t know any better yet, but some day they will figure it out.” 2) Being B&R, and not particularly un-astute, I (very pragmatically) knew the consequences of speaking out. I was not willing for this. I had a lot more freedom by staying off the radar screen of the leadership. By the time I was willing for the consequences, it no longer mattered – I had already moved on. I like this! Though my experience while in the fellowship was different, in that I didn't perceive things as clearly - though I did feel tensions within myself - I can wait now, and I don't particularly feel that "growing up" requires that a person "move on out." I appreciate those who question things, will discuss them, and yet remain on the fellowship - some of those are of course here on TMB.
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Post by quizzer on Mar 22, 2012 16:28:12 GMT -5
Oh, yeah! ;D I don't know if these has been studied, but it's possible that God spoke to Moses in the Egyptian language. After all, Moses was schooled in that language. Just a thought. Hmmm, I wonder in what language he spoke to Noah. I wonder how you say "Trinity" in Noahese? Two roles of the Holy Trinity hadn't happened then...still, Noah would use the name of God as "I am."
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Post by Done4now on Mar 22, 2012 16:29:59 GMT -5
an interesting thing about the group is that the vast majority of people in meetings--are born and raised in the group (unless you are in a few of the 3rd world countries).
now when someone is born and raised in ANY system of belief--it is natural that at some time over the course of their lifetime they will question it--indeed--IMO, those who have never given much thought to their faith tend to have a weak shallow faith compared to those who do.
So--we have a group that relies on b/r people---and should expect every single one of them to go through periods of questioning. But instead of figuring out how to guide people safely through their periods of doubt--this group tries to stifle the questions--and people leave during these times. Devastating--when they are relying on keeping every person if they want to stay around.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2012 16:59:34 GMT -5
Hmmm, I wonder in what language he spoke to Noah. I wonder how you say "Trinity" in Noahese? Two roles of the Holy Trinity hadn't happened then...still, Noah would use the name of God as "I am." I think some Trinnies will disagree with you on that. For me, I dunno.
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 22, 2012 17:14:28 GMT -5
How are you 'so different then all of the others'?
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Post by JO on Mar 22, 2012 17:23:29 GMT -5
Hmmm, I wonder in what language he spoke to Noah. I wonder how you say "Trinity" in Noahese? Two roles of the Holy Trinity hadn't happened then...still, Noah would use the name of God as "I am." Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
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Post by breakingfree on Mar 22, 2012 17:33:27 GMT -5
IMO, if Jesus isn't God then he is a damnable liar and if you serve/worship him you are an idolater. He told us to pray to him, confess our sin to him, obey his commandments, give our lives to him. He said he can forgive sin. If he isn't God then he is a narcissistic jerk who wants to steal all the glory, honor and reverence God commanded we were to give to Him and Him alone. Some see the doctrine of the Trinity as a problem. I think it is a solution.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 22, 2012 17:47:28 GMT -5
The 9/11 terrorists sacrificed a lot. Catholic nuns. Buddhist monks. Two Baptist missionaries were murdered in Mexico-they sacrificed. Youcef Nadarkhani, a Christian pastor in Iran is facing a death sentence. Go to missionary-blogs.com to find many missionaries who are sacrificing much. The majority of workers are given the best and live in comfort and ease. Hardly a sacrifice. If I were you, I wouldn't pay much attention to TS in sacerdotal clothing. It's a waste of time. So Hberry, you seem to be saying that Sacerdotal is not saying anything that is correct or is not even being honest or s(he does not have any of the love of God in his/her heart?
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 22, 2012 17:48:13 GMT -5
I am taught by the workers that God will handle his ministry- the friends are leaving their place if they ever dare speak against a worker. As the workers have told us before, "You didn't hire me, and you can't fire me." Really? Is this just figurative language? Or did you have a conversation with workers where something like this was actually expressed? However. You know, you actually CAN fire them. I did. It was very satisfying. It still is.
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Post by quizzer on Mar 22, 2012 17:50:08 GMT -5
Two roles of the Holy Trinity hadn't happened then...still, Noah would use the name of God as "I am." Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The Holy Spirit was imparted after the resurrection of the Son. The Spirit of God in this verse is still the role of the Father, creating the universe.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 22, 2012 17:58:36 GMT -5
Two roles of the Holy Trinity hadn't happened then...still, Noah would use the name of God as "I am." I think some Trinnies will disagree with you on that. For me, I dunno. Well, for one, Jesus had "not happened".....though I have to say the "Holy Spirit or Ghost had happened for a select few! Otherwise, those who understood that there was an "us" in the Godhead.....maybe just took that on faith that when God found it okay to reveal the "us" in the creating picture that He would reveal it...which He has to some...probably more then not revealed to.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 22, 2012 18:01:09 GMT -5
IMO, if Jesus isn't God then he is a damnable liar and if you serve/worship him you are an idolater. He told us to pray to him, confess our sin to him, obey his commandments, give our lives to him. He said he can forgive sin. If he isn't God then he is a narcissistic jerk who wants to steal all the glory, honor and reverence God commanded we were to give to Him and Him alone. Some see the doctrine of the Trinity as a problem. I think it is a solution. Breakingfree, you said it quite....succintly, perhaps? Reminded me what Paul said about when he was a child he thought as a child, but when he had become a man, he put away childish things? So seems maturity will side with "I think it is a solution."
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Post by sharonw on Mar 22, 2012 18:03:14 GMT -5
I am taught by the workers that God will handle his ministry- the friends are leaving their place if they ever dare speak against a worker. As the workers have told us before, "You didn't hire me, and you can't fire me." Really? Is this just figurative language? Or did you have a conversation with workers where something like this was actually expressed? However. You know, you actually CAN fire them. I did. It was very satisfying. It still is. Did you actually fire a worker and s(he) was no longer a worker? Or did you fire one as YOUR worker and yet s(he) is still a worker for other people?
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