sms
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Post by sms on Feb 16, 2012 0:35:16 GMT -5
So some background on my question:
There was an article on CNN about how in NYC, public schools could no longer be rented by church organizations for services. It affected about 60 small congregations.
So I started mulling it over, and I wondered how workers would go about renting a facility for meetings. Do you tell the administrators that it's for a church service? Or a bible study? Or is it presented differently (because you're kind-of but not really a "church", and kind-of but not really a "minister", and it's kind-of but not really a "service")?
I'm not trying to cause strife, and it's not meant to be negative, I'm just curious about the process.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2012 15:44:48 GMT -5
We've helped the workers look for places. Our directions were to make sure the people renting the hall knew it was for a bible-based church service. We were told by most of the halls we checked with that they no longer rented to churches because....the churches generally left the place a mess. Kids I presume. So, at least in my area, it's tough to get a spot, but not because there was any objection to religion per se. I don't know what churches those were, but I notice there are a lot of small churches now in industrial areas with lots of vacancies. It seems kind of strange to see "Petey's automotive, R&V Appliances and...The Sweet Fellowship Church". It seems to be working, though.
The one school here that I know will rent to churches already has a church service there on Sunday morning and afternoon (different folks, I think.)
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sms
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Post by sms on Feb 16, 2012 21:01:17 GMT -5
Thanks, Hberry.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 21, 2012 17:16:18 GMT -5
We told people it would be for religious services, and yes, schools in California did become more and more restrictive on that. Sometimes they would allow a church to use the school for services for a period of time, believing that the church should have constructed its own building eventually - which of course doesn't work with the fellowship's beliefs.
We did often have some of the local friends obtain use of a building, largely because they could establish a rapport with the officials from whom the building was rented, whereas we workers of course changed fields periodically. I did this occasionally for the workers here in Hawaii after I left the work too.
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sms
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Post by sms on Feb 23, 2012 11:12:47 GMT -5
Thanks, Alan. It was just something I'd never really thought about - so now it's interesting to know how it's done.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Mar 4, 2012 10:38:43 GMT -5
Some schools have truthers working in them - if they have a good relationship with the administration, they can usually secure space for special meetings. My experience was not in that arena - we contacted owners or managers of buildings, like banks, and asked what they charged for three to four hours for their meeting or conference room. Often, the truthers in the area set up the meeting because they were from that area and knew people in the area better than the workers did. Schools were sometimes used for unplanned arrangements like funerals or get-togethers, but usually only for special meeting once a year.
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Post by deadstone on Mar 6, 2012 22:55:34 GMT -5
This is for Hberry. You call them a bible based church. I've attended a few meetings over the past 40 years and I have never heard a sermon based on the teachings of Christ as written in scripture.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 23, 2012 20:09:14 GMT -5
Laptops and internet usage were quite heavily used by workers by the time I left in '98. In the years before that, Brothers typewriters, which had a small memory, had become very popular with the workers in California. From my observation, the stress level rise was about the same as in society in general - whereas electronic communication promised "more free time" through getting things done faster, in reality the expectations were simply raised, whether the boss's expectations or an individual's expectation for her/himself. During a conversation about some of the stress that workers must deal with the question of technology came up. On the convention rounds being stressful for workers thread there were a number of points brought up that well - makes the conditions that workers have to live in seem a bit much and quite unappealling. One of the things that I was wondering about is - has the increase in the use of technology increased the stress level of workers? When I left in 1997 there was no cell phone issue or widespread internet use - now it seems like everyone and their dog has a cell phone and at least one or more email addresses not to mention these discussion boards. Are these things used by most workers - how do you keep up and still maintain what seemed to be a fairly hectic visiting schedule - or is this problematic? Just curious that's all
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Post by dmmichgood on May 23, 2012 21:24:08 GMT -5
So some background on my question: There was an article on CNN about how in NYC, public schools could no longer be rented by church organizations for services. It affected about 60 small congregations. So I started mulling it over, and I wondered how workers would go about renting a facility for meetings. Do you tell the administrators that it's for a church service? Or a bible study? Or is it presented differently (because you're kind-of but not really a "church", and kind-of but not really a "minister", and it's kind-of but not really a "service")? I'm not trying to cause strife, and it's not meant to be negative, I'm just curious about the process. It's an interesting subject.
It has 'separation of church & state' issues & was the subject an article in the Church & State newsletter lately
Church & State is published by Americans United for Separation of Church & State. You can find info on the internet.
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Post by texasdude on Aug 24, 2012 14:23:12 GMT -5
Interestingly enough - we had some luck in getting church halls to use for gospel meetings.
We were always up front that they were bible talks for a non-denominational Christian fellowship.
Response varied as you might imagine ..... If we had a contact in the community it would sometimes help our cause. Of course we would only rent for about 4 weeks depending on interest.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2012 2:30:24 GMT -5
Interestingly enough - we had some luck in getting church halls to use for gospel meetings. We were always up front that they were bible talks for a non-denominational Christian fellowship. Response varied as you might imagine ..... If we had a contact in the community it would sometimes help our cause. Of course we would only rent for about 4 weeks depending on interest. I'm curious as to the rationale behind the use of church halls for gospel meetings. In my quarter of a century involved with the group, worshiping in church buildings was regularly preached against. Indeed it was made clear that those churches who met in church buildings were false churches and those who preached in church buildings were false teachers. I recall that for anyone who left the 2x2 group, it was actually considered preferable that they went nowhere on a Sunday morning rather than to begin to attend a church that met in a church building. Perhaps it might be useful if you could talk us through what appears on the surface to be a contradiction and clarify what the workers' official position is regarding church buildings (and those churches who meet in them) as you understand it. Matt10
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Aug 28, 2012 20:07:09 GMT -5
I'm curious as to the rationale behind the use of church halls for gospel meetings. In my quarter of a century involved with the group, worshiping in church buildings was regularly preached against. Indeed it was made clear that those churches who met in church buildings were false churches and those who preached in church buildings were false teachers. I recall that for anyone who left the 2x2 group, it was actually considered preferable that they went nowhere on a Sunday morning rather than to begin to attend a church that met in a church building. Perhaps it might be useful if you could talk us through what appears on the surface to be a contradiction and clarify what the workers' official position is regarding church buildings (and those churches who meet in them) as you understand it. Matt10 I understood things in this way too, and though my associates and I never used a church (well, they did ask us to speak in churches a few times in the Marshall Islands a few times, in their services), I believe the rationale was something along the lines of it not being for worship or fellowship, but for "outreach" - basically the same rationale as was/is used for renting other halls for gospel meetings. I'm not criticizing the rationale here, just stating it as I understood it. An incident just came to mind in which an associate and I were asked to speak in a Reformed Congregational (local-grown in the Marshalls) service on Majuro Atoll. They then took up a collection to give to us as guest speakers, and we politely declined it. I remember some rather interesting visits with the church members after that - the minister's wife got rather hot under the collar when we explained that neither one of us was married! I do look back on it as a point that brought some interesting conversation, even though I'm in a different "space" now.
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Post by texasdude on Sept 5, 2012 16:28:23 GMT -5
We never had gospel meetings in the chapel itself - usually a community room or something like that. Maybe the churches you've been in haven't had those - Not sure as to the 'rationale' that you speak of, but Jesus taught in the temple, which was a place of worship - so unsure how one would say that there is something wrong with that.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Sept 5, 2012 21:22:07 GMT -5
We never had gospel meetings in the chapel itself - usually a community room or something like that. Maybe the churches you've been in haven't had those - Yes, the few I spoke in were just small churches on some rather small islands - kind of the "little church in the vale" style. And, as I mentioned, we weren't conducting a series of "gospel meetings," but were just invited to speak in a few of their churches on occasion. I do remember attending a gospel meeting while visiting relatives in Portland (while I was still in the work), and that meeting was conducted in a church, and it seems like it was some type of community room. Yes, I love Jesus' example of just speaking wherever he could reach people!
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Post by texasdude on Sept 6, 2012 8:14:27 GMT -5
I will add that I do think that there was always the thought that we not hold the Sunday morning service in the a church building...
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Post by Sylvestra on Sept 6, 2012 13:25:04 GMT -5
Interestingly enough - we had some luck in getting church halls to use for gospel meetings. We were always up front that they were bible talks for a non-denominational Christian fellowship. Response varied as you might imagine ..... If we had a contact in the community it would sometimes help our cause. Of course we would only rent for about 4 weeks depending on interest. You mean, "up front" like telling them you're going to try to take members of their congregation away from them?
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Post by Sylvestra on Sept 6, 2012 13:26:36 GMT -5
I'm curious as to the rationale behind the use of church halls for gospel meetings. In my quarter of a century involved with the group, worshiping in church buildings was regularly preached against. Indeed it was made clear that those churches who met in church buildings were false churches and those who preached in church buildings were false teachers. I recall that for anyone who left the 2x2 group, it was actually considered preferable that they went nowhere on a Sunday morning rather than to begin to attend a church that met in a church building. Perhaps it might be useful if you could talk us through what appears on the surface to be a contradiction and clarify what the workers' official position is regarding church buildings (and those churches who meet in them) as you understand it. Matt10 I understood things in this way too, and though my associates and I never used a church (well, they did ask us to speak in churches a few times in the Marshall Islands a few times, in their services), I believe the rationale was something along the lines of it not being for worship or fellowship, but for "outreach" - basically the same rationale as was/is used for renting other halls for gospel meetings. I'm not criticizing the rationale here, just stating it as I understood it. An incident just came to mind in which an associate and I were asked to speak in a Reformed Congregational (local-grown in the Marshalls) service on Majuro Atoll. They then took up a collection to give to us as guest speakers, and we politely declined it. I remember some rather interesting visits with the church members after that - the minister's wife got rather hot under the collar when we explained that neither one of us was married! I do look back on it as a point that brought some interesting conversation, even though I'm in a different "space" now. Alan, why did she have a problem with you both being single?
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Sept 6, 2012 16:00:24 GMT -5
An incident just came to mind in which an associate and I were asked to speak in a Reformed Congregational (local-grown in the Marshalls) service on Majuro Atoll. They then took up a collection to give to us as guest speakers, and we politely declined it. I remember some rather interesting visits with the church members after that - the minister's wife got rather hot under the collar when we explained that neither one of us was married! I do look back on it as a point that brought some interesting conversation, even though I'm in a different "space" now. Alan, why did she have a problem with you both being single? Well, with her being a minister's wife, I think she took it as an affront when we told her that we, as ministers, were unmarried. We weren't attempting to make a big deal of it, but the question was asked, as it often was, so we explained our stance on that. Along this line, we often got questions as to why we didn't marry one of the Marshallese women - kind of as if they felt we were saying they weren't good enough for us. Of course, if they only realized how mightily we all "struggled" along that line anyway . . .
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Sept 6, 2012 16:05:39 GMT -5
Interestingly enough - we had some luck in getting church halls to use for gospel meetings. We were always up front that they were bible talks for a non-denominational Christian fellowship. Response varied as you might imagine ..... If we had a contact in the community it would sometimes help our cause. Of course we would only rent for about 4 weeks depending on interest. You mean, "up front" like telling them you're going to try to take members of their congregation away from them? A companion and I visited three or four church services per week (including evening services and Adventist services on Saturday) on Majuro Atoll for a couple of years. I believe the Salvation Army "Lieutenants" suspected our real reasons for visiting their services a number of times, and asked us not to attend any more until we visited with him. We did attempt to initiate a visit, but it never seemed to work out.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Sept 6, 2012 16:07:23 GMT -5
I will add that I do think that there was always the thought that we not hold the Sunday morning service in the a church building... Yes, that is how I understood it - the "rationale" I referred to above.
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Post by JO on Sept 7, 2012 5:27:17 GMT -5
We were always up front that they were bible talks for a non-denominational Christian fellowship. What makes a fellowship non-denominational? The 2x2 church is registered with many governments around the world, often with a name like "Christian Conventions".
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Post by texasdude on Sept 7, 2012 11:17:15 GMT -5
We were always up front that they were bible talks for a non-denominational Christian fellowship. What makes a fellowship non-denominational? The 2x2 church is registered with many governments around the world, often with a name like "Christian Conventions". Nondenominational - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denominational_ChristianityOr were you being facetious? Being new here, I'm still trying to determine the folks that are having serious conversations or those that attempt to provoke...
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Post by JO on Sept 7, 2012 13:55:50 GMT -5
What makes a fellowship non-denominational? The 2x2 church is registered with many governments around the world, often with a name like "Christian Conventions". Nondenominational - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denominational_ChristianityOr were you being facetious? Being new here, I'm still trying to determine the folks that are having serious conversations or those that attempt to provoke... I'm wondering why you chose to use the word "non-denominational", and what you meant by that. To me it would suggest a local autonomous group that's not affiliated with a world-wide tradition or identity. The 2x2 fellowship is a highly structured identity known world-wide as "the Truth", "the Friends and Workers", "the 2x2s", or "Christian Conventions". According to Wiki, a religious denomination is a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination
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Post by texasdude on Sept 8, 2012 9:23:46 GMT -5
When I have used, and still use the term non-denominational, it's to note that we don't have a worldwide organizing body, with a headquarters in some other city/state/country. Also, to help explain why they may not be familar - as opposed to more well known Catholic, Baptist, Protestant, Church of Christ - how you use the term is entirely up to you.
I suppose if you like, we could start a new topic arguing about what non-denominational means, I was simply responding to a post about using buildings for gospel meetings.
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Post by Grant on Sept 8, 2012 14:59:33 GMT -5
You certainly do not fit into the non-denominational category.
The 2x2s are denominational in every way except they do not tell people their official names. They are a world wide 'church'. So the name non denominational is certainly misleading, to say the least. It worked in our grand parents days when people were not given to questioning and believed what the workers said, repeating the words they themselves had heard but it does not work these days as people know otherwise and can think for themselves and work out if these things are so. The Internet is one source that has made people accountable for these made up phrases. How can you say it is not a denomination when it is the same as every other church in this regard. It certainly has head quarter's in every state or country with overseers, world wide lists or conventions and workers etc etc etc. It is a world wide network. If someone wants to go overseas to preach they do not just go, it is arranged with the workers in that state or country. It is as much if not more organized on a world scale, than a lot of churches.
You do use buildings for Gospel meetings, just you rent them, you don't own them. You use buildings for Sunday morning meeting (houses) you have convention grounds. Renting or owning, you still use them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2012 6:38:25 GMT -5
We never had gospel meetings in the chapel itself - usually a community room or something like that. Maybe the churches you've been in haven't had those - Not sure as to the 'rationale' that you speak of, but Jesus taught in the temple, which was a place of worship - so unsure how one would say that there is something wrong with that. Texasdude Are you saying that it's perfectly acceptable to worship/preach in church buidings because Jesus taught in the temple? Or are you saying that it is NOT acceptable to worship/preach in church buildings unless you are worshipping/preaching in a church building (or part of a church building) that is not used for regular Sunday morning worship/preaching by the host church organisation? Or are you saying something else entirely? Matt10
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lorna
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wally, did she fall ill?
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Post by lorna on Jan 29, 2013 23:35:05 GMT -5
I find it interesting you quote Richard Rohr and Thomas Merton. An acquaintance I know that is in the work is always telling me how wrong the catholic beliefs are.
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Post by StAnne on Jan 29, 2013 23:43:47 GMT -5
I find it interesting you quote Richard Rohr and Thomas Merton. An acquaintance I know that is in the work is always telling me how wrong the catholic beliefs are. I see this is an older thread - I haven't seen Alan V. around for a while - it looks like he last posted late Dec, but AFAIK - he is no longer 2x2 if that helps to answer your question.
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