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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2012 12:44:33 GMT -5
by your own words written here, NOW I understand why you hold the views as truth to believe that you do. I personally take your words to mean by implication that I have made up lies regarding these precious pearls of mine. In trampling them you also identify yourself to me.
Now lest anyone else wonder if maybe this totally false "assumptive comparison" might be "true" I will say this. Brian knew in an instant I had seen a vision which I had not even yet recognized as such. By the way that vision unbelievable as it was to me then and even is shocking to me today is slowly becoming my reality.
Further, I said nothing told none, but my friend now deceased came to me later and told me HE knew I had received a vision at that moment, and wondered if I were willing to share it with him, which I did on an instant.
NOT ONE WORD FABRICATED or made up as the above post compares. The above post should also reveal the integrity of other posts made by that author.
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Post by rational on Jan 6, 2012 13:07:55 GMT -5
by your own words written here, NOW I understand why you hold the views as truth to believe that you do. I personally take your words to mean by implication that I have made up lies regarding these precious pearls of mine. In trampling them you also identify yourself to me. I don't believe you made up lies and never said you did. You stated what had happened to you and I related something it made me think of. If you say you believe that dogs speak French to each other when they are alone I would not think you were lying. If you presented it as a fact I would most likely request a little verification before I would share your belief. Each of us has a different belief system. Some people do not believe that men have walked on the moon and some think that trees have feelings. OK - you expressed what you believed. I was expressing my belief that the mind would have a difficult time determining whether a visual hallucination was real or created. That is why when people 'feel' and 'see' insects crawling on their skin, for example, it is next to impossible to convince them that there are no insects there. They believe, contrary to all reality, that there are insects. That is why it did not matter to the therapists I mentioned whether the patients were telling them dreams their minds had created while they were asleep or just creating 'dreams' while they were awake. They had the same source and that is what the doctor was interested in learning about. You stated that you believe you saw a vision. I do not doubt your belief. I simply think you are underestimating the ability of your mind.Let's see. Because I disagree with what you think was the source of what you believe you saw I somehow lack integrity?
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Post by slowtosee on Jan 6, 2012 14:24:15 GMT -5
I believe the Trinitarian doctrine is essential to salvation and I was reminded why I believe that while reading some of Kiwi's recent posts. Ditto - with some of jetmech's recent posts - 'What is God's name?' thread. For the record, I do believe in a triune God, but seriiously, are you guys saying people who do NOT believe "the trinitarian doctrine" are UNSAVED, which of course also means you can not fellowship with them and on and on....... I know we have been trained and taught VERY well to be exclusive in the 2x2 mindset, but surely, that's about as exclusive as we can get. LIke the guy said, I thought I had found one other christian in the world the other day and I was asking him ALL the questions, do you believe this and this and this and this, and WOW he answered all of them "correctly" I thought I had really really found one more, besides myself of course, saved person in the world and then I asked him one more question , do you believe ........... and sadly, he did not believe like I did and it sure is lonely being the ONLY person in the world with salvation..........~~~~~~~~~ Jesus came to save ME , but not you guys who do not believe or understand exactly like I do. Alvin
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Post by Happy Feet on Jan 6, 2012 14:34:35 GMT -5
I like the nature of the posts on this thread especially what's post 684 and Dennis' post 690. In my belief both are truth and from the heart. I'll add post 697 to that.
Although I believe in the trinity, I believe 'what's' post 684 is spot on. Although the churches basic doctrine is the trinity as with mainstream churches I guess there would be a large number of Christians within any church who do not understand, aspire to, or care if one believes in the trinity or not. I do not know how many of my peers do not believe in it. To me Jesus sacrifice on the Cross is the belief that units us, all other is doctrine. OK - it is more than doctrine to many, but we have been known to be wrong.
Dennis' post 690 is an extremely honest post which moved me. Great experience Dennis. Sometimes we have to be in the place of despair before these things do take place. Thanks for sharing. Even as a psychologist I believe these things to be true, having experienced them for myself.
I think that it is just a coincidence that the Muslim guy whose shoes were thrown into the water happened to be one who bombed the twin towers. It appears that it was just fun for some but probably not the Muslim guys.
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Post by sharonw on Jan 6, 2012 14:40:27 GMT -5
I like the nature of the posts on this thread especially what's post 864 and Dennis' post 690. In my belief both are truth and from the heart. I'll add post 697 to that. Although I believe in the trinity, I believe 'what's' post 64 is spot on. Although the churches basic doctrine is the trinity as with mainstream churches I guess there would be a large number of Christians within any church who do not understand, aspire to, or care if one believes in the trinity or not. I do not know how many of my peers do not believe in it. To me Jesus sacrifice on the Cross that is the belief we must aspire to, all other is doctrine. OK - it is more than doctrine to many, but we have been known to be wrong. Dennis' post 690 is an extremely honest post which moved me. Great experience Dennis. Sometimes we have to be in the place of despair before these things do take place. Thanks for sharing. I think that it is just a coincidence that the Muslim guy whose shoes were thrown into the water happened to be one who bombed the twin towers. It appears that it was just fun for some but probably not the Muslim guys. As I mentioned before about the US and other Countries that send workers to these foreign countries that are not so well off and those transplanted workers mistreating the native workers, I suppose there are almost always those who are going to belittle others they have no knowledge of, have NO desire to have that knowledge and think they've got the answer to all the world's problems, that should just be a lesson to all of us that the two commandments that Jesus stressed are very VITAL to life and that is loving the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength....and loving other humans as ourselves....I say "humans" simply because many do not consider those whom that are beneath them as brothers! For shame!
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Post by StAnne on Jan 6, 2012 15:03:33 GMT -5
he may have Mr. Irvine convinced by now that the term "cult" is a BATTLEGROUND word! Are you still talking about the original poster of this thread? That is a perfectly acceptable term of address in Sharon's geographical region (and mine).
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Post by StAnne on Jan 6, 2012 15:24:26 GMT -5
Ditto - with some of jetmech's recent posts - 'What is God's name?' thread. For the record, I do believe in a triune God, but seriiously, are you guys saying people who do NOT believe "the trinitarian doctrine" are UNSAVED, which of course also means you can not fellowship with them and on and on....... I know we have been trained and taught VERY well to be exclusive in the 2x2 mindset, but surely, that's about as exclusive as we can get. LIke the guy said, I thought I had found one other christian in the world the other day and I was asking him ALL the questions, do you believe this and this and this and this, and WOW he answered all of them "correctly" I thought I had really really found one more, besides myself of course, saved person in the world and then I asked him one more question , do you believe ........... and sadly, he did not believe like I did and it sure is lonely being the ONLY person in the world with salvation..........~~~~~~~~~ Jesus came to save ME , but not you guys who do not believe or understand exactly like I do. Alvin Absolutely not. We are all working out our salvation. I know and believe the Scripture that teaches that as we judge so will we be judged. jetmech and others here have been deprived of the correct teaching of who Jesus really is thru their participation in the 2x2 practice of faith. It is obvious in the quoted statement below for instance ... which makes one vulnerable to being open to an even more distorted teaching of who our Lord and Savior is, and the adoration that is due Him as Lord of Lords and King of kings. Before whom " every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth ... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord ..." I can see too the JW's don't believe in the trinity either, so discussing Jesus' name, to the JW, is not the same as discussing God's name. I'm not a JW; but, I don't believe in the trinity either, so that's why I got interested specifically in God's name. May jetmech come to know Jesus the Christ as Lord and Savior, God who took on human flesh, who came to earth and dwelt among us, died for our sins, and resurrected that we may have life eternal.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jan 6, 2012 15:47:22 GMT -5
You wouldn't be suggesting that jetmech does not know Jesus as Lord and Saviour would you simply based on whether he believes in the trinity or not?
Note it says that that every tongue confess that He is Lord - it does not say that every tongue confess that He is God.
There are 2 definitions of the Trinity anyway. It is my understanding that the catholics believe that Jesus and the father are one and the same. There are others of us who believe they are 3 separate beings but together make the one God. This is seen in what 'what' quoted in post 684 above.....
God exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God
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Post by StAnne on Jan 6, 2012 19:30:24 GMT -5
You wouldn't be suggesting that jetmech does not know Jesus as Lord and Saviour would you simply based on whether he believes in the trinity or not? Note it says that that every tongue confess that He is Lord - it does not say that every tongue confess that He is God. There are 2 definitions of the Trinity anyway. It is my understanding that the catholics believe that Jesus and the father are one and the same. There are others of us who believe they are 3 separate beings but together make the one God. This is seen in what 'what' quoted in post 684 above..... God exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God I am not suggesting anything. jetmech's statement says he does not recognize Jesus as God. " The Lord our God is one ... " If Jesus isn't God as the second person of the Holy Trinity then He isn't Lord. The Catholic Church formally defined the Holy Trinity at the Council of Nicea in 325, thus the Nicene Creed. Did you think it was the Baptists in the 1600s or so? The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85
254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 6, 2012 20:07:08 GMT -5
Not believing in the Trinity is like saying "I don't believe in the number three." I mean, go count them, man!
jetmech probably doesn't believe in the three stooges, either.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 6, 2012 20:18:18 GMT -5
You wouldn't be suggesting that jetmech does not know Jesus as Lord and Saviour would you simply based on whether he believes in the trinity or not? Note it says that that every tongue confess that He is Lord - it does not say that every tongue confess that He is God. There are 2 definitions of the Trinity anyway. It is my understanding that the catholics believe that Jesus and the father are one and the same. There are others of us who believe they are 3 separate beings but together make the one God. This is seen in what 'what' quoted in post 684 above..... God exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God Still waiting for that example of "going ballistic", believer. Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to understand more fully what it is I'm supposed to "own".
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Post by What Hat on Jan 6, 2012 20:19:26 GMT -5
Not believing in the Trinity is like saying "I don't believe in the number three." I mean, go count them, man! jetmech probably doesn't believe in the three stooges, either. Well, it took Aquinas several hundred pages to explain it all, and I've read most of them.
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Post by StAnne on Jan 6, 2012 20:29:48 GMT -5
You wouldn't be suggesting that jetmech does not know Jesus as Lord and Saviour would you simply based on whether he believes in the trinity or not? Note it says that that every tongue confess that He is Lord - it does not say that every tongue confess that He is God. There are 2 definitions of the Trinity anyway. It is my understanding that the catholics believe that Jesus and the father are one and the same. There are others of us who believe they are 3 separate beings but together make the one God. This is seen in what 'what' quoted in post 684 above..... God exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God Still waiting for that example of "going ballistic", believer. Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to understand more fully what it is I'm supposed to "own". Gosh, what. I didn't know you'd come back around. Quit holding secrets.
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Post by Lee on Jan 6, 2012 21:11:19 GMT -5
I understood right after the 9/11 horrors, that those Muslim men had been sent here specifically to "train" and "learn" what they had to in order to do what they did....so I wouldn't say that that little episode of childish pranks CAUSED the terror but certainly would not have done anything to change those young Muslims' minds about America either.....It just shows that we can never be too careful how we use or abuse another...IF we show acceptance of them as a person and love them as a person, knowing that God loved them first, then there will be perhaps a small percentage who will turn away from such avenues of destruction. I know that at the time of 9/11 or just before that, I had had to go to Iowa State University Hospital to have a rare optic nerve tumor taken care of...when I first went there, there were Muslim doctors all over the place and then AFTER 9/11 they weren't there anymore...of course some had finished their residency in the Opthalmic fields of expertise and had gone home or elsewhere but one has to wonder how many of them were encouraged to return to home for awhile? Then about 2 years later I moved back to my home state and had that particular health issue care transferred to the state university opthalmology department and lo and behold again I see a lot of Muslim drs. and a considerable number of nurses that were of Muslim descent! Perhaps those Muslims at the Iowa university just were moved to different parts of the US...kind of a safety dispersal since anti-Muslim emotions were the flavor of that day. The incident with the shoes happened some years before Al Qaeda sent 20 or so young men into America with a specific mission to crash planes in to key targets. The mastermind of that mission was the young man who had had his shoes thrown into the water while a student in America. A number of those young men, especially the pilots, had had previous highly negative experiences in Western society; it was that experience as much as Muslim indoctrination that motivated them. Atta, the key operative, came from a well-to-do Egyptian family whose animus against the West was moulded while he went to school to study Engineering in Hamburg, Germany. When someone becomes self-destructive over an abuse or an offense we call it a tragedy. When we spend an inordinate amount of time and attention to potential or de facto victims, we call it victimization. When someone takes offense at having his shoes thrown into water and/or being heckled over his beliefs upon meeting those who possess other beliefs and proceeds to arbitrarily sacrifice 3000 souls to his god, what do we call it if it's not murder? Multiculturalism, as it defined by polytheism is the de facto basis of racism.
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Post by Lee on Jan 6, 2012 21:18:55 GMT -5
Ditto - with some of jetmech's recent posts - 'What is God's name?' thread. For the record, I do believe in a triune God, but seriiously, are you guys saying people who do NOT believe "the trinitarian doctrine" are UNSAVED, which of course also means you can not fellowship with them and on and on....... Yes, I do believe those who do not believe in the Trinitarian doctrine are saved. But first, you must realize that I conceive salvation as the ability to sit down to the table of philosophy and eat. A distant second would be the potential to be resurrected, by now a working assumption I have towards all.
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Post by sharonw on Jan 6, 2012 21:21:47 GMT -5
You wouldn't be suggesting that jetmech does not know Jesus as Lord and Saviour would you simply based on whether he believes in the trinity or not? Note it says that that every tongue confess that He is Lord - it does not say that every tongue confess that He is God. There are 2 definitions of the Trinity anyway. It is my understanding that the catholics believe that Jesus and the father are one and the same. There are others of us who believe they are 3 separate beings but together make the one God. This is seen in what 'what' quoted in post 684 above..... God exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God Awww, Happy Feet! Every one that calls Jesus "Lord" is actually knowledgeable about HOW He came to be "Lord"...same as those who call Him "Lord of Lords", "King of Kings, "Priest of Priests" and "Prince of Princes"...they are declaring His Holy Divinity for only a Divine "Lord" may be called that in all sincerity and truth...this all comes down to how we can fully understand how to "worship Him in spirit and in truth"...the "truth" of the matter is this and it is plainly stated in John 1. The Word was in the beginning. And the Word was with God and the Word was God...... Verses on down...says The Word came down, took flesh upon Him and dwelt among us. Can anyone begin to gain the notion that the bridegroom's best friend is trying to tell people? Yes, Jesus as the Word came down and went through the incarnation and became a human baby in Mary's womb though Mary's endowment of the Holy Spirit..etc. That babe was born as the Hope of all nations...otherwords the creator came to redeem His creation! Only could the creator redeems us...no one else has the divine right plus no one is sin free!
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Post by Happy Feet on Jan 6, 2012 21:41:49 GMT -5
Still waiting for that example of "going ballistic", believer. Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to understand more fully what it is I'm supposed to "own". Your forgiven 'what'!! Your post at 684 on the salvation thread put you in good stead. If I was the mod I would make it post of the week.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jan 6, 2012 21:51:40 GMT -5
The Catholic Church formally defined the Holy Trinity at the Council of Nicea in 325, thus the Nicene Creed. Did you think it was the Baptists in the 1600s or so? The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85
254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune. Sounds good to me!! Thanks for keeping us protestants on the straight and narrow. I do know the Catholic doctrine incoropates/started/whatever/ the trinity, but there are 2 definitions of trinity floating around. Some do believe that the trinity is 3 in one being, but it seems like the Catholics do not. i.e that the Father and Son are the same, rather than 3 separate beings/parts making up the One God. Have I got it right, the Catholics believe the later? Lee, I sometimes think I need to do that PhD to understand what you write, as it is sometimes above my level of intelligence but the 90% I do understand is good.
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Post by sharonw on Jan 6, 2012 21:57:54 GMT -5
Perhaps those who believe that the trinity is the 3 in 1 God that is the same as it is declared here by myself or Stanne...we believe that the Trinity is 3 persons in 1 God. Though I don't believe that God the Father would get picky about people thinking that He is His own Son because He knows that Jesus is the express image of Himself....so no problem there...He also knows that the pain He felt when Jesus was crucified was just as bad as it was for Jesus...His heart is ever tender towards His holy Son.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jan 6, 2012 22:13:08 GMT -5
I always had trouble with the notion that some subscribe to, which is the example that the Trinity/God is like water, it can be steam, liquid or ice - I think it is. One thing in 3 forms.
I prefer to see God as like the surname comprising of Father, Son and Spirit. Even that is not a good example. I would appreciate a better one.
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Post by Gene on Jan 6, 2012 22:14:25 GMT -5
What, IMO, the question posted as the title of this thread is ESPECIALLY relevant given the volatile nature of the word 'cult.'
The scholar could make the case that those who believe it is a cult are applying the present-day meaning of the word -- and then compare the facts about the group against the 'cult' perception. I think the conclusion that you're leaping to is that Mr. Irvine will not apply the facts of the group to the, in some minds, 'cult' perception of the group. But how can you know that? You've requested that he divulge his own opinion/insights on the question he posed... but why should he do so in advance of publishing his paper? To do so would only serve to pollute his research.
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Post by StAnne on Jan 6, 2012 22:58:52 GMT -5
The Catholic Church formally defined the Holy Trinity at the Council of Nicea in 325, thus the Nicene Creed. Did you think it was the Baptists in the 1600s or so? The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85
254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune. Sounds good to me!! Thanks for keeping us protestants on the straight and narrow. I do know the Catholic doctrine incoropates/started/whatever/ the trinity, but there are 2 definitions of trinity floating around. Some do believe that the trinity is 3 in one being, but it seems like the Catholics do not. i.e that the Father and Son are the same, rather than 3 separate beings/parts making up the One God. Have I got it right, the Catholics believe the later? Lee, I sometimes think I need to do that PhD to understand what you write, as it is sometimes above my level of intelligence but the 90% I do understand is good. Formally defined is what you're looking for. Believed by and handed on by the Apostles and their validly ordained successors. Formally defined by the Church in 325. We have a Oneness Pentecostal who posts here sometimes - (Illinois Gal?). I had never heard of such a thing. Have now. Yes. Three distinct persons, one in being. Three distinct persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit = One God. One Lord.
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Post by StAnne on Jan 6, 2012 23:14:07 GMT -5
I always had trouble with the notion that some subscribe to, which is the example that the Trinity/God is like water, it can be steam, liquid or ice - I think it is. One thing in 3 forms. I prefer to see God as like the surname comprising of Father, Son and Spirit. Even that is not a good example. I would appreciate a better one. The steam, liquid, ice illustrate that each is distinct, yet each of the same substance. ( No - it isn't a good analogy - but it does seem to help some people. ) The Godhead is a term sometimes used. We do not have to understand everything about it with our finite mind. As you believe in faith, a greater understanding of the Holy Trinity will be given you.
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Post by slowtosee on Jan 6, 2012 23:23:49 GMT -5
The Godhead is a term sometimes used.- anne said
Sure do love this verse, saying what you mentioned, St. Anne.
For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Collosian 2:9
- nothing to add or take away Alvin
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Post by Happy Feet on Jan 6, 2012 23:47:14 GMT -5
I always had trouble with the notion that some subscribe to, which is the example that the Trinity/God is like water, it can be steam, liquid or ice - I think it is. One thing in 3 forms. I prefer to see God as like the surname comprising of Father, Son and Spirit. Even that is not a good example. I would appreciate a better one. The steam, liquid, ice illustrate that each is distinct, yet each of the same substance. ( No - it isn't a good analogy - but it does seem to help some people. ) The Godhead is a term sometimes used. We do not have to understand everything about it with our finite mind. As you believe in faith, a greater understanding of the Holy Trinity will be given you. I believe I do have a good understanding of the Trinity, but I don't have a simple illustration to use for people to explain it. The water one is the only one I have heard. I like the Godhead verse, but from what I remember, some people say that some translations do not have that, and that it was added after.
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Post by emy on Jan 7, 2012 0:34:16 GMT -5
I always had trouble with the notion that some subscribe to, which is the example that the Trinity/God is like water, it can be steam, liquid or ice - I think it is. One thing in 3 forms. I prefer to see God as like the surname comprising of Father, Son and Spirit. Even that is not a good example. I would appreciate a better one. I don't think this is what you are looking for but how about Father and Son united perfectly by Spirit?
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Post by StAnne on Jan 7, 2012 1:44:46 GMT -5
I like the Godhead verse, but from what I remember, some people say that some translations do not have that, and that it was added after. The term Trinity isn't in the Bible. The concept certainly is. The concept of the Godhead certainly is too. However, there are a good many translations that do use 'Godhead' including some of the KJVs. bible.cc/colossians/2-9.htm
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 7, 2012 3:08:59 GMT -5
What, IMO, the question posted as the title of this thread is ESPECIALLY relevant given the volatile nature of the word 'cult.' The scholar could make the case that those who believe it is a cult are applying the present-day meaning of the word -- and then compare the facts about the group against the 'cult' perception. I think the conclusion that you're leaping to is that Mr. Irvine will not apply the facts of the group to the, in some minds, 'cult' perception of the group. But how can you know that? You've requested that he divulge his own opinion/insights on the question he posed... but why should he do so in advance of publishing his paper? To do so would only serve to pollute his research. Thanks for this helpful comment Gene. The last two sentences reflects my thinking.
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