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Post by Rob Sargison on Feb 10, 2010 3:37:29 GMT -5
Thanks, Scott. Given the fact that he was wrestling with the kid... that would indicate physical force and place it in the 4th degree category. I assume that men who are wrestling as a sport might wear protection against a misplaced grab, just like in football or hockey players? I'm not claiming to know if there was a "misplaced" grab or an "intentional" grab in the wrong spot in this case, but a person could be convicted either way, especially given the age difference of the wrestlers in this case. Sad if it is a predatory case, sad if it is poor judgement and non predatory. Sad for the victim and the convicted and their families. I hope that somehow things can be made right for all involved. Praying it could be so, somehow, some way. No 30+ year old man should be wrestling with an underaged kid under any circumstances. I haven't read the whole story a or a lot of this thread, but this is all a bit sad. Some workers can be terribly naive. He may have in all innocence thought he was helping this kid to man up a little. Any sexual association may have been the furtherest thing from his mind. Naivety and ignorance is perhaps the problem. I have always wrestled with my son, from the time he could walk. At least we have in the past, at 17 he's bigger and stronger than I. I think he prefers to wrestle girls now.......
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Post by rational on Feb 10, 2010 3:57:59 GMT -5
And checking the persons sexual orientation may help if the person was honest about it. What difference would the person's sexual orientation have to do with this?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 4:30:25 GMT -5
It wasn't assault, wasn't CSA ie Child Sexual Abuse, it was CSC Criminal Sexual Contact. Given that clarification I don't know if pedophile is the right word to use but I see that people are using it anyway. Jesse... he is now on the registered sex offenders list because of this conviction - and the conviction is because of criminal sexual conduct with an 11 year old boy. Pedophile is the right word - I dont know why you're trying to minimise this and why you're trying so hard to make out that everyone is on some worker bashing wagon! Let's focus on the issue at hand here - and it's the conviction of a man (who happened to be a worker at the time) for sexual conduct of a child. I haven't seen anyone imply that ALL workers are pedophiles or sexual deviants... are you trying to change the subject by your constant talk about this bandwagon I wonder? I didn't say that everyone was on the worker bashwagon, did I? And there clearly is a swirl of speculation distorting the focus on the issue at hand. That can distort the accuracy of the discussion. The conviction was CSC, Criminal Sexual Contact 4th degree. I read that CSA is an umbrella term for any form of criminal sexual activity towards a child. So a CSC charge is also CSA. I was wrong about that. Pedophile is an emotive and harsh word to use, really no different than me using bashwagon about the constant drumbeat of criticism towards the workers. Both go over the top to make a point. From reading the article doesn't seem to me the Judge in this case would have used the word pedophile.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 4:34:07 GMT -5
I haven't read the whole story a or a lot of this thread, but this is all a bit sad. Some workers can be terribly naive. He may have in all innocence thought he was helping this kid to man up a little. Any sexual association may have been the furtherest thing from his mind. Naivety and ignorance is perhaps the problem. I have always wrestled with my son, from the time he could walk. At least we have in the past, at 17 he's bigger and stronger than I. I think he prefers to wrestle girls now....... Thanks for the objective post. Seems like the Judge might have agreed with you. It is interesting and scary to read what can be considered abuse or assault and sexual abuse or assault. If the letter of the law were carried out many parents would be guilty. Same with statutory rape. Things like touching with intent to arouse or be aroused. Again the letter of the law would make a LOT of kids guilty of statutory rape.
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Post by Rob Sargison on Feb 10, 2010 4:54:31 GMT -5
I haven't read the whole story a or a lot of this thread, but this is all a bit sad. Some workers can be terribly naive. He may have in all innocence thought he was helping this kid to man up a little. Any sexual association may have been the furtherest thing from his mind. Naivety and ignorance is perhaps the problem. I have always wrestled with my son, from the time he could walk. At least we have in the past, at 17 he's bigger and stronger than I. I think he prefers to wrestle girls now....... Thanks for the objective post. Seems like the Judge might have agreed with you. It is interesting and scary to read what can be considered abuse or assault and sexual abuse or assault. If the letter of the law were carried out many parents would be guilty. Same with statutory rape. Things like touching with intent to arouse or be aroused. Again the letter of the law would make a LOT of kids guilty of statutory rape. The clock can never turn back and the stain ever removed when an innocent man is lumped with an accusation of this kind. A judge's proclamation of innocence often does little to quell the suspicion and innuendo.
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Post by fred on Feb 10, 2010 6:43:27 GMT -5
In my part of the world the law draws lines to prevent that from being the case.
There are considerations that pertain to age difference, and also the degree to which one party has or exercises power over the other.
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Post by buzzybee on Feb 10, 2010 6:43:46 GMT -5
My wife and I went through the MinsitrySafe training session Lyle set up for me. We were so impressed paid for a yearly module. That training was offered here on these pages for any who wanted it , I can find the posts. One person took advantage of that offer, Scott Ross. We paid the MinstrySafe renewal for 2010 but I asked them to donate it to someone who could use it more than we would. Pretty sad the workers are expected to be absolutely perfect while it's ok for the rest of us sit on our dead butts and criticise them through computer screens. Yeah I'm a little disappointed, and frustrated, sorry it shows. Maybe we've already been trained, or maybe we're are not in a situation that is high risk. I feel like you are trying to justify this behavour, and it's not ok.
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Post by buzzybee on Feb 10, 2010 6:50:59 GMT -5
Yes, Scott, but isn't that retroactive, instead of proactive. Hmmmm i guess either of those is better that noactive. I would say online CSA training is proactive, wouldn't you? What i meant by this is this was done after a huge case here in this state. However, it's much better than nothing being done.
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Post by fred on Feb 10, 2010 6:54:07 GMT -5
Is there a scriptural quote here?
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Post by sharonw on Feb 10, 2010 8:17:31 GMT -5
once Briggs learned the child had told his parents of what went on, Briggs fled to New York with the assistance of others in the ministry *** Barry Barkley should have to testify about what HE KNEW concerning the worker being moved from MI to NY. I don't think BB was in charge when this happened?
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Post by sharonw on Feb 10, 2010 8:24:45 GMT -5
it is not as simple as that Nathan. Most workers do not have any history before entering the work. Most workers are often young. It is often years before someone tells anyway, and by then there are a number of victims. Offenders are good at keeping people quiet. Often the "offeree" that is accepted into the work quicker then others is because he/she has not exhibited "sexual" behaviors, but "appear" to have become "eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom". This is sad but true....men/women who have exhibited "sexual behaviors/preferences" are not considered as quickly because of the fact that they are not good candidates because they won't "last in the work"....one overseer put it like this..."Once one gets a taste of sex then it's nearly impossible to do without it." Or very close to that wording.
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Post by sharonw on Feb 10, 2010 8:31:29 GMT -5
One of the "weaknesses" in the fellowship is that there is no place--by that I mean like a town-hall meeting--where open discussion happens--a safe place to voice ideas or concerns or even complaints. **** As much as I love many of these people to death, this is a glaring concern. As I say, checks and balances. For this man to be sent to New York without alerting the friends in his area is NEGLENCE. Willful neglegence. And if he was at Freedom or another convention afterwards with NO WARNINGS, this is horrible. In another instance, when a known CSA perp, hidden by the workers in charge, was at a conv. and a parent who tried to warn other parents at the conv. about the presence and danger of this perp., the parent was excommunicated on the spot. IS that showing the right kind of spirit? I think not. Workers that "know" of other worker's "crimes" and these are "crimes" and hide them, do not report them should be charged as "accessory after the fact." Then that would be something to make overseers and other workers and even friends start obeying the laws of the land like the Bible instructs us to do
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Post by freespirit on Feb 10, 2010 8:48:35 GMT -5
No 30+ year old man should be wrestling with an underaged kid under any circumstances. Quick! Close down all the martial arts studios and school sports teams! freespirit
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2010 9:07:35 GMT -5
No 30+ year old man should be wrestling with an underaged kid under any circumstances. Quick! Close down all the martial arts studios and school sports teams! freespirit Absolutely, no joking. Kids should wrestle in their own age and weight categories, but any non-parental adult who chooses to wrestle with kids as a sport or "fun" has a screw loose. If that is what is going on in those studios and teams, shut them down..... it's not even physically safe let alone sexually safe.
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Post by freespirit on Feb 10, 2010 9:26:52 GMT -5
Quick! Close down all the martial arts studios and school sports teams! freespirit Absolutely, no joking. Kids should wrestle in their own age and weight categories, but any non-parental adult who chooses to wrestle with kids as a sport or "fun" has a screw loose. If that is what is going on in those studios and teams, shut them down..... it's not even physically safe let alone sexually safe. If you think that non-sexual human touch is wrong then maybe you should picket that all ballet and yoga studios be shut down too. Do you think that massage therapists and chiropractors should be illegal? freespirit
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Post by freespirit on Feb 10, 2010 9:30:38 GMT -5
Quick! Close down all the martial arts studios and school sports teams! freespirit Absolutely, no joking. Kids should wrestle in their own age and weight categories, but any non-parental adult who chooses to wrestle with kids as a sport or "fun" has a screw loose. If that is what is going on in those studios and teams, shut them down..... it's not even physically safe let alone sexually safe. Clearday, how does one learn how to defend themself against an attacker if one only grabbles with people thier own size? When a woman wrestles with a large man at the karate studio, is she cheating on her husband? freespirit
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Post by rational on Feb 10, 2010 9:52:30 GMT -5
In another instance, when a known CSA perp, hidden by the workers in charge, was at a conv. and a parent who tried to warn other parents at the conv. about the presence and danger of this perp., the parent was excommunicated on the spot. IS that showing the right kind of spirit? I think not. Workers that "know" of other worker's "crimes" and these are "crimes" and hide them, do not report them should be charged as "accessory after the fact." Then that would be something to make overseers and other workers and even friends start obeying the laws of the land like the Bible instructs us to do You seem to have left out the responsibility of the parents of the children.
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Post by snow on Feb 10, 2010 10:07:32 GMT -5
That's because Jesse's on his own runaway blind-worker-defense wagon. It's not pretty, is it. Ugly strawman you imagined up there pinky. Snow, why do you imagine I'm defending sexual assult? What have I said that gives you that idea? I asked why you seem to be defending a person who committed sexual assault, not that you defended sexual assault. I'm quite sure you do not agree with sexual assault, or at least I hope you don't. Just because he was a worker, is not reason for defense imo. You have come across as someone that does not want to hear anything bad said about the workers even though they have committed crimes that should no longer allow them their "special status". That is what I am questioning. I am not against "all" workers and I don't think anyone commenting here are either. They are concerned about the ones that are a problem and dangerous to their children. They have every right to be concerned, don't you agree?
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Post by jhjmr on Feb 10, 2010 10:38:39 GMT -5
Someone is forgetting that the worker was first charged with second degree CSC and plea bargained it down to fourth degree. Now why was he charged with second degree? And also, would you admit guilt if all you were doing was wrestling to play? You can NOT disregard the facts, how they were taken care of or when it was was reported. There is to much politics being involved. Workers are volunteers to preach the bible and hopefully live up to what they preach. CSA is not in the bible. It is not part of truth. If you commit a crime, you are not doing truth. You are no different than any other person that commits a crime. So, if the title for someone guilty happens to be worker, sorry, no different than neighbor. Would the incident been reported if it was a neighbor? You'd better believe it and when it happened.
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Post by degem on Feb 10, 2010 11:49:09 GMT -5
Mmm from a personal standpoint the worker sentenced should not be allowed around persons under 17
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 12:00:53 GMT -5
Maybe we've already been trained, or maybe we're are not in a situation that is high risk. I feel like you are trying to justify this behavour, and it's not ok. The MinistrySafe training is pretty generic, it applies to everyone not just ministers. Anything to raise the awarness of both parents and those in high risk situations is a good thing. We didn't feel the training was out of place at all for parents, grandparents, whoever. I feel you are going a bit too far in thinking anyone would justify criminal sexual contact/assault.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 12:13:47 GMT -5
I asked why you seem to be defending a person who committed sexual assault, not that you defended sexual assault. I have compassion, snow, for my living breathing fellow human beings. Do you? Cue Don Henley's, Dirty Laundry... it's so true, and so sad.
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Post by sofastarch on Feb 10, 2010 13:21:38 GMT -5
Maybe you should quit on this one, Jesse Lackman. Your compassion for the exworker is noted and appreciated. I hope you have compassion for the little boy if anything predatory happened, too. I can't imagine anyone would defend CSA, and you've been accused of blindly defending workers. If you aren't doing either one, you have a funny way of showing it. It's what you said along with what you should have said and didn't, that gives that impression.
It seems to me that the matter could be privately and legally dealt with and everyone here could keep their mouth shut and hold this information in their useful memory cache to be dispensed wisely at an appropriate time to appropriate people, rather than making rash comments about the people and the situation. Encourage your friends to locate and check the local sexual predators list in their area frequently. The young professing families I know who have been close to situations like this are notifying each other and being a little network for passing information if there's any to pass, not hiding it or being ashamed to talk about it. Nowadays, the safety of children trumps embarrassment in our friend & acquaintance group. If it isn't that way in your group, take Scholar Gal's advice and "Be the change you want to see." I'd also encourage you in your passing of information to be careful to pass facts, not emotions. Your message can be, "Please pay special attention to what's happening with your kids when _____ is around. I've heard of he/she has shown some questionable behavior."
In most states, it is first or second degree sexual charges if the victim ended up needing psychiatric help as a result of the infraction, so if this was a 4th degree conviction, there was doubt about the severity or the predatory nature of this occurance. Very few people on this board (if any)were witnesses to the offense, so how do we know? It's silly to act like we know when we don't know what happened. Rest assured that if the said exworker is not predatory in nature, that he will not be wrestling with any young boys anymore. If he is predatory, then he is listed in the proper legal channels to protect others. As said before here, education is the key.
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Post by degem on Feb 10, 2010 13:40:13 GMT -5
don't want to be recognized but i saw the convicted person at a convention-the thought crossed my mind wondered if an "eye" was being kept on him.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Feb 10, 2010 13:54:56 GMT -5
The opinions and stances held as facts in this thread are quite humorous. Clearday has an obvious difference in opinion from several others, including myself. He is very protective and that's his right in his family. I'm glad he's not a lawmaker in this area of the country, though.
Snow, I was agreeing with your post until I thought of the biting, gossiping women of this area in that particular belief system. I am sure there are many other areas where the people of the 'truth' start a conversation innocently about someone and it ends up putting that person in a very negative and untrue light. People get on the csa bandwagon or any other witch hunt and it can end up destroying innocent lives. I think you said earlier that most if not all of us were not at the event where the worker was wrestling with the kid. But people continue to judge. Even the lawmakers are not perfect. They continually put people in jail who do not belong there.
I think the key is to keep our own noses clean and teach our kids to do the same. Someone implied the kid should be defended, too. Was the kid innocent? Don't try to tell me no kid under the age of whatever thinks of sexual matters.
One other note before I go away and never return to this thread to see how many times I get bonked over the head for stating my opinion, someone said csa is not in the bible. Are you sure about that? Age of consent is a fairly recent law. 14 yr olds were having kids and marrying in the 1800's and it was considered normal. I know of two women in this area who were 13 and 14 when they married. One married a man in his late twenties. That happened in the 1930's. No csa in the bible?
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shiloh
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Post by shiloh on Feb 10, 2010 13:59:01 GMT -5
Pretty sad the workers are expected to be absolutely perfect while it's ok for the rest of us sit on our dead butts and criticise them through computer screens **** Only when they deserve criticism Jesse. But if they claim to be closer to God and have authority over God's people, shouldn't they at least obey the law?
This is a serious issue. Don't sweep it under the rug. Don't ignore it. Don't complain about people talking about it. STOP THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR.
The work has to be stressful and may create loneliness which can cause one to overstep their boundaries. Some may be so naive to not understand the damage they might do by feeling and touching a child.
Men especially have to be VERY CAREFUL. A single guy has to really be cautious. Don't be alone with someone's children. If you are in a situation, LEAVE as soon as possible. Keep at arm's length. Don't punch around or put your hand on them ANYWHERE. KEEP AT A DISTANCE. In other cultures it is different. In America, keep distance. Better be safe than sorry.
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Post by jhjmr on Feb 10, 2010 14:14:19 GMT -5
Jesse, it is good to learn the signals and responses for sexual abuse and to recogonize anything that is not right but what happens, when you know what is going on and you don't report it? Darren Briggs and his companion, BD, were in the home of the family where the accusation took place just a few days before and then, wow, the overseer and the companion took the accuser part way home and he was met by his parents. So, recogonizing the fact of what took place sure didn't help out the matter. If you recogonize it and then hide it, what good is training? Hiding the behavior is as much as a crime as committing the behavior!
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shiloh
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Post by shiloh on Feb 10, 2010 14:19:35 GMT -5
Photos of the workers involved in CSA should be posted on VOT photo gallery. So others know what these gentlemen look like!
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