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Post by hope on Sept 17, 2010 20:53:28 GMT -5
what are your thoughts nathan? it is a big topic, maybe we need to narrow it down to get it started?
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Post by rational on Sept 24, 2010 0:20:41 GMT -5
~~ I have seen and experienced some of these paranormal first hand myself already. The ones who have not experienced these things are very skeptical because they haven't seen or gone through the process themselves. Thousands of people have experienced illusions first hand. The spoons were bent. No question. People saw it with their own eyes. But we all know it was an illusion. A trick. An error on the part of the observer.
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Post by rational on Oct 8, 2010 20:44:45 GMT -5
Thousands of people have experienced illusions first hand. The spoons were bent. No question. People saw it with their own eyes. But we all know it was an illusion. A trick. An error on the part of the observer. ~~ Sorry, I was talking about demonic possession (paranormal) NOT the spoon bending trick.... I have experienced demonic possession first hand if you hadn't experienced yourself then you wouldn't understand.I have experienced spoon bending/physic readings/telekinesis/astral projection/extra sensory perception first hand if you hadn't experienced yourself then you wouldn't understand. It is so easy to make the claim yet, so far, there is absolutely no proof.
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Post by rational on Oct 9, 2010 10:07:19 GMT -5
I have experienced spoon bending/physic readings/telekinesis/astral projection/extra sensory perception first hand if you hadn't experienced yourself then you wouldn't understand. It is so easy to make the claim yet, so far, there is absolutely no proof. Well, you have experienced the spoon bending/physic reading, etc.... AND I have experienced first hand demonic possession so let us leave it at that. I have written down my experienced on my 2x2 message board so believe it or not up to the readers.
The question is whether you believe it or not. I have also experienced what was portrayed and claimed to be demonic possession. It was believed by the person possessed and they acted accordingly. You would be surprised how fast that demon ran once the person was restrained and medicated. As far as I could tell, the demon was destroyed/banished by common anti-psychotic drugs.
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Post by hope on Oct 12, 2010 0:33:57 GMT -5
I also have witnessed it - and it looked very like severe mental illness to our rational western mindset. However, having some awareness to spirituality, there was a darkness that I sensed when I was around that person, a darkness that was very tangible.
My own cynicism kept me from believing they were possessed (I believed them to be mentally ill) even though they would manifest (in their case it would vary from their body jolting uncontrollably, to them buckled in pain, to their face contorting or loosing muscle control *in a way that is outside of human ability, to intense coughing to the point of throwing up, taking on different personalities and accents *ironically I knew this person for a long time and they themselves are terrible at speaking in different accents!!). They also threatened and attempted suicide and threaten me with scissors and a knife.
Despite witnessing all of this my cynicism caused me to sway back and forth trying to rationalise it. The words they spoke were like poison and you could tell they were in a session (of manifesting) even if they didn't move or speak - simply by looking at their face - it was "dark". I don't know how to explain it other than that.
When I would pray and sing over them they might manifest, cough uncontrollable, curse me, very agressively beat me up (twice), cry.... when they would try to read aloud the scriptures they could hardly get the words out for their body jolting.
But for me I wasn't convinced.... it wasn't until doors locked themselves from the inside and lights turned on and off without being touched that this spiritual encounter touched my physical "reality" in tangible enough a way for cynicism to be removed.
I am relunctant to tell this for fear of glorifying the evil that is controlling my friends life. But it showed me that what is mental illness in the west, is a very real demonisation in the East and less rationally minded, spiritually aware cultures. I believe that demons are intelligent beings, what could be cleverer than to convince us that they don't exist but are mental illness which can't be cured only medicated - which infact also controls the person.
We may know how they are doing it (via chemicals in our body that causes certain responses) but it doesn't change the fact that for my friends person to be controlled outside of his free will this way is an abuse outside of the rights God gave mankind.
When he would come around - out of the manifestaton he would cry and plead with me to help him. I can see that through prayer God is delivering him, one demon at a time. It seems to be where there is one there are many gathered.
There is alot about this topic that we don't understand, it would be arrogant to think we have all the answers and ignorant to simply ignore what we don't really understand.
My friend had recently become a christian - several months after what I described above I believe God revealed to me in a dream that his demons were ones that he accepted before his conversion and also inherited through his family line. The word for saved in the bible is SOZO - it means SAVED_HEALED_DELIVERED part of coming to the Lord involves all three. Especially in south america its widely accepted that new christians will have to go through perhaps months of deliverance as their entire culture is based around dedicating their children to various gods - at which time a legal right spiritually is granted to these spirits... I dunno, I don't claim to know much on this topic, but it was an important part of Jesus ministry and as christians that should make us sit up and take notice, asking Abba for direction and breakthrough...
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Post by rational on Oct 12, 2010 11:46:48 GMT -5
I also have witnessed it - and it looked very like severe mental illness to our rational western mindset. However, having some awareness to spirituality, there was a darkness that I sensed when I was around that person, a darkness that was very tangible. What, exactly, did it feel like? So far there is nothing that suggests demons. So not only demonic possession but telekineses as well. Many things cannot be cured, especially those that are the result of biological processes gone astray. And what is the reason that these demons do this? How is any of this different from people with mental illnesses? DSM-IV recognizes demonic possession as a psychiatric diagnosis V62.89. It usually involves not only the "possessed" but observers who support the idea of "possession". With a lack of external support the "possession" very often fades away and the illness is left to be treated.
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Post by rational on Oct 12, 2010 15:24:30 GMT -5
rational, do you believe in demonic possession? what are some of the signs if you believe in demonic possession? I do not believe in demonic possession nor to I exist in a demon haunted world. The signs that are claimed to be demonic possession are the exact same signs that are exhibited for those suffering from some sort of mental illness. It is much like anything of this sort - trust Occam's razor. There is no need to complicate things.
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Post by hope on Oct 18, 2010 1:25:04 GMT -5
Isn't it interesting that Jesus defined himself by two things that science still can't explain; light and love. There are lots of things we still don't understand. God created the rational side of your brain absolutely (the left side to be exact), but he also created you as spirit, made to encounter Him. If you are familiar with TED.com - it is a website where people from all over the world post their ideas... check out Stroke of Insight- by a brain surgeon on the human brain (left and right)
Rational you must have misread my comment, I absolutely think demon possession in some (maybe most) forms looks like/is mental illness, I even would consider that they are often one and the same, I don't understand why it is then though that this means that they are mutually exclusive. We don't call it demonisation we call it mental illness, but it is still an overriding of the human right to be in control of your actions and thoughts. That was the comment I was making. the chemical in the system is, I believe, the strategy.
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Post by rational on Oct 18, 2010 20:30:10 GMT -5
Isn't it interesting that Jesus defined himself by two things that science still can't explain; light and love.[/quotre]What do you find to be undefined about these? Light is very well defined, both the visible and the non-visible spectrum. What about love is it that you fine puzzling? Many. But there is no need to create and throw in a paranormal being as an explanation. Just admit that the answer if not yet known. But this is a problem if you do not believe in paranormal beings and understand that people evolved. Interesting post. If they are indistinguishable are they separate/different? So you believe they present as indistinguishable illnesses but you believe their root causes are different? What is this human right you claim? Humans are not in control of a large number of things going on in their bodies. Also, no one has yet explained why demons would want/need to invade a human body. Do they get frequent flyer oints for every human invaded? Or could it be a way to show off god's power? But then, if you believe god created them and that god is omnipotent that moving them out of a body is really no big feat.
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Post by hope on Oct 20, 2010 0:19:53 GMT -5
Rational, I no more feel the need to convince you of the existence of the spiritual realm than you might feel to convince me of the existance of your wife/daughter/son.
I'm simply relating my experience.
This next comment is not meant as an attack just an observation. I hope that you won't be offended.
I find there is little point in talking with someone who is unwilling to possibly have their ideas changed and remoulded by listening and discussing ideas with someone else. You seem to have already made up your mind about what you think about God, believers, demons etc... so why conversate about it all ... unless you are on a mission to convert us all to your way of thinking? You've asked alot of questions (I love questions, love to ask them also) but I feel like your not really interested in my responses.
Some of your posts seem to me to be defensive and simply want to justify your way of thinking and seemingly desiring to convince everyone else to think the same. By discounting and discrediting the experience of other people simply because it doesn't fit with your world view or experience, you draw a line around your own personal growth. I know this because I've done it before, just switched off when someone was saying something I didn't agree with, or at worse tearing them to shreds because it didn't fit my ideas. People who are not fully secure in what they believe are often the most defensive or dismissive as they are threatened by those who are different to them. I used to see this in the meetings, a mental shutting down or emotional wall going up when I would speak about God ... they discredited my experience because it wasn't within the framework or context of their mindset and experience.
God has given us brains and discernment to be able to discuss ideas and glean from ideas that are different from our own, regardless of who we are. Indeed my friend who is mentally ill or demonised, has taught me many things, even in his season of demonisation he was reading the bible and getting revelation... some stuff was good some stuff was funky. If i had discredited him because of where he is on his journey I would have missed out on the valuable things he has to share.. I've learned much about the heart of Jesus through the character of my atheist friend, have experienced love and compassion from my muslim friend, I've learned alot about God from people of all walks of life, Jesus asked the Father for unity amongst people because the each carry fragments of a glimpse at God, if we hold the fragments together we get a clearer picture of Him. If we discredit and disrespect other person/people then we essentially cut ourselves off from seeing a little more of Him. We are all made in his image as each of us encounters him whether we recognize it or not so we all have experiences and opinions to bring to the table.
I'm not pluralist (believing all religions lead to God) but I believe that we all meet God on our paths. Not everything is true which is why we need discernment, but truth is unafraid and unthreatened by questions, experiences and ideologies, because like a rock - it can't help but stand its ground.
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Post by rational on Oct 31, 2010 8:53:56 GMT -5
Rational, I no more feel the need to convince you of the existence of the spiritual realm than you might feel to convince me of the existance of your wife/daughter/son. I'm simply relating my experience. And I was not questioning your experience as much as I was questioning your statement (among others) that light was not well understood. What is not understood? No problem - I am not offended. I have often wondered how you would even go about 'converting' someone to not believe. In general if you post something as a fact I would be very interested in some data to support that fact. If it is a belief - no problem. It is a matter of faith and required no logical nor material support. I listen to what you say and ask you for something to back up what you claim. Provide the proof and I am very willing to re-evaluate my thinking. Yes, and that process hopefully includes rational thought. When you are throwing mud against the wall some of it will stick. So you do not mind if I ask you questions and look for proof to back up what you are stating? I know I don't mind it what people question what I have posted.
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Post by hope on Nov 2, 2010 5:55:53 GMT -5
Which of my comments did I present as fact? I believe that I simply expressed my experiences and my subsequent opinions that I formed from those experiences (clarifying more than once I was speculative on my evaluation, but believe that what I have reflected and evaluated from those experiences is correct and that there was more that I don't know about the topic than I know)
What can I do to prove my experiences? how can I "back up" my encounter? I can't I can just tell you what I experienced. Prove to me that you talked today, that you experienced sunlight today, that you walked today. You can't really, but you can tell me about it - your experience of it, you could describe it.
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Post by rational on Nov 2, 2010 14:35:15 GMT -5
Which of my comments did I present as fact? Isn't it interesting that Jesus defined himself by two things that science still can't explain; light and love. Well, there is the one a questioned you about. I have not questioned your beliefs. Proof is sometimes a difficult thing. I cannot prove that someone made a woman disappear/turn into a tiger but I have experienced it. I guess it depends on how you examine the experience. Do you think the woman vanished and the tiger appeared out of thin air in her place? Or is there a rational explanation? Is a person's behavior caused by the presence of a paranormal being no one have ever seen or could it be that they are suffering from the same problems that thousands of other people are suffering from? But I could produce people who have heard me talk, recordings of speech, phone calls I have made, and, more importantly, I could produce proof that I am able to speak. I could have photos and recordings of me walking and if tested could prove that I am able to walk. With the case of demonic possession there is no proof, no demons - nothing at all to support your claim except your belief. I question the facts behind the experience not your belief in what you saw.
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Post by MsMarie on Nov 25, 2010 5:58:53 GMT -5
I spent a couple of years in spiritualism and saw possession of one of my friends - in fact he became a medium. The being was apparently benign, wise and kind and warned against other kinds of spirits. If it had not been my friend who did this, then I would not have believed it to be genuine. However, as time went on, despite seeing healings, phenonema and many accurate prophecies, I became uneasy about whether the source of this was holy or healthy. The absence of mention of God or Jesus by these beings was a leading factor in my change of opinion. I subsequently renounced all such practices and became a Christian.
Now I am becoming increasingly concerned at seeing the same manifestations coming into evangelical churches under the charismatic banner - when this happens, we move on!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 10:44:57 GMT -5
I spent a couple of years in spiritualism and saw possession of one of my friends - in fact he became a medium. The being was apparently benign, wise and kind and warned against other kinds of spirits. If it had not been my friend who did this, then I would not have believed it to be genuine. However, as time went on, despite seeing healings, phenonema and many accurate prophecies, I became uneasy about whether the source of this was holy or healthy. The absence of mention of God or Jesus by these beings was a leading factor in my change of opinion. I subsequently renounced all such practices and became a Christian. Did your friend ever renounce what he was doing or is he still involved? Now I am becoming increasingly concerned at seeing the same manifestations coming into evangelical churches under the charismatic banner - when this happens, we move on!
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Post by MsMarie on Dec 4, 2010 11:14:50 GMT -5
Sorry for the delay. As far as I know (we were posted away) he continued in this for several years. We are no longer in touch, so I don't know whether he is still a practising medium. Four of us decided at the time that we would hold our own meetings in the home (mine) because we could not trust the results of people unknown to us who could be faking or just delusional. Our friend's possession was the result.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Feb 15, 2011 18:42:26 GMT -5
I spent a couple of years in spiritualism and saw possession of one of my friends - in fact he became a medium. The being was apparently benign, wise and kind and warned against other kinds of spirits. If it had not been my friend who did this, then I would not have believed it to be genuine. However, as time went on, despite seeing healings, phenonema and many accurate prophecies, I became uneasy about whether the source of this was holy or healthy. The absence of mention of God or Jesus by these beings was a leading factor in my change of opinion. I subsequently renounced all such practices and became a Christian. Praise God.Now I am becoming increasingly concerned at seeing the same manifestations coming into evangelical churches under the charismatic banner - when this happens, we move on! Interesting
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Post by shushy on Feb 15, 2011 18:47:40 GMT -5
I know christians can have demons. Ive witnessed many deliverances. I dont have a problem with it or focus on it. Would rather focus on christ. It is a huge topic. It is the about the conflict between 2 Kingdoms. Light and darkness. Christians can and do have demons, some hide for yrs before the person is delivered. A lot of christians do not believe you can have the holy spirit and a demonic spirit. Ill prove it too you...the workers who have committed CSA all need deliverance..
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