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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 15, 2011 12:41:18 GMT -5
As I've read through discussions on the main board regarding whether or not friends and workers see Christian Conventions as "the one way" or not, some discussions from my time in the work came to mind - these were sometimes with companions, sometimes within a larger group of workers - such as a prep crew - and they at times came in the form of visits with "interest."
A general discussion that I remember coming up from time to time, among varying workers, was whether or not it was best that people understand "that this is the only way" before they profess, or if it wasn't really necessary to worry about it, that the Spirit would teach them in time. And I remember discussions about so-and-so finally coming to the realization - "receiving a revelation" - that "this is the only way."
When Joel Boyd and I were in SW Los Angeles in 1981-82 (my 2nd year in the work, though it's not on the list that way), we and the friends in the area passed out tens of thousands of invitations on several successive Saturdays. One lady began coming to gospel meeting as a result, coming for several weeks, probably a few months in all. She loved the meetings, and felt she was being helped there.
The time came when we were required to go somewhere - probably special meetings in the spring - and, knowing that this woman was quite religious and considered herself "saved," Joel and I discussed the need to ask her not to take part in the meetings while we were gone, the implication of course being that she was not saved. We had a visit, and Joel of course was the one that told her, though I very much believed things the same way at that time. It was just the way we all thought. The woman was very hurt and never came to another meeting.
Another incident was when my brother-in-law, who had professed before and then stopped coming to meeting, stood up and gave his testimony at Buttonwillow convention. A fellow worker (and good friend) commented, "I hope he's not trying to get in through the back door." I was astounded at this comment, as the man had made it very clear in his testimony that he knew he had not been a part of things, and wanted to get right.
This incident isn't dealing specifically with someone from another denomination, and questions regarding their faith or salvation, but it still contained the implications that "this is the fold; you enter it when a worker gives the invitation."
Again, I'm attempting to point to the talk surrounding practices - teachings that were often not explicitly stated or taught, but they were very much there in the implications.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 15, 2011 13:25:29 GMT -5
The thing I'm trying to point out is that the belief that "this is the only way" was very much there in my own experience, though some professing people don't necessarily see it that way now.
Another way this is implied is in the way people are spoken about when they decide to no longer attend meetings. It's not just accepted as a personal choice, for whatever reasons, but it often spoken of with great sadness, implying that a person has "lost their salvation." Even the commonly used expression "lost out" implies something dreadful occurring, not just a simple choice to do things differently.
I realize that this may be your belief, and that is okay - I'm not trying to change your beliefs. But I have read postings that indicate some feel this hasn't been taught, and I am relating things from my experience - both as a worker and later - that both taught me and I was also a part of. I too was of the inclination to "let the "Spirit" teach them. I was certainly no "hellfire-and-brimstone" preacher, but I still took part in the talk implying that "this is the one true way of God."
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Post by emy on Feb 15, 2011 21:05:18 GMT -5
As I've read through discussions on the main board regarding whether or not friends and workers see Christian Conventions as "the one way" or not, some discussions from my time in the work came to mind - these were sometimes with companions, sometimes within a larger group of workers - such as a prep crew - and they at times came in the form of visits with "interest." A general discussion that I remember coming up from time to time, among varying workers, was whether or not it was best that people understand "that this is the only way" before they profess, or if it wasn't really necessary to worry about it, that the Spirit would teach them in time. And I remember discussions about so-and-so finally coming to the realization - "receiving a revelation" - that "this is the only way." When Joel Boyd and I were in SW Los Angeles in 1981-82 (my 2nd year in the work, though it's not on the list that way), we and the friends in the area passed out tens of thousands of invitations on several successive Saturdays. One lady began coming to gospel meeting as a result, coming for several weeks, probably a few months in all. She loved the meetings, and felt she was being helped there. The time came when we were required to go somewhere - probably special meetings in the spring - and, knowing that this woman was quite religious and considered herself "saved," Joel and I discussed the need to ask her not to take part in the meetings while we were gone, the implication of course being that she was not saved. We had a visit, and Joel of course was the one that told her, though I very much believed things the same way at that time. It was just the way we all thought. The woman was very hurt and never came to another meeting. I am aware of one similar situation in our field several years back Another incident was when my brother-in-law, who had professed before and then stopped coming to meeting, stood up and gave his testimony at Buttonwillow convention. A fellow worker (and good friend) commented, "I hope he's not trying to get in through the back door." I was astounded at this comment, as the man had made it very clear in his testimony that he knew he had not been a part of things, and wanted to get right. I'm thankful one of our children apparently was welcomed back in "through the back door." Not sure how he would have reacted to needing to profess again.This incident isn't dealing specifically with someone from another denomination, and questions regarding their faith or salvation, but it still contained the implications that "this is the fold; you enter it when a worker gives the invitation." Again, I'm attempting to point to the talk surrounding practices - teachings that were often not explicitly stated or taught, but they were very much there in the implications.
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Post by emy on Feb 15, 2011 21:07:19 GMT -5
I agree.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 16, 2011 3:30:25 GMT -5
But my point here is not to discuss whether or not it is better to tell people or to allow the spirit to reveal things. I believe in revelation too. My point is that many workers that I was around did feel that "this is the only true way," and they were often very concerned to see people come to that realization or revelation. Many times I have heard workers talking about people having really "gotten it" when they "see that this is God's way." I'm not really even faulting them for believing this, but I'm pointing to the fact that it was believed by many of those that I was around, and and I'm pointing to some of the talk "around" this topic.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Feb 16, 2011 19:55:41 GMT -5
I have a problem with reprofessing and its this. To be bornagain is when the holy spirit enters a person spirit. The holy spirit doesnt come and go he remains and grows, it only takes repentence to put things right with God. I guess professing is not being bornagain? I now a number of people who had to reprofess which makes me now question what professing actually means because it cant mean the same as being bornagain. I see reprofessing as a means of controlling the person and humilating them. I dont know any person where this was required who wasnt humilated by it and left with many questions but did it in obedience to the workers. TO please them.
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Post by someguy on Feb 17, 2011 1:51:40 GMT -5
I have a problem with reprofessing and its this. To be bornagain is when the holy spirit enters a person spirit. The holy spirit doesnt come and go he remains and grows, it only takes repentence to put things right with God. I guess professing is not being bornagain? I now a number of people who had to reprofess which makes me now question what professing actually means because it cant mean the same as being bornagain. I see reprofessing as a means of controlling the person and humilating them. I dont know any person where this was required who wasnt humilated by it and left with many questions but did it in obedience to the workers. TO please them. ~~ Professing is being born again. Reprofessing is renewing your vows or having a fresh start.... forgetting the past, a Clean start with a bright future.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve NOT the Holy Spirit of God, whereby we are sealed unto unto the day of redemption.
King David Ps. 51:10,11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take NOT thy Spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy Salvation, and uphold me with thy free spirit. The I will teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Not sure what the verses you quoted have to do with anything nate. I find your response a tad bit hypocritical. You said on another thread A study with Noels, please ~~ This man is still SAVED because he hadn't turned his back on God or STOP serving Him.... just his perishable works such as wood, hay, stubble burned up. But if he had turned his back on God then his Salvation would be in danger zone. If you actually believe this, why would someone who stopped professing, yet not turned their back on God need to reprofess? I don't profess anymore, but yet I still love the Lord and worship Him, but in your opinion I need to renew my vows if I want to come to meeting again. Weird
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Feb 17, 2011 6:51:12 GMT -5
I have a problem with reprofessing and its this. To be bornagain is when the holy spirit enters a person spirit. The holy spirit doesnt come and go he remains and grows, it only takes repentence to put things right with God. I guess professing is not being bornagain? I now a number of people who had to reprofess which makes me now question what professing actually means because it cant mean the same as being bornagain. I see reprofessing as a means of controlling the person and humilating them. I dont know any person where this was required who wasnt humilated by it and left with many questions but did it in obedience to the workers. TO please them. ~~ Professing is being born again. Reprofessing is renewing your vows or having a fresh start.... forgetting the past, a Clean start with a bright future.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve NOT the Holy Spirit of God, whereby we are sealed unto unto the day of redemption.
King David Ps. 51:10,11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take NOT thy Spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy Salvation, and uphold me with thy free spirit. The I will teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Nathan There is something wrong with your first sentence. It is assumption. I not once heard the workers preach about the need to be bornagain. In fact on this board a few yrs ago if you mentioned those words people questioned you. It is a biblical term for the gift of salvation and the process that happens to an individual spiritually being reconciled with the Father through Christ. Why would the workers choose the word "professing" and make it a vital discription of choice in preference to becoming bornagain.It may sound like I am splitting hairs. If it was important for the choice of wording with the apostles why not the workers who claim to be apostles?? Doesnt make sense to me. Your reference to Eph 4; do you think I am grieving the holy spirit challenging the workers on anything? How do you know Im not motivated by the holy spirit with the questions I ask? I should add that I understand perfectly the meaning of professing from a professing persons point of view but certainly not from a bornagain persons point of view. Ive been both..again not to confuse you.
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A10D
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Post by A10D on Feb 17, 2011 8:03:41 GMT -5
May I ask for a meaning of what "professing" means from a worker's view (or previous worker)?
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Feb 17, 2011 12:11:02 GMT -5
Nathan
Maybe it is different in other countries. Im going back 20 plus yrs. If what you say is true all over then thats great.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 17, 2011 12:55:56 GMT -5
May I ask for a meaning of what "professing" means from a worker's view (or previous worker)? For me, these terms - professing and born again - were always conflated. Of course, I knew the difference, with one referring to an act - usually standing up in meeting, as well as making a habit of attending meetings and taking part. And of course "born again" refers to something experienced between a person and God. And I'm sure most CC people would express this in a similar way if questioned too. However, the way the terms are used in the talk - in and out of meetings - belies a different meaning, or a conflation of the two. An immediate question in people's minds - as when talking about someone's children or relations - is "are they professing"? This shows me that a lot of weight is thrown on this! It's not just a matter of wondering which church they happen to attend. The comment I mentioned in my first post in this thread - "I hope he's not trying to get in through the back door" - is certainly not made in reference to the man just joining a specific congregation. It's relying on parables like the sheep and the sheep fold, though it's not specifically mentioned either. But those allusions become kind of "mixed together" in people's minds. We also used expressions like "kind of professing" or "professing but not possessing." This does acknowledge that professing itself is not the whole thing, but I still feel it points out the seriousness of "professing" in people's minds. Consider too the way people are spoken of when they no longer go to meetings - "lost out." At a funeral, the fact that a person is no longer "professing" brings great sadness. As always, I find that "official" statements may say one thing, but the way people talk about things, use them to exclude others, etc. tells me a lot. And, as I often state, I was very much a part of this, though some things did leave me feeling a bit uneasy - and I eventually had to confront those feelings! I and other workers did use the term "born again" in gospel meetings, and I feel it is a part of CC teaching, but it becomes replaced in every day talk with "professing."
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 17, 2011 13:09:49 GMT -5
I as a newbie ex-2x2 (3 years) have come to understand why I am not content and happy as I was while still in fellowship and professing. I believe that in my doubts of God and Jesus being in the 2x2 coupled with all the talk about lying of origins, I have come to a place where I was turning my back on the Love of God. Let's please not get into slinging this back and forth here! Many people - myself included - find that we finally found peace, power, and freedom from "guilt trips" once we stepped aside from meetings. If some find it within the meeting framework, that's okay too. But let's keep this centered around our experience as workers - how we understood things, what we did, what we enjoyed, what we struggled with (or in the present tense for current workers!) . . .
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A10D
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Post by A10D on Feb 17, 2011 13:53:50 GMT -5
Al, what does CC mean? It was used twice in your posted response.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 17, 2011 14:26:38 GMT -5
Al, what does CC mean? It was used twice in your posted response. Christian Conventions - I like to use it, since many terms are objectionable to various people - 2x2 can be taken as derogatory, "the truth" is not acceptable to some of us . . . I have taken to using Christian Conventions because it is the name officially chosen, at least in N. America, by workers, to be used in official situations, such as the letterhead on stationary my overseers used to send me statements of support when I was applying for visas in foreign countries. I do realize it can be confused with "Catholic Church," which is also sometimes abbreviated with "CC." Just my personal preference, maybe there's another option that would be better . .
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GoBlue
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Post by GoBlue on Feb 17, 2011 16:43:15 GMT -5
CC letterhead? I didn't realize that was still being used after WWII. I would enjoy hearing more about this topic.
Would the foreign countries accept this? I'm assuming the CC designation is really just a dummy title with no "LLC" or "Corporation" or actual entity? Did you view this as being disengenuous if there really is no "Christian Convention" organization behind it? Or did you feel it was a valid organization? Is this the same title that George Walker used? And the western states used the same title?
Thanks
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 17, 2011 17:02:50 GMT -5
CC letterhead? I didn't realize that was still being used after WWII. I would enjoy hearing more about this topic. I'm probably not the one to tell you much about it - I have heard the name, seen it used in the above-mentioned letterhead, and assume it has been more widely used for various legal purposes. Yes it was accepted, though these were very small countries, closely tied to the United States as former Strategic Trust Territories - The Federated States of Micronesia and The Republic of The Marshall Islands. I also traveled to larger Asian countries while in the work, but only for short stays, for which I could use regular tourist or visitor visas. I think it's more than a "dummy title," but others can better answer this. I believe it is a valid organization. I think the more interesting point is that some friends evidently do not know about it. I don't know about George Walker, though I believe most of N. America uses the title. Again, I defer to others . . . it did make it problematic, for me, to say "We only use the name of Jesus."
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Post by emy on Feb 17, 2011 17:24:38 GMT -5
Al, what does CC mean? It was used twice in your posted response. Christian Conventions - I like to use it, since many terms are objectionable to various people - 2x2 can be taken as derogatory, "the truth" is not acceptable to some of us . . . I have taken to using Christian Conventions because it is the name officially chosen, at least in N. America, by workers, to be used in official situations, such as the letterhead on stationary my overseers used to send me statements of support when I was applying for visas in foreign countries. I do realize it can be confused with "Catholic Church," which is also sometimes abbreviated with "CC." Just my personal preference, maybe there's another option that would be better . . I realize CC is much quicker than f&w fellowship, but I would much prefer using fellowship. Unless it's different among the workers, CC is never used in conversation or writing in my experience.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 17, 2011 17:31:36 GMT -5
Christian Conventions - I like to use it, since many terms are objectionable to various people - 2x2 can be taken as derogatory, "the truth" is not acceptable to some of us . . . I have taken to using Christian Conventions because it is the name officially chosen, at least in N. America, by workers, to be used in official situations, such as the letterhead on stationary my overseers used to send me statements of support when I was applying for visas in foreign countries. I do realize it can be confused with "Catholic Church," which is also sometimes abbreviated with "CC." Just my personal preference, maybe there's another option that would be better . . I realize CC is much quicker than f&w fellowship, but I would much prefer using fellowship. Unless it's different among the workers, CC is never used in conversation or writing in my experience. No, I never knew it to be used much among workers either, and I suppose that's why some people are unaware it exists. It seems like most of the "referents" we use are problematic for someone . . .
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Post by quizzer on Feb 21, 2011 0:29:24 GMT -5
Al, Even though the thread has deviated a bit from the exclusivity of the 2x2s, I think that even the use of the name "Christian Conventions" underscores the need for solid doctrine among the friends and workers.
There is great judgment in the meetings about who's saved, and just how saved they are. If a manual was written, and all could read it, then it would make the 2x2s more honest about their beliefs. It is the reliance on the subjective basis of salvation from others that is divisive in the fellowship.
Just my thoughts, and I welcome others, quizzer
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 21, 2011 1:00:00 GMT -5
Al, Even though the thread has deviated a bit from the exclusivity of the 2x2s, I think that even the use of the name "Christian Conventions" underscores the need for solid doctrine among the friends and workers. There is great judgment in the meetings about who's saved, and just how saved they are. If a manual was written, and all could read it, then it would make the 2x2s more honest about their beliefs. It is the reliance on the subjective basis of salvation from others that is divisive in the fellowship. Just my thoughts, and I welcome others, quizzer Quizzer, I feel that the lack of awareness of the name, and the way in which I was really afraid to say much about it as a worker, points to something that is being hidden. Perhaps it is not for outright fraud, or anything near that, but it is in conflict with ideas of "not having a name," even if it is done as a legal necessity. There were so many things like this that I always felt like I hoped I was "explaining it right" . . .
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Mar 11, 2011 19:15:14 GMT -5
Jesus said that we have to be born again to enter. To me that would be more like the first step toward walking with God. I don't think it was a term of salvation,as salvation is the end of our walk with God. Or the accomplishment of being born again.
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sorcron
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Post by sorcron on Mar 11, 2011 23:57:12 GMT -5
Jesus said that we have to be born again to enter. To me that would be more like the first step toward walking with God. I don't think it was a term of salvation,as salvation is the end of our walk with God. Or the accomplishment of being born again. perhaps 'hope of salvation'(?)
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Post by fred on Mar 12, 2011 5:11:33 GMT -5
Jesus said that we have to be born again to enter. To me that would be more like the first step toward walking with God. I don't think it was a term of salvation,as salvation is the end of our walk with God. Or the accomplishment of being born again. I believe that Salvation is the gift of eternal life - as to how you understand that, it depends on when you believe that gift is granted. The Bible teaches that salvation is an on-going process and that it is all the work of God : Firstly God chooses, then he calls, justifies, sanctifies, and lastly glorifies. Speaking of those chosen Paul says, "........ he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son....." And then, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called : and whom he called, them he justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Mar 12, 2011 5:40:48 GMT -5
Salvation begins when the holy spirit enters our spirit and we are bornagain. A new creation in Christ. Justified.Sanctified. Reconciled to the Father. This was the reason Jesus Christ came and died for humanity.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Mar 12, 2011 14:33:05 GMT -5
Hey let's keep it to (former) workers' experiences and understandings here . . .
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Post by fred on Mar 12, 2011 21:24:50 GMT -5
Hey let's keep it to (former) workers' experiences and understandings here . . . Ooops.... sorry Al - when you get to certain age you sometimes forget where you are.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Mar 12, 2011 22:25:18 GMT -5
Hey let's keep it to (former) workers' experiences and understandings here . . . Ooops.... sorry Al - when you get to certain age you sometimes forget where you are. Hey we all start clicking around in here, getting so absorbed in conversations, missing a turn-off, taking another one without realizing it . . . anyway, I'm not handing out citations!
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Post by nique on Mar 13, 2011 7:53:47 GMT -5
As a former worker and friendly, this concept was very much implied and quite frankly I totally bought into it as well. Revelation of newbies was satisfactory to the workers when this was part of it. And if people were drawn to the meetings but came already saved, we rejected them. When I stopped going to meetings, I was then considered lost.
I do understand where people are coming from when they no longer consider me saved, because I was there once. It is part of what truly bothers me. I think Al articulated it very well in saying that this way is a system and there are specific reactions to certain actions. It is to be expected. My single goal when stopping my meeting attendance was to see if I could start over again and expunge all the old ideas and mental responses from my mind, as well as all the things I had been taught and try to see the new testament with fresh eyes and understanding. If it leads me back to meetings then I would try to go, but if not I would want to see it does lead.
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