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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2010 3:05:00 GMT -5
Rational this is my last exchange with you. I apologise to Stargazer for my part in disrupting his thread.
So now you are questioning the "whole" world about the way they address CSA? Virtually ALL have got it wrong and you have got it right, eh? All are irrational except you?
Groups and organisations should not design procedures and programmes commensurate with their activities. We are all one big anti-CSA family. After all we are all just people.
Churches, clubs, youth centres, Governments, care centres, schools, nurseries; in fact every uncle Tom Cobley and all who works with children has got it wrong.
Yet, deeply entrenched in the data you provided to support your education by instruction only methods, comes from one such group; nursing carers, who make no bones about pointing out just how difficult it can be in many cases to "educate" parents and children in these matters.
You ask, "someone needs to ask questions?" Is this your way of saying "everyone should be listening to you?" It seems quite obvious that many people are indeed asking questions AND taking appropriate action.
I am at a loss just where you get the idea that I support the notion of first reporting abuse to members of the religion and only afterwards to the authorities? You must be living in cloud cuckoo land? Where you trawled this perceived opinion of mine from I haven't a clue?
Yes hopefully my energies will be redirected. Oh yes, and of course questions will be asked. Pease provide us with appropriate contact details so that we can run them past you for approval.
If I am upset with you, it is through the frustration I feel at having wasted so much of my time and energy in getting involved in wrestling against so much "intellectual stupidity"
The reason I am not interested in what you accept is because your acceptance is not my goal. There are far more serious considerations here. What "you" accept and project is often very odd to say the least.
With regards to your CoE remarks. You clearly asked "Why are the religious people involved in this at all? Is it a religious matter?" This was in response to my suggesting that the F&W'S church should be treated the same way as other churches such as the CoE.
You keep moving the goalposts to suit your own agenda.
I will conclude our discussions by thanking you for my "education."
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Post by sharonw on Oct 4, 2010 6:52:03 GMT -5
Ram, I've noticed Rational will engage at length some people...I've had my suspicions as to why that is beyond the conversation at hand. As you say, he seems to think he's the only one who thinks rationally...but I suspect IF he were in the proper shoes at a certain time or event, his rationality would desert him.
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Post by rational on Oct 4, 2010 9:25:26 GMT -5
Rational this is my last exchange with you. I apologise to Stargazer for my part in disrupting his thread. OK Not all but many. Look at the mess just in the little group of the F&W. And the latest information you send where the procedure was (still) to keep the reports of abuse first within the church and only later go to the authorities. Is this a procedure you support? Of course groups should have procedures. And the very first rule should be "REPORT IT TO THE AUTHORITIES". It should not be 6 out of 6. You asked if I thought the F&W should adopt the procedures of the CoE. I said "No" and stated why. And you still don't grasp that not reporting first to the people who deal with these issues is a problem. If they, like the CoE you asked about, report it first internally, yes. Even the state police person who posted to these forums indicated the need to report first to the authorities. Actually I posted the information from two groups but if you want I could post many more. And I certainly can post many references who speak against groups internally attempting to manage this. No one said it was not difficult. You, on the other hand, posted nothing to support your contention. Just your suspicions. Frankly, I would give more weight to the nurses who are working with the victims than to your suspicions. No one has to listen to me. I even help the administrator to install the IGNORE feature. The F&W finally are taking action. The message is "Report it to the authorities first". The information you posted advocated reporting it to the church members first. But you don't question that procedure. You don't question the fact that people are so hung up talking about this issue that they cannot properly educate their children. I posted several studies that stressed the need for specific information rather than vague innuendos. But the document from the CoE never mentioned that yet you seem surprised when I said I could not support it. That was what the publication you posted stated. I quoted the parts. You asked if I thought that could be applied to the F&W. I stated why I thought it was wrong.Because it was what the publication you were advocating said. Did you even read it? Sarcasm noted. Perhaps all of us do not have your intellectual capacity. Oh yes, very odd. Treat the workers as humans, not people with a special office. Educate your children. Educate parents on how to protect their children from all possible criminals. Make sure there are not people who are placed in a special class who are treated differently when it comes to CAS. Much better to simply remove one small group from one small opportunity to give the illusion of safety. Exactly. Why is the CoE advocating that cases of sexual abuse be first reported to them? Why are they involved in the process of deciding whether a report should be made? Why are they suggesting they should be the ones to go to the media? Why would you want the F&W treated in this way when this is how things got the way they are? These are not religious issues. Why would I want them treated as such? Sorry. My message has been the same. Report crimes first to the authorities that handle them. Treat the workers just like every other person who stays in your home. Educate the parents to the dangers and instill the fact that it is their responsibility to protect their children. Educate the parents as to what they need to make sure their children know. Educate the children as early as possible. It is not an easy task, as the nurses in the group stated. The level of sexual education has been reduced so much in public schools (at least in the US) that it is useless. You cannot expect people to teach what they do not know or what they are embarrassed to talk about. Even the adults on this message board resort to euphemisms. It amounts to doublespeak and makes the issue unclear. Even in discussing this you resorted to the word "spit" instead of "ejaculated". Would you think about reporting an incident if the child said someone has "spit" on them? It is clear you are a supporter of enforcement. Remove all perpetrators from any possibility of harming anyone. Yet you offer no way to identify these people. Just select a group that you suspect might be a problem and isolate them. Good luck with your new efforts. I am sure you can find some who will agree with your ideas without question. |
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Post by rational on Oct 4, 2010 9:33:43 GMT -5
Ram, I've noticed Rational will engage at length some people...I've had my suspicions as to why that is beyond the conversation at hand. As you say, he seems to think he's the only one who thinks rationally...but I suspect IF he were in the proper shoes at a certain time or event, his rationality would desert him. Do you mean that I would cry out for god to save me? I have been in situations where becoming irrational probably meant death or capture. CSA and the idea that the workers could be involved is an emotional issue for many and they lose objectivity. Or course, I would welcome your pointing out my irrational responses. I will modify them and apologize to anyone who my comments may have harmed. |
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Post by sharonw on Oct 4, 2010 13:32:00 GMT -5
Ram, I've noticed Rational will engage at length some people...I've had my suspicions as to why that is beyond the conversation at hand. As you say, he seems to think he's the only one who thinks rationally...but I suspect IF he were in the proper shoes at a certain time or event, his rationality would desert him. Do you mean that I would cry out for god to save me? I have been in situations where becoming irrational probably meant death or capture. CSA and the idea that the workers could be involved is an emotional issue for many and they lose objectivity. Or course, I would welcome your pointing out my irrational responses. I will modify them and apologize to anyone who my comments may have harmed. I didn't say you had been irrational, I just said I suspected that in the propertime and place that your rationality would desert you, even you. |
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Post by rational on Oct 4, 2010 13:52:08 GMT -5
I didn't say you had been irrational, I just said I suspected that in the propertime and place that your rationality would desert you, even you. I am not so sure it would be the proper time! It sounds like you are thinking of a time when it would be very important to be rational. But I do try! |
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 22, 2010 9:11:32 GMT -5
I posted this on another thread, and thought I would add it here for info I don't remember if the following organization has been linked to here on the board or not, but it is an organization in Australia that is a place to report sexual abuse that has happened in churches there.
brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/
I think there is also a UK Broken Rites site as well. The following is taken from their web site (sounds like it was set up by a group similar to how WINGS started) I highlited a few things. Read on their web iste for more info.
Our research and findings
Broken Rites investigates church-related sexual abuse. This abuse may have occurred in parishes, church schools, church youth clubs or church-affiliated children's homes. The offenders may be clergymen, religious brothers, church-school teachers or other church personnel.
If complaints arose, offenders were often transferred to a new parish or a new school, where they were inflicted on additional victims.
Too often, pressure was put on church victims to keep quiet about the offences. Many victims have to wait until they reach adulthood — or until their parents have died — before they can reveal that they were abused by an institution that their parents trusted.
Broken Rites Australia is not connected with any church or religious organisation.
Broken Rites does not charge for its services. It is non-profit and unfunded. It relies on donations from supporters.
It is never too late to report church sex-abuse. Church victims are invariably adults when they eventually contact Broken Rites.
Of the men and women who contact Broken Rites, most say that the abuse happened in childhood (up to the age of 16 or so). Child sex-abuse is always a criminal offence and the offender, if prosecuted, is not allowed to use "consent" as a legal defence.
Of all the people who contact Broken Rites, more than half are males. (In an analysis that we conducted of our first 1000 callers in 1993-94, the ratio of males to females was 55 to 45.) .
Commonly, Catholic victims maintained a long silence about their abuse. If they did report the abuse, often they merely told a church official — perhaps at a bishop’s office or the headquarters of a religious order. But this enabled the church officials to "tip off" their colleague, the offender; and then perhaps he would be transferred to a different parish or a different school or, in some cases, to another diocese, to abuse new victims; or he might be awarded an overseas "study" trip. The offender’s former parishioners (or students) would not be told why Father (or Brother) was leaving his old parish (or school), and the new parish (or school) would not be warned why Father or Brother was arriving. Thus, additional children and vulnerable adults were put at risk.
Obtaining justice
Broken Rites can explain to a victim the various options that are available for obtaining justice. For example:
At the very least, a victim can demand a written apology from the church authorities; or
If a victim is seeing a professional counsellor, the victim can arrange for the church accountant to send the counsellor's monthly fee directly to the counsellor; or
A victim might ask the church authorities to cover various other support services to repair a damaged life; or
Sometimes a victim may choose to have a confidential chat with an appropriate police officer about the offender's record — and about chances of a criminal prosecution.
Only the victim (not Broken Rites) can launch this justice process but Broken Rites can provide strategic advice.
Consulting the police
If the offender is still alive, Broken Rites can give victims the contact details for an appropriate police unit in the victim's state. Some Australian states have a specialist unit that handles sexual crimes and child abuse. These specialist officers, who are likely to work in plain clothes, are experienced at listening to the survivor’s story. In Victoria, these specialist officers are called the Sexual Offences and Child Abuse (SOCA) unit; in other states, there are different names.
It is the victim, not Broken Rites, who contacts the police. Only the victim can provide the evidence. Broken Rites merely tells the survivor the relevant police phone number.
The specialist police officers will have a confidential chat with the survivor and they will tell the survivor whether or not a prosecution is viable. If the survivor wishes to proceed, the police then act on his/her behalf. The survivor has the right to opt out of the investigation process at any time. The prosecution cannot proceed without the survivor's co-operation.
Sometimes, when survivors consult the police, they find that the police are already interested in this offender because previous victims have contacted the police. Thus, in many of the Broken Rites court cases, the offender was charged in relation to several — or many — victims. This makes it difficult for the offender to get off.
In the majority of our Black Collar Crime court cases, the offender pleaded guilty.
In Australia, there is no time limit on reporting a child-sex offence to the police. Australian courts recognise that church victims are often intimidated into silence for many years — perhaps until after they become adults.
When a church sex-offender is convicted, this helps the healing process for victims. Every conviction encourages new victims to contact Broken Rites, alerting us to other offenders.
The website info was sent to me by one of those who have been in contact with the authorities in the Vic/Taz issue. This is what she sent me last night:
Tonight I also spoke to a representative from an organisation called Broken Rites who provide advise and support for people who have been abused by ministers and church workers.
They are a very useful resource to keep in mind esp. for Australian CSA victims - they are extremely experienced in dealing with church groups,.......... and have some very good strategies for dealing with groups wanting to shirk their pastoral responsibilities.
Their website gives contact info.
Anyone interested can contact Broken Rites by using the link to their website, or:
Broken Rites helps victims of church-related sexual abuse.
Broken Rites Australian National Hotline:
(03) 9457 4999
Mail:
Broken Rites (Australia) Collective Inc.
PO Box 163,
ROSANNA,
Victoria 3084
Australia
E-mail Broken Rites Australia (we check our email daily)
brokenritesaustralia@hotmail.com
Indiviuals who have been abused are encouraged to contact Broken Rites for information and help. Scott  |
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 22, 2010 18:36:10 GMT -5
I thought I would post this here. It was placed on the BTS board by one of our admins. This sounds like a great way for people to get information about how to help each other and a way to show support for those who have been abused or have been affected by abuse. Also if I could make a suggestion, they should mention that there will be cookies and coffee or something of the sort. If for no other reason I would show up for cookies.......  (Really wish I could be there!) Some Friends in Melbourne are planning a get-together open to all survivors of abuse and those interested in support for survivors. To get further details, please PM one of the WINGS staff and we'll put you in touch.
The informal meeting is planned for a Saturday afternoon. It is intended for survivors of any form of abuse. A survivor may be a former victim, or family or friends, or simply professing or ex-professing people who are concerned about abuse and feel the need for cleansing and repentance within the fellowship.
The occasion may include singing, sharing and helpful advice to encourage positive steps ahead for all.
We have been encouraged by this little gem, that there are no victims in God's kingdom!
Send us a PM to express your interest and availability for this Saturday get-together in a few weeks time. Others may be organised in other places, over time.
[/size] |
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Post by ts on Oct 22, 2010 18:55:20 GMT -5
Hey Scott. That would be a great movement for the States. Do you think they would let us use the convention grounds' facilities?
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Post by mod5 on Oct 22, 2010 19:54:34 GMT -5
I thought I would post this here. It was placed on the BTS board by one of our admins. This sounds like a great way for people to get information about how to help each other and a way to show support for those who have been abused or have been affected by abuse. Also if I could make a suggestion, they should mention that there will be cookies and coffee or something of the sort. If for no other reason I would show up for cookies....... (Really wish I could be there!) Some Friends in Melbourne are planning a get-together open to all survivors of abuse and those interested in support for survivors. To get further details, please PM one of the WINGS staff and we'll put you in touch.
The informal meeting is planned for a Saturday afternoon. It is intended for survivors of any form of abuse. A survivor may be a former victim, or family or friends, or simply professing or ex-professing people who are concerned about abuse and feel the need for cleansing and repentance within the fellowship.
The occasion may include singing, sharing and helpful advice to encourage positive steps ahead for all.
We have been encouraged by this little gem, that there are no victims in God's kingdom!
Send us a PM to express your interest and availability for this Saturday get-together in a few weeks time. Others may be organised in other places, over time.
[/size][/quote] Good idea Scott. If anyone on TMB is interested they can also PM any of the Mods who will be able to put them in touch with the organisers. Coffee and cookies are essential ;D |
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 22, 2010 20:40:52 GMT -5
Hey Scott. That would be a great movement for the States. Do you think they would let us use the convention grounds' facilities? Actually, I do think that there are some convention grounds where people would be allowed to meet and help each other regardless of whether they are professing or exes. It would be up to the owners of the grounds as to whether they would allow this of course, and at a time when it would work with their schedule. Scott |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 22, 2010 20:47:16 GMT -5
Hey Scott. That would be a great movement for the States. Do you think they would let us use the convention grounds' facilities? Actually, I do think that there are some convention grounds where people would be allowed to meet and help each other regardless of whether they are professing or exes. It would be up to the owners of the grounds as to whether they would allow this of course, and at a time when it would work with their schedule. Scott |
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Post by ts on Oct 22, 2010 21:03:25 GMT -5
Hey Scott. That would be a great movement for the States. Do you think they would let us use the convention grounds' facilities? Actually, I do think that there are some convention grounds where people would be allowed to meet and help each other regardless of whether they are professing or exes. It would be up to the owners of the grounds as to whether they would allow this of course, and at a time when it would work with their schedule. Scott of course. Do you think there would be any owners up to that? I wonder if the overseers would have any influence over what the owners do with the grounds? Would they feel threatened with exes gathering there? From what I understand, one is liable to be "exed" by the overseer if he allows meetings on his property with exes. So, in a sense, it is not really up to the owners if he wants to remain in good standing with the overseers and remain in fellowship. |
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GoBlue
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Post by GoBlue on Oct 22, 2010 21:20:13 GMT -5
What an excellent idea! Praying that this initiative will help with the healing process.
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Post by emy on Oct 22, 2010 22:52:16 GMT -5
What I read of Broken Rites sounds like a movement I could support for victims. Scott, have you EVER been to a friends' gtg when food was not a major part of it?  |
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 22, 2010 22:57:10 GMT -5
What I read of Broken Rites sounds like a movement I could support for victims. Scott, have you EVER been to a friends' gtg when food was not a major part of it? No. If I showed up at a friends get together and there wasn't any food I would run for the door figuring I had stumbled onto a gospel meeting by accident or something of the sort..... Ha!!! Scott |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2010 17:37:48 GMT -5
Hey Scott,
Thanks for the help I believe Wings has been. It's a delicate thing to be so.
Thanks again.
Keith
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 24, 2010 21:50:25 GMT -5
Hey Scott, Thanks for the help I believe Wings has been. It's a delicate thing to be so. Thanks again. Keith You're welcome! We appreciate any support, and sometimes it is hard to do what we do and not be seen as an 'anti' site. With the recent addition of some professing folks to the WINGS staff, the hope is that more people will be willing to utilize WINGS as a resource. There have been several changes enacted since WINGS came into being, and I think that the changes are good for all. AND.... we couldn't do what we do without the support of both professing folks and exes willing to help our stated goals of Working to INform Notify and Support. Scott |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 6:40:47 GMT -5
Scott, hi. Any news on the Victorian worker involved in CSA?
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Post by sharonw on Oct 25, 2010 6:44:21 GMT -5
It really feels wonderful to know that innies and outies can work together against the scourge that damages the children! Thank you to all of you!
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 25, 2010 8:52:34 GMT -5
Scott, hi. Any news on the Victorian worker involved in CSA? The one that is the main focus of the investigation has had his court date moved to 2011 Bert. At the moment that is really about all the news I can share about him. Perhaps there are some from that area that can add more information here. Scott |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 25, 2010 14:30:26 GMT -5
I thought he already confessed? Could be there's not enough evidence?
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 25, 2010 14:53:10 GMT -5
I thought he already confessed? Could be there's not enough evidence? Yes he already confessed to the authorities. My understanding is that the investigation has broadened out as more information has been presented to them and been uncovered. Don't ask what, as I can't say. Just sharing what I have heard. Scott |
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Post by rational on Oct 25, 2010 15:24:39 GMT -5
Don't ask what, as I can't say. Just sharing what I have heard. Can't or won't? |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 25, 2010 15:27:05 GMT -5
I don't doubt what you are saying,it matches what I've heard. My understanding is though you can be only charged with one crime at a time. The investigation determines what charges are to be bound over to court. Sometimes lesser charges will be dismissed.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 25, 2010 15:28:40 GMT -5
Don't ask what, as I can't say. Just sharing what I have heard. Can't or won't? A little of both.  Some things I have heard shouldn't be shared in order not to taint the investigation (the won't category) and some things I have heard I do not know is factual (so can't in good conscience share) Scott |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 25, 2010 15:30:16 GMT -5
A little of both. Some things I have heard shouldn't be shared in order not to taint the investigation (the won't category) and some things I have heard I do not know is factual (so can't in good conscience share) Scott Thanks |
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Post by rational on Oct 25, 2010 15:53:05 GMT -5
My understanding is though you can be only charged with one crime at a time. I think you need to upgrade your understanding. |
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(Really wish I could be there!) 
Some things I have heard shouldn't be shared in order not to taint the investigation (the won't category) and some things I have heard I do not know is factual (so can't in good conscience share)