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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2012 14:49:01 GMT -5
God and Christianity is not a doctrine -- it is a spirit. Worship is not to a doctrine rather to a spirit and to truth.
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 11, 2012 14:40:59 GMT -5
[quote author=what board=general thread=18360 post=445142 time=1326120142
quot;.
The problem with doctrine has always been, as Irvine Grey inadvertently attested to above, a complete lack of respect or acceptance of the idea that there is value in other cultures and other belief systems. Hear the words of the missionary, "Jesus, begotten, not created, co-equal with God, is the only door; discard any other notion at the altar and submit to His Will, as I define it, I come in peace, please pay no attention to the swordsman slightly behind me and to my left". This does not speak to the Christ within, in my view.
[/quote]
What everyone has a doctrine of some sort. Whether they articulate it or not is another thing entirely. When you refer to me please do not attribute what you do not know. I accept that other faiths outside the Christian faith has many virtues and values and I have some very good friends who are Moslems and there are many aspects of their faith and lifestyle that I admire.
This does not prevent me from believing in the uniqueness of the triune God and that my only access to Him is through his son Jesus Christ
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 11, 2012 14:50:19 GMT -5
No I don't reject Jesus claim and do believe it. But I do reject the idea that non-believers of that statement are false in their beliefs. Any non-falsifiable doctrine sincerely presented and internally consistent is never false. This stance is incoherent. You cannot believe both of these to be true
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Post by What Hat on Jan 11, 2012 23:07:41 GMT -5
The problem with doctrine has always been, as Irvine Grey inadvertently attested to above, a complete lack of respect or acceptance of the idea that there is value in other cultures and other belief systems. Hear the words of the missionary, "Jesus, begotten, not created, co-equal with God, is the only door; discard any other notion at the altar and submit to His Will, as I define it, I come in peace, please pay no attention to the swordsman slightly behind me and to my left". This does not speak to the Christ within, in my view. What everyone has a doctrine of some sort. Whether they articulate it or not is another thing entirely. When you refer to me please do not attribute what you do not know. I accept that other faiths outside the Christian faith has many virtues and values and I have some very good friends who are Moslems and there are many aspects of their faith and lifestyle that I admire. This does not prevent me from believing in the uniqueness of the triune God and that my only access to Him is through his son Jesus Christ I was referring to your quote, "Here is an absolute and when someone tells you that they believe there are other ways to God other than through Jesus Christ you can not deem that as a false teaching?" The reference to this quote entirely parenthetical, and I didn't mean to infer that you were disrespectful in your personal attitude. I apologize for creating that impression. My intention was to indicate that this attitude, where it is found, is a consequence of too rigid a reliance on doctrine. It is true that everyone has a doctrine; including myself. But my concerns are with too great a certainty about doctrine, and too great a reliance on doctrine as a guide.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 11, 2012 23:18:02 GMT -5
No I don't reject Jesus claim and do believe it. But I do reject the idea that non-believers of that statement are false in their beliefs. Any non-falsifiable doctrine sincerely presented and internally consistent is never false. This stance is incoherent. You cannot believe both of these to be true It's apparently paradoxical; that is true. But the two statements I made are not part of the same system, and thus cannot be logically reduced. If someone has been raised as a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist I cannot say they are false, even though I have a certainty about my own beliefs. Their belief system is likely as true as my own; although even that is not ascertainable. When we tease out individual statements, then it's possible to make some kind of evaluation, although outside of the entire religious context many individual statements are meaningless. If it makes you feel any better I'm strongly suspicious of the idea of karma, just to cite an example.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 12, 2012 9:46:05 GMT -5
Perhaps another way of saying this is that when I meet my Maker all will be made clear; up to that point in time I'm just doing the best I can. Jesus is the Rock, but my own "doctrine", or any "doctrine", is just a bunch of sticks at best, sitting on the Rock as best it can. P.S. The Trinity doctrine is not to be found in my collection of sticks.
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 12, 2012 11:35:41 GMT -5
This stance is incoherent. You cannot believe both of these to be true It's apparently paradoxical; that is true. But the two statements I made are not part of the same system, and thus cannot be logically reduced. If someone has been raised as a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist I cannot say they are false, even though I have a certainty about my own beliefs. Their belief system is likely as true as my own; although even that is not ascertainable. When we tease out individual statements, then it's possible to make some kind of evaluation, although outside of the entire religious context many individual statements are meaningless. If it makes you feel any better I'm strongly suspicious of the idea of karma, just to cite an example. I suppose you would be uncomfortable singing the hymn, 'On Christ the solid Rock I stand. All other ground is sinking sand'.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2012 12:17:34 GMT -5
I agree with your line of reasoning what --- It is rather noteable how Jesus found joy and admired people that were completely outside the sphere of religious respect that even his followers (much less the high and holy Pharesees) could understand.
What joy it brought him!!
For instance the woman at the well from a completely different belief system .. with a home life culture remote from the Pharisees. Edgar
Joh 4:27-32 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her? [28] The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, [29] Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? [30] Then they went out of the city, and came unto him. [31] In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. [32] But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 12, 2012 13:50:53 GMT -5
It's apparently paradoxical; that is true. But the two statements I made are not part of the same system, and thus cannot be logically reduced. If someone has been raised as a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist I cannot say they are false, even though I have a certainty about my own beliefs. Their belief system is likely as true as my own; although even that is not ascertainable. When we tease out individual statements, then it's possible to make some kind of evaluation, although outside of the entire religious context many individual statements are meaningless. If it makes you feel any better I'm strongly suspicious of the idea of karma, just to cite an example. I suppose you would be uncomfortable singing the hymn, 'On Christ the solid Rock I stand. All other ground is sinking sand'. I'd be fine singing that. I don't define "other ground" as Muslim, Hindu or other belief systems. I would define "other ground" as immorality, depravity, Sin, hopelessness, hate ... you get the picture.
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 13, 2012 3:45:56 GMT -5
I suppose you would be uncomfortable singing the hymn, 'On Christ the solid Rock I stand. All other ground is sinking sand'. I'd be fine singing that. I don't define "other ground" as Muslim, Hindu or other belief systems. I would define "other ground" as immorality, depravity, Sin, hopelessness, hate ... you get the picture. How about adding unbelief?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2012 8:54:56 GMT -5
Defining what is outside Christian value is as meaningless as trying to define a well by describing what it's not.
What ever way you turn, you'll step on your tail!!!
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Post by What Hat on Jan 13, 2012 14:52:47 GMT -5
I'd be fine singing that. I don't define "other ground" as Muslim, Hindu or other belief systems. I would define "other ground" as immorality, depravity, Sin, hopelessness, hate ... you get the picture. How about adding unbelief? Belief and unbelief always exist simultaneously in a person. Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth. Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Notice how the father believed, and yet he needed help with his unbelief. And the object of that belief/ unbelief was not whether this or that doctrine might be true. The question was whether Christ could heal his epileptic or rabid or mad son. Many things are possible if we only believe. The centre-most part of my belief is that God is Love, and one day there will be a reconciliation with him, there will be no more sorrows, and He shall wipe away all the tears from our eyes. There's much else I do believe in accord with that belief, but I have increasing degrees of unbelief or doubt about many of them. I guess you could say that as life goes on there is much that I did believe that does not matter all that much, whether it is true or not. So, for things that don't matter anyway, I really don't need help with my 'unbelief'.
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Post by sharonw on Jan 13, 2012 15:02:51 GMT -5
What, I have always understood the cries of that father was that he was afraid though he believed Jesus could help his child, he was afraid that his faith was not strong enough for such a thing to really happen. I think we all come to that place sometimes where we question our own faith and how strong it is....one man said he thought to start just like the mustard seed, but then he said "I've never seen a mustard plant grow large enough for birds to roost in it" Now he questions his faith....he doesn't believe that a mustard seed could ever produce a plant large enough for birds to roost in it.
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 13, 2012 15:09:59 GMT -5
Perhaps another way of saying this is that when I meet my Maker all will be made clear; up to that point in time I'm just doing the best I can. Jesus is the Rock, but my own "doctrine", or any "doctrine", is just a bunch of sticks at best, sitting on the Rock as best it can. P.S. The Trinity doctrine is not to be found in my collection of sticks. Since the doctrine of the Trinity is a massive topic in itself I have started a thread on this subject.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 13, 2012 20:00:37 GMT -5
What, I have always understood the cries of that father was that he was afraid though he believed Jesus could help his child, he was afraid that his faith was not strong enough for such a thing to really happen. I agree. The guy understands his own faith plays a role. This is consistent with Mark, where Jesus cannot do miracles among the faithless.
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Post by Lee on Jan 13, 2012 21:53:39 GMT -5
The most unique aspect of the Jewish narrative is, here you have God calling a society to order by various civil and ceremonial laws and then at its end He lays an entirely new foundation, namely the authority of the holy spirit as He is revealed to individuals. Thus no other religious narrative defines the political dialectic between state and individual like Christianity. Any religion that does not keep this thought at its forefront is a cult by default, IMO.
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Post by StAnne on Jan 13, 2012 22:05:11 GMT -5
What, I have always understood the cries of that father was that he was afraid though he believed Jesus could help his child, he was afraid that his faith was not strong enough for such a thing to really happen. I agree. The guy understands his own faith plays a role. This is consistent with Mark, where Jesus cannot do miracles among the faithless. Does not, perhaps. Not cannot.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 14, 2012 0:15:54 GMT -5
What, I have always understood the cries of that father was that he was afraid though he believed Jesus could help his child, he was afraid that his faith was not strong enough for such a thing to really happen. I think we all come to that place sometimes where we question our own faith and how strong it is....one man said he thought to start just like the mustard seed, but then he said "I've never seen a mustard plant grow large enough for birds to roost in it" Now he questions his faith....he doesn't believe that a mustard seed could ever produce a plant large enough for birds to roost in it. Is that different from what I said?
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 18, 2012 15:27:10 GMT -5
Just as well that this thread has been quiet. Otherwise how would What and St Anne manage to post today with Wikipedia on a 24 hour shut down!
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Post by StAnne on Jan 18, 2012 15:36:22 GMT -5
Just as well that this thread has been quiet. Otherwise how would What and St Anne manage to post today with Wikipedia on a 24 hour shut down! hahaha! I use wiki some. Not that much really. And I always source. I am more the Haydock & Parallel Bible quoter. But. I did check on wiki - out of curiosity. What a tease. It looks like its going open. ... before it goes black ...
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 25, 2012 11:57:54 GMT -5
The much maligned Impartial Reporter is helping with my research. Details attached and can be opened with WORD. Attachments:
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Post by sharonw on Jan 25, 2012 12:03:21 GMT -5
What, I have always understood the cries of that father was that he was afraid though he believed Jesus could help his child, he was afraid that his faith was not strong enough for such a thing to really happen. I agree. The guy understands his own faith plays a role. This is consistent with Mark, where Jesus cannot do miracles among the faithless. But it is also surprising that the demons knew who Jesus was and THEY believed and I think THEY feared Jesus and that would have been because they knew His powers or abilities to get rid of them was very much from heaven.....
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Post by StAnne on Jan 25, 2012 13:09:51 GMT -5
The much maligned Impartial Reporter is helping with my research. Details attached and can be opened with WORD. Cool!!!! Congratulations!!
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 28, 2012 13:15:02 GMT -5
The much maligned Impartial Reporter is helping with my research. Details attached and can be opened with WORD. Cool!!!! Congratulations!! Thanks Anne and the next hurdle is complete the Queen's University, Belfast Master of Philosophy on the 2x2 movement! Roll on May 2012.
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Post by StAnne on Jan 29, 2012 13:57:15 GMT -5
Cool!!!! Congratulations!! Thanks Anne and the next hurdle is complete the Queen's University, Belfast Master of Philosophy on the 2x2 movement! Roll on May 2012. True, it's coming up quickly. You will accomplish it.
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eh?
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Post by eh? on Jan 31, 2012 21:56:30 GMT -5
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Post by irvinegrey on Feb 1, 2012 16:56:05 GMT -5
Eh thanks for drawing this thread to my attention. I was not aware of existence. The reason I started this thread with the question that I did was simply because this was the question I was being asked. Following the mixed response, sometimes hysterical, I am not sure how useful it was!
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Post by onceuponatime on Feb 1, 2012 20:13:43 GMT -5
I left not long ago, with no issues in particular against church at the time, none at all. But a few months down the track everything became clear - when all my friends, relatives etc within church turned against me, like as it they had never known me. I was disowned for the sake of religion, anything that puts a believe before family is a CULT - it meets all the definitions of a cult to a T.
Anyone who believes or contests otherwise, do the same as i did and you will find you come up with same answers, you will then logically find same conclusion
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