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Post by sharonw on Jul 7, 2010 7:18:39 GMT -5
You forgot to mention the victims of the Mich. twins and their despicable acts. Not at all lin. I think the twins got off very lightly with the turmoil that they began rolling down a hill that amounted to an avalanche; the reputations of so many that were falsely accused will never be recouped to be fully intact as before the lies began to weave their deceitful web. I don't think the twins got off lightly...not really...their young lives are just as marked as those who were falsely accused....those girls will likely never get out from under that experience and all it has caused! One has to realize also, that it surely appears the girls were used to warrant out the known guilty ones, the falsely accused just gotten taken down in the process! Too bad, just stepping to the front and admitting that something had been hidden for a period of time could have started the right ball to rolling. No, as bad as it seems on some, I think God allowed this to go forth and I don't think it's all over yet! JMO
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Post by rational on Jul 7, 2010 10:12:44 GMT -5
Not at all lin. I think the twins got off very lightly with the turmoil that they began rolling down a hill that amounted to an avalanche; the reputations of so many that were falsely accused will never be recouped to be fully intact as before the lies began to weave their deceitful web. I don't think the twins got off lightly...not really...their young lives are just as marked as those who were falsely accused....those girls will likely never get out from under that experience and all it has caused! But there is the fact that what they did was wrong and the people they falsely accused were innocent. The girl's lives are marked because of their choice of actions. The innocent people did not have a choice. Nicolò Machiavelli would be proud! Personally I am not a believer in the idea that the ends justify the means. This is always an easy out. "The 5-year old was sexually abused for 7 years but it is not as bad as it seems because god allowed it to go on." I fail to see the logic in judging the morality of something by stating that god allowed it to happen.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 7, 2010 10:21:08 GMT -5
Not at all lin. I think the twins got off very lightly with the turmoil that they began rolling down a hill that amounted to an avalanche; the reputations of so many that were falsely accused will never be recouped to be fully intact as before the lies began to weave their deceitful web. I don't think the twins got off lightly...not really...their young lives are just as marked as those who were falsely accused....those girls will likely never get out from under that experience and all it has caused! One has to realize also, that it surely appears the girls were used to warrant out the known guilty ones, the falsely accused just gotten taken down in the process! Too bad, just stepping to the front and admitting that something had been hidden for a period of time could have started the right ball to rolling. No, as bad as it seems on some, I think God allowed this to go forth and I don't think it's all over yet! JMO Why blame God for our own messes. I love the cop out. It's God's purpose. People that say this don't understand what God is really like. Sorry rational I didn't read your post before I posted. We are on the same track though.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 7, 2010 13:43:08 GMT -5
I don't think the twins got off lightly...not really...their young lives are just as marked as those who were falsely accused....those girls will likely never get out from under that experience and all it has caused! One has to realize also, that it surely appears the girls were used to warrant out the known guilty ones, the falsely accused just gotten taken down in the process! Too bad, just stepping to the front and admitting that something had been hidden for a period of time could have started the right ball to rolling. No, as bad as it seems on some, I think God allowed this to go forth and I don't think it's all over yet! JMO Why blame God for our own messes. I love the cop out. It's God's purpose. People that say this don't understand what God is really like. Sorry rational I didn't read your post before I posted. We are on the same track though. I do not think it a cop out.. .for I'm certain of one thing, God uses the evil as much as He uses the good to bring about His Will...believe that if you can! That's what I'm saying....why there has to be innocents caught in such, I'm not certain but I'm sure trying to figure it out! I think it is the evil that overcomes the innocents and uses them, is what I think at the present time....
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Post by rational on Jul 7, 2010 17:02:30 GMT -5
Why blame God for our own messes. I love the cop out. It's God's purpose. People that say this don't understand what God is really like. Sorry rational I didn't read your post before I posted. We are on the same track though. I do not think it a cop out.. .for I'm certain of one thing, God uses the evil as much as He uses the good to bring about His Will...believe that if you can! God uses evil as an object lesson? God will use good and evil means to accomplish his goals? That doesn't sound right. So evil overcomes good and that is all part of god's plan. I would find it difficult to come to terms with such a world.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 7, 2010 17:46:27 GMT -5
I do not think it a cop out.. .for I'm certain of one thing, God uses the evil as much as He uses the good to bring about His Will...believe that if you can! God uses evil as an object lesson? God will use good and evil means to accomplish his goals? That doesn't sound right. So evil overcomes good and that is all part of god's plan. I would find it difficult to come to terms with such a world. Coming to terms is simply because of faith...in knowing it is all God's to do with as He pleases to start with...and His mercies are evident in every new morning any of us wake up to. The 73rd Psalm speaks to what God does with the evil, though for a time they prosper. Also God said that He was the one who made Pharoah what he was, and it was God that hardened Pharoah's heart, so that God's name would be glorified. Otherwords, it comes to me that God's name will be glorified one way or another by all of us, and He can harden our hearts so much that still His name will be glorified OR He can draw us and soften us until WE GLORIFY HIS NAME WILLINGLY!
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Post by rational on Jul 7, 2010 19:50:31 GMT -5
Coming to terms is simply because of faith...in knowing it is all God's to do with as He pleases to start with... So I take it you do not believe in the idea of absolute morality. I must say that is somewhat of a strange position for a theist. Made Pharaoh refuse to let the captives go so he could kill all the Egyptian firstborn to glorify himself. This is simply not moral behavior. In other words, god will butcher/torture/abuse women, children, old, infirm, etc., the beings he claims to love, just to glorify his name. This is like a parent who wants to hear his children say they love him, Either by giving them candy and treats until they say it or beating them until they do. In either case they are not saying it because they want to but because they have been bribed or beaten.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 8, 2010 7:23:41 GMT -5
Coming to terms is simply because of faith...in knowing it is all God's to do with as He pleases to start with... So I take it you do not believe in the idea of absolute morality. I must say that is somewhat of a strange position for a theist. Made Pharaoh refuse to let the captives go so he could kill all the Egyptian firstborn to glorify himself. This is simply not moral behavior. In other words, god will butcher/torture/abuse women, children, old, infirm, etc., the beings he claims to love, just to glorify his name. This is like a parent who wants to hear his children say they love him, Either by giving them candy and treats until they say it or beating them until they do. In either case they are not saying it because they want to but because they have been bribed or beaten. I believe that God has placed all of us where He wants us and when He wants us....how we handle that is entirely up to us...willingly giving God all the credit for our being, or making ourselves just being. No, it isn't like a parent bribing or beating...but it is like a parent wanting their child to love them and PROVE it by how they do. God knows we will sin and sometimes by choice, but when we reckon ourselves in that sin and repent before Him...then He is well pleased....but if we sin and do not reckon with that sin and keep on going without thought about what that sin has done to us and those around us, then God isn't happy about that because that is not showing our love for Him nor for our neighbor! Love is the hoped for ruling component, the operative in our lives...for when we love God priority and then we love our neighbors as ourselves, then when we sin we will reckon with that offense and who we offended!
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Post by rational on Jul 8, 2010 8:43:46 GMT -5
No, it isn't like a parent bribing or beating...but it is like a parent wanting their child to love them and PROVE it by how they do. God knows we will sin and sometimes by choice, but when we reckon ourselves in that sin and repent before Him...then He is well pleased....but if we sin and do not reckon with that sin and keep on going without thought about what that sin has done to us and those around us, then God isn't happy about that because that is not showing our love for Him nor for our neighbor! Looking back on what you said: Also God said that He was the one who made Pharoah what he was, and it was God that hardened Pharoah's heart, so that God's name would be glorified.God (being omnipotent) forced pharaoh to sin. This was not a choice for pharaoh. And then god used that as an excuse to kill the firstborn in Egypt. And god did that to bring glory to himself. You avoided the morality question. Do you think that was an example of moral behavior? How many parents do you know who want their children to prove they love them? You cannot demand love. It is like people who demand respect. It is something that one earns, not demands.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 8, 2010 8:45:24 GMT -5
Sounds like you believe in predestination. Do you think your one of the lucky ones? How would a person know? Does this sound like a fair just God?
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Post by snow on Jul 8, 2010 9:24:39 GMT -5
The god of the bible is not one I recognize as being a god, more an angry jealous child. This is one of the reasons I was an atheist for many years. I could not believe a god, if there was one, could be like that. And, if he was, I wanted nothing to do with that god. He was less moral than I was and that seemed rather ungodlike to me. However, I do believe now that there is a higher power due to experiences I have had in the last 10 years. That higher power bears no resemblence to the god of the bible or many other so called 'holy' scriptures. Sometimes I think this world would be better off if they looked at what their beliefs were and how they were affecting the world we live in.
I think the time has come to:
1. Acknowledge that some of our old belifs about God and about Life are no longer working (if they ever did). 2. Acknowledge that there is something you do not understand about God and about Life, the understanding of which could change everything. 3. Be willing for a new understanding of God and Life to now be brought forth, an understanding that could produce a new way of life on this planet. 4. Be courageous enough to explore and examine the new understanding and, if it aligns with your inner truth and knowing, to ENLARGE your belief system to include it.
We have stitched together in our world a complex interweaving of spiritual, philosophical, political and economic concepts that pretty much govern our collective experience. These concepts arise from certain mental constructions that we have formed on the basis of our false beliefs, and those mental construction - ideas about 'how things are', that we have literally built up in our mind - produce, in our outer experience, certain human social conventions. These conventions are ways of doing things, collections of behaviors, that create a frameowrk into which we pour our lives.
Many of us consider the mental constructions that have produced these social conventions to be the most importand and worthy in our entire human value system - when actually, they can be among the most detrimental.
They are often what stop us from doing something as simple as living together in peace and harmony and happiness.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 8, 2010 14:11:07 GMT -5
No, it isn't like a parent bribing or beating...but it is like a parent wanting their child to love them and PROVE it by how they do. God knows we will sin and sometimes by choice, but when we reckon ourselves in that sin and repent before Him...then He is well pleased....but if we sin and do not reckon with that sin and keep on going without thought about what that sin has done to us and those around us, then God isn't happy about that because that is not showing our love for Him nor for our neighbor! Looking back on what you said: Also God said that He was the one who made Pharoah what he was, and it was God that hardened Pharoah's heart, so that God's name would be glorified.God (being omnipotent) forced pharaoh to sin. This was not a choice for pharaoh. And then god used that as an excuse to kill the firstborn in Egypt. And god did that to bring glory to himself. You avoided the morality question. Do you think that was an example of moral behavior? How many parents do you know who want their children to prove they love them? You cannot demand love. It is like people who demand respect. It is something that one earns, not demands. moral question not purposefully avoided, rat! But what I believe is not something you want to grasp, so no need answering. God is not just any parent, He is the creator of ALL things and can may do what He so well pleases with any of it. It is NOT my place to question Him on any of it. And yes, I know it's often hard not to question....but as one old lady said as she took her last breath and entered into eternity..."If you don't understand now, YOU WILL!"
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Post by sharonw on Jul 8, 2010 14:15:14 GMT -5
As to a God that can be and do negative things...since we do not know the whole story about it all, then we have to have faith that God sees it all and thus ALLOWS some things to be so that in the end things are returned to what is good. I don't know how else to explain what I firmly know within me about our God.
NO one knows His counsel and NO one ever will! So for me to question what LITTLE I can see or witness is NOT correct simply because I do not see the whole picture as God does in there here and now and on down the road into the well distant future.
This has nothing to do with "morals" as man knows...it has to do with all things are Gods and He will do good things for those that love Him....He allows the evil for a time, then they/it will go to a short life's reward.
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Post by rational on Jul 8, 2010 14:19:34 GMT -5
moral question not purposefully avoided, rat! But what I believe is not something you want to grasp, so no need answering. I did not say it was purposefully avoided. I am always interested in what other people believer about morality, especially theists who very often believe in an absolute morality. By the same token, a child's parents are the creator of that child. I am guessing you do not feel they can do as they wish with that child. Does being the creator of something give license to be cruel? Unless, of course, it turns out she was simply dead.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 8, 2010 14:29:13 GMT -5
moral question not purposefully avoided, rat! But what I believe is not something you want to grasp, so no need answering. I did not say it was purposefully avoided. I am always interested in what other people believer about morality, especially theists who very often believe in an absolute morality. By the same token, a child's parents are the creator of that child. I am guessing you do not feel they can do as they wish with that child. Does being the creator of something give license to be cruel? Unless, of course, it turns out she was simply dead. As I've tried to say I do not see God as cruel BECAUSE I can not see the whole picture like He does! I think God can give "tough love" just like parents do, but I also think God "allows" people to do some things and although He does not purposefully cause that, He will use that as well to bring about His will....otherwords, He's up there in the highest heaven and He sees all the moves we make, and He can create such an "allowance" as to cause some of us to change our next move, so that God's will is done! I don't know how else to explain what I believe about God.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 8, 2010 14:30:39 GMT -5
Sounds like you believe in predestination. Do you think your one of the lucky ones? How would a person know? Does this sound like a fair just God? If you're speaking to what I believe, Lin...No, I don't believe in predestination in that some of us are "lucky" and some of us are "unlucky". I just believe God sees so far into the future that He just knows things far ahead of time.
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Post by rational on Jul 8, 2010 18:29:38 GMT -5
As I've tried to say I do not see God as cruel BECAUSE I can not see the whole picture like He does! So the morality of an act depends on the situation. Murder can be justified by a positive outcome? You consider god just in killing women and children because {insert reason here}? I have seen children who, according to their parents, had been the subjects of tough love. Some of those parents are still in prison. It sounds like you view god as sort of a puppet master, allowing events to happen that will cause/force his subjects to do his will and, in so doing, glorify his name. I don't know how else to explain what I believe about God.[/quote]
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Post by sharonw on Jul 8, 2010 19:34:04 GMT -5
As I've tried to say I do not see God as cruel BECAUSE I can not see the whole picture like He does! So the morality of an act depends on the situation. Murder can be justified by a positive outcome? You consider god just in killing women and children because {insert reason here}? Rat, I don't think God has anything to do with the murdering...it is plain to me that such despicable acts are because someone doesn't love God nor do they love their neighbor as themself. But God allows mankind that kind of choice, but He will in the long run see that evil deed is recompensed somehow, someway...maybe not in the timing that you or I think it needs to be, but He will see it rewarded just for what it was.I have seen children who, according to their parents, had been the subjects of tough love. Some of those parents are still in prison. I think God's interpretation of tough love is NOT the kind that maims and kills...but then that's my faith in God. All of us are His creation and so it hurts Him far more then it does your neighbor to see these cruel things parents do. Those parents that have done such in the name of "touch love" don't really know the concept of tough love, IMO and I'm sure in God's eyes they don't have a clue to what it means.It sounds like you view god as sort of a puppet master, allowing events to happen that will cause/force his subjects to do his will and, in so doing, glorify his name. No, I think God is NO puppet master, I think God just knows the hearts of mankind and He sees so far down the future that He pretty well knows when some goofball is going to screw up royally. And He knows He isn't going to be able to prevent mankind from doing such screwing up royally, but He can use that to glorify His name. The rescue that God put forth in the freeing of the Jewish people from the hard slavery under the Egyptian is the prime example of how God uses the evil hearts of mankind to bring about His greatness, His glory. Sometimes we do not live long enough ourselves to see such things happen...but it does happen and the evil mankind is rewarded accordingly. And yes, I know your opinion of the death of the firstborn Egyptians in that instance...but the firstborn were the ones who were the ones who would be taught exactly the same evil attitudes toward the slaves as their fathers....the firstborns were the hope of the Egyptian and any other tribe at that time....so to cut the slave masters down to size, it was to take the firstborn out of their families....making those Egyptian families realize just what they were doing and teaching those firstborn to take over as. JMOI don't know how else to explain what I believe about God. [/quote]
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Post by rational on Jul 8, 2010 21:29:49 GMT -5
Rat, I don't think God has anything to do with the murdering... According to the bible, all of the first born in Egypt were killed by god.In this case it was because god wanted to show people how powerful s/he was. I don't recall that anyone in Egypt had a choice.But you know that Pharaoh was ready to let the people go and god hardened his heart. There was no lesson to be taught. It was only an act of self glorification at the expense of human lives. But back to morality - where do you believe your moral code comes from?
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Post by 2 on Jul 8, 2010 21:54:08 GMT -5
I did not say it was purposefully avoided. I am always interested in what other people believer about morality, especially theists who very often believe in an absolute morality. By the same token, a child's parents are the creator of that child. I am guessing you do not feel they can do as they wish with that child. Does being the creator of something give license to be cruel? Unless, of course, it turns out she was simply dead. but rational, ALL you need to do is apply the laws of quantum physics, and you will understand that this world is not what you think it is, it is just a 'shadow' of the world that exists for all eternity (it is not made of the things of this world). we cannot judge our Creator, it is impossible to know what criteria is true/truth.... the ONLY hope we have is that our Creator knows what the truth is, if He doesn't, then there can be no truth. If God is our judge, who are we to judge God, that is impossible. That is like a defendant judging the judge of the Supreme Court, it will be a futility of infinite dimensions. hmmmm
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Post by sharonw on Jul 9, 2010 7:08:01 GMT -5
Rat, it just comes to me that in early days of creation that there were greater needs for God's power to be displayed so that man would know that there was a God and know his omniscient powers. There are things that seem cruel recorded in the bible...but as time went on we also seen man becoming more knowledgeable of God. And I think it continues even to this day. And as more mankind turns and calls on God, the less we see of His awesome power in dire ways.. And particularly after the advent of His only begotten Son's sacrifice on the cross. Otherwords, it seems to me that since Jesus' day that God has allowed men to be more accountable for their own actions. He wants people to freely admit their failures and sin and seek His favor through repentance or He has allowed mankind to make up their own laws of morality where a deviant behaviour is held accountable. That's just what it seems like to me.
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Post by ronhall on Jul 9, 2010 7:50:50 GMT -5
Rat, I don't think God has anything to do with the murdering... According to the bible, all of the first born in Egypt were killed by god.In this case it was because god wanted to show people how powerful s/he was. One must remember that God doesn't kill, in the sense that humans kill (commit murder or suicide). He shortens days of some and lengthens the days of others, as a power reserved to himself. The reason this is just is that he also has the power to raise from the dead and offers eternal life! Man also has the power to shorten days, but cannot rectify the situation by offering eternal life or raising from the dead. Man also has a limited power to lengthen the days by healthful living, modern medicine, etc. I also would believe God could look at the future lives of all those baby boys whose lives were taken as though they had lived their lives in full, and give them their just reward. However I have no specific scriptural passages to base this on aside from the concept that God is a just God.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 9, 2010 8:09:23 GMT -5
Time and chance happen to all
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2010 9:19:30 GMT -5
Time and chance happen to all If that's the case, God is not sovereign. You've now made a god of your own design and broken the first commandment. I believe Lin was quoting from Ecclesiastes 9:11 I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 9, 2010 9:21:25 GMT -5
I'm not saying God is not sovereign. I am saying God is not a micro-manager. We are diminishing the power of God and Who He is when we put him in subjection to looking out for our petty characteristics of humanism. We cheapen God by making Him like us.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 9, 2010 16:30:43 GMT -5
I'm not saying God is not sovereign. I am saying God is not a micro-manager. We are diminishing the power of God and Who He is when we put him in subjection to looking out for our petty characteristics of humanism. We cheapen God by making Him like us. Thanks, this is what I've been trying to tell Rat! God can see so far ahead and He knows what has passed in the past and He also knows what people plan to do at any particular moment...but He does NOT try to manage people in their evilness..if that's a word. If a person is not in tune with God, Tod has nothing to do with what happens with or around that person...but you can bet He will use what that person is responsible for in the evil to bring glory to His name....as Pharoah was used, so will those who are not in tune with God's will. When children die because of something that goes on, it is as it was said, they enter into an eternity with little to nothing to be accountable for...they will be sure of God's mercy is my belief. Actually in the situation of the firstborn children dying in Egypt those children were actually spared of being accountable ofr the horrible oppressions that they would have learned at their parents' side...the pain was not of the children, it was their parents' pain...the children were spared actually. It is hard to think of it like that, but it is so.
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Post by ronhall on Jul 9, 2010 19:58:04 GMT -5
And even if a fellowship meeting is specially tailored to accommodate this situation, what about drop-ins.
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Post by fred on Jul 9, 2010 20:59:34 GMT -5
And even if a fellowship meeting is specially tailored to accommodate this situation, what about drop-ins. I am aware of a ex-worker recently released from seven (?) years at Her Majesty's pleasure - it will be interesting to see if he is allowed tor return to meetings or if special arrangements are made.
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