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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 10, 2011 19:47:11 GMT -5
I can only think of one DB and certainly didn't think he was difficult.
Darwin Bullwinkle?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 19:51:20 GMT -5
I can only think of one DB and certainly didn't think he was difficult.Darwin Bullwinkle? You mean Rocky's brother?
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 11, 2011 2:25:57 GMT -5
At my husbands fathers graveside service in San Diego this past July, DB officiated, along with Steve Pierson. Before the service, at the cemetery headquarters, the two workers came up to my husband and me in the parking lot. My husband has known both of them practically all his life and he gave Steve a great big hug and introduced me. I told Steve that I was Galen's sister; and he appeared delighted. He asked all about Galen's whereabouts and what he was doing, etc. Wanted me to be sure to give Galen his greetings. Steve and I worked together in the Chico region for a year. He's about 10 years older than I, and was 8 years my senior in the work, but I was given the "responsibility," since he had come back from West Africa (Benin) 2 or 3 years prior to that just worn out - he looked awful when he came back. Steve was a WONDERFUL companion, and I can just picture his delight at learning you are Galen's sister, Cherie. He took a sincere interest in EVERYONE. He would sit up late at nights visiting - and I mean sincerely visiting, taking an interest in people's lives and struggles. He is a person I would truly like to see again someday.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 11, 2011 3:19:52 GMT -5
Is DB the "stiff" worker being discussed? I can only think of one DB and certainly didn't think he was difficult. I can think of 2 DBs right off-hand, and I reckon there are a few more around too . . .
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 11, 2011 8:10:54 GMT -5
More things my brother Galen was "taught" by "senior" workers
After several months, another worker was sent to join us for a while. It was mainly because he couldn’t stand his own companion, which he told me about at great length, even though I kind of enjoyed the elderly gentleman, and would have much preferred him to my own companion. This younger guy was apparently having all kinds of other doubts, conflicts, and traumas about being in the work, which he didn’t talk about. I knew he had them though, because he took it all out on me. If he had wanted to talk about it, or discuss things, that would have been fine; but no, he just wanted to fight. A young worker’s first year in the work is difficult enough without someone deliberately adding to it. Everything you’ve had comfortable and familiar all your life is gone for good, and now nothing at all is permanent, constant, or routine. Every night is in a different home; every meal at a different table; and you have to act cheery and friendly around strangers all day long, whether you feel like it or not. The constant pressure of meetings, sermons, and visits, plus every young worker’s ultimate dread, preaching a funeral, all combines to make this year a thorough nightmare. And now this guy enters the picture, and makes life worse, on purpose. Had he already forgotten what it was like? I should think anyone who had already gone through his first year would do all he could to make it easier on someone else, but he was acting simply hateful. Even though I was two or three years older, he had already been in the work 5 years, and was therefore far above me in the seniority department, and wouldn’t even think of treating me as an equal or even as a friend. This hierarchy of who is the elder worker of any pair or group is measured down to the year, month, and even the week they went into the work. Age has little to do with it. This may sound absurd, but they apparently can’t come up with any better way to do it -- trying to choose the lead worker by means of his maturity or spirituality, rather than by simply how long he has been in the work, would just cause all kinds of trouble and hard feelings. At first, I tried to tell myself it was my fault that he was being so contrary. Maybe he was right about all those little faults he kept picking out in me. But soon, I just told myself (with shock that such could be true of a worker) that the way I was being treated was simply evil. I realized that one day on the way to Sunday morning meeting. There were just the two of us in the car. Usually on the way to meeting, companions are nearly silent, getting their thoughts ready for meeting, and that’s how it should be. But here he was quite deliberately trying to pick a fight, and on the way to meeting yet! He kept throwing out any line he could think of to try to make me say something he could argue about. The part I can remember went like this: A worker at a convention grounds had drowned a litter of kittens because the owner didn’t want the place overrun by cats when convention started. I remarked that I would never be able to do a thing like that. I wouldn’t say anything if someone else was to do it, but I never would do it myself. He asked me: “What if an older worker told you to do it?” “I don’t think one would ever make me, if I didn’t want to.” “But what if he did?” “I wouldn’t do it.” “You would have to! You vowed to obey in all things.” “That doesn’t apply to killing cats.” “It sure does! You can’t possibly refuse an order from an older worker.” “I would if I thought it was wrong.” “An order from an older worker is like an order from God. You wouldn’t refuse Him, would you?” “God would never make me do a thing like that.” “How do you know? He told Abraham to kill his son!” And so it went on and on. It was then that I finally lost any last vestige of the idea so carefully drilled into me for a lifetime that workers are somehow special, holier, and far above the rest of us. This guy was a real jerk! Now twelve years later, he is still in the work, and I have no doubt he would still be mean enough to force some poor young kid worker into doing something contrary to his conscience, just to exercise his holy authority. Even if it meant killing cats. A glorious thing happened a month later. My companion went off to special meetings in Oregon. The Jerk was going back to his companion, so I was going to be put with two other workers until convention time! I had been friends with the younger one for years before we’d ever gone in the work, and the older one was the one who played video games, so I was pretty happy about this change of events. I was made to understand by my companion that I was still very much on trial, and that my new companions would be observing me for my suitability as a worker, and be reporting back to him. I felt sure they would put in a good word for me. As it turned out, the younger one was never consulted, and the other one pretty much had to go along with what the older workers expected him to say. The month was a vast improvement, though hardly great… The rest of Galen's story may be read here on TTT and in the book Reflected Truth: www.tellingthetruth.info/testimonies_stories/berryg.php
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Post by johnvdm on Feb 11, 2011 20:00:02 GMT -5
More things my brother Galen was "taught" by "senior" workers A glorious thing happened a month later. My companion went off to special meetings in Oregon. Galen: We drove your companion to Oregeon.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 13, 2011 10:59:47 GMT -5
Ex Workers: What were you taught to reply if someone asked you about the 2x2 history?
I know the lips of many were closed - due to having to repeat what their Overseer instructed them to say - they had to give out the party line, regardless of what they knew or thought.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 13, 2011 13:55:17 GMT -5
Ex Workers: What were you taught to reply if someone asked you about the 2x2 history? I know the lips of many were closed - due to having to repeat what their Overseer instructed them to say - they had to give out the party line, regardless of what they knew or thought. As in many things, I often felt confused as to what to say. I more or less knew that it had started in Ireland, with "a group of men," though I didn't realize the significance of WI's role. I heard older workers explaining it in different ways, generally trying to establish some "thread" of connection through the centuries. This left me afraid to say much of anything, but it also wasn't a huge issue in my mind. During my first weeks in the work, my companion and I visited Morris and Darla Holt, whom I later realized were at that time "on their way out." I unwittingly missed a significant discussion when I helped with the dishes and then let their grandchildren show me their rabbits out in the back. I just heard the tail end of it, and then my companion told me a bit out in the car. I remember giving some little rationalization, thinking there was just a quick explanation that would help them. Again, it wasn't a significant issue to me (at that time), but that's part of how this kind of teaching can work - representing it as something unimportant, and then depicting the people who are concerned about it as "hung up" on a trivial detail. I feel that these dynamics existed around several important doctrinal issues, leaving me confused as to what I was supposed to be teaching. And it seemed to me that there was always lots of "explaining" to do to make scripture fit. I don't think I consciously saw it that way, or could not admit it to myself at least, but I now look back and recognize this repeated source of stress. I suppose many people would have taken a stronger stand - and some obviously do - but I was a very insecure, frightened person back then, desperate for acceptance and approval. People called it shy. I guess it's these "tensions" - things that don't fit - that eventually lead us to question and to find answers that fit our experience. Thanks for asking . . .
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Post by Christopher J. on Feb 13, 2011 16:36:34 GMT -5
Ex Workers: What were you taught to reply if someone asked you about the 2x2 history? The only thing I can specifically remember being taught on this subject was by Lloyd Wilson who warned me quite definitely that we should never leave the hint or suggestion that there was any kind of unbroken ministry chain stretching "back to the shores of Galilee", because, as he said, "that wasn't the way it happened". And I already knew enough history at that point to know a fair amount about the events of the late 1890s -- probably as much or more than Lloyd did, although, since he had spent a year with George Walker, he probably did know quite a bit. He stressed that the pattern of ministry was a restoration of the biblical pattern, but in no way an uninterrupted continuation.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 13, 2011 16:46:37 GMT -5
Ex Workers: What were you taught to reply if someone asked you about the 2x2 history? The only thing I can specifically remember being taught on this subject was by Lloyd Wilson who warned me quite definitely that we should never leave the hint or suggestion that there was any kind of unbroken ministry chain stretching "back to the shores of Galilee", because, as he said, "that wasn't the way it happened". And I already knew enough history at that point to know a fair amount about the events of the late 1890s -- probably as much or more than Lloyd did, although, since he had spent a year with George Walker, he probably did know quite a bit. He stressed that the pattern of ministry was a restoration of the biblical pattern, but in no way an uninterrupted continuation. That's interesting, John, and thanks for sharing it. I met Lloyd when he visited California - for special meetings I believe - and appreciated his rather unique way of viewing and presenting things. I wish now I could remember more specifics . . .
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 13, 2011 18:32:02 GMT -5
I copied this from a thread on the main board, as it well exemplifies the way in which things can be taught - sometimes even to younger workers. Support for someone's decision is given, and since it's their "territory," a "hands-off" policy is adopted. Then, the assertion that they are "God's servants" is invoked, and there it stops, unless someone is courageous enough to challenge it. This is of course not specifically from my time in the work, but in the work I also heard talk very much like this, and this is how some of the "rules" were learned. From Dale's letter: With Eldon, Ernest and Sydney coming into the province in recent weeks, it remains very evident that the overseers generally are fully supporting Willis and Jim and their oversight in the province.
We could wonder why the support remains so solidly behind Willis and Jim, and it would be possible to advance a number of possible reasons. We know that this stand has been taken after hearing a number of concerns expressed from both workers and friends.
I would just like to encourage you to accept this support that Willis and Jim have at the present time as a reality and to respect that decision because it comes from a group of men whom God has called and whom God is using in guiding his work in this part of the earth. If our attitude towards them becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well.
We realize that the fact that we are servants of God, or even very responsible servants of God, doesn't make us infallible. However, something that is very much a part of being a child of God is to respect those who are over us in the Lord, to pray for them, to obey them, to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Their judgement may not always be right, but it is always right for us to respect that judgement and to work with it in the best way that we possibly can.
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Post by nique on Mar 11, 2011 12:29:15 GMT -5
One of the most memorable things I was taught and incidentally something that gave me great liberty thru out my ministry, was in a conversation with my first overseer. It was at the end of my first or second year and we were chatting. I had had a difficult year and I think he was letting me know that he knew. He told me that our various co-workers will do things or have habits or manners that work and I would perhaps want to follow that example. But there would also be co-workers that do things that dont work and are not for the best and I would not want to follow that example. This particular overseer always reminded me a bit of a mad scientist as his hair was always tousled, and he was wildly disorganized and not at all a good planner, but I was with him at various times during the years at special meetings and visits and he always left me convinced that with all his lack of the expected managerial skills, he was in touch with God. The other remarkable thing that I learned that also gave me liberty is what WL told a young man here in the South. He was going to be teaching a master level class at the University and was much younger then the students taking the class and wanted to grow a beard to make him look older. This was probably 30 years ago or so, and the thought toward beards was different then today. WL told him that if he grew one, he would need compassion to go with it. It took me a long time to understand what he meant, but given that in that day, a man with hair on his face was judged harshly by some, and not trusted by little old ladies in general and was not generally accepted, it became clear. I learned very quickly that the older lady workers in the South could be very critical of us younger ones and to them it was a matter of conviction. It occurred to me that our convictions were very different. I didnt want to conform to their idea of what I should be as I knew I would resent it, but at the same time I did not want to have that spirit that sometimes comes when we resist or refuse to do something. I then would remember WL advice and would try to be respectful of their convictions but hold onto my own. It probably helped that I was 27 when I went into the work and had a mind of my own. Thru the years I had remarks made to me about my dress or my hair and I tried to not react outwardly. I would struggle inside, but tried to not let it show.
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Post by fixit on Jun 18, 2023 0:27:31 GMT -5
More things my brother Galen was "taught" by "senior" workers
After several months, another worker was sent to join us for a while. It was mainly because he couldn’t stand his own companion, which he told me about at great length, even though I kind of enjoyed the elderly gentleman, and would have much preferred him to my own companion. This younger guy was apparently having all kinds of other doubts, conflicts, and traumas about being in the work, which he didn’t talk about. I knew he had them though, because he took it all out on me. If he had wanted to talk about it, or discuss things, that would have been fine; but no, he just wanted to fight. A young worker’s first year in the work is difficult enough without someone deliberately adding to it. Everything you’ve had comfortable and familiar all your life is gone for good, and now nothing at all is permanent, constant, or routine. Every night is in a different home; every meal at a different table; and you have to act cheery and friendly around strangers all day long, whether you feel like it or not. The constant pressure of meetings, sermons, and visits, plus every young worker’s ultimate dread, preaching a funeral, all combines to make this year a thorough nightmare. And now this guy enters the picture, and makes life worse, on purpose. Had he already forgotten what it was like? I should think anyone who had already gone through his first year would do all he could to make it easier on someone else, but he was acting simply hateful. Even though I was two or three years older, he had already been in the work 5 years, and was therefore far above me in the seniority department, and wouldn’t even think of treating me as an equal or even as a friend. This hierarchy of who is the elder worker of any pair or group is measured down to the year, month, and even the week they went into the work. Age has little to do with it. This may sound absurd, but they apparently can’t come up with any better way to do it -- trying to choose the lead worker by means of his maturity or spirituality, rather than by simply how long he has been in the work, would just cause all kinds of trouble and hard feelings. At first, I tried to tell myself it was my fault that he was being so contrary. Maybe he was right about all those little faults he kept picking out in me. But soon, I just told myself (with shock that such could be true of a worker) that the way I was being treated was simply evil. I realized that one day on the way to Sunday morning meeting. There were just the two of us in the car. Usually on the way to meeting, companions are nearly silent, getting their thoughts ready for meeting, and that’s how it should be. But here he was quite deliberately trying to pick a fight, and on the way to meeting yet! He kept throwing out any line he could think of to try to make me say something he could argue about. The part I can remember went like this: A worker at a convention grounds had drowned a litter of kittens because the owner didn’t want the place overrun by cats when convention started. I remarked that I would never be able to do a thing like that. I wouldn’t say anything if someone else was to do it, but I never would do it myself. He asked me:
“What if an older worker told you to do it?” “I don’t think one would ever make me, if I didn’t want to.” “But what if he did?” “I wouldn’t do it.” “You would have to! You vowed to obey in all things.” “That doesn’t apply to killing cats.” “It sure does! You can’t possibly refuse an order from an older worker.” “I would if I thought it was wrong.” “An order from an older worker is like an order from God. You wouldn’t refuse Him, would you?” “God would never make me do a thing like that.” “How do you know? He told Abraham to kill his son!”
And so it went on and on. It was then that I finally lost any last vestige of the idea so carefully drilled into me for a lifetime that workers are somehow special, holier, and far above the rest of us. This guy was a real jerk! Now twelve years later, he is still in the work, and I have no doubt he would still be mean enough to force some poor young kid worker into doing something contrary to his conscience, just to exercise his holy authority. Even if it meant killing cats. A glorious thing happened a month later. My companion went off to special meetings in Oregon. The Jerk was going back to his companion, so I was going to be put with two other workers until convention time! I had been friends with the younger one for years before we’d ever gone in the work, and the older one was the one who played video games, so I was pretty happy about this change of events. I was made to understand by my companion that I was still very much on trial, and that my new companions would be observing me for my suitability as a worker, and be reporting back to him. I felt sure they would put in a good word for me. As it turned out, the younger one was never consulted, and the other one pretty much had to go along with what the older workers expected him to say. The month was a vast improvement, though hardly great… The rest of Galen's story may be read here on TTT and in the book Reflected Truth: www.tellingthetruth.info/testimonies_stories/berryg.php The part in blue is interesting, considering the revelations of the last few months...
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Post by Admin on Aug 25, 2023 16:54:37 GMT -5
I can only think of one DB and certainly didn't think he was difficult.Darwin Bullwinkle? Wonder is the DB mentioned lots in this thread, the one and only Dean Bruer??
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Post by Admin on Aug 25, 2023 17:01:00 GMT -5
Incidentally, we've opened up this board so any worker or ex-worker can post their thoughts and views here, without having to register. Anonymous is OK too.
We'll keep a close eye, and please respect the purpose.
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