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Post by MandyMoore on Sept 25, 2007 16:09:56 GMT -5
One of the Minnesota staff said to a small group of people at Hector," I am just thankful people came". " I didn't think anyone would think much of the workers anymore."
When I heard this, my heard ached for the co-workers of Tim. I would imagine it is hard to accept something like this, and it is even harder to be able to read the kinds of things posted on this site. I was secretly hoping that when this site when down, that it was going down for good. It probably has hurt many people.
I may be on the sidelines of truth, but I have no ill will towards the friends or workers. Let's make this a more positive board going forward!
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Post by juliette on Sept 25, 2007 16:21:57 GMT -5
One of the Minnesota staff said to a small group of people at Hector," I am just thankful people came". " I didn't think anyone would think much of the workers anymore." When I heard this, my heard ached for the co-workers of Tim. I would imagine it is hard to accept something like this, and it is even harder to be able to read the kinds of things posted on this site. I was secretly hoping that when this site when down, that it was going down for good. It probably has hurt many people. I may be on the sidelines of truth, but I have no ill will towards the friends or workers. Let's make this a more positive board going forward! Really?! Ignoring unpleasant things doesn't make them go away. Dealing with things in the open is the only way to move past them. I can't tell you how many stories I've heard from people lately who have been irrevocably hurt by people's desires to push unpleasant things under the rug.
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Sept 25, 2007 17:15:48 GMT -5
One of the Minnesota staff said to a small group of people at Hector," I am just thankful people came". " I didn't think anyone would think much of the workers anymore." When I heard this, my heard ached for the co-workers of Tim. I would imagine it is hard to accept something like this, and it is even harder to be able to read the kinds of things posted on this site. I was secretly hoping that when this site when down, that it was going down for good. It probably has hurt many people. I may be on the sidelines of truth, but I have no ill will towards the friends or workers. Let's make this a more positive board going forward! We cannot protect the workers and friends at the expense of the children!!!!
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Post by mortified on Sept 25, 2007 19:12:35 GMT -5
It is the children that we should be focusing on not the "hurt" friends and workers. Think about the "hurt" of all the children that have been molested. Some are adults now and have never gotten over it.
I am not so sure that all of it is "hurt" anyway but maybe like clearday said in another post. Maybe it is a real blow to their pride of this being the perfect way with God's only true servants committing the crimes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2007 21:31:19 GMT -5
One of the Minnesota staff said to a small group of people at Hector," I am just thankful people came". " I didn't think anyone would think much of the workers anymore." When I heard this, my heard ached for the co-workers of Tim. I would imagine it is hard to accept something like this, and it is even harder to be able to read the kinds of things posted on this site. I was secretly hoping that when this site when down, that it was going down for good. It probably has hurt many people. I may be on the sidelines of truth, but I have no ill will towards the friends or workers. Let's make this a more positive board going forward! This is an interesting quote from the worker who said that. It provides a glimpse into the thought process of the workers and provides some evidence for what drives the traditional practice of covering up evil. Workers are afraid that if people learn the truth about them, they will stop coming to meetings. What a terrible bondage for the workers to be in as it tempts them to practice deception. Anyone who truly loves the truth is well capable of handling whatever it is, good or bad. It is only those who love deception who will have a hard time with the truth such as finding out that a worker is a child molester. If workers only knew that they are coddling those who love to be deceived, and driving out those who love the truth when they cover up reality. My circle of friends in the church are unanimous in experiencing an increase in respect for the workers after the way Lyle handled things. But then, I don't hang out much with friends who don't like the truth.....
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Post by linesinthesand on Oct 22, 2007 7:39:13 GMT -5
If we all just focus on what we are doing rather than others to make our lives and others lives better with compassion and thoughtfulness rather than anger and bitterness towards workers and friends.
A few people are guilty of crimes but that dosent mean all people are guilty of crimes.
Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
No one should let the actions of a few effect what is in their heart towards God.
Its bigger than just us, Look to God, for he is what we want to draw near to, not the past and conflict thats just what Satan wants us to do is dwell on nothing so we forget God who is everything.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2007 8:52:31 GMT -5
It's not just a few unfortunately. When we know of a crime and actively cover it up, we become complicit in the crime. You are attempting to make this into a small matter, and it isn't, it's very big. It seems you have little care and compassion for vulnerable children who are under the care of unsuspecting parents in favour of "mind your own business". This thread is not about being against workers and friends. It's about being for children, who at this very moment are at risk. If we all just focus on what we are doing rather than others to make our lives and others lives better with compassion and thoughtfulness rather than anger and bitterness towards workers and friends. A few people are guilty of crimes but that dosent mean all people are guilty of crimes. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. No one should let the actions of a few effect what is in their heart towards God. Its bigger than just us, Look to God, for he is what we want to draw near to, not the past and conflict thats just what Satan wants us to do is dwell on nothing so we forget God who is everything.
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Post by mortified on Oct 22, 2007 11:13:49 GMT -5
If we all just focus on what we are doing rather than others to make our lives and others lives better with compassion and thoughtfulness rather than anger and bitterness towards workers and friends. A few people are guilty of crimes but that dosent mean all people are guilty of crimes. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. No one should let the actions of a few effect what is in their heart towards God. Its bigger than just us, Look to God, for he is what we want to draw near to, not the past and conflict thats just what Satan wants us to do is dwell on nothing so we forget God who is everything. headinthe sand--You have made a serious mistake in judgement. This is not "nothing"--This is sexual abuse of children. Now maybe that doesn't matter to you but to some of us here it matters a whole lot. Do you really think Jesus if he was present would actually turn his head and walk away without addressing the issue? Do you believe that Jesus would suggest that everyone just mind their own business when they were aware that children were being molested?
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Post by Brick on Oct 22, 2007 13:04:33 GMT -5
If we all just focus on what we are doing rather than others to make our lives and others lives better with compassion and thoughtfulness rather than anger and bitterness towards workers and friends. I agree. And I think the rest of you should just back off and leave poor little linesinthesand alone. I mean, you really have to ask yourself, "What would Jesus do?", donchya? As far as that goes, what eck-zack-a-tically DID Jesus do? Well, he didn't pull any punches with his buddy, Simon the pharisee. "Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee." Then he told him straight up like it was. He told his disciples to "love one another as I have loved you." Was it a hands off, kind of love that-I-just-feel-in-my-heart? No siree bob-tail. It was a touching and healing the sick, making straight the crooked, not afraid to offend in the name of righteousness kind of love. Is that "focus(ing) on what we are doing rather than others"? Yeah. The importance is what are we doing for others? Standing by and witnessing their abuse? Or standing up for what is right? Sometimes ya just gotta leap from the safety and security of the deck of your own ship and get in the fray. Think about what is at stake.
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Post by rational on Oct 22, 2007 15:12:38 GMT -5
headinthe sand--You have made a serious mistake in judgement. This is not "nothing"--This is sexual abuse of children. Do you really want to stop the sexual abuse of children? Then educate parents into protecting their children. Instead of pointing fingers and talking about the past and what has already happen, take the criminals to the authorities. The way to stop those who are abusing children is to remove the children from their reaches and have them dealt with as criminals. Pointing fingers on a public message board will not accomplish what you want to do. Standing and beating your breast crying out that you care will not get the children out of the reach of the criminals. Do you really think you know the mind of God? Remember, God knows the children were being abused. It does appear that he walked right by. No, I think he would want the criminals punished by the authorities and not gossiped about on a message board. If you know children are being molested - report it. Every state has a form. Fill it out. Send it in. DFPS/CPS/MDHR/DSHS/DSS or whatever it is known as in the state involved by law has to follow up on your filing. That will stop the abuse.
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Post by mortified on Oct 22, 2007 17:29:11 GMT -5
rational
I totally agree with reporting to the authorities. It is the ONLY way that this will be stopped. However, we can't just turn our heads and mind our own business. Like Brick states, sometimes you have to come out and take a stand and do what is right. It worries me when someone posts that we need to mind our own business and that post does not include anything about reporting the incident to the proper authorites. The post states that we should just let it go. This is why child molesters get away with it so much of the time.
Please remember that more often than not people similiar to linesinthesand either have children or grandchildren of their own or know know children that may in danger. Again we go to the fact that there are many professing parents that could NEVER think that their children might be molested by a worker. These parents need to hear facts so they may understand the danger. Someone "gossiping" here about the facts may keep a child from being left in a worker's company without any supervision.
I don't pretend to understand God's mind or understand the master plan. I know only what I know through the scripture that God wrote for us.
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Post by ooT on Oct 22, 2007 18:17:07 GMT -5
<< These parents need to hear facts so they may understand the danger. Someone "gossiping" here about the facts may keep a child from being left in a worker's company without any supervision. >>The facts are that children are more often abused by family members than by clergy of any denomination. So I hope that parents will also understand the danger of leaving a child alone with, say, a grandparent, uncle, nephew, cousin.
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Post by mortified on Oct 22, 2007 19:00:06 GMT -5
That is true. However, these same parents that recognize the danger of family members would never suspect that it could happen with a worker.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2007 22:21:03 GMT -5
Risks are high. Historical data indicate that as many as 1 in 25 Catholic priests had abuse accusations registered against them, and scholars tell us that not all abuse gets reported.
If 1 in 25 male workers are abusers or potential abusers, the risks for young children are huge, much bigger than in the RCC. After all, workers live right in homes with children.
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Post by linesinthesand on Oct 23, 2007 1:46:54 GMT -5
Do you really want to stop the sexual abuse of children? Then educate parents into protecting their children. Instead of pointing fingers and talking about the past and what has already happen, take the criminals to the authorities. The way to stop those who are abusing children is to remove the children from their reaches and have them dealt with as criminals. Pointing fingers on a public message board will not accomplish what you want to do. Standing and beating your breast crying out that you care will not get the children out of the reach of the criminals. Do you really think you know the mind of God? Remember, God knows the children were being abused. It does appear that he walked right by. No, I think he would want the criminals punished by the authorities and not gossiped about on a message board. If you know children are being molested - report it. Every state has a form. Fill it out. Send it in. That will stop the abuse. Thank you Rational, that was put better than I could do. Not much of a wordsmith myself obviously... Some people at the end of the day just dont want to be educated. I was one of the people who was "felt up" by one who lost when I kicked up a fuss. Whether or not it was a worker, dosent mean anything, its just some people try their luck with their twisted minds and think that everything is just fine. If you know something is wrong, you do something about it and educate your family on what is happening. But once that is over and dealt with, YOU STOP. You don't go on and on. You give it a break, because if you keep on kicking a dead horse, it dose'nt get up and take more punishment. Next, you get to the point where you are no longer angry and annoyed and wanting revenge or whatever it is that you need to get over it, theres a stage called "moving on". If you cant move on, then its not my or anyone else's fault, you must make a move on what tomorrow is going to be. Is tomorrow going to be more of the same? Workers and Children, workers and children, lets discuss it on the web, workers and children, until we are satisfied that theres nothing new under the sun? What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun. 10 Is there a thing of which it is said, "See, this is new"? It has already been, in the ages before us. 11 The people of long ago are not remembered, nor will there be any remembrance of people yet to come by those who come after them. or a new tommorow with a new start called Education and Awareness? Call me "headinsand" or whatever you want; I'm no stranger to critisim, but I do know how to move on, because tomorrow's coming and i wont spend it mourning over the past for long because the past is no more, it is nothing but a lesson for the future.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 8:05:01 GMT -5
So you were "felt up", you brushed it off, moved on and can't understand why everyone can't be just like you. I was once like that myself. Having had a couple of futile molestation attempts toward me as a child, I escaped, brushed it off and scoffed at those who didn't because I couldn't imagine anyone being different than me. The truth is that some people get sucked deeply into the maelstrom of abuse. It affects them deeply, it changes their lives, and in many cases, ruins their lives. It was only when I began to realize that not everyone is like me (or you) who was able to large escape it and brush it off that I began to understand the horror of child sexual abuse. It's easy to say get over it, move on, let the parents fix this. I suggest that you try to learn more about the devastating effects of child molestation and not just the ruin it does to the victims, but the misery it creates for many people around the victim. In the meantime, you would like to have the molesters continue to freely ply their sick trade and blame their success on bad parenting. It sounds like you have indeed moved on. Do you really want to stop the sexual abuse of children? Then educate parents into protecting their children. Instead of pointing fingers and talking about the past and what has already happen, take the criminals to the authorities. The way to stop those who are abusing children is to remove the children from their reaches and have them dealt with as criminals. Pointing fingers on a public message board will not accomplish what you want to do. Standing and beating your breast crying out that you care will not get the children out of the reach of the criminals. Do you really think you know the mind of God? Remember, God knows the children were being abused. It does appear that he walked right by. No, I think he would want the criminals punished by the authorities and not gossiped about on a message board. If you know children are being molested - report it. Every state has a form. Fill it out. Send it in. That will stop the abuse. Thank you Rational, that was put better than I could do. Not much of a wordsmith myself obviously... Some people at the end of the day just dont want to be educated. I was one of the people who was "felt up" by one who lost when I kicked up a fuss. Whether or not it was a worker, dosent mean anything, its just some people try their luck with their twisted minds and think that everything is just fine. If you know something is wrong, you do something about it and educate your family on what is happening. But once that is over and dealt with, YOU STOP. You don't go on and on. You give it a break, because if you keep on kicking a dead horse, it dose'nt get up and take more punishment. Next, you get to the point where you are no longer angry and annoyed and wanting revenge or whatever it is that you need to get over it, theres a stage called "moving on". If you cant move on, then its not my or anyone else's fault, you must make a move on what tomorrow is going to be. Is tomorrow going to be more of the same? Workers and Children, workers and children, lets discuss it on the web, workers and children, until we are satisfied that theres nothing new under the sun? What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun. 10 Is there a thing of which it is said, "See, this is new"? It has already been, in the ages before us. 11 The people of long ago are not remembered, nor will there be any remembrance of people yet to come by those who come after them. or a new tommorow with a new start called Education and Awareness? Call me "headinsand" or whatever you want; I'm no stranger to critisim, but I do know how to move on, because tomorrow's coming and i wont spend it mourning over the past for long because the past is no more, it is nothing but a lesson for the future.
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Post by mortified on Oct 23, 2007 8:49:23 GMT -5
Thanks once again clearday for not allowing the facts to be covered up in order to protect the workers. You are correct. The results of sexual molestation can be horrific and last a lifetime.
Again when we told our professing son about this, his first reaction was "I don't want to hear this"--He walked away. He has small children and workers are in their home on a regular basis. As hard as it is for some parents it is necessary to make sure that this is told as much as possible.
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Post by FREE2BEME on Oct 23, 2007 17:05:44 GMT -5
[
" But once that is over and dealt with, YOU STOP. You don't go on and on. You give it a break, because if you keep on kicking a dead horse, it dose'nt get up and take more punishment.
Next, you get to the point where you are no longer angry and annoyed and wanting revenge or whatever it is that you need to get over it, theres a stage called "moving on".
If you cant move on, then its not my or anyone else's fault, you must make a move on what tomorrow is going to be."
IMO linesinthesand in the above quotes does make some valid points..I believe that in some experiences of life it can and should be done..I know that in some of the dark/difficult experiences that I have been thru that if I hadn't "moved"on I wouldn't have "gotten" as far as I have.(does that make sense?)But on the other hand...some experiences are so traumatic/horrific that they leave a lasting impression on us.. feelings perhaps that are just under the surface or in our hearts that we can't ever really escape from....~~Thank God I have never been molested or my children..so I have never walked in the shoes of those who have been or have had children molested...so how can I tell that person "move on" when I haven't experienced it myself? Sorry if I don't make sense but each one of us are individuals /have different experiences..how wonderful if we could all have more love, kindness, compassion towards each other and not be judgemental towards each other regarding our experiences..have a lovely day!
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Post by sharonhargreaves on Oct 23, 2007 17:34:07 GMT -5
Clearday said: This is an interesting quote from the worker who said that. It provides a glimpse into the thought process of the workers and provides some evidence for what drives the traditional practice of covering up evil. Workers are afraid that if people learn the truth about them, they will stop coming to meetings. What a terrible bondage for the workers to be in as it tempts them to practice deception.
------------ Hope I get this copy and paste correct: Clearday - what you said is so perfect in a nutshell --
Real Truth can stand on it's own - can stand up to any scrutiny - If JESUS IS OUR TRUTH we will not have these fears..... these fears are the evidence that 'the truth' in the minds of friends and workers is indeed their system -
'the truth about them-'
as Jack Carroll taught 'the two foundation of {God's way} is the meetings in the home and the preacher without a home'
that system is their truth -
that system must appear 'perfect' since it is called 'the truth'
that is why so much gets swept away from sight -
It is a very sad place to be in your mind and living - I know, I was there a long time -
JESUS ONLY - NOTHING ADDED NOTHING TAKE AWAY IS THE ONLY TRUTH
we MUST all come
to him with our sins -
repent of them and bring them to the one who died in our place - the sinless for the sinners and all the sin of the world in fact -
if only we would just bring our burdens to him - forget all our self efforts and so-called systems that are so unneccessary. Not only unnecessary - but stand in the way of our Advocate to do for us what we need and cannot do for ourselves.
Thanks for your good observations - clearday.
sharon hargreaves
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 3:26:14 GMT -5
Some good thoughts shared and points raised on this thread.
Reference Jack Carroll's teachings,
'the two foundation of {God's way} is the meetings in the home and the preacher without a home'
I have heard this so many times from so many friends and workers that I am in no doubt these two commandments of Carroll have long replaced the two main commandments of Christ to love God and to Love our neighbour.
For many, living out "the church in the home and the ministry without a home" is the all essential. However, this is merely following the example of a "Worker Christ" rather than the Son of God whose "living example" for us to follow is fully contained within "Loving God and loving our neighbour as ourselves."
No wonder few if any Workers ever touch on the subject of loving our neighbour. In my experience there certainly was much preached about loving and obeying God, but the proof of the pudding of that love for God was always missing, i.e. loving your neighbour as yourself," and was replaced by a multitude of inferences of "loving this way as yourself."
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Post by linesinthesand on Oct 24, 2007 4:03:41 GMT -5
Clearday -
Care to point me to where I condone child molestation?
Please don't ever accuse me of saying or thinking something I did not such as "lets ignore it and let the abuse continue" or "parents don't do their job".
That has no place in my heart, I have already said to do something about it, not just talk everywhere about it.
This thread is not just about the children, its also about workers and friends. Isn't the entire forum about that? "Truth Meetings Board"
If it really is about the children, then the children must be educated firsthand, regardless of how innocent or unknowing they are, their world will be rocked when some pedophile starts molesting them, whoever that may be if they are not aware.
BUT only the child's parents have the right to do that.
I'm sorry that some people wont listen, maybe they don't have an open mind like you and I. Maybe they just cant handle the truth of child molestation.
I certainly hope no one here would go to their professing relatives and say something along the lines of "Don't let workers near your children, they might get molested" or "the truth must be wrong, cant you see it?".
I certainly wouldn't blame them for shutting their minds off.
Try telling america that they should'nt drive such huge vehicles, because it uses so much gas and that they should eat less mcdonalds because they are so fat, and you'll get a response along the lines of "mind your own business, not every american drives huge cars and eats mcdonalds and is fat".
I return to the thing i started with: You can keep kicking up a fuss about workers and friends, but the response you will not like.
Make your stand about Child Abuse and people might listen, not about Workers And Child Abuse.
After all, a few workers compared to a thousand, dose'nt mean a lot, it just means a man who molested some children is now going away for a long time (maybe he will learn), but the 999 others are still trying to do the right thing that they believe.
They have the right to that. You have the right to your opinion, but no ones shooting you down are they?
Maybe you don't like me, because you feel I am "protecting the guilty", but I am not, Rather I'm asking you to show some compassion towards those who don't deserve persecution.
You can bash Tim all you want, he's in for a lifetime of bashing inside and out most likely, and do you want to part of the mob?
I don't play along with what others want me to do professing or not professing, I do what i believe I should do, and I'm always going to what I believe.
Sure, we can all follow the shepherd like the sheep and let the shepherd feed us all, but if we find something we don't like the taste of, then we should question it within our hearts, and act accordingly to distance ourselves from that ingredient, not the entire feed, not tell everyone on the planet that "I don't like what I taste here and I have a problem with it, we should abandon the shepherd".
This is nothing personal between you and me or anyone else on this forum, you should do as you will, but don't be shocked when others don't follow along or agree with everything you say.
Peace to all mankind, may we all love one another, have compassion towards others, let go of the hatred towards those that have hurt us, stay away from what we feel is wrong, be willing to educate ourselves and be aware of what is going on around us, and judge no one, lest ourselves be the one who ends up being judged.
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Post by linesinthesand on Oct 24, 2007 4:16:04 GMT -5
Risks are high. Historical data indicate that as many as 1 in 25 Catholic priests had abuse accusations registered against them, and scholars tell us that not all abuse gets reported. If 1 in 25 male workers are abusers or potential abusers, the risks for young children are huge, much bigger than in the RCC. After all, workers live right in homes with children. ? The Roman Catholic Church must be an angel of a place then, perhaps you should move there instead, since the RCC has gay and bisexuals commonplace, it must be much much worse in "the truth". Are you sure this is just about child abuse? You assume, that 1 in 25 male workers is abusing or could be abusing "according to RCC statistics" of course. Why don't you just generalize? Because it certainly sounds like it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 5:02:41 GMT -5
Linesinthesand, like yourself I abhor child molestation. However, I think you are perhaps overlooking some very important points.
Yes, children must be educated. However, that alone will not stop them being molested, just like educating children about road sense will not stop them getting run down by cars occasionally. The drivers "also" have to be educated, controlled and legislated against for poor driving and its consequences. Sure, children will continue to get knocked down, but everything that can possibly be done to prevent its occurrence is brought into place. Don't look for fireproof systems in anything.
The Workers have consistently swept child molestation and other sexual matters under the rug. This is well attested to on this and other forums. This is a huge obstacle that simply must be overturned. Whether only a small percentage is involved or a large one, the problem is nevertheless a very serious one.
Clearly, Workers need educated as much as, if not more than children. How does a nine year old boy in a confined situation respond to a burly male pervert, even if he is educated ?
Whilst I agree parents should be brought sharply awake to the potential dangers of leaving their children alone with workers (or anyone else for that matter), there remains an urgent need for the workers themselves to be educated about the "potential harm" amidst their ranks, irrespective of how small this may be. The world at large is facing up to this in a very responsible way and the workers must be seen to be acting in similar fashion. Workers just have to be seen to be pro-active in bringing about practices and procedures designed to protect children as best they can, ESPECIALLY in view of the "unique" way in which the work operates with workers often residing in the homes of friends where their are children and other vulnerable people present.
The longer Workers procrastinate, the more suspicions will be aroused e.g. "what are they hiding ?" "Are those weilding the broom and lifting the corner of the rug, hiding things we don't know about ?" "Are they or their close associates involved ?" "Are they protecting each other ?"
The truth is that any proper investigation will almost certainly unveil additional matters to those already known.
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Post by Linesinthesand on Oct 24, 2007 6:54:29 GMT -5
Right, so moving forward.
What do you propose needs to be done to accomplish this?
Because this entire discussion or forum isn't about a 'secret sect' is it?
This is about PROTECTING CHILDREN.
Am I correct?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 9:34:45 GMT -5
The insidiousness of the child sexual abuse problem is that so little is known about it. Predators are usually highly skilled at avoiding detection. RCC statistics is hardly anything to be scoffed at except when your premise is that we are "holier than thou", "thank you Lord that we are not like those wretched Catholics". Their system of celibate, authoritative religious leaders has a lot in common with the worker system. This is hardly generalizing, it is factual. Read the article on abuse for yourself. news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071020/ap_on_re_us/teacher_sex_abuseIt is "hear no evil, see no evil" folks like yourself who are creating a dangerous risk environment for our children. Predators love this mindset. Risks are high. Historical data indicate that as many as 1 in 25 Catholic priests had abuse accusations registered against them, and scholars tell us that not all abuse gets reported. If 1 in 25 male workers are abusers or potential abusers, the risks for young children are huge, much bigger than in the RCC. After all, workers live right in homes with children. ? The Roman Catholic Church must be an angel of a place then, perhaps you should move there instead, since the RCC has gay and bisexuals commonplace, it must be much much worse in "the truth". Are you sure this is just about child abuse? You assume, that 1 in 25 male workers is abusing or could be abusing "according to RCC statistics" of course. Why don't you just generalize? Because it certainly sounds like it.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 24, 2007 10:57:22 GMT -5
Howdy, I thought that I would share a portion of an email I received from a guy I know who is professing. He is one of the people I trust most in this world. The trust has nothing to do with the fact he is professing....... I had asked him to share with me anything that would help me deal with the position I have found myself in lately. .......I can outline some of my own thoughts on sexual abusers amongst us that I have carried for a long time.
It is, of course, very disturbing and sad to find someone in a position of trust who abuses that position to act as a sexual predator, and worse, a pedophile. There is no place for such a person anywhere in society, and they need to be dealt with according to the law. That doesn’t mean that there is no possible hope for them spiritually or that they are to be cast aside without any help or pity, but supposed spirituality is not an excuse of any kind for doing wrong, and consequences must be borne. We do read of the one thief who was being crucified at the same time as Jesus who admitted that he was getting his just reward for the wrongs he had committed, but who genuinely repented and was accepted by Jesus. He did not ask to be spared from being crucified, because he recognized that death was the consequence of his deeds. A person who truly repents, even from something as awful as sexually abusing children, will be recognized by making an open, abject confession of his/her deeds and being openly accepting as well of any punishment and psychiatric help meted out by the law.
It is sad, but true, that throughout society people who are pedophiles or other types of sexual abusers find ways to get themselves into positions of trust and in close proximity to those they want to prey on by pretense and good acting. Boy scout leaders, grade school teachers, nurses, day care providers, and the list goes on. There was a big article in our paper just yesterday about how much more prevalent sexual abuse on the part of teachers in schools is than people realize. The ministry of Christ is not immune to that either. Jesus made it very clear to his first disciples that there would be false prophets, or preachers. He said they would come looking as trustworthy and harmless as sheep, but inwardly they would be “ravening wolves.” Other writers of the letters in the New Testament also warned of this. Such a person, whether one in our fellowship meetings or one with a position in the work, is NOT a brother or sister in Christ, but rather a criminal. Sometimes a person can get that issue confused just by the fact that the abuser appears to be a friend or worker (I’m not speaking here of someone who has committed some isolated wrong, but one who is a willful predator).
One can read about situations throughout the Bible where someone in a position of authority, responsibility, and/or trust within the fellowship was using their position as a cover to commit some pretty awful acts. Some recovered spiritually. Some didn’t. The most publicized of all is probably the account of David the King taking another man’s wife for a fling and having her husband killed when she became pregnant. David recovered from this, but it wasn’t a simple matter of saying “I’m sorry” and moving on. Repentance is much, much deeper than that. It took him at least two years to both come to grips with what he had done and to repent from the bottom of the spiritual and emotional pit that he had dug for himself. He was willing not only to admit his wrong openly, but to accept that it was wrong and to be accepting of anything that God would demand of him for his misdeed. Furthermore, he put a definite end to that kind of behavior on his part. There are various other accounts in the Bible as well. For example, read Revelation 2v20.
The issue of forgiveness and repentance is one that a malicious abuser of spiritual trust twists to his/her own advantage, and that is why (I think) that such situations can go on unchecked for so long. We are taught by Christ himself that we must forgive. So, an abuser can bring this up, “You must forgive me and not tell anyone about this, because that’s what the Bible teaches,” (which is a lie; that is NOT what the Bible teaches) or this, “Let’s go ahead and do this because we can forgive each other and God has promised to forgive us as well,” (which is also a lie; that is NOT what the Bible teaches). This is what is known as willful sinning. It is totally bogus. Forgiveness is an act that helps a victim heal come to peace, allowing him or her to live without bitterness in the spirit of Christ. Forgiveness does NOT imply not telling anyone about an abuser nor does it mean NOT reporting an abuser to the police in order to protect other potential victims. And focus on forgiveness alone leaves out the other absolutely necessary part of making forgiveness effective for the perpetrator: repentance. Without genuine repentance on the part of the perpetrator, no amount of genuine forgiveness on the part of the victim has any effect (except the effect of peace in the heart of the victim). I really believe that these aspects of forgiveness and repentance is something we should all be taught and learn very well, because as I mentioned already, an abuser of any kind likes to twist their real meanings around to suit his/her actions. Of course, just because a wrong is committed against us does not mean that we go running to the police. However, it is clear that criminal sexual abuse is one wicked wrong that must be reported to the police.
Neither repentance nor forgiveness implies that there are no consequences for the perpetrator. There are always consequences, whether the abuse goes unreported or not, and often both for the perpetrator and the victim. In the case of a pedophile, however, the abuse is usually the result of an emotional disorder that simply cannot be trusted. Even if a child abuser tries to come to terms with it, he/she cannot usually overcome it without intense psychiatric help that usually entails strictly keeping away from children. That is, getting what appears to be a genuine admission of guilt and what appears to be genuine repentance from a pedophile, and then giving him/her a fresh start somewhere else where he/she is not known is simply a recipe for disaster, as good as the intentions might have been on all sides. There simply is no place in the ministry for someone with those kinds of issues, because they represent a chronic, almost untreatable disease. That is also why so many laws have been put into place requiring sex offenders to register with the police and that it be publicly known where they live. No amount of jail time and/or rehabilitation effort seems to cure them.
It is no excuse, but I do think it helps us to understand the situation better if we realize that sexual abuse in families, very unfortunately, was often (and still to a large extent still today) not reported. Christ taught us that our fellowship is a spiritual family based on love, forgiveness, and repentance, which is indeed a wonderful, beautiful thing to experience. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. But it is not to be confused with the reality that a “false brother” or a “false prophet”—a predator who is preying on the flock under the guise of being a brother—could be in our company.
I understand these issues pretty well partly because I once found myself in a situation where I had to write a long letter to many of the overseers in the states around here about a serious problem. I had the same experience and response that you are having with Lyle, and some of these workers became very close friends as a result. One of the things I wrote was something like this: We sometimes think it is better not to air dirty laundry, but to keep it secret. There may be a time and place for that, but in general this fact is true: those who believe the truth of Christ can always handle an unpleasant and even awful truth far better than a deception from someone who should be representing truth. Sweeping dirt under a rug is not better than acknowledging it and cleaning it up openly when it obviously has an impact on others (as in the case with child abuse).
One thing I can say for all of our personal family is that we can be very grateful that our Mom and Dad lived the truth before us and always taught us by their own lives that our ultimate confidence and trust was in God, not in workers or other friends. We were taught to love and respect the workers and friends with all our hearts, but I know that I understood from the time that I was just a little guy that we did not worship workers or stake our salvation on them. I also remember from the time I was little that this is exactly what all true workers taught us themselves, and what the apostles in the New Testament taught and lived (perhaps the one thing I have noticed above all else that makes a true worker most uncomfortable is when they sense that someone is worshiping them, or treating them as if they were not fallible or not a human being with the same passions, struggles, and emotions that all humans have). What that has done for me is quite remarkable. I have been disappointed, sometimes severely, by the misdeeds of another person I assumed to be a brother or sister in Christ. That hasn’t shaken my confidence in Christ or the strength of my love and trust in true brothers or sisters in Christ. That is a nice legacy to have.
Well, it is getting late here, and I need to hit the sack. Thanks, Scott, for your e-mail and the help you were able to provide in this situation......... I don't think he would mind me sharing this information he sent me. Anybody that knows him would expect this to be the type of response he would have. It is the same response our dad would have had..... I don't tell him I love him as often as I should... if ever, but..... If you happen to be reading here my dear big brother Rocky, Thank you so much for being you. Scott
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Post by rational on Oct 24, 2007 18:40:06 GMT -5
rational I totally agree with reporting to the authorities. It is the ONLY way that this will be stopped. However, we can't just turn our heads and mind our own business. If you believe the only way to stop this is to report it to the authorities, there is no need for the "however" and whatever follows it. I have seen a lot of posts here talking about protecting the children and getting things out into the open but I have yet to see one person who claims to know about a case of child abuse reporting it to the authorities. No, they get away with it because it is not reported to the authorities when it happens. You can gossip about all the cases you wish here but it will not stop one criminal from continuing with what they have been doing. Does it really matter if the children are related or not? It is called education. You can not call what is posted here facts. If they were they could be reported to the authorities. Read what has been posted. If you didn't think the workers could be guilty would you be inclined to believe what is written? Hmmm - I thought it was you who implied that Jesus would not just walk by. My error.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 18:59:56 GMT -5
Very nice article Scott, thanks. Sounds like your bro has his head screwed on straight!
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