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Post by straight story on Feb 6, 2007 12:14:15 GMT -5
"The workers involvment is similar to the Alberta conviction of an elder for child pornography. The fellows brother and family where excommunicated a few years earlier for suggesting this tendency in the poor man. The workers then supported the offender blind (and helped to cover his tracks), until he was arrested (workers were living in the home) when the police came. "
Not true Edgar. These people were excommunicated for allowing other excommunicated people into their Sunday meeting.
It's true they complained to the workers about the man's sick fetishes and the workers foolishly chose not to believe them. It's not why they were excommunicated.
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people are not perfect
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Post by people are not perfect on Feb 6, 2007 12:23:21 GMT -5
It is often mentioned that "The Way is perfect,but the people are NOT! I mean ,umm, look at you Edgar, you were once a worker! How many more "Edgars" may still be in the work?
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Post by back it up on Feb 6, 2007 12:24:01 GMT -5
Edgar, which workers allegedly openly requested that Mata's criminal conduct be kept quiet? This needs to be addressed openly too. Agreed. Most F&W that I know would want it addressed and reported immediately. Rather than a cover-up, it sounds like a couple cowardly workers. The majority of F&W would want the cowardly behavior addressed as well.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 12:42:37 GMT -5
Edgar, which workers allegedly openly requested that Mata's criminal conduct be kept quiet? This needs to be addressed openly too. Agreed. Most F&W that I know would want it addressed and reported immediately. Rather than a cover-up, it sounds like a couple cowardly workers. The majority of F&W would want the cowardly behavior addressed as well. I understand that the 'cover it up' campaign was firmly backed (and enforced) by California leadership at the time. Richard Middleton is name that was deeply involved in it - and he had a big public relations following. This "most F&W that I know would want it addressed" feeling is only true until it collides with leadership policy!!! Then most F&W are quite willing to sell the principle for a 'pat on the back' (or a mess of pottage!). People that have given their everything for a belief, will do anything to save their investment!!! However wrong it proves to be.
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Post by to back it up on Feb 6, 2007 12:49:37 GMT -5
Edgar, which workers allegedly openly requested that Mata's criminal conduct be kept quiet? This needs to be addressed openly too. Agreed. Most F&W that I know would want it addressed and reported immediately. Rather than a cover-up, it sounds like a couple cowardly workers. The majority of F&W would want the cowardly behavior addressed as well. Statistics alone give evidence that ministerial coverups of child molestation by workers (and others) was once standard practice. It is inconceivable that a group like this with unmarried ministers could go on as long as it did with very few charges brought against offenders, while having lots of unexplained resignations. It's a given that this style of minstry will attract sexual and child predators more than most professions. But where are they in this group, except that they have been covered up? It all adds up to systemic coverups. I understand that many areas have implemented a "zero tolerance" for accusations of molestation. If it is still going on in places like California, it needs to be fully brought to the light. My personal opinion is that the Mata case and the Nevada case are evidence of the implementation of the zero tolerance policy. If not, let's hear the truth!
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Post by wkcs on Feb 6, 2007 12:50:39 GMT -5
Workers telling people to keep quiet about scandal is nothing new.
There are a number of people reading the boards that could attest to this, if they so choose to.
There are probably a number of people who have direct knowledge of this child molestation case that KNOW it is true but not speaking up.
Probably the same person is posting again and again and again making 1 poster or possibly 2-sound like a whole crowd.
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Post by re DickM on Feb 6, 2007 12:53:42 GMT -5
Good one Edgar, level your sole accusation against a dead man. The coverup is sounding less credible all the time.
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Post by troubled on Feb 6, 2007 12:56:51 GMT -5
Edgar, I find it troubling that you will not post the sites that provide proof for your allegations. If there are such sites they are public domain. You will note that several have searched for them with no success. Don't damage your credibility by refusing to share the information you have.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 12:57:00 GMT -5
Like someone earlier on this thread wrote, the fact that there are folks who make serious sexual errors amongst a group as large as the 2x2 group, is not all that surprizing. And wouldn't neccesarily reflect on the groups moral values.
The fact this is so completely incriminating is the enormous cover up system that has developed by leadership to, in principle, protect the perpetrators from the consequences of their actions. In sexual abuse cases, this is always done at the expense of the victims. They often have a weak status in the group, and thus are expendable!!
The 2x2 group doesn't have a monopoly on the issue -- The Catholic church has been rocked by similar scandles -- but it seems to me they have been forced to come to terms with the problem.
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Post by to wkcs on Feb 6, 2007 13:11:50 GMT -5
"Probably the same person is posting again and again and again making 1 poster or possibly 2-sound like a whole crowd."
This statement borders on goofy.
I can't speak for other posters calling for truthfulness, but I have posted more than once this morning but not to sound like a whole crowd, nonsense.
I have one big motivation on this topic and it has nothing to do with 2x2ism directly. I want to see children protected from molestation under the noses of unsuspecting parents. It's a heinous crime, one of the worst imo. Those who harbor such criminals are equally guilty and should be exposed, if not brought to justice.
However, false accusation is also terrible. The way Edgar is dancing around the subject it is either false accusation or it will come out that this is history and bears no resemblance to present policies. Of course, if it is true that coverups are no longer practiced amongst 2x2s, it ruins Edgar's whole story and purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 13:26:06 GMT -5
Denial is a leven that seems to infect the complete 2x2 idiology. If it isn't positive then it didn't happen. Rather amazing that this particular issue is brought into question -- if ever there was a so clearly defined instance of utterly vile behavior (documented in a court of law) it is this one. Yet denial is the only reaction that 2x2 supporters seem to be able to come up with. More proof, more proof, more proof is the only responce folks can think of --- I can understand the panic -- it is rather hard to justify, except by the demand for 'more proof, more proof, more proof!!!
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Post by Denial on Feb 6, 2007 13:34:48 GMT -5
Denial is a leven that seems to infect the complete 2x2 idiology. If it isn't positive then it didn't happen. Rather amazing that this particular issue is brought into question -- if ever there was a so clearly defined instance of utterly vile behavior (documented in a court of law) it is this one. Yet denial is the only reaction that 2x2 supports seem to be able to come up with. More proof, more proof, more proof is the only responce folks can think of --- Denial is infectious it seems Edgar. You are faced with evidence that molestation coverups are no longer a practice in 2x2s but you refuse to face it and acknowledge it. Denial denial indeed. Get real my friend.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 13:41:22 GMT -5
Denial is a leven that seems to infect the complete 2x2 idiology. If it isn't positive then it didn't happen. Rather amazing that this particular issue is brought into question -- if ever there was a so clearly defined instance of utterly vile behavior (documented in a court of law) it is this one. Yet denial is the only reaction that 2x2 supports seem to be able to come up with. More proof, more proof, more proof is the only responce folks can think of --- Denial is infectious it seems Edgar. You are faced with evidence that molestation coverups are no longer a practice in 2x2s but you refuse to face it and acknowledge it. Denial denial indeed. Get real my friend. "No longer a practice"!! Are you admiting that molestation coverups have been a common practice in the 2x2 group in the past? The change has come quite recently as this case was just sentenced in January -- this is the 6th of February!!! -- Have you seen any openness from the workers on this case? Seems pretty hush hush from cult supporters yet, to me!!!
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Post by denial on Feb 6, 2007 13:43:52 GMT -5
Denial is a leven that seems to infect the complete 2x2 idiology. If it isn't positive then it didn't happen. Rather amazing that this particular issue is brought into question -- if ever there was a so clearly defined instance of utterly vile behavior (documented in a court of law) it is this one. Yet denial is the only reaction that 2x2 supporters seem to be able to come up with. More proof, more proof, more proof is the only responce folks can think of --- I can understand the panic -- it is rather hard to justify, except by the demand for 'more proof, more proof, more proof!!! Edgar, you seem to suggest that some here don't believe your hearsay. That's not true. It's just that hearsay raises doubts, and rightfully so. I would like to see some action on this, not a bunch of idle gossip. Information says that Mata confessed to police on some old molestation offences in 2000. When did DickM, EldonT, HaroldH and DaleS become aware of this confession? When did they fire Mata from the work? IF these two dates don't match within days of each other, you have not only a terrible coverup, but men who wilfully allowed a confessed molester to live in homes where children were present. Don't shoot the messenger Edgar. Everyone here is on your side (or should I say on the side of innocent children) but some don't want gossip and hearsay.
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Post by Denial on Feb 6, 2007 13:52:45 GMT -5
" "No longer a practice"!! Are you admiting that molestation coverups have been a common practice in the 2x2 group in the past? The change has come quite recently as this case was just sentenced in January -- this is the 6th of February!!! -- Have you seen any openness from the workers on this case? Seems pretty hush hush from cult supporters yet, to me!!! "
I made the post earlier today that statistical evidence points strongly to a pattern of systematic coverups, so your "gotcha" is pretty weak.
I personally know of more than one case where the workers demanded that accusations be taken to the police, even where the alleged victim was unwilling to do so. They don't broadcast that either, and probably accounts for your ignorance on current practices. But you probably don't want to know that zero tolerance exists today until you can figure out a way to make that look bad too.
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Post by IOWA BOY on Feb 6, 2007 14:02:22 GMT -5
" "No longer a practice"!! Are you admiting that molestation coverups have been a common practice in the 2x2 group in the past? The change has come quite recently as this case was just sentenced in January -- this is the 6th of February!!! -- Have you seen any openness from the workers on this case? Seems pretty hush hush from cult supporters yet, to me!!! "I made the post earlier today that statistical evidence points strongly to a pattern of systematic coverups, so your "gotcha" is pretty weak. I personally know of more than one case where the workers demanded that accusations be taken to the police, even where the alleged victim was unwilling to do so. They don't broadcast that either, and probably accounts for your ignorance on current practices. But you probably don't want to know that zero tolerance exists today until you can figure out a way to make that look bad too. YOU PERSONALLY KNOW OF 1......, 1 CASE OUT OF HOW MANY 10'S IF NOT 100'S HAVE GONE BY HUSH, HUSH. IOWA HAS HAD A FEW HUSH-UPS. FACT, NOT FICTION. THOSE READING FROM IOWA KNOW WHAT I SPEAK OF AND WHOM I SPEAK. 1 CASE IS NOT EVEN A PERCENTAGE OF THE SIN-RIDDEN SHAME THAT FOLLOWS THIS GROUP. JIM
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Post by zero tolerance on Feb 6, 2007 14:04:48 GMT -5
It does not surprise me if the 2X2 system has now come to a place of zero tolerance for this issue. Indeed, society, in general, arrived there some time ago.
Because 2X2ism tends to be a little insular, then it's not surprising to me, for them to lag behind society in general. But, good for them, if they have now found the will to deal appropriately with these kinds of issues so that the offender does not get the opportunity to re-offend.
Thirty years ago when there was a case of sexual misconduct by a worker involving minor in the geographic region I grew up in, it was dealt with relatively openly within the 2X2 system. The worker was removed, the friends were all told, and the individual was given no opportunity to re-offend (at least within the system). This was probably remarkable for that time.
However, like others heavily invested in the system, I can remember thinking "Thank goodness the media never got wind of this."
To me, now, such a stance would be unthinkable. It is not just because I am no longer invested in the system. Like others, I am now accustomed to living in a society that has the will to deal with these kinds of issues openly and to enforce zero tolerance. It hasn't always been this way.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 14:08:36 GMT -5
In child abuse, if you choose to reject all accounts accept versions with documented multiple independant witnesses -- You are actlively giving offenders the permission to go wherever their lusts may lead them --- as long as no one is watching. It is this cult principle incorporated into 2x2 doctrine that fosters sexual perversion.
This Mata case is as clear cut as it comes -- complaint were filed with workers years and years ago .... at one point workers were forced to ask him to leave the work (without making any honest open explanation as to why (and without reporting it to the police), but in spite of this he was placed in a meeting with young children.
Of course, you don't have to believe me if you also wish it wasn't true .. but this does not change the fact that innocent children (including the boys raped later on) were very consciously put at risk by the workers involved.
If you are asking for 'the work' to be absolved because of the statute of limitations (as happened with the crime against one lad who testified at the trial) --- I have yet to see any remorse by cult leadership.
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Post by las logged out on Feb 6, 2007 14:10:28 GMT -5
I had no idea sexual abuse was so bad within the two by two organization
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Post by las logged out on Feb 6, 2007 14:13:23 GMT -5
California 2x2 leadership forbid friends to report their suspisions about a worker to law enforcement, but it seems that when the case was finally brougth to court recently, things proved much much much more serious than even the most critical folks could imagine. The sentence indicates that it wasn't just a few isolated misses in social wisdom!!! This issue, involving a worker, was being actively hidden by senior workers, at the same time as this other case (discussed recently on this list) of unjust and unproven accusation, was being persued by workers against a lower ranking fellow that for some reason they wanted to be publicly condemned. I hope there are facts to back up these accusations. It's in court
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Post by space ranger on Feb 6, 2007 14:13:51 GMT -5
Edgar,
Sometimes, I reckon that you protesteth too much.
Have you a past in these matters??
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Post by kathy lewis on Feb 6, 2007 14:27:55 GMT -5
I am from Oregon and have only heard of the Reuben Mata case second hand. I was expecting that those from California would be more forthcoming but so far they haven't given the details, probably because they don't want to be attacked in the same way people have attacked Edgar Massey for exposing the scandals.
This quote came from someone in California.
"I do not have Reuben's case number but this is what I have received in an email from one of my other cousins who was at the sentencing.
Reuben got 6 years for the first count and 15 for the second and 15 for the third. That is consecutive, so he has a total of 36 years to life. He would be 90 by that time so there isn't much chance for him to ever be on the street again. The judge talked to him pretty straight and told him he chose this himself because he had plenty of time to change during the years before the trial after he turned himself in, etc. The judge almost broke down when she was talking to him. She told him he was not at all eligible for parole and even if he was she wouldn't give it to him! I really don't know too much more regarding Reuben but certainly feel the judge was good and am glad for the sentencing. I was not aware that he had turned himself in and wonder what the judge did mean by that statement."
I was told that Reuben's mom and the head workers did everything they could to keep him from being prosecuted. They did not want people to find out.
There was a brother worker, Duane Wong, in Oregon who was sent to jail for several years for molesting multiple children while he was in the worker. He was put out of the work, and got married and then molested his own daughter.
There was a worker from the state of Washington who was in Africa for a number of years and he was sent home from Africa and put out of the work for the same reason and then he married and adopted children and molested his daughter.
I have a whole list of workers and elders who have been found guilty of this problem through the years. I suspect that the reason that the head workers cover up the problem is because there are so many sexual scandals that if they got rid of them all, they wouldn't have many workers left. One exworker told me that when the workers are together, they often discuss the latest scandals. So, it isn't as if these things are being done without anyone's knowledge. The head workers are usually the earliest ones to hear about them because the other workers must report up. In fact, they are trained to tell the head workers everything.
Why do you people, who are so quick to defend the workers, actually think that this kind of a lifestyle does not proliferate such problems?
I don't feel as judgmental against these workers as I do against the system that sets everyone up for sexual problems. It is the system that is more evil than the workers. Workers are more victimized by this system than anyone.
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Post by A Link on Feb 6, 2007 14:36:00 GMT -5
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from previous thread
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Post by from previous thread on Feb 6, 2007 14:36:50 GMT -5
EXCEPTS from letter: The person in question was removed from the 2x2 ministry in 2001. Areas of Concern: Fresno County, Kern County, Tulare County, Selma and Hanford, CA area,as well as other places in California. Richard (Richard) Middleton is the overseer of this ministry for California for the year 2002-2003 in the Lodi-Placerville area. The ministers of this religion work in pairs, and his companion for the year 2002-2003 is listed as Harold Hilton. Mr. Middleton would have been the person responsible for this expulsion from the ministry, and he undoubtedly is fully aware of whatever accusations Mr. Middleton is not unaware of child molestation in his ministry. I reminded him that, while the ministry advocated the prosecution of lay people for sexual offences, the ministry has on numerous occasions sheltered their own members from prosecution for child molestation. He admitted that was true. ....................................................... 1. The trial was in Santa Clara County, CA. 2. Ruben was charged with three counts, summarized here: a. Penal Code section 288(b)(1) Lewd or lascivious act on a child by force, violence, duress menace and fear. b. Penal Code section 269 Aggravated sexual assault of a child under 14 and 10 or more years younger than the defendant, by violation of penal code section 288a, Oral Copulation, by force, violence, duress, menace and fear. c. Penal Code section 269 Aggravated sexual assault of a child under 14 and 10 or more years younger than the defendant, by violation of penal code section 288a, Oral Copulation, by force, violence, duress, menace and fear. 3. He was found guilty of all three counts. .................................................... Elmwood Correctional Facility Inmate Details First Name: RUBEN PFN: DWI200 Last Name: MATA CEN: 06034897 Middle Name: R Housing Facility: ELMWOOD M-4 Sex: M Bail Amount: No Bail Allowed Date Of Birth: 8/11/1945 Release Date: Booking Date: 05/23/2006 eservices.sccgov.org/ovr/find_inmate.do
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Post by gregleepluggedin on Feb 6, 2007 14:40:23 GMT -5
I personally know of more than one case where the workers demanded that accusations be taken to the police, even where the alleged victim was unwilling to do so.Two things come to mind: 1 - Was the alleged culprit a non-worker? 2 - Did the workers think the allegations were false and hoped by pressing the matter thta they would go away?
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Post by investigate on Feb 6, 2007 14:41:23 GMT -5
seems like Edgar is now the one being put on trial - by this board.
No wonder one people don't tell.
Most people don't tell because they know they Will probably not be believed. It comes that they are the ones on trial.
If things are not swept under the carpet, why is Ira Hobbs allowed to continue in the ministry instead of being asked to step down and an investigation is being carried out by the workers into the allegations.
A number of people have tried to speak out about abuse by workers and elders in this group and they have been shut up. I know if a number who have also left because of this happening. Believe me or not, doesn't matter, God knows the truth.
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Post by To Ms Lewis on Feb 6, 2007 14:45:40 GMT -5
Kathy,
I dont think anyone condones peodiphles. In fact I am sure they dont.'
The suggestion that there are literly hundreds of workers who are inclined that way is a bit over the top.
In all this we, as parents, have a duty of care and responsibility to our children. We must be vigilant of all people to ensure that we do not place our children in places of danger. Common sense and diligence will ensure that we lessen the risks.
I can honestly say that I was always accutely aware of the dangers of improper behaviour and was diligent in my protection of my children. If anyone had touched my children, be he the president or pope, I would have persured him to the end of the earth.
And Edgar, if this has been happening for years, why did you not do something about it when you were in the work?
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Post by scared on Feb 6, 2007 14:54:18 GMT -5
Denial is a leven that seems to infect the complete 2x2 idiology. If it isn't positive then it didn't happen. Rather amazing that this particular issue is brought into question -- if ever there was a so clearly defined instance of utterly vile behavior (documented in a court of law) it is this one. Yet denial is the only reaction that 2x2 supporters seem to be able to come up with. More proof, more proof, more proof is the only responce folks can think of --- I can understand the panic -- it is rather hard to justify, except by the demand for 'more proof, more proof, more proof!!! Edgar, you seem to suggest that some here don't believe your hearsay. That's not true. It's just that hearsay raises doubts, and rightfully so. I would like to see some action on this, not a bunch of idle gossip. Information says that Mata confessed to police on some old molestation offences in 2000. When did RichardM, EldonT, HaroldH and DaleS become aware of this confession? When did they fire Mata from the work? IF these two dates don't match within days of each other, you have not only a terrible coverup, but men who wilfully allowed a confessed molester to live in homes where children were present. Don't shoot the messenger Edgar. Everyone here is on your side (or should I say on the side of innocent children) but some don't want gossip and hearsay. A cover up is when the workers hear rumors about things and send the worker to another area to get him away from what is circulating. That is cover up. Not getting rid of the worker when it gets to the authorities. I think the workers may be acting sooner now due to the amount of concern and condemnation from others for not doing so. in other words, pressure from outside. I wonder how many workers will be left to do the job of getting rid of workers who commit crimes due to the amount that are doing it. I guess a lot are getting scared.
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