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Post by Sylvestra on Jun 27, 2012 14:53:50 GMT -5
That list describes my job more accurately than it describes my church. I was thinking that it described the nation of Japan before WW II or China back in the days of Marco Polo. Well, interesting. My son told me one time (a young 20's at the time) that the F&W were communist. At 45 he still believes that!
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Post by intercessor on Jul 27, 2012 18:08:23 GMT -5
I fell very much like pauper . ia m newer to the truth but have never believed that all other churches are false. I love the meetings in the home. wish I could find something similar that did not trust in the fellowship for salvation. I believe that in itself can be a god that is put before the blood of Christ . I know the word says there is only one way and that is throught Jesus Christ not the thruth. It seems there is enough truth to keep one going even though that little question nags.
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nsis
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Post by nsis on Jul 28, 2012 3:34:35 GMT -5
I fell very much like pauper . ia m newer to the truth but have never believed that all other churches are false. I love the meetings in the home. wish I could find something similar that did not trust in the fellowship for salvation. I believe that in itself can be a god that is put before the blood of Christ . I know the word says there is only one way and that is throught Jesus Christ not the thruth. It seems there is enough truth to keep one going even though that little question nags. intersessor, from what I know, you DON'T have to trust in the fellowship for salvation. Even so you can still go to the meetings & have your own peace in God because it is He that is your primary relationship thru Christ.
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andie
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Post by andie on Feb 23, 2013 5:31:49 GMT -5
Oh I really feel for Pauper and intercessor... I had a friend who met with messed up people, who messed up the Word of God and justified themselves. Occasionally I hear someone speak like that, as if they are righteous, or as if salvation is from obeying 'rules' or doing certain things and it makes me cringe. I really feel sorry for everyone who felt brainwashed or controlled by the workers, too. That's totally not right and I'm sure that in most cases it's not intended. I guess I was safe from that because I think things through myself a lot, none of this 'always-believe-what-the-workers-say-nonsense' and the bible is very clear that the only one who stands between us and God is Jesus. Maybe I'm a little rebellious and stubborn, but whatever the reason, no worker has ever told me what to do. No-one has ever pressured me and when I've asked for help and advice in a sticky situation, they've been very sweet and careful to just support and encourage me without telling me what to do. They have been like wise friends. But... every individual is different and we all have a certain amount of influence over each other, so I can understand that some have been controlling, some have been, well... every type of human failing there is... All I can do is make sure I'm a positive and healthy influence to those around me, and keep close to God. This is an individual walk and fellowship is only to help and encourage us. Can I also admit here that I professed when I first found God for myself, in prayer, in secret and a little bit of faith, willingness and trust was born. I saw 'rules' like wearing skirts and not having a tv and I was willing for it just to be close to God. It was years later that I got another revelation that allowed the 'boundaries' to fall away, also through desperate prayer, in secret, and I heard everything that the workers and friends said differently! It's like the light was turned on. I just feel so grateful and so much love even remembering this time, and I wonder how many people actually get that gift. About the same time, a friend of mine was sitting in the meetings and looking around thinking how awful that everyone was being brainwashed like this. She no longer comes to meetings, but she's a special friend to me and we keep in touch just the same. She never had the same kind of revelation as I did and so to her our way of life was a bit like a confusing, controlling prison. So I can understand why some might think of it as a cult... maybe in some places, with some people it has been like that. (Can we keep fixing that?!!!!) But anyway, it's nothing like a cult to me, people come in, people go, people usually love it and as an adult I've never had to do anything I didn't chose to do with my own heart and mind. (Look out if they try!!! ) Of course I had to do what my parents told me when I was young, but as childhoods go, it was on the lucky side of normal. Hope this helps explain why the meetings aren't a cult. 'Let no man take YOUR crown' Hugs all xo.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2013 23:50:33 GMT -5
This is soo strange to me because as a child I was plain snd simply taught we as a group were a cult/sect of those who believed Christ is\was the way to walk in, the truth to believe that and te life I was to live. That I was to dare to be a Daniel, dare to stand alone, dare to have a purpose and dare to make it known! Is not ALL of that taught still in that unchanging message and "system" taught to be the only way to walk in?
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Post by holdmyhand on Feb 24, 2013 5:17:11 GMT -5
This is soo strange to me because as a child I was plain snd simply taught we as a group were a cult/sect of those who believed Christ is\was the way to walk in, the truth to believe that and te life I was to live. That I was to dare to be a Daniel, dare to stand alone, dare to have a purpose and dare to make it known! Is not ALL of that taught still in that unchanging message and "system" taught to be the only way to walk in? It's probably over 40 years since I heard that spoken. Now adays the unspoken message is "Don't you dare stand alone"
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 24, 2013 17:13:10 GMT -5
What's that supposed to mean?
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Post by holdmyhand on Feb 24, 2013 21:23:36 GMT -5
What's that supposed to mean? 40 years ago Dare to be a Daniel was quoted often, As an encouragement to stand true to our convictions regardless of the cost Today it is about confirming to the current overseers personal opinion, and if you dare to be different, (stand true to conviction) don't be surprised if there are consequences
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Post by sharonw on Mar 21, 2013 13:41:55 GMT -5
There are definite specifics that define a cult. I don't have the list in front of me, but there are things that define a movement as a cult or not. As with all things, everything is subject to interpretation, and then it goes further to whom the interpretation is done by. I have to use the old saying, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it most likely is a duck. In order to be a cult, the movement need not follow every aspect described as a cult, according to the description. If enough items are descriptive enough to have the group appear as a cult, then it must be given the label as a cult. I did some serious soul searching about certain aspects of whether or not this 2x2 group was to be considered a cult, and my conclusions at first were shaky. As I got further away from the influence and involvement with the group, I came to the conclusion that enough of the cult requirements had been met, and I was satisfied in my mind that it was a cult. I know this will be attacked as a negative statement, but I feel like the men and women that started this were trying to find a way to get and keep their members, and fear and mind control were two very important aspects that developed in the long run. Whether or not this was intentional or not, and whether of not the evolution of the ideas was meant to achieve this goal was intentional, or not, I feel like that line was established clearly enough for me. I was shocked when I realized I had been brainwashed, and held by the grip of fear, not from a scriptural point of view, but by "Men's" tweaking and twisting scriptures and making rules and I found that I was victim of these two things, intentional or not. If it was not intentional, it was picked up on and pushed to the limit by those that came after the Irvines, Cooney's, Longs, and others. As I always try to convey, that I have friends involved as active members in the group, and I feel like they are in a position that their lives are lived in a way that they are living in the fashion that God wants from them, so again, when I speak of these things, I am referring to the system, and not the people. Each person is an individual and as such, has a responsibility to God. The brainwashing, mind control and other negative aspects are, in my opinion to be those things that make it a cult, and affect a certain amount of people that are connected with the group, and can not be denied that they exist, and affect that part of the "population" of the group that is more than obvious. There may be what some may consider to be positive aspects from those tactics, to be 'good for certain individuals' and I can only state that whether or not they are positive will be determined on the other side of the life/death gate. I agree that in general labeling this as a cult may seem harsh, and will definitely draw a negative response from some readers, but if not this, they would generally make them have to work a little harder to find other things that would render an negative connotation to the group. I am just being honest in what I see as a reality and as one that was there, and left because the tactics were too dishonest for me and I couldn't handle that methods of "getting me in line to tow the line". I hope this will be viewed for what it really is, and not just a bash session. One man's trash is another man's treasure. One man's cult is another man's salvation. Just a saying that sums up my feelings, again not calling anything trash....Laz Laz, I think the very depth of your thought that one man's cult is another man's salvation. And I find that true in the 2x2 fellowship...and that is making the 2x2 workers and fellowship their salvation could be the very thing that bring eternal loss! I suspect that those who "control" those who are controlled will answer for those who they control...but those who willingly and continually say that the 2x2 workers and/or the fellowship is their salvation will be those who miss out altogether IF they don't turn their minds and hearts to the Redeemer who is their salvation and I mean turn completely to that Redeemer, letting no man get in between you! That is what declaring Jesus as God and believing it completely does for a person...it eliminates the "middle man" of a person's salvation. I found the fellowship to often be allowing the workers the position and power of Jesus' place between the fellowshipper and God. This is dangerous and I keep praying that more and more see this for themselves before it is too late. I am not saying to negate or push the workers out of it, but delegate them to the place that they claim as their own and that is Apostle and "servant".....the Apostles did not step inbetween Jesus and anyone else now did they?
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Post by sharonw on Mar 21, 2013 13:52:31 GMT -5
I fell very much like pauper . ia m newer to the truth but have never believed that all other churches are false. I love the meetings in the home. wish I could find something similar that did not trust in the fellowship for salvation. I believe that in itself can be a god that is put before the blood of Christ . I know the word says there is only one way and that is throught Jesus Christ not the thruth. It seems there is enough truth to keep one going even though that little question nags. Intercessor, there are "home church meetings" about in nearly every town/city....some are related to some of the established churches and some are simply Christians who prefer that form of fellowship...it IS a very personal type of fellowship, where people feel like "family"...so I can see why it is desirable. Now also intercessor, keep in your mind always that Jesus IS THE WAY....and that might keep those who seek control of you a hand and arm distanced from your....It is true that Jesus said the Way is narrow and way is strait. Look at the definition of "strait", that is speaking to a part of a ship's passage through an area that is full of dangerous rocks and other kinds of danger.....it isn't necessarily "straight", but hopefully there are enough lengths of the "strait and narrow" way that is long enough that a large ship can make it through the strait! Getting the right interpretation of scriptural words is not really found so much in the 2x2 fellowship/workership. The reason being the workers do not attend any kind of "bible classes that would give them the upper hand on knowing what the bible was really saying. The friends, for the most part, rely on the worker's sermons to tell them things they don't know about the bible....that is a shot in the foot there. Now that more and more young people raised in the fellowship are getting higher education, they're realizing more and more that the normal interpretation they'd heard for bible scriptures just isn't right....so wither they stay in the fellowship and work out a way to see for themselves what the scriptures are really about OR they just leave the fellowship because they see nothing that the scriptures are telling people. So best of luck, hanging in there in a place you like but where you'll learn what the scriptures are really saying.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2013 17:53:43 GMT -5
The Truth has its good points and is not so good points. I believe children during the 1970s, 80s and before weren't given an option to explore their religious beliefs. Parents have put pressure on children to profess and stressed that they offer for the "harvest field". There is subtle and not so subtle pressure to profess and then conform to certain "standards". Yes it varies with the generation, family and field. I see why some love it and others hate it. It is what it is. If you enjoy it, by all means keep on going to the meetings. If you don't enjoy it, consider the possibility that you can be saved in another church or no church at all. I have met spiritual workers who spent time reading and praying. I have also met some who seemed interested in pressuring their friends to fit in and fill their place in the Kingdom. There is group pressure. And certain families have their own expected behaviors and norms. It is a very complicated thing. Strive to be happy and content. There is no reward in being a nervous, insecure, unhappy human being. Enjoy life to its fullest. As a California sister worker said, ENLARGE YOUR BOUNDARIES. I was taught that so called worldly Christians were evil, fake, hellbound etc.I found out that there are people just as good and maybe even better than a majority of professing saints. Good luck. The Truth is many things to many people.
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Post by lazarus66 on Apr 19, 2013 14:25:52 GMT -5
One would have to explain the problems that returning war veterans frequently experience.
Especially Viet Nam. Many that were prisoners or experienced traumatic things were deeply affected. They did not choose to be affected, but being exposed to some of the things that they were exposed to, affected their minds. One thing we will never know is if all of the people that were in combat were affected, because some may not show it. I doubt that they could witness seeing headless bodies hanging from trees, people blowing up babies and things like that, and not be affected.
I feel that when you are exposed to something as a child, and it is pounded into your head, you are being "conditioned" "brainwashed" or what every you want to call it. When I was exposed to this, being an abused child, I knew I was a "bad" person and every night, I hated to go to sleep because I knew I would die and go to hell. Where would that come from, and should a child be thinking like that. I think that the constant barrage of "right and wrong" according to the workers, and with them being the only way, so many would be going to hell, you become "conditioned/brainwashed" and that makes the meetings a cult. Some do not buy into the whole thing, and others manage to get thru with their minds intact, but I feel that just because it didn't get everyone, it still is a cult. Not everyone that was "brainwashed" by the Moonies were affected to where they could not get out without major deprogramming. The meetings affect everyone different, but their programming ways make the organization a cult, but that does not mean that every member is completely brainwashed and affected the same way. When I was in prison, I slept with my hands over my throat in order to not get my throat cut at night. I have been out over 44 years now, and still sleep with my hands over my throat. I was only in for a year. I was exposed to the 2x2 nonsense for 58 years.
I agree that there are some real positive things in the 2x2 system. I like the meetings in the home, and in areas where they really care for each other, I think they are more like a "family" as they should be. I still have good friends that go to meetings, and respect their stand. They are not happy with what goes on, and in one case the friend simply does not get involved and stays clear of all of the issues and just does what he believes God wants from him.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 19, 2013 14:49:48 GMT -5
I was thinking that it described the nation of Japan before WW II or China back in the days of Marco Polo. Well, interesting. My son told me one time (a young 20's at the time) that the F&W were communist. At 45 he still believes that! The early church was communist in the sense that they pooled the resources & distributed them as was needed.
The reason for that was it was soon after Jesus''s death & is easy to understand. They thought that Jesus was coming back soon- after all he stated that he would come back in their lifetime.
Believing that to be true, they felt no need to think ahead of the time when he would return.
They didn't see any reason to concern themselves about any needs that they might have later in their lives or their children's or grand-children's needs, because neither would be around!
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Post by faune on May 2, 2013 0:41:33 GMT -5
Sharon W shared...Intercessor ~ I might also add that many churches today have small group gatherings or cell groups connected to the church body who have Bible studies in their home during the week within their community. Our church has done that for a number of years and it definitely adds to the intimacy of being like a family gathering. Since I attend a mega church in our area, this is a great way of getting connected and making new friends in your area who share common beliefs. At this website, you can check out "Next Steps" to see what I mean by my posting as well as view a service in progress. www.lifepointchurch.org/smy
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Post by faune on May 2, 2013 0:46:05 GMT -5
The Truth has its good points and is not so good points. I believe children during the 1970s, 80s and before weren't given an option to explore their religious beliefs. Parents have put pressure on children to profess and stressed that they offer for the "harvest field". There is subtle and not so subtle pressure to profess and then conform to certain "standards". Yes it varies with the generation, family and field. I see why some love it and others hate it. It is what it is. If you enjoy it, by all means keep on going to the meetings. If you don't enjoy it, consider the possibility that you can be saved in another church or no church at all. I have met spiritual workers who spent time reading and praying. I have also met some who seemed interested in pressuring their friends to fit in and fill their place in the Kingdom. There is group pressure. And certain families have their own expected behaviors and norms. It is a very complicated thing. Strive to be happy and content. There is no reward in being a nervous, insecure, unhappy human being. Enjoy life to its fullest. As a California sister worker said, ENLARGE YOUR BOUNDARIES. I was taught that so called worldly Christians were evil, fake, hellbound etc.I found out that there are people just as good and maybe even better than a majority of professing saints. Good luck. The Truth is many things to many people. Walker1903 ~ I share you sentiment. I feel we both grew up in the same generation of professing friends from the 1960's to the 1980's. However, around the time I left the fold in April 1995, there was change on the horizon within the fellowship and the friends were beginning to "expanding their views" on a lot of things. I'm glad to see some improvement in this area, as it was needed for quite a long time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2013 17:57:35 GMT -5
A number of early overseers such as Howard Mooney, Tharold Sylvester, Andrew Abernethy, Charlie Hughes, Frank Tyson and company had too much power and influence. AS a matter of fact, they were GIVEN too much influence by uneducated professing saints in rural areas especially housewives and factory workers.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 19, 2013 18:16:04 GMT -5
Why don't we just apply the definition of "cult" to most groups, and then get on with life. "Well I'm proud to be an okie from Miskogee" Is this "Miskogee" even in Oklahoma? I've never seen it before just now.
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Post by faune on May 25, 2013 8:27:03 GMT -5
Why don't we just apply the definition of "cult" to most groups, and then get on with life. "Well I'm proud to be an okie from Miskogee" Is this "Miskogee" even in Oklahoma? I've never seen it before just now. Sharingtheriches ~ It seems to exists according to Google: www.cityofmuskogee.com
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 13, 2013 10:22:19 GMT -5
Is this "Miskogee" even in Oklahoma? I've never seen it before just now. Sharingtheriches ~ It seems to exists according to Google: www.cityofmuskogee.comFaune, tongue in cheek! I was razing the mispeller!
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Post by swarupa on Oct 23, 2013 14:59:25 GMT -5
Dennis that was the message we heard some 58 years ago, nice to hear it again. I don't think the workers of those years would feel good about what is going on now.
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Post by swarupa on Oct 23, 2013 15:20:11 GMT -5
and so that sums it thanks to all who contributed
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logain
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Post by logain on Oct 24, 2013 20:48:04 GMT -5
We were told that.... "A cult is easy to get into but hard to get out of".
Typical soundbite or phrase that even someone mildly retarded can remember and use.
As others mentioned the word "cult" is pretty much a loaded word. Once it starts being bandied about any hope of a rational discussion is lost.
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Post by faune on Oct 25, 2013 15:22:26 GMT -5
I tend to like this article which helps you identify a cult by using certain criteria as shown below. As to determining if the "shoe fits," I believe you need to honestly appraise how many of these areas below describe the fellowship of the F&W's and personally hits a nerve as you read the descriptions? Speaking for myself as an ex-member, a number of these areas struck a real nerve even now after leaving back in 1995 ~ 18 years later! Beginning with the section on "How they Do This" to the end, I could see a lot of similarities that I remember from my 30 years of professing which helped influenced my departure from the group. I realize some changes have come about within the fellowship since I left, but I truly wonder if the control that the workers have over the friends isn't still in place today by some of the posts I have read here in TMB? www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2013 1:28:31 GMT -5
I tend to like this article which helps you identify a cult by using certain criteria as shown below. As to determining if the "shoe fits," I believe you need to honestly appraise how many of these areas below describe the fellowship of the F&W's and personally hits a nerve as you read the descriptions? Speaking for myself as an ex-member, a number of these areas struck a real nerve even now after leaving back in 1995 ~ 18 years later! Beginning with the section on "How they Do This" to the end, I could see a lot of similarities that I remember from my 30 years of professing which helped influenced my departure from the group. I realize some changes have come about within the fellowship since I left, but I truly wonder if the control that the workers have over the friends isn't still in place today by some of the posts I have read here in TMB? www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult Good one, faune. As I go down the list, it's "check, check, check...". Does the person who wrote this happen to be an ex-truther, perchance?
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Post by stevnz on Oct 29, 2013 16:19:53 GMT -5
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