Micah
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Post by Micah on Jan 27, 2011 22:07:58 GMT -5
What do we know about verses/teachings that relate to people who may have to kill in the line of duty?
I grew up in a professing home in northern California. Leo Stancliff spent the night plenty of times. When I was 15 I stopped going, and by 16 was living a crazy life. Over time I got a job in construction, got a girlfriend, had some kids, and then married her. I needed a change, so I joined the US Army. Thought it was a way to pay for school and feed the family.
They say there are no atheists in foxholes, and when I enlisted I cared little about religion. After a few months in the Army I started thinking of meetings again. Why was I giving a silent prayer over my MRE? I had talked to members that had been in wars. Even Leo Stancliff told us about the Japanese prison he was in. But back then as a kid I never thought I would be in a war myself. Now I feel like those members who are so conflicted about divorce/remarry because they have a second wife already.
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Post by emy on Jan 28, 2011 14:40:19 GMT -5
What do we know about verses/teachings that relate to people who may have to kill in the line of duty? I grew up in a professing home in northern California. Leo Stancliff spent the night plenty of times. When I was 15 I stopped going, and by 16 was living a crazy life. Over time I got a job in construction, got a girlfriend, had some kids, and then married her. I needed a change, so I joined the US Army. Thought it was a way to pay for school and feed the family. They say there are no atheists in foxholes, and when I enlisted I cared little about religion. After a few months in the Army I started thinking of meetings again. Why was I giving a silent prayer over my MRE? I had talked to members that had been in wars. Even Leo Stancliff told us about the Japanese prison he was in. But back then as a kid I never thought I would be in a war myself. Now I feel like those members who are so conflicted about divorce/remarry because they have a second wife already. I thought someone who knows more about this would reply to you! But here is what I would say: Can you talk to your CO about changing your status - possibly even to conscientious objector, or at least to something less than "front lines"? (no idea if there is different status!) If that is not possible, but you choose to accept the salvation of Jesus, God will judge what you are required to do in carrying out orders. Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Ephesians 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
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Post by ScholarGal on Jan 28, 2011 16:39:26 GMT -5
I suspect this is a topic you will have to study thoroughly and then come to your own conclusions. (Just as people affected by divorce & remarriage have to study that topic.)
You might check with some military chaplains... I'm sure they encounter this question about religion and killing frequently in their jobs.
There are lots of professing people who have served in the military.
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Post by ronhall on Jan 29, 2011 0:15:12 GMT -5
Jesus instructed the soldiers who were part of the occupational army of Rome in Israel to be content with their wages and to do violence to no one.
I was fortunate to have applied and subsequently accepted as a conscientious objector prior to being drafted during the Viet Nam war. At that time this category was only available to those who were drafted. Since there has been no draft, I would expect it is not available.
Good luck and God Bless. Accept my sincere thanks for your personal service to our country.
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Post by ariandgabe on Jan 30, 2011 22:12:08 GMT -5
What do we know about verses/teachings that relate to people who may have to kill in the line of duty? I grew up in a professing home in northern California. Leo Stancliff spent the night plenty of times. When I was 15 I stopped going, and by 16 was living a crazy life. Over time I got a job in construction, got a girlfriend, had some kids, and then married her. I needed a change, so I joined the US Army. Thought it was a way to pay for school and feed the family. They say there are no atheists in foxholes, and when I enlisted I cared little about religion. After a few months in the Army I started thinking of meetings again. Why was I giving a silent prayer over my MRE? I had talked to members that had been in wars. Even Leo Stancliff told us about the Japanese prison he was in. But back then as a kid I never thought I would be in a war myself. Now I feel like those members who are so conflicted about divorce/remarry because they have a second wife already. I thought someone who knows more about this would reply to you! But here is what I would say: Can you talk to your CO about changing your status - possibly even to conscientious objector, or at least to something less than "front lines"? (no idea if there is different status!) If that is not possible, but you choose to accept the salvation of Jesus, God will judge what you are required to do in carrying out orders. Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Ephesians 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; I know it's old, but I ask anyways; "What would Jesus do?"
How would He answer to those Christians living in Rome?
Would He say: "Go and obey Cesar with fear and trembling. Go and wipe out your fellow Believers since you know where they assemble, drag them to the arenas, all of them; men, women and children and let them be fed to the lions. You are now a Roman soldier, so act the part. What you do in your spare time; go to assemblies, pray to God through Me your Redeemer, is different then when you serve your Cesar, give Cesar what's his.." I think not.
Matt 5:38-41 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But now I tell you: do not take revenge on someone who wrongs you. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, let him slap your left cheek too. 40 And if someone takes you to court to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as well. 41 And if one of the occupation troops forces you to carry his pack one mile, carry it two miles. TEV
Matt 5:43-46 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? NKJV
Luke 6:35-36 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. NKJV How about today? Would you serve under Obama who makes fun of the Bible? Saying regarding the Sermon on the Mount; "Our military would never survive its application!" and you hear the croud of so called Christians laughing at his remark?
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 30, 2012 9:32:35 GMT -5
Laurence Vance has a lot of good resources on the subject of Christians in the military. Look him up.
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Micah
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Post by Micah on Jun 13, 2013 0:47:46 GMT -5
So, two years later, I found my way back to this forum. I'm about to take leave to go home for the first time in three years, and find myself thinking about seeing my parents and going to a Sunday morning meeting for the first time in 10 years.
I've met two other born and raised guys from northern California who also joined after 9/11. Marines, Navy, and myself in the Army. All just from Siskiyou county!
After reading the above posts I felt a little disheartened. Laurence Vance was no help. The guy has never raised his right hand and has little idea about being a Soldier. Sorry. If you don't like the current foreign policy express your unhappy thoughts to your senator and representative or use the ballot. Don't slander and attack young people doing their job. Much of what he writes reminded me of the Westburo Baptist's prejudice (Yes, I've had to deal with them while on funeral detail).
For example my humble testimony: "35 But love your enemies..." It's quite easy for me to feel compassion for my "enemy." I've got to know a few. They are not that different from myself from a certain perspective. They grew up in a rural farm community, no TV and little media. Their sisters had a restrictive dress code (no makeup,pants,jewelry; vs hijab). A community elder was the moral backbone. From a young age they learn about how sinful the world is becoming. Someone from outside their community convinced them to join the fight and leave home. And now they question their faith, and must learn how to personally define their beliefs without the elder present.
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Post by snow on Jun 13, 2013 10:47:39 GMT -5
So, two years later, I found my way back to this forum. I'm about to take leave to go home for the first time in three years, and find myself thinking about seeing my parents and going to a Sunday morning meeting for the first time in 10 years. I've met two other born and raised guys from northern California who also joined after 9/11. Marines, Navy, and myself in the Army. All just from Siskiyou county! After reading the above posts I felt a little disheartened. Laurence Vance was no help. The guy has never raised his right hand and has little idea about being a Soldier. Sorry. If you don't like the current foreign policy express your unhappy thoughts to your senator and representative or use the ballot. Don't slander and attack young people doing their job. Much of what he writes reminded me of the Westburo Baptist's prejudice (Yes, I've had to deal with them while on funeral detail). For example my humble testimony: "35 But love your enemies..." It's quite easy for me to feel compassion for my "enemy." I've got to know a few. They are not that different from myself from a certain perspective. They grew up in a rural farm community, no TV and little media. Their sisters had a restrictive dress code (no makeup,pants,jewelry; vs hijab). A community elder was the moral backbone. From a young age they learn about how sinful the world is becoming. Someone from outside their community convinced them to join the fight and leave home. And now they question their faith, and must learn how to personally define their beliefs without the elder present. My thoughts are this. Trust that 'your' God understands. I agree, the 'enemy' is not that different from us. We all want the same things. We have just been raised to go about getting those things in different ways sometimes. I always liked the story about Christmas during WWI where both sides quit fighting for a day and became comrades. I think it is the soldiers that understand this concept the best. They know the 'other guy' is very much like themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 16:55:42 GMT -5
For myself, Cornelius the Centurion is as good an example of someone serving God and at the same time serving their country whilst on active military service.
Remember it was through Cornelius that the door of salvation was opened to the Gentiles.
Cornelius was a commander within the Roman Army, an occupying force in a foreign land subjugating the domestic population. As a Centurion he had to have proved his worth in battle before making that rank. It was his job to put down any troubles, by force if necessary. There were no CO's back in those days. Soldiers by and large had to prove their bravery, especially in battle.
Cornelius's attitude towards the Jews was highly commendable. He even accepted Jesus before the door was swung open to the Gentiles AND was responsible for not only those of his household accepting Jesus, but also members of his command under him.
Any person serving in the military or law enforcement services, only has to look to Cornelius for guidance. He had a good report from everyone, especially the Jews whom he was to keep under control. I have no doubt that if Cornelius was called upon to go to war after he had accepted Christ, then he would have done so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2013 13:46:39 GMT -5
If asked, and not as someone inexperienced in these matters, I would simply point to my Lord who said what they WOULD do if they were of this world. He said if they WERE of this world, then they WOULD fight. Is the army you serve in of the Lord, or this world? Simple answer, isn't it. There are people of all sorts giving you advice, often from such people who are not, have not been, and likely never will be in that such as you find yourself.
So, from me who has been in combat, underfire also from drug runners of my own country, my advice is simply this: Try to do no violence to any man, and be content with your wages as dismal as they may or may not be. Trust your God to lead you in the path of righteousness, and I am sure HE will... And do not be drug down by any cowardly act even when presented in the name of being like our LORD and God. Do all you can to let HIS wisdom lead you with you training, and escape worry about what others think. Trust your own conscience in these matters as you trust the leading of your Lord and God in each moment of sworn duty. If you are "condemned" by that duty, flee it as soon as you can. May grace and mercy follow you in all you do...and thank you, soldier.
For myself, Cornelius the Centurion is as good an example of someone serving God and at the same time serving their country whilst on active military service. Remember it was through Cornelius that the door of salvation was opened to the Gentiles. Cornelius was a commander within the Roman Army, an occupying force in a foreign land subjugating the domestic population. As a Centurion he had to have proved his worth in battle before making that rank. It was his job to put down any troubles, by force if necessary. There were no CO's back in those days. Soldiers by and large had to prove their bravery, especially in battle. Cornelius's attitude towards the Jews was highly commendable. He even accepted Jesus before the door was swung open to the Gentiles AND was responsible for not only those of his household accepting Jesus, but also members of his command under him. Any person serving in the military or law enforcement services, only has to look to Cornelius for guidance. He had a good report from everyone, especially the Jews whom he was to keep under control. I have no doubt that if Cornelius was called upon to go to war after he had accepted Christ, then he would have done so.
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Post by thenorthwindsblow on Aug 25, 2015 2:24:27 GMT -5
I am posting some thoughts on here a bit late. I am a university professor and filled in up in North Dakota last fall and got behind. At any rate, I have had some experience with this topic myself, and thought I would share. The former owner of one of the convention grounds in Ohio was an state trooper in Ohio. And professed all that time I believe. As a university professor I taught in Mississippi fir a time. I met a man in the truth at convention in Alabama. He was a,United States Marshal. There is one of the friends in Wisconsin who is a Town Marshal there. I was myself a Reserve Deputy Sheriff, while also being an officer with the US Army Reserve. Because of professing,I asked a worker, Murray Keen, about both of these positions before involving myself in them. He said it was not a problem if the positions required me to carry a gun, and he gave me his blessing to proceed. In about 1988, som we one passed away in Virginia Beach, and I attended his funeral. I met a young man who was serving in the Navy there. THIS young man was on active duty aboard a ship, the U S S Wisconsin, and was professing. HE TOO HAD GOTTEN THE WORKERS BLESSINGS TO JOIN THE Navy and serve his country. He fave my famiky a tour of his ship.
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Subverting from within!
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Post by Subverting from within! on Sept 17, 2015 0:30:28 GMT -5
I don't understand the question because I don't understand the reasoning. I am not trying to be obtuse because I understand why you are asking the question; somewhere and at some time you were led to believe that certain careers are okay and others are not. What needs to be questioned is the reasoning behind such logic. The correct statement of the 6th commandment in Hebrew is; You shall not Murder. That is something completely different than a KJV interpretation. There are people who are Christians and people who are bibleologists. The 2 are not the same! Just to make clear, I am not looking at the OT law as justification or guidance for modern living but rather as a point of reference. IMO, to many people seem really uncomfortable with the lack of laws and regulations by Jesus in the NT and try to create some blend of new and old which was immediately became a problem amongst the first Christians! I like the mention of Cornelius in this thread, did Peter tell him to quit being a soldier? No. I don't think he told him to do anything. So let's speculate regarding Cornelius and his career. It is inferred that he was a good person and in the encounter with Peter the Holy Spirit comes upon him and he is baptized. So now Cornelius has both the direction of the officers above him in rank in his day job and the guidance of the spirit in how he will conduct himself in life. I think it would be safe to say that C. Was a career soldier and I hesitate to say that he either quit or stayed but what I do want to believe is that he stayed on as a soldier, lived as up rightly as possible and touched a few people's lives in a positive manner because he was guided by the Holy Spirit. I think to often people don't follow a life/career path that is a personal calling because of some hang up regarding what is okay or not okay by some phony baloney misguided advice. What if there were (more) (real in deed and not for purpose of constituency) Christians in hollywood or government or sports or nascar or DOD in your case or wherever? People that followed both their passion and lived their conviction? Would their influence touch people for the betterment of all? I had more but my mind runs blank now. Good luck in working this out for yourself, just because this may or may not be right or wrong for you doesn't mean it's the same for someone else. I firmly believe you can and will be lead where God chooses if you remain open to such.
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Micah
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Post by Micah on Oct 7, 2016 4:44:59 GMT -5
I kept off this forum since the last post as I had left a little disappointed. I came back looking for information on a childhood friend in another thread and noticed there were responses to this thread. Those of you that have contributed, especially the two service members, thank you :-)
It took a while, but I became humble with my calling in life. I rarely go out on patrol or have to pull guard duty. Instead I repair the weapons for my battalion, as no one else in the battalion can repair them as fast or as well as I can.
And I have become content with my wages (Once I factor in retirement and medical benefits, plus tax breaks). If someone is thinking of enlisting and would like a breakdown by the numbers send me a personal message. Very few jobs will pay a high school drop out this well, or let them retire in 20 years.
However, I don't think I'm content with where I live. I'm soo ready to move back to the west coast. In about 12 hours hurricane mathew should hit my house :-(
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Post by Grant on Oct 7, 2016 4:57:49 GMT -5
Great post. Thank you. The hurricane Matthew part does not sound good tho. Keep dry, keep safe and keep in touch.
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Post by vanillagorilla on Oct 7, 2016 10:23:23 GMT -5
Micah good to hear from you. I wasn't on the forum when this originally posted. Best of luck to you with the hurricane. I hope you stay safe. I don't know if you have had to go downrange or not. But I know from being one of the first in Iraq in early 2003 that if your unit is attacked, to not fight back will cost lives of your brothers and sisters. Is it a horrible dilemma? Yes, but it's horrible for all in that position. It doesn't seem quite as bad at the time, but years later the affects will hit. Garrison life does not pose those issues, so we are lucky in that respect. In my experience I prayed daily for God's will and ended up doing stuff that was very far from morally comfortable. Luckily there is free counseling from the Veteran's Center. Thanks for serving and hope to hear from you soon.
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muse2
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Post by muse2 on Apr 8, 2019 0:43:22 GMT -5
I often wondered why this subject was never mentioned during the 30 years I professed. After leaving meetings, I dug into the commandments of Jesus for myself and found many other teaching which were never taught. I would like to share a personal insight on this particular subject. People can take it or leave it.
Basically it is this. When Jesus said, "he that hath a purse", He was referring to Judas. He had just left the last supper and took the bag with him. Jesus was advising the remaining 11 to let him keep it. However, Jesus would no longer provide or protect him. Therefore Judas and those like him would need to fend for themselves and would be wise to buy a sword. Traitors always have to watch their back.
So what Jesus told Peter holds true. Followers of Jesus do not need weapons. They have something better. They have their Father in heaven and legions of angels. Furthermore, those who do take up a sword against their fellowman will one day perish/be condemned by the two edged sword of Jesus. You can read about this in Revelation 19.
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Post by jetmech on Nov 15, 2019 13:46:18 GMT -5
What do we know about verses/teachings that relate to people who may have to kill in the line of duty? I grew up in a professing home in northern California. Leo Stancliff spent the night plenty of times. When I was 15 I stopped going, and by 16 was living a crazy life. Over time I got a job in construction, got a girlfriend, had some kids, and then married her. I needed a change, so I joined the US Army. Thought it was a way to pay for school and feed the family. They say there are no atheists in foxholes, and when I enlisted I cared little about religion. After a few months in the Army I started thinking of meetings again. Why was I giving a silent prayer over my MRE? I had talked to members that had been in wars. Even Leo Stancliff told us about the Japanese prison he was in. But back then as a kid I never thought I would be in a war myself. Now I feel like those members who are so conflicted about divorce/remarry because they have a second wife already. I grew up in the truth. When I enlisted in the army I enlisted as a Military Policeman. I trained to go to Vietnam and I carried an M60 machine gun, M-16 rifle. a colt .45 pistol in a waist holster, as well as a law (mini bazooka), and was trained to throw hand grenades. Luckily, my orders to go to Vietnam were cancelled and I didn't have to go, because Military Police lead the soldiers into the battle zones and are often the first ones killed. All through the army I felt guilty for being trained to kill enemy soldiers. I felt guilty for having a .45 pistol in a holster belted to my waist. I had a guy pull a knife on me once in the darkness of night and I was justified to shoot him. Standing there I remembered some words from the Bible quoted by workers in meetings ... " ... a soft answer turneth away wrath ..." The man with the knife was drunk ... I never put my hand close to the pistol. I talked softly and slowly, put my hand on his shoulder and told him he was not yet in trouble. I told him " ... you are not being arrested ..." and " ... you will be allowed to leave, freely, if you simply fold the knife up and hand it to me ... you will not be harmed and you will still be a free man ..." I told him " ... I am fully justified to shoot you right here and now, but as you can see I don't even have my hand on my weapon ..." The man finally, folded up the knife and handed it to me. I let him go. After the army I got a job as a Dispatcer working for the INDIANA STATE POLICE. (I was too young to be a State Trooper). I was a licensed private pilot, and my goal was to eventually become a State Trooper and fly helicopters for the INDIANA STATE POLICE. I rode with a uniformed State Trooper to get a physical exam at a doctor's office in Indianapolis, IN. At the doctor's office we happened into one of the friends who had known me since I was a child. I had on a uniform exactly like the State Trooper had on, except I had no gun nor State Trooper Badge. My Badge said "Dispatcher." The man in the truth was the father of a worker named Glen Watkins. I don't recall his first name. I had been friends with Glen as a child. Mr Watkins reminded me that police work is not for a professing man, and that I would NEVER find the justification for carrying a gun. I felt kind of guilty ... and "bad." The State Trooper I had rode with Quoted to me the biblical words " ... blessed are the keepers of peace ..." He told me " ... the keepers of the peace are the police ..." " ... if you had no police you'd have complete anarchy ..!" Years later I was working for AIR WISCONSIN AIRLINES. I went to meeting. I met some of the friends. I went fishing with a man who had spent his entire life in the truth. We were sitting in his boat fishing. He offered me a beer. I just could not believe it! I drank a beer with him. He told me of a professing man who was a Detective for the Appleton Police Department in Appleton. WI. (Home of Harry Houdini). He told me about another professing man in the truth who is a State Trooper. (I don't recall which state). My twin brother was a college professor in Arkansas and Mississippi. He knew two professing men who were police officers. Here I gave up my chances of being an INDIANA STATE TROOPER. I was already in the system working as a dispatcher. When I resigned from the ISP the Post Commander tried and tried to talk me into staying. He said they already had State Trooper uniforms waiting for me and a brand new State Trooper car. My twin brother and I were going to be the first identical twins who had ever been INDIANA STATE POLICE TROOPERS. Since then, another set of identical twins got that honor. It was not easy to resist. There really ARE professing, gun-carrying, police Officers out there, and I could have been too. I've heard there are a couple of professing men who are FBI agents as well. If I had the choice again ... I would not think twice about it ... I would have gone to the State Police Academy at Indiana University and would now be retiring as a State Trooper.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 14:38:06 GMT -5
What do we know about verses/teachings that relate to people who may have to kill in the line of duty? I grew up in a professing home in northern California. Leo Stancliff spent the night plenty of times. When I was 15 I stopped going, and by 16 was living a crazy life. Over time I got a job in construction, got a girlfriend, had some kids, and then married her. I needed a change, so I joined the US Army. Thought it was a way to pay for school and feed the family. They say there are no atheists in foxholes, and when I enlisted I cared little about religion. After a few months in the Army I started thinking of meetings again. Why was I giving a silent prayer over my MRE? I had talked to members that had been in wars. Even Leo Stancliff told us about the Japanese prison he was in. But back then as a kid I never thought I would be in a war myself. Now I feel like those members who are so conflicted about divorce/remarry because they have a second wife already. I grew up in the truth. When I enlisted in the army I enlisted as a Military Policeman. I trained to go to Vietnam and I carried an M60 machine gun, M-16 rifle. a colt .45 pistol in a waist holster, as well as a law (mini bazooka), and was trained to throw hand grenades. Luckily, my orders to go to Vietnam were cancelled and I didn't have to go, because Military Police lead the soldiers into the battle zones and are often the first ones killed. All through the army I felt guilty for being trained to kill enemy soldiers. I felt guilty for having a .45 pistol in a holster belted to my waist. I had a guy pull a knife on me once in the darkness of night and I was justified to shoot him. Standing there I remembered some words from the Bible quoted by workers in meetings ... " ... a soft answer turneth away wrath ..." The man with the knife was drunk ... I never put my hand close to the pistol. I talked softly and slowly, put my hand on his shoulder and told him he was not yet in trouble. I told him " ... you are not being arrested ..." and " ... you will be allowed to leave, freely, if you simply fold the knife up and hand it to me ... you will not be harmed and you will still be a free man ..." I told him " ... I am fully justified to shoot you right here and now, but as you can see I don't even have my hand on my weapon ..." The man finally, folded up the knife and handed it to me. I let him go. After the army I got a job as a Dispatcer working for the INDIANA STATE POLICE. (I was too young to be a State Trooper). I was a licensed private pilot, and my goal was to eventually become a State Trooper and fly helicopters for the INDIANA STATE POLICE. I rode with a uniformed State Trooper to get a physical exam at a doctor's office in Indianapolis, IN. At the doctor's office we happened into one of the friends who had known me since I was a child. I had on a uniform exactly like the State Trooper had on, except I had no gun nor State Trooper Badge. My Badge said "Dispatcher." The man in the truth was the father of a worker named Glen Watkins. I don't recall his first name. I had been friends with Glen as a child. Mr Watkins reminded me that police work is not for a professing man, and that I would NEVER find the justification for carrying a gun. I felt kind of guilty ... and "bad." The State Trooper I had rode with Quoted to me the biblical words " ... blessed are the keepers of peace ..." He told me " ... the keepers of the peace are the police ..." " ... if you had no police you'd have complete anarchy ..!" Years later I was working for AIR WISCONSIN AIRLINES. I went to meeting. I met some of the friends. I went fishing with a man who had spent his entire life in the truth. We were sitting in his boat fishing. He offered me a beer. I just could not believe it! I drank a beer with him. He told me of a professing man who was a Detective for the Appleton Police Department in Appleton. WI. (Home of Harry Houdini). He told me about another professing man in the truth who is a State Trooper. (I don't recall which state). My twin brother was a college professor in Arkansas and Mississippi. He knew two professing men who were police officers. Here I gave up my chances of being an INDIANA STATE TROOPER. I was already in the system working as a dispatcher. When I resigned from the ISP the Post Commander tried and tried to talk me into staying. He said they already had State Trooper uniforms waiting for me and a brand new State Trooper car. My twin brother and I were going to be the first identical twins who had ever been INDIANA STATE POLICE TROOPERS. Since then, another set of identical twins got that honor. It was not easy to resist. There really ARE professing, gun-carrying, police Officers out there, and I could have been too. I've heard there are a couple of professing men who are FBI agents as well. If I had the choice again ... I would not think twice about it ... I would have gone to the State Police Academy at Indiana University and would now be retiring as a State Trooper. thansk for your service and yes i have known a professing person who was a police officer they had no problem with it...
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Post by mountain on Nov 15, 2019 16:18:32 GMT -5
I grew up in the truth. When I enlisted in the army I enlisted as a Military Policeman. I trained to go to Vietnam and I carried an M60 machine gun, M-16 rifle. a colt .45 pistol in a waist holster, as well as a law (mini bazooka), and was trained to throw hand grenades. Luckily, my orders to go to Vietnam were cancelled and I didn't have to go, because Military Police lead the soldiers into the battle zones and are often the first ones killed. All through the army I felt guilty for being trained to kill enemy soldiers. I felt guilty for having a .45 pistol in a holster belted to my waist. I had a guy pull a knife on me once in the darkness of night and I was justified to shoot him. Standing there I remembered some words from the Bible quoted by workers in meetings ... " ... a soft answer turneth away wrath ..." The man with the knife was drunk ... I never put my hand close to the pistol. I talked softly and slowly, put my hand on his shoulder and told him he was not yet in trouble. I told him " ... you are not being arrested ..." and " ... you will be allowed to leave, freely, if you simply fold the knife up and hand it to me ... you will not be harmed and you will still be a free man ..." I told him " ... I am fully justified to shoot you right here and now, but as you can see I don't even have my hand on my weapon ..." The man finally, folded up the knife and handed it to me. I let him go. After the army I got a job as a Dispatcer working for the INDIANA STATE POLICE. (I was too young to be a State Trooper). I was a licensed private pilot, and my goal was to eventually become a State Trooper and fly helicopters for the INDIANA STATE POLICE. I rode with a uniformed State Trooper to get a physical exam at a doctor's office in Indianapolis, IN. At the doctor's office we happened into one of the friends who had known me since I was a child. I had on a uniform exactly like the State Trooper had on, except I had no gun nor State Trooper Badge. My Badge said "Dispatcher." The man in the truth was the father of a worker named Glen Watkins. I don't recall his first name. I had been friends with Glen as a child. Mr Watkins reminded me that police work is not for a professing man, and that I would NEVER find the justification for carrying a gun. I felt kind of guilty ... and "bad." The State Trooper I had rode with Quoted to me the biblical words " ... blessed are the keepers of peace ..." He told me " ... the keepers of the peace are the police ..." " ... if you had no police you'd have complete anarchy ..!" Years later I was working for AIR WISCONSIN AIRLINES. I went to meeting. I met some of the friends. I went fishing with a man who had spent his entire life in the truth. We were sitting in his boat fishing. He offered me a beer. I just could not believe it! I drank a beer with him. He told me of a professing man who was a Detective for the Appleton Police Department in Appleton. WI. (Home of Harry Houdini). He told me about another professing man in the truth who is a State Trooper. (I don't recall which state). My twin brother was a college professor in Arkansas and Mississippi. He knew two professing men who were police officers. Here I gave up my chances of being an INDIANA STATE TROOPER. I was already in the system working as a dispatcher. When I resigned from the ISP the Post Commander tried and tried to talk me into staying. He said they already had State Trooper uniforms waiting for me and a brand new State Trooper car. My twin brother and I were going to be the first identical twins who had ever been INDIANA STATE POLICE TROOPERS. Since then, another set of identical twins got that honor. It was not easy to resist. There really ARE professing, gun-carrying, police Officers out there, and I could have been too. I've heard there are a couple of professing men who are FBI agents as well. If I had the choice again ... I would not think twice about it ... I would have gone to the State Police Academy at Indiana University and would now be retiring as a State Trooper. thansk for your service and yes i have known a professing person who was a police officer they had no problem with it... I was a professing police officer for many years and had many problems with it, but they were all in my head due to the professing culture. However, God kept me through it all, despite many, many prayers to be relieved of it. No other suitable job came up. After reading about Cornelius in Acts 10 and the important role this Roman commander played in opening the door to the Gentiles, I realised that I was exactly where God wanted me to be (unfortunately). He wants us to be his light where all around is dark. It's not easy, but his grace is sufficient and his mercy caters for all. Of course where I lived, police officers are by and large not armed with guns, though we did have batons. My advice. Don't listen to those who lack the experience and think they know better.
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Post by Dennis J on Nov 15, 2019 18:53:05 GMT -5
Believe it was in these threads which I mentioned once before my Lord’s comment, “If my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight.” It was completely ignored. Holds true today, seems to me like. While I have worn the law enforcement uniform of the U.S.A. I was not required to wear a weapon, so I did not chose to do so, ever to use as enforcement.
It is a highly divided issue. I certainly fault none who chose to carry a weapon, just as I do not fault any serving their fellow man without the use of one. It is my personal conviction the matter is best left to personal conviction. None are better than their fellow man in that choice.
According to what I have read and perceive from Bible teachings, when the Lord returns, He WILL come with His own, bringing eternal judgment. And with vast numbers. ‘Spose they will be armed? Were those angels “armed?” Those Who came sent by the Lord to administer His righteousness and judgment upon we humans? If it is my purpose to be of that number the Lord brings with him to execute judgment upon those remaining alive who have erred exceedingly...well...
May each one humble themselves fitting in with our Lord’s expectations. May it be according to His Everlasting purpose and Will!
Dennis J
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 15, 2019 19:03:28 GMT -5
Or maybe just point the "ZAP" finger at the miscreant.
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Post by Annan on Nov 15, 2019 19:09:41 GMT -5
Or maybe just point the "ZAP" finger at the miscreant. Works for me. *cackle*
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Post by Dennis J on Nov 15, 2019 19:15:08 GMT -5
Or maybe just point the "ZAP" finger at the miscreant. ‘Spose .?... Maybe, not so sure...glad it will NOT be of MY human judgment/decision, anyway!
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Post by iam on Feb 18, 2020 8:03:25 GMT -5
So, two years later, I found my way back to this forum. I'm about to take leave to go home for the first time in three years, and find myself thinking about seeing my parents and going to a Sunday morning meeting for the first time in 10 years. I've met two other born and raised guys from northern California who also joined after 9/11. Marines, Navy, and myself in the Army. All just from Siskiyou county! After reading the above posts I felt a little disheartened. Laurence Vance was no help. The guy has never raised his right hand and has little idea about being a Soldier. Sorry. If you don't like the current foreign policy express your unhappy thoughts to your senator and representative or use the ballot. Don't slander and attack young people doing their job. Much of what he writes reminded me of the Westburo Baptist's prejudice (Yes, I've had to deal with them while on funeral detail). For example my humble testimony: "35 But love your enemies..." It's quite easy for me to feel compassion for my "enemy." I've got to know a few. They are not that different from myself from a certain perspective. They grew up in a rural farm community, no TV and little media. Their sisters had a restrictive dress code (no makeup,pants,jewelry; vs hijab). A community elder was the moral backbone. From a young age they learn about how sinful the world is becoming. Someone from outside their community convinced them to join the fight and leave home. And now they question their faith, and must learn how to personally define their beliefs without the elder present. THOSE are your ENEMIES?? Not such a humble testimony.
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Post by iam on Feb 18, 2020 8:33:49 GMT -5
Believe it was in these threads which I mentioned once before my Lord’s comment, “If my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight.” It was completely ignored. Holds true today, seems to me like. While I have worn the law enforcement uniform of the U.S.A. I was not required to wear a weapon, so I did not chose to do so, ever to use as enforcement.
It is a highly divided issue. I certainly fault none who chose to carry a weapon, just as I do not fault any serving their fellow man without the use of one. It is my personal conviction the matter is best left to personal conviction. None are better than their fellow man in that choice.
According to what I have read and perceive from Bible teachings, when the Lord returns, He WILL come with His own, bringing eternal judgment. And with vast numbers. ‘Spose they will be armed? Were those angels “armed?” Those Who came sent by the Lord to administer His righteousness and judgment upon we humans? If it is my purpose to be of that number the Lord brings with him to execute judgment upon those remaining alive who have erred exceedingly...well...
May each one humble themselves fitting in with our Lord’s expectations. May it be according to His Everlasting purpose and Will!
Dennis J
Regarding "those who have erred exceedingly"...those were the friends that Jesus was a friend to that the friends of His day despised the most.
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Micah
New Member
Posts: 14
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Post by Micah on Feb 19, 2020 1:24:53 GMT -5
For example my humble testimony: "35 But love your enemies..." It's quite easy for me to feel compassion for my "enemy." I've got to know a few. They are not that different from myself from a certain perspective. They grew up in a rural farm community, no TV and little media. Their sisters had a restrictive dress code (no makeup,pants,jewelry; vs hijab). A community elder was the moral backbone. From a young age they learn about how sinful the world is becoming. Someone from outside their community convinced them to join the fight and leave home. And now they question their faith, and must learn how to personally define their beliefs without the elder present. THOSE are your ENEMIES?? Not such a humble testimony. For context, when a Soldier says "Enemies", they are often describing the statistical adversary they might face. Statistically in 2013 when I wrote that post the current people who the US Army got into firefights with were young Muslim males from rural areas of Afghanistan. That was before ISIL kicked off and the demographics changed. Testimony was probably the wrong word to use. However, my statement still holds true. The moral conflicts faced by myself are similar to the ones faced by young Muslim Soldiers on the other side of the world. There are different interpretations of the Quran (Halfs vs Warsh), just like there are different interpretations of the Bible (KJV/Tyndale vs Roman Catholic). In case you're unfamiliar, Islam also has the Ten Commandments and the five books of Moses (Tawrat) as well. Last week my mother flew in to help with the birth of my fourth child, and at the Wednesday meeting she found two more Soldiers stationed at Fort Bliss, and possibly I'll be able to reach out and talk with them at some point. Also, while not Professing, I talked with a poor kid who grew up Jehovah's Witness and got disowned by his family for enlisting, and was dealing with some of the same moral issues I did. I'm not sure that was chance. The odds of us meeting in the middle of the New Mexico desert on a field operation in the middle of the night, and being able to talk for hours? Although, after the mall/walmart shooting here in El Paso last year, I think statistically I'm more likely to be faced with shooting someone while concealed carrying then while in uniform. I should be thankful my wife decided to not go shopping that day. However, Professing and concealed carry or self defense is I feel another topic, and I believe there are other discussion threads on this forum that address it.
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Post by iam on Feb 19, 2020 2:42:07 GMT -5
THOSE are your ENEMIES?? Not such a humble testimony. For context, when a Soldier says "Enemies", they are often describing the statistical adversary they might face. Statistically in 2013 when I wrote that post the current people who the US Army got into firefights with were young Muslim males from rural areas of Afghanistan. That was before ISIL kicked off and the demographics changed. Testimony was probably the wrong word to use. However, my statement still holds true. The moral conflicts faced by myself are similar to the ones faced by young Muslim Soldiers on the other side of the world. There are different interpretations of the Quran (Halfs vs Warsh), just like there are different interpretations of the Bible (KJV/Tyndale vs Roman Catholic). In case you're unfamiliar, Islam also has the Ten Commandments and the five books of Moses (Tawrat) as well. Last week my mother flew in to help with the birth of my fourth child, and at the Wednesday meeting she found two more Soldiers stationed at Fort Bliss, and possibly I'll be able to reach out and talk with them at some point. Also, while not Professing, I talked with a poor kid who grew up Jehovah's Witness and got disowned by his family for enlisting, and was dealing with some of the same moral issues I did. I'm not sure that was chance. The odds of us meeting in the middle of the New Mexico desert on a field operation in the middle of the night, and being able to talk for hours? Although, after the mall/walmart shooting here in El Paso last year, I think statistically I'm more likely to be faced with shooting someone while concealed carrying then while in uniform. I should be thankful my wife decided to not go shopping that day. However, Professing and concealed carry or self defense is I feel another topic, and I believe there are other discussion threads on this forum that address it. No weapons for me, if someone shoots me that's on them, not me. It's probably not the worse way to go, often. Instant get of jail free card, as I heard someone else say.
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muse2
New Member
Posts: 27
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Post by muse2 on Nov 7, 2020 12:59:12 GMT -5
After 40 years of church/meeting attendance, I came to realize I had not been taught what Jesus taught on several subjects. This subject of bearing arms was one of them. So I did a lot of digging/searching for the truth on my own. This is what I learned from the bible.
1. Being good to the enemy is solid truth. Jesus likened it to building your house on a rock. 2. When being attacked Jesus did not defend himself. He commanded Peter to put up his sword. Hence, self-defense is not a justification for doing harm to another. 3. God-fearing people are not defenseless, we have powers in heaven which are greater than any man-made weapons. Jesus said he could have prayed for legions of angels. 4. When Jesus spoke of the one with the purse needing to buy a sword, he was indirectly referring to Judas and those like Judas. It was not a commandment given to the remaining 11 to buy themselves swords. 5. When Jesus said all who take up a sword will perish by one (he was referring to the two-edged sword that He himself would use to condemn the violent along with other ungodly souls). See Revelation 19:15-21.
To believe the words of Jesus requires faith, does it not?
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