|
Post by hazelbush on May 4, 2011 8:12:00 GMT -5
Is it a physical or an emotional sickness that is the biggest problem at present?? Is it the big blow-up last summer that is having an after effect now with the younger ones??
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
IRELAND
May 4, 2011 21:47:37 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 4, 2011 21:47:37 GMT -5
What 'big blow-up last Summer' was that?
(I am from a Land Downunder' so forgive my ignorance).
I thought all would be well in the 'well-spring of truth' - Ireland.
|
|
|
Post by hazelbush on May 6, 2011 2:01:53 GMT -5
There was two of the men left off the list deliberately and no explainations given. Another had his name on new list ok, but moreor less told he wasn't fit, so got the door out also. Then all spring there seems to be another young one, boys and girls, going home each week......... Think the only ones really staying in there are the older ones who have no place else to go, and are only a torture to the younger ones......
|
|
|
Post by emerald on May 6, 2011 6:55:45 GMT -5
XX was left of the list for reasons well hashed over on the thread "Can a worker be given the sack?"
YYYY was left off the list for paedophilia with young girls, offences stretching back over 40 yrs.
I've been told that many of the younger workers (out within the past 5 yrs) are badly shaken by these events and it's affected their nerves - unable to sleep etc. so they've been sent home early for a few weeks to recuperate before going to preps.
The worker whose name was on the list before having a chance to go out was supposedly molested by XX after offering and before going out so he withdrew his offer. This is hearsay, I can't say if it's true but the other information about XX and YYYY is true. Tommie Gamble will talk to anyone about these issues if they are troubling them.
|
|
aus1
Junior Member
Posts: 67
|
IRELAND
May 7, 2011 22:12:35 GMT -5
Post by aus1 on May 7, 2011 22:12:35 GMT -5
Surley the workers worldwide are wondering where this is all going to end for them. Myy heart goes out those young workers in Ireland.
A senior worker (who is squeeky clean) needs to take on this issue worldwide and endeavour to sort things out.
The current situation in Victoria, Australia is pathetic. The leadership needs to be completely chnaged out but they continue to bumble along.
It appears the chnages are not going to come from inside the ministry, it looks like it won't be until the friends demand it (like the current arab revolution) that things will change.
i figure most people are just too scared to 'rock the boat'
|
|
|
IRELAND
May 7, 2011 23:57:48 GMT -5
Post by electbygrace on May 7, 2011 23:57:48 GMT -5
YYYY was left off the list for paedophilia with young girls, offences stretching back over 40 yrs. If this is true, YYYY should be facing man's justice and prison. How do Friends face the prospect of their revered workers facing imprisonment for sexually abusing young children? Their desperate need is for repentance. They won't escape God's judgement for sexual abusers of young girls. Credibility of workers in Ireland is very low.
|
|
|
Post by spiders on May 8, 2011 1:34:29 GMT -5
Surley the workers worldwide are wondering where this is all going to end for them. Myy heart goes out those young workers in Ireland. A senior worker (who is squeeky clean) needs to take on this issue worldwide and endeavour to sort things out. The current situation in Victoria, Australia is pathetic. The leadership needs to be completely chnaged out but they continue to bumble along. It appears the chnages are not going to come from inside the ministry, it looks like it won't be until the friends demand it (like the current arab revolution) that things will change. i figure most people are just too scared to 'rock the boat' I agree aus1. There seems to be new revelations of CSA and sexual immorality emerging nearly every day! It is a world wide problem that if not dealt with properly will have dire consequences for the f&w fellowship. The problem is that a lot of cases exist at the very top of the worker hierarchy and they cover up for those under them. I think the lack of a proper organisation has helped foster the continuing problems of CSA. As you say "A senior worker (who is squeeky clean) needs to take on this issue worldwide and endeavour to sort things out." But does such a person(s) exist and do they have enough will power and authority to act?
|
|
|
Post by spiders on May 8, 2011 1:36:49 GMT -5
YYYY was left off the list for paedophilia with young girls, offences stretching back over 40 yrs. If this is true, YYYY should be facing man's justice and prison. How do Friends face the prospect of their revered workers facing imprisonment for sexually abusing young children? Their desperate need is for repentance. They won't escape God's judgement for sexual abusers of young girls. Credibility of workers in Ireland is very low. It is not only in Ireland where the workers have low credibility
|
|
|
Post by hazelbush on May 8, 2011 1:37:56 GMT -5
Sadly there are more than YYYY needs judgement but even if anyone tried to mention such, they are not listened to and it's only making all far worse than ever were. All have got away with somuch for so long that they think they can still get away with it and they carry on as if wrong is now right. Someof the sisters are worse with the men and women also, but think their craftiness is covering up all. The courts need to sort out a lot. However, the Righteous Judge will sort all one day anyway.
|
|
aus1
Junior Member
Posts: 67
|
Post by aus1 on May 8, 2011 2:20:53 GMT -5
The workers don’t appear to understand (in Australia anyway) that by taking the ‘bull by the horns’ they will in fact get respect and credibility. My feeling is that they are very afraid of the fallout that could come from the increased exposure.
Interesting comment on who is ‘squeaky clean’ - In NSW, the elder there is hardly going to pursue cases. It was stated before on these boards that IT was moved to South Australia because he tackled CM over issues involving himself, which I have heard are quite well known amongst the friends and workers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2011 3:30:52 GMT -5
YYYY was left off the list for paedophilia with young girls, offences stretching back over 40 yrs................. Tommie Gamble will talk to anyone about these issues if they are troubling them. This is a very serious allegation. Is anyone aware whether Tommy Gamble has talked to the police about this issue? I'm sure this issue would trouble the police if they were made aware of it. Section 5 of the Criminal Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1967 places a duty on everyone to report to the police information they may have about the commission of a criminal offence which is subject to a maximum sentence of 5 years or more. The maximum penalty for failing to do so is a prison sentence of between 3 and 10 years depending on the gravity of the offence. If Tommy Gamble or any other worker knows, or believes, that such an offence has been committed and has information that would be of material assistance in securing, the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of any person for that offence, then they may have a legal duty to give that information to the police. Others here may be in a better position than me to determine whether the workers need to be reminded of this. Matt10
|
|
|
Post by emerald on May 8, 2011 7:08:57 GMT -5
It's not an allegation Matt10. It's a statement.
From what I hear, many (some?) of his victims do not want to go to the police about it therefore nothing has been done. I think the man is senile and over 90yrs old too, so not sure how that would affect any prospect of prosecution, if anyone was prepared to go to the police.
|
|
|
Post by emerald on May 8, 2011 7:40:44 GMT -5
YYYY was left off the list for paedophilia with young girls, offences stretching back over 40 yrs. If this is true, YYYY should be facing man's justice and prison. How do Friends face the prospect of their revered workers facing imprisonment for sexually abusing young children? Their desperate need is for repentance. They won't escape God's judgement for sexual abusers of young girls. Credibility of workers in Ireland is very low. I wouldn't say credibility is low. There is much disappointment (revulsion even) in the workers discussed here, but the general consensus (amongst my friends anyway) is the majority of the workers are doing their best to uphold a Christ-filled, Christ-like life (in as far as possible that a human can do this). Most of my friends will rally around and support workers who they feel are genuine and I think because of the explosive revelations of the past year or so, the rank and file workers are keen to live lives as blameless as possible, which has to be a good thing. As I mentioned elsewhere, at over 90yrs of age and somewhat senile, YYYY is unlikely to face any official interrogation, much less justice.
|
|
|
Post by apple on May 8, 2011 8:36:44 GMT -5
WMcB was left off the list for paedophilia with young girls, offences stretching back over 40 yrs................. Tommie Gamble will talk to anyone about these issues if they are troubling them. This is a very serious allegation. Is anyone aware whether Tommy Gamble has talked to the police about this issue? I'm sure this issue would trouble the police if they were made aware of it. Section 5 of the Criminal Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1967 places a duty on everyone to report to the police information they may have about the commission of a criminal offence which is subject to a maximum sentence of 5 years or more. The maximum penalty for failing to do so is a prison sentence of between 3 and 10 years depending on the gravity of the offence. If Tommy Gamble or any other worker knows, or believes, that such an offence has been committed and has information that would be of material assistance in securing, the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of any person for that offence, then they have a legal duty to give that information to the police. Others here may be in a better position than me to determine whether the workers need to be reminded of this. Matt10 Matt10 I made it my business to remind a relatively highly positioned Irish worker of this.The worker confessed to being in contact for years with an Irish man from Cork who entered the work and had fiddled with a boy in France.This Cork man refused at the time to admit he had done wrong even when he had been returned to Ireland and kicked out of the work and yet this worker who says he is careful not to hug children and who agrees that sexual abuse of children is wrong- claims the Cork man is truly repentant of his sin and refuses to see that the Cork man was really repentant he would hand himself in to the police.I explained to this worker that to not report the Cork man to the police and to cover up for him was a crime that gains time in prison but still he refused to accept that.In his eyes repentance is all this is needed but in a case as serious as sexual acts with a minor the law is the abuser must go to jail- and when we look at scripture it is clear that Christians are to obey the laws of the land so long as they do not go against scriptural teachings.
|
|
|
Post by apple on May 8, 2011 9:07:18 GMT -5
If this is true, YYYY should be facing man's justice and prison. How do Friends face the prospect of their revered workers facing imprisonment for sexually abusing young children? Their desperate need is for repentance. They won't escape God's judgement for sexual abusers of young girls. Credibility of workers in Ireland is very low. Most of my friends will rally around and support workers I am sorry to hear that.The workers teach us lies about the founding of the group, live of us, slander all other Christians and lead us to a false gospel- so why should they be worthy of support? As I mentioned elsewhere, at over 90yrs of age and somewhat senile, YYYY is unlikely to face any official interrogation, much less justice. Not a valid excuse.Haven't you heard of the 88 year old Nazi who is on trial? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_DemjanjukOr the suspected Nazi of 97 on trial? www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=219475&R=R5 And what about the Nazi hitman in his 88th year being jailed? www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/7504014/Nazi-hitman-88-jailed-for-life-over-Netherlands-murders.htmlOr the 80 year old Ku Klux Klan murderer? www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1492651/Ex-Ku-Klux-Klan-leader-80-jailed-for-60-years.htmlOr for closer to the behaviour of some workers, what about the 62 year old Catholic priest on trial for raping boys? oldmidhurstian.blogspot.com/2011/02/former-catholic-priest-on-trial-for.htmlOr the 88 year old abuser jailed a few months back? menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1188610_pervert_88_jailed_for_abuse_40_years_agoOld age and poor health is not an excuse for serious crimes.Let them spend their last days in a prison hospital considering the past, not free, especially the sex abusers, those people keep on at it until they are caught.While this many seem harsh remember that no victim of sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, Ku Klux Klan or the Holocaust can be truly free from what they have experienced.They can come to terms with what happened but they can never get rid of the memories, but the abusers can.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
IRELAND
May 8, 2011 10:41:03 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2011 10:41:03 GMT -5
It's not an allegation Matt10. It's a statement. From what I hear, many (some?) of his victims do not want to go to the police about it therefore nothing has been done. I think the man is senile and over 90yrs old too, so not sure how that would affect any prospect of prosecution, if anyone was prepared to go to the police. Emerald The point is that those in senior positions (i.e. senior workers) in the organisation have a legal duty to bring information on any offence allegedly committed by YYYY to the notice of the police within a reasonable time if they have information that would be of material assistance in securing the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of any person for that offence. The law does not provide for discretion on the part of those who have information on such offences. Neither does the law provide an exemption in relation to persons over a certain age or persons suffering from a mental disorder. It is therefore not a question of whether senior workers with information about the alleged crimes are prepared to go to the police. The question is whether Tommy Gamble or any other senior worker is guilty of a criminal offence given that it is an offence under Section 5(1) of the 1967 Act to fail to give such information to the police. Matt10
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
IRELAND
May 8, 2011 11:04:02 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2011 11:04:02 GMT -5
Old age and poor health is not an excuse for serious crimes.Let them spend their last days in a prison hospital considering the past, not free, especially the sex abusers, those people keep on at it until they are caught.While this many seem harsh remember that no victim of sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, Ku Klux Klan or the Holocaust can be truly free from what they have experienced.They can come to terms with what happened but they can never get rid of the memories, but the abusers can. Apples Neither are old age and poor health an excuse for not reporting serious crimes to the police. It is up to the police to determine whether there is sufficient basis to proceed with an investigation and up to the PPS to determine whether it is in the public interest to bring about a prosecution based on the outcome of any police investigation. Obviously I am not aware of the full facts of the matter however I would suggest that any failure to report such a serious matter to the police sends out a clear message about how senior workers now view the matter of sexual abuse carried out by members of their organisation. If this is indeed the case one can only wonder how much they have learned from the rather unseemly Noel Tanner episode. Perhaps a senior worker may care to comment? Matt10
|
|
|
IRELAND
May 8, 2011 13:31:04 GMT -5
Post by apple on May 8, 2011 13:31:04 GMT -5
Matt10, I wasn't refering to Tanner but another Cork abuser.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
IRELAND
May 8, 2011 13:41:19 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2011 13:41:19 GMT -5
Apples,
My reference to Tanner wasn't made in relation to your Cork reference although I can understand how you might have thought that it was. My reference to Tanner was based on the fact that Mr Gamble was involved in dealing (or perhaps not dealing) with the fall out from the Tanner episode and therefore one would expect that he might have learned a little about how to deal (or perhaps how not to deal) with the issue of abuse. Matt10
|
|
|
IRELAND
May 8, 2011 14:29:50 GMT -5
Post by apple on May 8, 2011 14:29:50 GMT -5
Matt10 I made it my business to remind a relatively highly positioned Irish worker of this.The worker confessed to being in contact for years with an Irish man from Cork who entered the work and had fiddled with a boy in France.This Cork man refused at the time to admit he had done wrong even when he had been returned to Ireland and kicked out of the work and yet this worker who says he is careful not to hug children and who agrees that sexual abuse of children is wrong- claims the Cork man is truly repentant of his sin and refuses to see that the Cork man was really repentant he would hand himself in to the police.I explained to this worker that to not report the Cork man to the police and to cover up for him was a crime that gains time in prison but still he refused to accept that.In his eyes repentance is all this is needed but in a case as serious as sexual acts with a minor the law is the abuser must go to jail- and when we look at scripture it is clear that Christians are to obey the laws of the land so long as they do not go against scriptural teachings. WELL WELL WELL I was aware of what happened in France at the time and since. It was the brother worker in question who reported the event to his senior workers. He said he was in the wrong and it shouldn't have happened. He was a worker and should not have taken advantage of the youth in his mid teens despite the situation. My understanding is that this was not a situation of a non consenusal nature, that the worker in question asked to be sent home and that it was the youth's father that asked it not be taken any further. Having returned home he was not allowed to attend any meetings for quite some time. He was then allowed to attend convention and the mission. At special meetings he confessed in a meeting that he had done wrong and wished to profess again. Prior to this many meeting had taken place with TG and AB and also a meeting with a senior French worker Conversations and corrospopondence have taken place between the former worker and the family in France, there is no hard feelings or bad spirit between them What occurred was reported and admitted straight away to the senior worker there, was never denied and for this reason a good spirit is to be found among all concerned and that a repentant spirit is still present I do not care about any of this.Nor those the law. It is against the law to have any kind of sexual activity with a minor regardless of the minor being willing or not.
|
|
|
IRELAND
May 8, 2011 15:37:09 GMT -5
Post by emerald on May 8, 2011 15:37:09 GMT -5
It's not an allegation Matt10. It's a statement. From what I hear, many (some?) of his victims do not want to go to the police about it therefore nothing has been done. I think the man is senile and over 90yrs old too, so not sure how that would affect any prospect of prosecution, if anyone was prepared to go to the police. Emerald The point is that those in senior positions (i.e. senior workers) in the organisation have a legal duty to bring information on any offence allegedly committed by YYYY to the notice of the police within a reasonable time if they have information that would be of material assistance in securing the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of any person for that offence. The law does not provide for discretion on the part of those who have information on such offences. Neither does the law provide an exemption in relation to persons over a certain age or persons suffering from a mental disorder. It is therefore not a question of whether senior workers with information about the alleged crimes are prepared to go to the police. The question is whether Tommy Gamble or any other senior worker is guilty of a criminal offence given that it is an offence under Section 5(1) of the 1967 Act to fail to give such information to the police. Matt10 I don't disagree with what you are saying Matt10, but I doubt many, if any of the workers are aware of the finer points of the law. It's easier to remove the man and be seen to be doing something, especially if the victims are reluctant to come forward than becoming embroiled in a legal process none are equipped to deal with. I see small steps in the right direction and in time, we may see further progress in the understanding of the law and the procedures that must be followed prior to taking into account the wishes of the victims.
|
|
|
IRELAND
May 8, 2011 15:52:02 GMT -5
Post by emerald on May 8, 2011 15:52:02 GMT -5
Most of my friends will rally around and support workers I am sorry to hear that.The workers teach us lies about the founding of the group, live of us, slander all other Christians and lead us to a false gospel- so why should they be worthy of support? As I mentioned elsewhere, at over 90yrs of age and somewhat senile, YYYY is unlikely to face any official interrogation, much less justice. Not a valid excuse.Haven't you heard of the 88 year old Nazi who is on trial? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_DemjanjukOr the suspected Nazi of 97 on trial? www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=219475&R=R5 And what about the Nazi hitman in his 88th year being jailed? www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/7504014/Nazi-hitman-88-jailed-for-life-over-Netherlands-murders.htmlOr the 80 year old Ku Klux Klan murderer? www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1492651/Ex-Ku-Klux-Klan-leader-80-jailed-for-60-years.htmlOr for closer to the behaviour of some workers, what about the 62 year old Catholic priest on trial for raping boys? oldmidhurstian.blogspot.com/2011/02/former-catholic-priest-on-trial-for.htmlOr the 88 year old abuser jailed a few months back? menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1188610_pervert_88_jailed_for_abuse_40_years_agoOld age and poor health is not an excuse for serious crimes.Let them spend their last days in a prison hospital considering the past, not free, especially the sex abusers, those people keep on at it until they are caught.While this many seem harsh remember that no victim of sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, Ku Klux Klan or the Holocaust can be truly free from what they have experienced.They can come to terms with what happened but they can never get rid of the memories, but the abusers can. Apple, I will rally round and support workers who are genuine in their desire to preach the Gospel and to reach the lost. I am fully aware of the contentious points in their teachings, fully aware of the nonsense preached about no Earthly founder, fully aware that they do not believe that people outside the meetings cannot have a hope of eternity. I will however, challenge them on issues that I feel ought to be addressed should it be teachings, cover-ups, closing rank against troublesome friends etc. but this will not prevent me and my friends from supporting those that we feel are genuine. I have no argument with you on the proper handling of accusations of abuse/molestation. I just sense there is a reluctance amongst the workers and the victims to follow their legal obligations - it seems that exposing his sordid past to topple him from the position long held as a respected senior worker is to be his Earthly justice.
|
|
|
IRELAND
May 9, 2011 14:52:29 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on May 9, 2011 14:52:29 GMT -5
Dear "allegations", thank you for bringing this to my attention. For the reasons you properly state, I intend to xxx out the initials. However, let me say that I have had presented before me substantive evidence from multiple and credible sources, including one purported victim, of the truth behind the allegations in one case. I have no knowledge or evidence in regards to the other alleged perpetrator. But no criminal charges have been laid in either case and so your request is one with wisdom I believe. Thank you for your concern in this matter. admin Thank you, Admin. Like the other poster, I would also be interested to hear the substantive evidence against one worker. Until now I had believed that he made many mistakes and committed immoral acts - immoral, but not illegal as far as the law of the land goes. Looks like I was mistaken. I understand that the sharing of this evidence may not be possible, but if it is I would appreciate it. I'd also like to add that the "worker who had offered and was on the list but didn't get a chance to go out because he was assaulted by XX" had in fact spent two years in the work and left for an entirely different - honourable - reason. Perhaps this post could be added to the other thread, as I am unable to post there. Thanks[/size].[/quote]
|
|
|
IRELAND
Aug 20, 2011 2:32:16 GMT -5
Post by jeremiah on Aug 20, 2011 2:32:16 GMT -5
If there cannot be some level of forgiveness and help for some of these people, what should be done? Should we kill em all, or what already?
|
|
|
IRELAND
Aug 20, 2011 7:16:05 GMT -5
Post by apple on Aug 20, 2011 7:16:05 GMT -5
If there cannot be some level of forgiveness and help for some of these people, what should be done? Should we kill em all, or what already? Of course, forgiveness is necessary but in serious crimes such a child s-x abuse, the abuser must first be kept away from society until he/she learns through treatment to control his dangerous urges and to accept that their actions were wrong.Unless such an abuser repents, we cannot trust that person not to reoffend again.This may sound harsh, but crimes of s-xual nature and s-x crimes against children damage the victims for life. Such crimes are very different in nature to say the crimes of extortion or of stealing or of damage to property because they are so serious. They reveal the abuser as a very damaged person, and in some cases - quite evil, and while I have pity for such people who cannot see what it is that they have done wrong- because of this very lack of empathy for their victims & shame over their crimes- they cannot be released into society because they might just strike again on another child or woman.The vulnerable in society must be protected- both those who could be attacked by such predators, and the attacker who sometimes cannot stop him/her self.Many child s-x abusers prove themselves to be plotting in the means they pick their victims- what is often done is the abuser puts himself in a position of trust by choosing a job that will put him/her into contact with children.He/she will them befriend the shyest or most neglected children, offer them treats, befriend their parents- and then attack, promising punishment should the victim speak out.This kind of thing is unacceptable.It's very sad because often such people on return from prison are not wanted in any community and we all know why.
|
|
|
IRELAND
Aug 20, 2011 11:20:01 GMT -5
Post by imnx2 on Aug 20, 2011 11:20:01 GMT -5
If there cannot be some level of forgiveness and help for some of these people, what should be done? Should we kill em all, or what already? Yup, go Old Testament on them.
|
|
|
IRELAND
Aug 20, 2011 15:42:03 GMT -5
Post by emerald on Aug 20, 2011 15:42:03 GMT -5
If there cannot be some level of forgiveness and help for some of these people, what should be done? Should we kill em all, or what already? Who do you think needs to do the forgiving? It's easy to tell people we ought to forgive these criminals and truthfully, if we've not been victims ourselves, it's a great deal easier to do than if we have been victims. What steps do you suggest a victim should make in order to come to a place of forgiving their abuser? Do you even think it's possible they can truly forgive?
|
|
|
IRELAND
Aug 21, 2011 10:11:53 GMT -5
Post by apple on Aug 21, 2011 10:11:53 GMT -5
If there cannot be some level of forgiveness and help for some of these people, what should be done? Should we kill em all, or what already? Yup, go Old Testament on them.
|
|