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Post by What Hat on Nov 1, 2011 17:08:50 GMT -5
My dear What ou seem to have a very narrow view of what defines an academic. An theology academic is not one who necessarily pursues academic research and work only but may also be involved as Legge is as an evangelist and Bible Teacher. I don't think David would class himself as an academic but he has ability as a writer. As for Martin he has four degrees with his doctorate from California Coast University. How that rates I would not have a clue. When you say your country which I understand to be the US men such as John Piper, a pastor in Bethlehem Minneapolis can stand alongside any college academic with his Th.D. from Munich and has written many books that are on the reading list of many British University theology faculties. Queens is a university and since you have been on their website I am sure you will have noted that they are an well established university, highly respected in many disciplines, especially medicine and engineering (as well as theology!) I can assure you that I am neither sponsored by or under the auspices of any religious organisation. I look upon my research as a labour of love! I didn't ask if you were sponsored by any religious organization. I asked if your college was. All I ask for is full disclosure. Which church college are you working at? I'm not making any value judgements about anything, but trying to see where you're coming from. (And people wonder why I fact check claims. )
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Post by Sylvestra on Nov 1, 2011 17:36:16 GMT -5
Good for her! It is Cherie's purpose not to inflame anyone and have the inflammation stand in their way of understanding what the 2x2's are all about! That is an appropriate approach for her purposes. 'Funny that, as much as you find fault with her, you would bring this up.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 1, 2011 17:44:37 GMT -5
My college is the Irish Baptist College affiliated to Queens but I am not sure what that is going to prove or change. I should add that I have two sons there, both undergraduates doing theology degrees.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2011 17:57:09 GMT -5
I guess the decision you will make to continue to use or discontinue using the term will help determine the respect and credibility any paper you may publish will have? [/color
Nothing like trying to twist his arm eh noels? Credibility or otherwise with whom?
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 1, 2011 17:57:32 GMT -5
What do you not think it time to drop the condescending and 'mightier than thou approach' that is so typical of those who may have something to hide as opposed to contribute.
Do you really think that since I started this research in 2008 that no one in the 2x2s before had checked by credentials and authenicity? I doubt that very much. I a small place like Ireland everyone know the score. You want to check the facts about me and now you have them will it persuade you to answer the question? Somehow I doubt it. But you could surprise us all by climbing down off your high horse and acting a little bit of grace.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2011 18:00:14 GMT -5
‘ By the term cult I mean nothing derogatory to any group so classified. A cult, as I define it. Is any religious group which differs significantly in some one or more respects as to belief or practice from those religious groups which are regarded as normative expressions of religion in our total culture. I may also add to this that a cult might also be defined as a group of people gathered about a specific person or person’s misinterpretation of the Bible.’
‘The term is more generally used by evangelicals of groups whose teachings are so heretical as to remain outside historic Christianity’.If you are adamant that you are going to use the word 'cult' then you need to precisely define your meaning of the word. The problem with the above is that 1) the first quote has a couple of different definitions in it. 2) I am also struggling to understand exactly what the second definition actually means! Though as a 2x2 I don't think too many people will expect me to say 'the teachings as so heretical' !! As far as the first statement i would go along with part of it , but that assumes my visualization of the words 'those religious groups which are regarded as normative expressions of religion in our total culture' and of the word 'significantly' is correct. Ooops ! I'm beginning to sound more like 'rational' !! Seriously, I think it is hard to help you here without a tight definition on what you mean as a 'cult'. Personally I don't think giving a choice of definitions helps at all. i agree with Bert that according to what's stated in various parts of Acts 24, what Paul was part of would be classed as a cult (according to the first part of the first definition you gave.)
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Post by rnstrbnsn on Nov 1, 2011 18:00:35 GMT -5
I did not write the “blah” you quoted, but it is good to see you add that to my words as it reflects your attitude towards having your stuff checked out and found greatly wanting in substance. So, now I see, we have a couple more TMB pages on which I find the same thing going on as is going on on this thread, round and round the mulberry bush with no particular results; On the first link I see; 1. the ‘protester’s unsupported (no evidence) typical 2x2-influenced bias against a book written by someone with a lifetime of experience and numerous years of research into the 2x2s. 2. The ‘protestor accuses, “To suggest group operates primarily in rural or low-income areas is flat out false.” And when the author asks for evidence of the claim, we see a cop-out as if his own charges need no supporting evidence, but the accused ‘must’ provide that evidence to prove his charges wrong; And then we see this GROSS exaggeration from the ‘protester’; “Yes most conventions are on farms because that's where the land is to hold a few thousand people over a 4 day period. It's a logical fallacy to connect convention locations, that require a large amount of space/area, to the efforts and outreach of the 2x2 ministry.” Strike two – I am impressed; we all know that workers started conventions on the properties of the first favorable responders to their messages – out in the rural areas. But just a little contemporary rewriting of 2x2 history might get believed by someone who was never a 2x2 member – right? Your second link points to a very small post that just provides the author’s name and email address – and nothing more that I could find of any substantial support for your attack on the article. So evidently you are just grinding your own aged axe in your attack on that article, which practice is supported by plenty of evidence I have seen in just the short time I have been on TMB. No wonder you avoid providing any evidence for your “vehement” claims along with those claims.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 1, 2011 18:03:37 GMT -5
Noels I met with TG and we both treated each other with respect and it was a useful exchange. You would not expect me to divulge the contents of our discussion but sufficient to say we will meet again. Of course I meet other workers in Ireland when I attend their missions and they are fully aware of why I am there.
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Post by rnstrbnsn on Nov 1, 2011 18:14:20 GMT -5
To put an end ot the speculation my first definition is Braden's cited in Walter Martin's, The Kingdom of the Cults, page 11. (The 2x2s are not mentioned!)The other is from The Concise Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, edited by Walter A Elwell. At this stage I neither agree nor will I defend David Legge's statement. I purely quoted it as an example of what has been published. I must reach my own conclusions based on the evidence and was hoping this thread might provide some. The difference is that Legge's conclusion appears in a book that he authors and I guess apart from the normal legal guidelines has no other accountability. I know David and I am fairly sure that he holds a Bachelor of Divinity from Queens. He is well regarded in Northern Ireland as an evangelist and Bible teacher. If I were to draw the same conclusion I would have to satisfy, my university supervisor, an internal examiner and an external examiner brought in from another university. You will understand that any view and conclusions reached in my thesis have got to be justified.From the outset I never made a secret of the fact that I am an evangelical Christian but there is no reason why this should conflict with my research. As Jesse has suggested, and he and I have exchanged pms before now, you may feel more comfortable passing your views to me on a pm or if you feel very daring you could email me: irivnegrey@yahoo.co.uk. I would certainly agree with your invitation that information be submitted to you privately because one thing is very clear on this thread long ago. The TMB definition police here will never allow you to speak English even when you define your words up front. So anyone who would submit the information you seek to you publicly would very likely have such submissions beaten to death by that same TMB definition police. Anyway, while I have enjoyed doing the tango with them as they have led it, there are more interesting things waiting such as pages more workers' words to get into computer files. And the crew here will chew on the same old same old seemingly forever with no positive outcomes save for THEIR desired outcome.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Nov 1, 2011 18:17:00 GMT -5
I did not write the “blah” you quoted, but it is good to see you add that to my words as it reflects your attitude towards having your stuff checked out and found greatly wanting in substance. No it reflects my attitude about you circumlocuting me with meaningless words. It seems Pastor Ken has deleted the link Cherie posted, maybe he was embarassed about it?
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Post by apple on Nov 1, 2011 18:17:52 GMT -5
The cult question is an inevitable one that Irvine will not be able to avoid. People get curious when they heard about a conservative religious group of people who keep largely to themselves and do not seem to have any churches or burial grounds. It's only natural that they will ask if the meetings is a cult, and as someone who is researching us Irvine will have to be able to come to some sort of conclusion on that. I think that it was considerate of Irvine to ask US this question and get our opinions on it.
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Post by sharonw on Nov 1, 2011 19:21:34 GMT -5
The traditional notion of a 'cult' and the one that both the CCM and Irvine Grey are referencing is basically this: any non-Trinitarian movement is a cult, because Trinitarian = normative. It's a definition that has provided good job security for the clergy, if you want to be cynical about it. There are clergy on both sides of the Trinitarian fence.
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Post by sharonw on Nov 1, 2011 19:37:09 GMT -5
I quickly went through the whole thread before replying. I then read the Wikipedia (WP) entries for cult and sect ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect). I understand the debate about the use of the term «cult». In fact WP clarifies the issue as follows: In the late 1980s, psychologists and sociologists started to abandon theories like brainwashing and mind-control. While scholars may believe that various less dramatic coercive psychological mechanisms could influence group members, they came to see conversion to new religious movements principally as an act of a rational choice.[13][14] Most sociologists and scholars of religion also began to reject the word "cult" altogether because of its negative connotations in mass culture. Some began to advocate the use of new terms like "new religious movement", "alternative religion" or "novel religion" to describe most of the groups that had come to be referred to as "cults",[15] yet none of these terms have had much success in popular culture or in the media. Other scholars have pushed to redeem the word as one fit for neutral academic discourse,[16] while researchers aligned with the Anti-cult movement have attempted to reduce the negative connotations being associated with all such groups by classifying only some as "destructive cults".I have been a (rather prominent) member of the 2x2 for several years (though never a worker) and I do believe that the 2x2's are a more or less non destructive cult (although some of the workers have certainly caused a lot of damage in CSA and other sexual type scandals). I also consider the 2x2s a sect, as they in fact are an organization that breaks away from a larger one to follow a different set of rules and principles. And because they consider themselves as very different and unique from the rest of the Christian denominations, although the historical usage of the term sect in Christendom has had pejorative connotations, I do believe that the term does apply to the 2x2s as they consider themselves a group or movement with heretical beliefs or practices that deviate from those of groups considered orthodox. More details available at request ... Thanks for that post, as it generates a little more light than heat on the subject. I'm personally quite comfortable with the term sect in a theological context. It doesn't come with all the baggage of the other term. Your post certainly establishes the importance of coming to terms in an academic inquiry on this subject. Some 2x2's would perhaps come up in arms over the "heretical" descriptions that relate to them!
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Post by sharonw on Nov 1, 2011 19:44:06 GMT -5
I did not write the “blah” you quoted, but it is good to see you add that to my words as it reflects your attitude towards having your stuff checked out and found greatly wanting in substance. No it reflects my attitude about you circumlocuting me with meaningless words. It seems Pastor Ken has deleted the link Cherie posted, maybe he was embarassed about it? Okay, you two! Come down off of your high horses and angst against one another....this whole thread has been strewn with one person or another up in the air about something. If you hate one another that bad...just push the furniture to the side, kick your boots off and have a go at it, okay! That's what my Gram would make us kids do when we argued until we were blue in the face and it generally works to settle a person right back done, eh?
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Nov 1, 2011 20:07:27 GMT -5
It's really funny how people have tried to turn this conversation into a theological discussion. That's just plain d-u-m-b.
Is an alternative version of Christianity a c-u-l-t? Is a gay person a f-a-g? Is a black person a n-i-g-g-e-r? All these questions are obvious and easy to answer. What's to argue about? Why has this gone on for 161 posts?
Thank God for other people who stoop to this level of language, so we tell-it-like-it-is types don't get lonely.
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Post by kiwi on Nov 2, 2011 3:13:39 GMT -5
Emerald, I agree. The meetings has an image of being a cult and the behaviour of some on this forum is adding to this image.Such people are showing themselves and the meetings in a poor light. (Of course, I believe that the meetings is a cult but I understand that others may not feel that way) Your apple is not very rosie either
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Post by What Hat on Nov 2, 2011 4:29:40 GMT -5
There are clergy on both sides of the Trinitarian fence. I was referring to the fact that over the aeons pro-Trinitarian clergy had access to most pocketbooks. Non-Trinitarians (or "cults") did not get equal time, were persecuted and suppressed, and if you followed your heart, you took your chances with a meal.
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Post by What Hat on Nov 2, 2011 4:48:43 GMT -5
After looking at Walter Martin's web site I am more concerned than I ever was. The press for Martin's book states "This book will continue as a crucial tool in countercult ministry and in evangelism for years to come".
I have serious concerns about research that would rely on Martin's definition of a cult.
Here is what one reviewer said on amazon:
And another review in favour:
Whatever you may think about JWs and Mormons, I don't like to see the word "cult" used to refer to them.
And another review against:
Sorry, my concerns with the research stand. I will further address my concerns about the way the term "cult" is used, in a general way, not specifically related to Grey's research with the Institute of Theology. But right now it sounds like they're running the Irish Baptist wing of the so-called Counter-Cult Ministry.
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Post by What Hat on Nov 2, 2011 4:50:49 GMT -5
The cult question is an inevitable one that Irvine will not be able to avoid. People get curious when they heard about a conservative religious group of people who keep largely to themselves and do not seem to have any churches or burial grounds. It's only natural that they will ask if the meetings is a cult, and as someone who is researching us Irvine will have to be able to come to some sort of conclusion on that. I think that it was considerate of Irvine to ask US this question and get our opinions on it. I don't think I'd want Irvine to answer for me based on what I've seen so far, but then it's not really my problem.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 2, 2011 6:16:12 GMT -5
IG Have you personally or have any of your family or relatives ever been members of the fellowship or are present members of the fellowship? As stated on my website, my maternal grandparents were 2x2s. I have many relatives who are also 2x2s and I grew up in County Fermanagh and was surrounded by 2x2s and many of these are friends of mine Am I allowed to enquire the reason why you have the interest you do in researching this particular fellowship? I have always been interested in the 2x2s modus operandi and that stretches back to my childhood when I attended meetings and convention with my grandmother. My father gave a field for the 2x2 workers (Hugh Breen and Nat Stevenson)to hold a mission in a portable hall on our farm in 1956. I have always felt that the lack of any written records as to its origins and theology need to be filled. Is TG aware that you use the term cult with relationship to the fellowship? I haven't yet used the word cult in relation to the fellowship. I have simple asked a question that some have got out of proportion. All I am doing is repeating a question I am frequently asked and trying to gather evidence to establish if it has substance. After all of this fuss I am sure not only TG knows but half the world as well! thanks! noels
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 2, 2011 6:41:18 GMT -5
Sorry, my concerns with the research stand. I will further address my concerns about the way the term "cult" is used, in a general way, not specifically related to Grey's research with the Institute of Theology. But right now it sounds like they're running the Irish Baptist wing of the so-called Counter-Cult Ministry. You really do throw the toys out of the pram and spit out your dummy when you don't get your own way. This is my research and your veiled threats will not change the final conclusion I reach so you may as well settle down instead of going apoplectic! Having read your posts over the past few days I get the impression that you are an overbearing bully who is used to getting your own way. That doesn't work with me of indeed most reasonably minded folk. My initial question asked for a rational response but so far all I have read from you is really over the top. I sincerely hope that you are not representative of the apologists for the 2x2 movement. You twist everything around. For example your reference to the Irish Baptist is typical of this. If you look at the Institute of Theology website you will note that the Irish Baptist College is one of a number of affiliated colleges. Unlike you I do not hide under a pseudonym so if you are as committed to openess and transparency as you would like to us think, why not reveal who you are and details of how you are qualified to be judge and jury?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Nov 2, 2011 7:51:07 GMT -5
Irvine, will say I'm impressed that you are actually meeting with friends and workers, and talking directly to them, that is something that's been severly lacking in most "research" up to this point. For example take this quote on the 2x2 wikipage; "but periodically the itinerants visit each district, and there they borrow a hall (often the Church hall of an unsuspecting minister) for a preaching meeting for the public at large." —Bryan R. Wilson" If Wilson had simply visited with a few real live friends and workers or went to a few gospel meetings he would have known how absolutely stupid that statements looks when compared to reality. Instead Wilson simply quoted Parker without verifying if what he quoted was true. This kind of carelessness in "research" gives a distinked flavor and spoils the "research" of all those who later quote it as if it is absolute and objective truth. So keep up the direct communication with real live friends and workers, if you have any more questions for me, ask. Thanks.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 2, 2011 8:10:58 GMT -5
Thanks for this Jesse. It looks as though I will have continue doing this on a one to one basis here in Ireland because there is not much useful information coming from this thread!
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Post by sharonw on Nov 2, 2011 8:52:04 GMT -5
Sorry, my concerns with the research stand. I will further address my concerns about the way the term "cult" is used, in a general way, not specifically related to Grey's research with the Institute of Theology. But right now it sounds like they're running the Irish Baptist wing of the so-called Counter-Cult Ministry. You really do throw the toys out of the pram and spit out your dummy when you don't get your own way. This is my research and your veiled threats will not change the final conclusion I reach so you may as well settle down instead of going apoplectic! Having read your posts over the past few days I get the impression that you are an overbearing bully who is used to getting your own way. That doesn't work with me of indeed most reasonably minded folk. My initial question asked for a rational response but so far all I have read from you is really over the top. I sincerely hope that you are not representative of the apologists for the 2x2 movement. You twist everything around. For example your reference to the Irish Baptist is typical of this. If you look at the Institute of Theology website you will note that the Irish Baptist College is one of a number of affiliated colleges. Unlike you I do not hide under a pseudonym so if you are as committed to openess and transparency as you would like to us think, why not reveal who you are and details of how you are qualified to be judge and jury? I''m sorry that What is being as he is about the word "cult" for it is totally out of character for him to be that way, and I assure that is the truth! Irvine Grey I'm hoping you can obtain all the real "truths" about the truth fellowship so that your research shows the real truth irregardless of even your own bias. I'm am not in the fellowship but I can understand What's objection to the use of the word "cult" for society-at-large has rendered that word something that it never was supposed to be. It is my understanding that when the word was fashioned it was used as something that meant "the beginning" of a new culture. And it is a shame that any English word bec omes an anathema at all, but dirty people do dirty deeds with words that render them unusable by those who are trying to live a good and clean life. But again , I assure you What is not a bully just having to have his way...the word just really bugs him and right now he is facing a real challenge to his spiritual self whether he knows it or not. He was pushed out of the fellowship because of HIS own convictions in regards to exclusivity in the fellowship, so maybe that will help you to cut him some slack! The first year or more out of the fellowship is a rough road to hoe for any of us...maybe you already know that. Thank you!
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Post by Lee on Nov 2, 2011 8:52:34 GMT -5
I believe the rigid filter imposed by workers for interpreting and believing on Jesus defines the f&w as a cult. In general, Christianity has left a greater range of decretion over beliefs to the individual. Whether one conceives oneself as a citizen or a subject of their religion, may be the best indicator of the merits of that religion.
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Post by sharonw on Nov 2, 2011 8:54:24 GMT -5
Irvine, will say I'm impressed that you are actually meeting with friends and workers, and talking directly to them, that is something that's been severly lacking in most "research" up to this point. For example take this quote on the 2x2 wikipage; " but periodically the itinerants visit each district, and there they borrow a hall (often the Church hall of an unsuspecting minister) for a preaching meeting for the public at large." —Bryan R. Wilson"If Wilson had simply visited with a few real live friends and workers or went to a few gospel meetings he would have known how absolutely stupid that statements looks when compared to reality. Instead Wilson simply quoted Parker without verifying if what he quoted was true. This kind of carelessness in "research" gives a distinked flavor and spoils the "research" of all those who later quote it as if it is absolute and objective truth. So keep up the direct communication with real live friends and workers, if you have any more questions for me, ask. Thanks. Jesse, you've taken the bolded up above out of its text and though you have done so to put a bad light on itl,..the bad light is impossible for it is the truth however bad you don't like it.
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Post by hallelujah on Nov 2, 2011 9:04:13 GMT -5
I believe the rigid filter imposed by workers for interpreting and believing on Jesus defines the f&w as a cult. In general, Christianity has left a greater range of decretion over beliefs to the individual. Whether one conceives oneself as a citizen or a subject of their religion, may be the best indicator of the merits of that religion. Most folks fail to understand that there Christianity is a result of what Constantine did..I know this must be very difficult for folks to see and understand..like it goes back way further then William Irvine like about 325 AD the council of Nicaea June 19th Constantine mixed pagan sun God worship in with the truth and this is what we in North America inherited
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Post by Lee on Nov 2, 2011 9:34:59 GMT -5
I believe the rigid filter imposed by workers for interpreting and believing on Jesus defines the f&w as a cult. In general, Christianity has left a greater range of decretion over beliefs to the individual. Whether one conceives oneself as a citizen or a subject of their religion, may be the best indicator of the merits of that religion. Most folks fail to understand that there Christianity is a result of what Constantine did..I know this must be very difficult for folks to see and understand..like it goes back way further then William Irvine like about 325 AD the council of Nicaea June 19th Constantine mixed pagan sun God worship in with the truth and this is what we in North America inheritedAh . ... so all of Christianity is a cult. Does any religion exist that you don't feel is a cult? Maybe all of mankind is in a cult . ... . that is we're all being cultivated per our exile from the Garden?
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