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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 24, 2014 21:01:15 GMT -5
" So do you believe the 12 apostles were wrong? And all I want for an answer is either YES or NO." If you don't know, say I DON'T KNOW. I don't want to know anything else right now.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 24, 2014 22:58:05 GMT -5
" So do you believe the 12 apostles were wrong? And all I want for an answer is either YES or NO." If you don't know, say I DON'T KNOW. I don't want to know anything else right now. ~~ No problem. I will let you know when I don't know the answer. I have done in the past quite a few times on this message board so be patience with me.So when are you going to answer?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 24, 2014 23:16:03 GMT -5
So when are you going to answer? I am ready, right now... Can you restart your question about the 12 apostles wrongness more specific, or clearer. Which wrongness were you thinking of the 12 had, Bob? Thanks. You wrote previously, "So you believe the 12 apostles were wrong?" And all I want for an answer is either YES or NO."Wrong" in this context means: the wrong doctrine. So. Do you think the 12 apostles had the wrong doctrine?
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Post by findingtruth on Apr 24, 2014 23:29:31 GMT -5
Paul didn't derail Christianity but he put it in the right Path/course... WITH and according to Jesus Christ teachings. SAVED by Grace alone and NOT Saved by grace AND must keep obeying the law of Moses to be SAVED. Jesus would NOT have called Paul His chosen Vessel as a messenger/ambassador to the Gentiles people, if he was going to derail His/Jesus New Testament foundations teachings.
Paul saved the early Church from going/following the path of destruction, the false apostles, teachers within the church teaching false doctrines. So you believe the 12 apostles were wrong? And all I want for an answer is either YES or NO. Nathan, I'm not sure what Bob is asking exactly but I "think" I may know where he's coming from. Please answer exactly WHAT Paul felt he needed to put back on the right path when it comes to the message of Jesus? What path was Christianity on? Scripture suggests that the 12 apostles were delivering the message as Jesus taught them. I believe Paul sent out mixed messages. He warned people about returning to bondage and yet he had quite a list of rules (bondage created by man) that he encouraged his followers to adhere to. These rules seemed to contradict what Jesus had taught in many cases.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 24, 2014 23:55:23 GMT -5
"Wrong" in this context means: the wrong doctrine. So. Do you think the 12 apostles had the wrong doctrine? Can you tell us which doctrine did you have in mind? Can you be more specific. Give me two examples. I don't care what doctrine it was. You said that the 12 apostles disagreed with Paul, and you said that Paul had the right doctrine. So now I want to know if you think the 12 apostles had wrong doctrine? The question is not really about either Paul or the apostles -- the question is about YOU -- do you think the 12 apostles had wrong doctrine?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 24, 2014 23:57:12 GMT -5
So you believe the 12 apostles were wrong? And all I want for an answer is either YES or NO. Nathan, I'm not sure what Bob is asking exactly but I "think" I may know where he's coming from. Please answer exactly WHAT Paul felt he needed to put back on the right path when it comes to the message of Jesus? What path was Christianity on? Scripture suggests that the 12 apostles were delivering the message as Jesus taught them. I believe Paul sent out mixed messages. He warned people about returning to bondage and yet he had quite a list of rules (bondage created by man) that he encouraged his followers to adhere to. These rules seemed to contradict what Jesus had taught in many cases. No, I don't want to know that at all. I want to know if Nathan really knows what he's talking about or if he's just going around in circles.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 0:01:38 GMT -5
I don't care what doctrine it was. You said that the 12 apostles disagreed with Paul, and you said that Paul had the right doctrine. So not I want to know if you think the 12 apostles had wrong doctrine? The question is not really about either Paul or the apostles -- the question is about YOU -- do you think the 12 apostles had wrong doctrine? Then My answer is Yes to your question.Thank you. Now, can you tell me what they had the wrong belief about? No explanation -- I just want to know what topic it was.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 1:06:13 GMT -5
Thank you. Now, can you tell me what they had the wrong belief about? No explanation -- I just want to know what topic it was. SAVED by the Grace of God Alone! NOT by PLUS the Act of Circumcision for Christians men and keeping the law of Moses to be saved.
So, who taught the 12 disciples to keep the Law of Moses?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 1:40:34 GMT -5
So, who taught the 12 disciples to keep the Law of Moses? The Law of Moses was a covenant God made with the children of Israel (including 12 apostles and Jesus, himself) but NOT with the Christians. Paul explain about the law of Moses Vs. Faith in Christ. Gal. 3:18-25 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Purpose of the Law
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
There you go again. My question was: WHO TAUGHT the 12 APOSTLES to obey the Law of Moses? No explanation please -- just name WHO.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 1:55:59 GMT -5
There you go again. My question was: WHO TAUGHT the 12 APOSTLES to obey the Law of Moses? No explanation please -- just name WHO. I told you God! had taught them. He made a covenant with the children of Israel on Mt. Sinai...... Where are you going with your questions??No, Nathan, the 12 apostles were not at Mount Sinai. I want to know who preached the gospel to the 12 apostles?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 2:30:32 GMT -5
No, Nathan, the 12 apostles were not at Mount Sinai. I want to know who preached the gospel to the 12 apostles? Jesus, preached the gospel to the 12.
Thank you. I'm ignoring the rest of your answer because it had nothing to do with my question. In fact, I had already heard it ad nauseam [/font][/quote] I'm learning something from you. Wait until I have it all figured out and then I'll answer some questions for you. My next question: Did Jesus leave anything out when he preached his gospel to the 12 apostles? Please don't say anything more than YES or NO. You will only confuse the issue.
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Post by snow on Apr 25, 2014 10:28:34 GMT -5
Thank you. Now, can you tell me what they had the wrong belief about? No explanation -- I just want to know what topic it was. SAVED by the Grace of God Alone! NOT by PLUS the Act of Circumcision for Christians men and keeping the law of Moses to be saved.
But Nathan, Jesus never said you could be saved without being circumcised. Paul said that. The original apostles were right when it came to what Jesus taught. it was Paul who changed it up and he was wrong to do that in their eyes.
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Post by snow on Apr 25, 2014 11:16:21 GMT -5
The question wasn't what it was changed to after Jesus death, it was where did Jesus say that to be saved you didn't need to be circumcised? All these things came after the death of Jesus did they not? So it would just be man deciding that they needed more recruits and it was more likely to get them if they didn't require grown men to be circumcised. And it worked. Good public relations move!! Now why didn't Jesus think of that?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 13:16:22 GMT -5
Thank you. I'm ignoring the rest of your answer because it had nothing to do with my question. In fact, I had already heard it ad nauseam [/font][/quote] I'm learning something from you. Wait until I have it all figured out and then I'll answer some questions for you. My next question: Did Jesus leave anything out when he preached his gospel to the 12 apostles? Please don't say anything more than YES or NO. You will only confuse the issue. [/quote] How about answering my question first because it is important question. You ask me one question, then it my turn to ask you a question. We take turn, OK... Bob. I will answer your question with a yes or No but I will add more to it because the readers might be interested reading the rest of it. But You can either answer my questions with a Yes or NO without explanation. My last question to you, Bob... Are the 12 apostles and Jesus children/descendants of Israel? Yes or No answer should be easy on this one.[/quote] Of course they were. That is a YES. NOW: Did Jesus leave anything out when he preached his gospel to the 12 apostles? Please don't say anything more than YES or NO. You will only confuse the issue.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 13:38:52 GMT -5
~~ My answer is NO. My turn: When do you think the New testament Covenant began? This is not a YES or NO question, is it? I believe the New Convenant began when the orthodox church adopted Paul's philosophy -- that would be some time in the second century.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 13:40:47 GMT -5
Sorry. My next question. Was "saved by grace" one of the things that Jesus left out of his gospel message?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 13:48:50 GMT -5
[/font][/quote] ~~ My answer is NO. My turn: When do you think the New testament Covenant began? [/quote] This is not a YES or NO question, is it? I believe the New Covenant began when the orthodox church adopted Paul's philosophy -- that would be some time in the second century.[/quote] hmmmmm.... I thought Jesus started and sealed the New Testament/Covenant with His own blood pouring out on Calvary's Cross.[/quote] I already knew that you think that. It's okay, you can believe that if you like. I'm asking you about things I don't know about your beliefs.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 13:51:09 GMT -5
Sorry. My next question. Was "saved by grace" one of the things that Jesus left out of his gospel message? ~~ No.I have two questions now. But just one at a time. What exactly did Jesus leave out of his gospel message?
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Post by findingtruth on Apr 25, 2014 13:52:23 GMT -5
Nathan, I'm not sure what Bob is asking exactly but I "think" I may know where he's coming from. Please answer exactly WHAT Paul felt he needed to put back on the right path when it comes to the message of Jesus? What path was Christianity on? Scripture suggests that the 12 apostles were delivering the message as Jesus taught them. I believe Paul sent out mixed messages. He warned people about returning to bondage and yet he had quite a list of rules (bondage created by man) that he encouraged his followers to adhere to. These rules seemed to contradict what Jesus had taught in many cases. No, I don't want to know that at all. I want to know if Nathan really knows what he's talking about or if he's just going around in circles. You have my apologies. I was confused by Nathan's comment suggesting that Paul had a better idea of what Christianity was that those who associated personally with Christ and were sent out with a specific message related personally to them by Jesus. I shouldn't have tried to interpret what you might have been asking.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 13:55:18 GMT -5
No, I don't want to know that at all. I want to know if Nathan really knows what he's talking about or if he's just going around in circles. You have my apologies. I was confused by Nathan's comment suggesting that Paul had a better idea of what Christianity was that those who associated personally with Christ and were sent out with a specific message related personally to them by Jesus. I shouldn't have tried to interpret what you might have been asking. Don't worry a thing about it -- I understand perfectly. Some of these things have to be untangles "one strand at a time".
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 17:11:39 GMT -5
I have two questions now. But just one at a time. What exactly did Jesus leave out of his gospel message? Why, do you think Jesus leave anything out of his gospel message.Actually, I asked the question incorrectly. I know you said Jesus didn't leave anything out of his gospel. But you also said that the apostles were wrong because they didn't learn about "saved by grace" from Jesus. Do you know a reason why they did not learn that from Jesus? YES or NO, remember.
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Post by snow on Apr 25, 2014 19:17:36 GMT -5
The question wasn't what it was changed to after Jesus death, it was where did Jesus say that to be saved you didn't need to be circumcised? All these things came after the death of Jesus did they not? So it would just be man deciding that they needed more recruits and it was more likely to get them if they didn't require grown men to be circumcised. And it worked. Good public relations move!! Now why didn't Jesus think of that? Because Jesus was Under the control law of Moses when he was alive. Paul the apostle wrote in Gal. 4:4-6 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
It had NOTHING to do with getting more recruits! The act of Circumcision was part of the Old covenant God made with the children of Israel for 2000 yrs. Then God established a New and better covenant with Jesus and His followers/Christians, less rituals and ceremonials to keep... Saved by the grace of God.
So you are telling me that God was under some sort of rule he himself made and couldn't break unless he allowed himself to be killed? Why wouldn't he say that then. After they kill me then you can start converting Gentiles and they don't need to be circumcised. But there is no word from Jesus at all saying he allows that to happen after his death. Paul imo made things up as he went along and it was for recruits. Not many adult males want to convert if that is the price to pay.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 19:38:27 GMT -5
Actually, I asked the question incorrectly. I know you said Jesus didn't leave anything out of his gospel. But you also said that the apostles were wrong because they didn't learn about "saved by grace" from Jesus. Do you know a reason why they did not learn that from Jesus? YES or NO, remember. How can I answer Yes or No? when you asked me to give a REASON, which need more than a yes and no answer. I think you should forget this Yes and No type of answer. It's a waste of time for me and the readers.Nathan -- read carefully. I didn't ask you for a reason. All I asked you was DO YOU KNOW why the apostles didn't learn about "saved by grace" from Jesus. If you would learn to answer just the questions asked it wouldn't take so long.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 20:17:01 GMT -5
Nathan -- read carefully. I didn't ask you for a reason. All I asked you was DO YOU KNOW why the apostles didn't learn about "saved by grace" from Jesus. If you would learn to answer just the questions asked it wouldn't take so long. I read it very carefully... you wrote "Do you know A REASON! why they did not learn that from Jesus? YES or NO, remember. ~~ The 12 were following the law of Moses, and had little understand of SAVED by the grace of God/Christ alone. They should have learned the lesson from the Adulteress woman's lesson. The Law of Moses required her to be stone to death! But what did Jesus do? He said to the accusers! He is without sin cast the first at her. They were convicted by their own sins went away in shame. Jesus told the woman, "Go, and sin no more!" That is the gospel of Grace/Christ alone SAVES. Jesus forgave her sins.
The 12 should have learned from Jesus two parables. Jesus had taught/warned the disciples about NOT to put New Wine/His teachings back into Old wineskin bottle/Law of Moses... because the new wine expands and would burst the old wineskins. And another example don't patch an old garment with a NEW patch of cloth it will tear up and ruin the new garment.I didn't ask you for the REASON -- I asked you if you knew the reason. If I ask you if you know the name of the Queen of England, I don't need to know what her name is -- I already know it. I want to know if YOU know the reason. So, do you know the reason why the 12 apostles did not learn about "saved by grace" from Jesus? Well, you obviously think you do. So: Who told you this was the reason they did not get the message?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 22:10:57 GMT -5
I didn't ask you for the REASON -- I asked you if you knew the reason. If I ask you if you know the name of the Queen of England, I don't need to know what her name is -- I already know it. I want to know if YOU know the reason. ~~ Nathan: You should double check the way you word, and ask your question sometimes...So, do you know the reason why the 12 apostles did not learn about "saved by grace" from Jesus? Well, you obviously think you do. So: Who told you this was the reason they did not get the message? ~~ Paul and God by revelation. You should read Acts 15, the book of Galatians... Without Paul and Barnabas going up to Jerusalem in Acts 15 the Gentiles SAVED by grace of God AND not plus the act of circumcision and keeping the law of Moses would NEVER be solved. Paul preached SAVED by the grace of God NOT by keeping the law of Moses, to all of his converts!So you talked with Paul and God?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 22:55:46 GMT -5
So you talked with Paul and God? ~~ I read Paul's epistles. Yes, I pray and talk to God everyday.But who told you that the 12 apostles were not following Jesus gospel?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 23:38:47 GMT -5
But who told you that the 12 apostles were not following Jesus gospel? God's voice in my head. And through reading the Bible. You can read Acts 15 and it all revealed right there.Tell me where it says in Acts that the 12 apostles were NOT following Jesus gospel.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2014 23:54:07 GMT -5
Tell me where it says in Acts that the 12 apostles were NOT following Jesus gospel. If the 12 had been preaching the gospel of Grace/Christ without circumcision and keeping the law of Moses then Paul and Barnabas wouldn't have come to Jerusalem in Acts 15. Have you told the workers about this?
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