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Post by eyedeetentee on Nov 4, 2010 20:29:27 GMT -5
Abraham learned well from his ancestor.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 4, 2010 20:43:49 GMT -5
One of my Catholic girlfriends says that before Eve was created that Adam had no sex organs. She also says that in the Garden of Eden there was no death, therefore Adam did not have to eliminate his bowels or urinate. I am hoping St Anne will clarify if this is part of the Catholic belief system of not. She also says that in the Garden of Eden there was no deathFrom the link: "Scripture is talking about human death. Nowhere does it suggest the notion that the animals were created to be immortal. Only humans were given immortal souls. When death entered creation as the result of the fall, it was human death. So the fact that animals may have died before the fall does not conflict with Scripture." www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Adam%20and%20Evetherefore Adam did not have to eliminate his bowels or urinatePlants weren't given immortal souls either. Bottom line, ask her for a source. (( pun)) One of my Catholic girlfriends says that before Eve was created that Adam had no sex organs.Ask her for a source. If it is authentic Catholic teaching, there will be a source. Let's open it up for discussion. Scripture teaches that man was created with an immortal soul. Was there to be no human physical death before sin entered the world?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2010 20:52:51 GMT -5
Let's open it up for discussion. Scripture teaches that man was created with an immortal soul. Was there to be no human physical death before sin entered the world? I recently heard a pastor say that the reason we don't deal well with death is that we weren't originally created to die, so it is something we can't get used to despite the fact that the vast majority of people die (we can exclude Enoch & Co for this discussion). I never thought about it before so I've been mulling this over.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Nov 4, 2010 21:20:05 GMT -5
Scripture is talking about human death. Nowhere does it suggest the notion that the animals were created to be immortal. Only humans were given immortal souls. Are you sure? The "breath" God breathed into Adam is what made him "alive." And a few verses later, God makes animals in the same manner, out of the dust, and we can probably presume God breathed life into them as well. Why did God make animals? So that Adam could choose from them a helpmeet, because he didn't want Adam to be lonely. Why would Adam want a dead helpmeet? Eventually, after Adam rejected all of God's animals, God made a woman for him. Note that the Bible doesn't say God breathed life into her either. Surely we can assume from the story and omissions that either animals and women were made like Adam (both had the breath of life), or else neither of them were made like Adam (neither had the breath of life). So make up your mind, StAnne. Does your cat have a soul, or do you not have a soul? Can't have it both ways.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 5, 2010 0:16:38 GMT -5
Scripture is talking about human death. Nowhere does it suggest the notion that the animals were created to be immortal. Only humans were given immortal souls. Are you sure? The "breath" God breathed into Adam is what made him "alive." And a few verses later, God makes animals in the same manner, out of the dust, and we can probably presume God breathed life into them as well. Why did God make animals? So that Adam could choose from them a helpmeet, because he didn't want Adam to be lonely. Why would Adam want a dead helpmeet? Eventually, after Adam rejected all of God's animals, God made a woman for him. Note that the Bible doesn't say God breathed life into her either. Surely we can assume from the story and omissions that either animals and women were made like Adam (both had the breath of life), or else neither of them were made like Adam (neither had the breath of life). So make up your mind, StAnne. Does your cat have a soul, or do you not have a soul? Can't have it both ways. No disagreement that all have souls. Humans have immortal, spiritual souls. Animals and plants have material souls. As to the breath of life-- Wiki Anima may refer to: the Latin term for the "animating principle" "From Catholic theology we know that man, animals, and plants all have souls. Man's soul is a spirit and therefore is immortal. The souls of animals and plants, as St. Thomas Aquinas noted, are material principles. They die when the animals and plants die." "The soul is the animating principle of matter. The presence of a soul is what distinguishes living matter from dead matter. All living material creatures therefore have a soul. Everything from bacteria to humans. Humans are distinct, in that we alone have immortal, spiritual souls." "One principle is that all living things have a soul. Here soul is defined as what makes an organic body live. Now when any living thing dies, its soul is separated from its body. In the case of plants and animals the soul goes out of existence. But in the case of man, the soul remains in existence because it is a spiritual or immaterial thing. Consequently, it differs from the souls of animals in two important respects. First, it is the seat of intelligence or reason. For this reason a man is held responsible for his actions in a way that animals are not. Secondly, the soul is immortal." CCC 364 The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit: Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.
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Post by Gene on Nov 5, 2010 4:53:57 GMT -5
Scripture is talking about human death. Nowhere does it suggest the notion that the animals were created to be immortal. Only humans were given immortal souls. Are you sure? The "breath" God breathed into Adam is what made him "alive." And a few verses later, God makes animals in the same manner, out of the dust, and we can probably presume God breathed life into them as well. Why did God make animals? So that Adam could choose from them a helpmeet, because he didn't want Adam to be lonely. Why would Adam want a dead helpmeet? Eventually, after Adam rejected all of God's animals, God made a woman for him. Note that the Bible doesn't say God breathed life into her either. Surely we can assume from the story and omissions that either animals and women were made like Adam (both had the breath of life), or else neither of them were made like Adam (neither had the breath of life). So make up your mind, StAnne. Does your cat have a soul, or do you not have a soul? Can't have it both ways. Wasn't it god's breath that made Adam a living soul? If so, and if there's no record of god's breath giving animals and women a living soul, then one is left to wonder. That they are alive is indisputable. That they have a soul is... well...
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Post by StAnne on Nov 5, 2010 12:47:18 GMT -5
Are you sure? The "breath" God breathed into Adam is what made him "alive." And a few verses later, God makes animals in the same manner, out of the dust, and we can probably presume God breathed life into them as well. Why did God make animals? So that Adam could choose from them a helpmeet, because he didn't want Adam to be lonely. Why would Adam want a dead helpmeet? Eventually, after Adam rejected all of God's animals, God made a woman for him. Note that the Bible doesn't say God breathed life into her either. Surely we can assume from the story and omissions that either animals and women were made like Adam (both had the breath of life), or else neither of them were made like Adam (neither had the breath of life). So make up your mind, StAnne. Does your cat have a soul, or do you not have a soul? Can't have it both ways. Wasn't it god's breath that made Adam a living soul? If so, and if there's no record of god's breath giving animals and women a living soul, then one is left to wonder. That they are alive is indisputable. That they have a soul is... well... I think you're tongue-in-cheek. As am I for using I think--see thread on I think, I thought... From a nice neutral site--got questions-- Answer: As a rule, the complete question involves concern about animals, especially pets, being in heaven. The original creation. When we visit the original creation, we discover a number of truths. One apparent truth is the uniqueness of man compared to the lower animal creation. Only to man was it said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...." (Gen. 1: 26). Animals are next mentioned in the verse, but from the standpoint of their subservience to man. The fate of man and animals. The wise man had much to say regarding man, his birth, life, and destiny. He wrote, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. 12: 7). Earlier, he wrote regarding man and the beast: "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" (Eccl. 3: 21.) This question is clearly answered in the above noted chapter twelve, verse seven. Animals have a soul in the sense that they possess life. A common Hebrew word translated life (soul) is nephesh. Nephesh is used for the life or breath of both animals and man (Gen. 1: 20, 30; 19: 17). Life is that state that is the opposite of death. It is a state of animation, breathing, and awareness. Men and animals alike possess a soul in the sense of breath (nephesh). However, in the sense of possessing a part or element that lives forever, as man possesses, animals do not possess an eternal spirit (cp. Matt. 25: 46). The animal simply and totally returns to the dust, the spirit of man continues to exist (Eccl. 3: 21, cp. 12: 7). The fact that animals do not possess an eternal soul in the sense that man does, does not de-emphasize their value as companions to man. Pets can and do become an important part in the lives of millions. Also, in man's charge over the animal kingdom, it behooves man to protect and not abuse the animals (Gen. 1: 26-28). www.biblequestions.org/Archives/BQAR351.htm(Sharon, where are you? Jump in here.)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2010 15:27:09 GMT -5
StAnne, My cat has a soul and if he dies before I do, I'm taking him to heaven in a shoebox and asking the Lord to fix him up. Well, that's what I tell my husband at any rate.
I believe (a variant of I think- LOL) the Greek word for soul--psyche--indicates personality or of the mind. The domesticated animals have their own unique personalities, even within the same breed (don't know about the non-domestic animals for obvious reasons), and to me that would be their "soul." Hardly scholarly, I admit.
To follow the "I think" thread that StAnne referenced: I appreciate all that others have said on this subject, and I long to be better to my cat in the future.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 5, 2010 15:42:11 GMT -5
StAnne, My cat has a soul and if he dies before I do, I'm taking him to heaven in a shoebox and asking the Lord to fix him up. Well, that's what I tell my husband at any rate. I believe (a variant of I think- LOL) the Greek word for soul--psyche--indicates personality or of the mind. The domesticated animals have their own unique personalities, even within the same breed (don't know about the non-domestic animals for obvious reasons), and to me that would be their "soul." Hardly scholarly, I admit. To follow the "I think" thread that StAnne referenced: I appreciate all that others have said on this subject, and I long to be better to my cat in the future. You're a hoot!! Well. You're doing better than we are. We have dogs buried in at least two back yards, including our current one. Our dd's cat is also buried in our back yard. At least your cat-in-a-box will be easier to keep track of. My dad had a cow who would come up to him for "hugs" out in a large pasture. He didn't raise her--bought her as a yearling. He named her "Old Hon". We trained race horses for a number of years--our own and others. They all had different personalities, likes, and dislikes. These may be redundant statements--I don't know if you're considering large, outdoor animals in the domestic category, or not. If redundant--then I'm just agreeing with you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2010 15:53:18 GMT -5
StAnne, We trained race horses for a number of years--our own and others. They all had different personalities, likes, and dislikes. These may be redundant statements--I don't know if you're considering large, outdoor animals in the domestic category, or not. If redundant--then I'm just agreeing with you. I raised and trained horses for years and am thoroughly horse crazy, so yes, I'm including large out door animals too. I had a sheep too, who was dumber than dirt but she sure taught me about being a shepherd. Melted my heart once. I just don't know about the "zoo type" animals as I've never been around them. Zebras, giraffes, etc.
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