aus1
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by aus1 on Jul 25, 2010 9:42:19 GMT -5
Lyn Sherlock – Rochedale 2009 The Way Of The Cross Hymn 18
Sometimes we understand why Jonah ran away. I know why he found it so hard to deliver the message God gave him to deliver and I also know why many of those old prophets started their books, or some of the chapters by saying "The burden of the word of the Lord ." I hope you people understand that, as it is for me and my fellow workers, they say what they have to say because it is what the Lord has asked them to say and I hope you appreciate that.
There is a chapter in Ezekiel that speaks about the watchmen, chapter 33, and it says about the watchmen if they see the danger coming and they don't sound the warning, the people's blood will be on their heads. It says if the watchman sees the danger coming and tells them and they do not heed the warning, the blood will be on their own heads. I hope you understand that sometimes that is why there are warnings sounded, because we, as watchmen, do not want your blood on our heads. I hope you parents understand also that you are watchmen and you need to sound warnings for your children often. You do not want their blood to be on your head.
That hymn we sang had been on my mind the last few days and I've tried and tried to get it out of my mind, but I cannot. The way of God is the way of the cross and that is how it is. It is not a way that people can have a nice time with everyone else. This is the way of the cross and if we want to get home to God, we need to walk the way of the cross. We understand what the way of the cross is; it is the way that Jesus walked. Jesus knew every step He took was taking Him closer to the cross. The way of the cross is a dying way and it is this dying way that leads to life - dying to our own selves.
The third verse of that hymn says "I bid farewell to the things of the world, to walk in them never more." When we sing these things, do we really mean them? It tells us about the time that Jesus was about to be crucified and I believe it was the custom that the one being crucified was to carry the cross. I'm sure it was heavy, and we know it was for Jesus. It became too much for Him and they compelled another man called Simon to carry it for Him because Jesus was so weak. You would think anyone looking on at the scene of the crucifixion would know who was dying. They would not have to ask questions, they would be able to see clearly who was going to die. They were dying because they were bearing the cross. Sometimes we think it is all about what is on the inside and the outside does not matter, but we know it does matter. If we are dying, you can see it. We often visit hospitals and nursing homes and you know when someone is dying and you see it.
You know, it grieves me when I see so much worldliness amongst our friends; you know, we can see it. What do you see when you look in the mirror? Do you see someone that is dying to self? Do you see someone that is walking the way of the cross, or do you see someone that is fitting into the ways of the world? It may only be a little bit of fitting in, but it grows. What about you parents? Do you parents teach your children it is the way of the cross? This year, and it is not only this year, but sometimes we see photo's of gathering of the young ones, young friends, and it makes us so sad because it is hard to see signs of Godliness and it is hard to see signs of the people walking in the way of the cross. Have we learned as children that it is the way of the cross?
I learned something when I was small in primary school, my age would have been around six, seven or eight. It was only my sister and I at school at that stage and later some other friends' children came to the school, but at this stage it was just my sister and I. This school would have a fancy dress ball every year. There were 1200 children at the primary school and they practiced for weeks and weeks for the fancy dress ball. My sister and I ,out of 1200 children, sat on the bank of the oval and watched them because we were not going. You know, that is only fancy dress but we have to be careful, don't we, and at all times we must live the life of the child of God as someone who is walking the way of the cross. It is the way of the cross that leads home.
There was a King in the Old Testament and his name was Jeroboam; we read of him in the first Kings chapter 12, before and after that chapter also, and when you read about him later on, you read about the sin that he sinned and how he caused Israel to sin. And do you know what it was? Chapter 12, verse 28, "Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt." He said it is too much for you, it is a bit too far, you don't have to try quite so hard. Something is closer and easier to worship so just worship that. That is not the way of the cross. It is never too far, it is never too hard to walk the way of the cross. And we know what the end of it is. I hope we would understand more clearly, like we were singing, it is the way of the cross that leads home.
I also have noticed this year, it seems to be a thing for people to go out. I do not know where they go. We stay in homes sometimes for a week, and we see the young people are out every night. They do not seem to value home. Do we really understand what home is, or do we just want to be out and about, enjoying the pleasures and places of this world. Remember, it is the way of the cross that leads home. I do hope that we not only remember it is the way of the cross, but that we learn to love it because it is a way of joy, peace and holiness and it is the only way that leads home to Jesus.
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Post by ronhall on Jul 27, 2010 12:02:50 GMT -5
Just wondering if anyone, especially young folks found this edifying or spiritually uplifting.
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Post by emy on Jul 27, 2010 19:13:20 GMT -5
Maybe there were young people listening who did not know this from the Bible. If they learned to know that is why parents or workers give advice and correction, then they were "edified." Not all edification is pleasant, right?
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Post by Gene on Jul 27, 2010 20:26:20 GMT -5
wood, hay and stubble
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Post by ronhall on Jul 28, 2010 7:33:15 GMT -5
Maybe there were young people listening who did not know this from the Bible. If they learned to know that is why parents or workers give advice and correction, then they were "edified." Not all edification is pleasant, right? That is certainly right, that not all edification is pleasant. Glad you brought that out. I was just making a belated initial comment to kick off some discussion since it had been setting there alone for a bit longer than usual. While these things need to be expressed at times, a whole sermon on this subject without something uplifting for balance suggests that this worker might be suffering from depression. Her complaint that the folks in whose home she stay tend to go out while she is there indicates that she may not be easy to have around -- again suggesting a depression problem. It also could be the family in the homes where she stayed were of the very active types and they were hoping to also be able to offer her some "quiet time" by spending some evenings out. One family in our area when they had teen aged kids used to travel on the various holidays. They left the refrigerator stocked, the car gassed, the doors unlocked and likely a few bucks hidden in the bottom of the cookie jar with a standing invite to any workers in the state, or anywhere in the world for that matter, to come and stay while they were gone. From every indication, the workers appreciated this and always took advantage of the invite. These friends got free house sitting service too.
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Post by fred on Jul 30, 2010 5:58:10 GMT -5
Mmmm.........know the girl, and if this is is an accurate interpretation of what she had to say there would be a few questions I would like to ask her.
What would be the attributes of 'cross bearing' that we should expect to see in the lives of God's children?
Could she please give her definition of 'worldiness', and what steps should we take to separate ourselves from 'the world'?
I agree with her concerning family life, however once chilren reach their late teens they need to be finding their own way in the world and parents can only hope that a sound family background will be guiding them.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 30, 2010 8:48:39 GMT -5
I think this was VERY nice thing to do. It made me wonder if one of the parents had been a worker at one time and knew first hand how much workers appreciate times when they are able to be by themselves.
There is stress involved for workers who are always living in a "glass house" and in someone elses habitat. Some get little to no vacations. Not all have a set vacation time like the western USA workers who get some free time after their last convention of the year, I believe it is.
I firmly believe the workers returning to using baches would help many workers to stay in the work...less would leave because of nerves.
How many times I feel glad when the company leaves; and feel glad when I am company, and I leave someones home where I I've been a guest. When things return to normal...and I can be myself. Kids leave home so they can do things their own way...be themselves. Workers rarely have that option--to really "be themselves." I really dont know how they do it. I sure couldnt.
Just putting out another good reason for the workers to begin baching in America etc--in addition to the good reason it cuts down on possible CSA risks and reduces their risk of false accusations of same.
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Post by dudeler on Aug 6, 2010 16:25:50 GMT -5
I learned something when I was small in primary school, my age would have been around six, seven or eight. It was only my sister and I at school at that stage and later some other friends' children came to the school, but at this stage it was just my sister and I. This school would have a fancy dress ball every year. There were 1200 children at the primary school and they practiced for weeks and weeks for the fancy dress ball. My sister and I ,out of 1200 children, sat on the bank of the oval and watched them because we were not going. You know, that is only fancy dress but we have to be careful, don't we, and at all times we must live the life of the child of God as someone who is walking the way of the cross. It is the way of the cross that leads home. This is supposed to be a shining example, but it just sounds sad. Perhaps participating in what sounds like a fun community event would have started those sisters on the road to hell and ruin, but I doubt it. I think most kids want a more rational explanation than you should sacrifice because I sacrificed when I was your age. Teaching them discernment will serve them better than enforcing their isolation.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 24, 2010 8:39:23 GMT -5
I look at these statements as similar to what we read here. Another persons spin. To be convinced of God's will according to prayer is the best way to live. The workers that were the most inspiration in our conventions this year were the feeders,not the lawgivers.
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pauper
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by pauper on Aug 29, 2010 4:11:03 GMT -5
Mmmm.........know the girl, and if this is is an accurate interpretation of what she had to say there would be a few questions I would like to ask her. What would be the attributes of 'cross bearing' that we should expect to see in the lives of God's children? Could she please give her definition of 'worldiness', and what steps should we take to separate ourselves from 'the world'? I agree with her concerning family life, however once chilren reach their late teens they need to be finding their own way in the world and parents can only hope that a sound family background will be guiding them. While I think the words spoken by the young sister worker, like many of the messages spoken by workers in the 2x2 church, are basically sound, I think you have some good questions, Fred. I'm wondering if, between the anecdote she gave from her childhood and her concerns about the homelife of children of professing parents today, the sister worker is wrestling with inconsistencies and ambiguities in the 2x2 church. The fact that this woman felt intimidated in delivering her message to a group of people in which most had already heard and accepted "the gospel" is in itself revealing. Conversely, Jonah was sent to preach to a people who were not even God-fearing, he supposed, and were an enemy of God's people. Many people in the 2x2 church still refute the fellowship's 19th century origin, but there are clear inconsistencies with scripture that cannot be ignored (however, people do ignore those scriptures, or are offended if someone else reads those scriptures, although they claim to recognize the authority of the Bible). I struggled with it for a long time, and here are some inconsistencies I've found: 1. Doctrine. The gospel that John the Baptist and Jesus taught was the gospel of repentance and of the kingdom of heaven (Matt 3:2; 4:17, 23; 9:35). Before he ascended into heaven, Jesus commanded his disciples to go into all nations, "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you..." (Matt 28:19-20). The doctrine that Jesus and the apostles taught is recorded throughout the New Testament. Before we can repent (turn from our sins), we must know what we need to repent of. The workers do teach from the Bible, but are selective in what they teach, preferring ambiguous (but, yes, many scripturally sound) messages so that both those who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible and those who believe in a more liberal interpretation feel deceived and disappointed, while those who don't care about specific doctrine (because the only doctrine they've learned is that meeting in the home is the only true way to worship and that salvation comes by hearing the workers preach or welcoming the workers into their homes) are only concerned with the social aspect of the fellowship. 2. Baptism. When certain of the Pharisees and Sadduccees (who did not adhere to God's commandments, but promoted their own laws pertaining to religious rites) approached John the Baptist to be baptized of him, John's response to them was, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentence..." (Matt 3:7-8). In the early church, people were baptized immediately after they heard the gospel of Christ, accepted it and repented of their sins (Acts 2:38, 41; Acts 8:12, 36-38; Acts 9:17-18; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 16:30-33). Baptism does not protect us from God's judgment. The Bible is clear that we must repent of our sins to be baptized unto salvation and, again, we must first know what to repent of. In the the 2x2 church, people generally wait a year or more to be baptized after "professing." Is this to give people time to become more familiar with the Bible so they can repent of their sins? What, then, is the purpose of "professing" (which is not conveyed as a separate event in the Bible, but is a term Paul used to describe his adherence to the gospel of Christ)? Doesn't this signify that people who haven't accepted the gospel message nor repented are teaching others? I'm sure the first workers had a reason for delaying baptism, but by introducing the concept of "professing," didn't they add a new dimension to the original gospel (see Rev 22:18)? 3. Women teachers. I know this is a controversial subject, and I've revisited it several times since high school (BTW, I was not raised in a "professing" family; I went to several mainstream churches before "professing" and no longer go to meeting). I admit I became weary of speaking in meeting because of the differing beliefs, so I was relieved when I discovered that some churches, besides the Catholic church, still disallow women teachers and preachers. The best evidence for this restriction is in 1 Tim 2:11-14. Paul clarifies that it is not simply a cultural matter. The idea, though, that women were to even learn the scriptures was revolutionary to the Jews of that day. Jesus included women and children in his audience whenever he taught publicly or privately. Workers have cited, in support of women speaking in the church and even women in the ministry, the testimony of the women who announced Jesus's resurrection to his disciples (Matt 28:1-7). Acts 21:9, telling of the four daughters of Philip the evangelist who prophesized, was the most convincing for me. I finally understood that they were not teaching in the church, but were teaching the gospel privately. The women at the tomb did not preach repentence or the kingdom of heaven, and were not gathered in an assembly of worshipers. So, these passages do not conflict with the passage in 1 Tim 2. 4. Structure of the churches. The Bible states that Christ is the head of the church (Eph 4:15-16; 5:23; Col 1:18). Various functions within the churches are described (Acts 13:1; 1 Cor 12:27-28; Eph 4:11-12), but these are not used as titles and do not constitute a hierarchy. Each church had multiple elders (Acts 20:17), who are also designated as bishops (meaning "overseers"). The role of bishop began to evolve in AD 95, at the time John was completing the book of Revelation, when Clement informed the church at Corinth in writing of a new church structure consisting of laity, levites, priests and a high priest. Over the next two centuries, roles within the churches became increasingly distorted, and the term "reverend presbytery" was introduced. The founders of the 2X2 church seemed to make an effort at reverting to the worship structure of the early church. But, there is a definite hierarchy, defined by the "workers," the "elders" and the "friends." Although Jesus originally sent his disciples out two by two to spread the gospel throughout Israel, Philip, who is described as an evangelist, went into Samaria alone preaching the gospel (Acts 8:5) and was returning to Jerusalem (remember, like Jesus's disciples, he had a family to return to) when the Lord sent him to Gaza alone to minister to the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26-29). Once, John complained to Jesus of a man who was "casting out demons in [Jesus's] name." The man was acting solo, but apparently preaching the right gospel because the demons responded to him; so, Jesus told his disciples, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in my name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of me" (Mark 9:38-39). The 2x2 church emphasizes meeting in homes, a two-by-two ministry and ministers permanently leaving their homes - practices either not followed in the New Testament of not followed consistently. If Christ and the apostles, whom he appointed - yes, including Paul - approved of practices that are contrary to the teachings of the 2x2 church, how can those practices be considered Jesus's commands? 5. Witness/Testimony. Jesus proclaimed his testimony to be true (John 8:14-18, 26) and John verified that Jesus came to earth as a witness (John 1:7; Rev 1:5) because he spoke the words his heavenly Father directed him to speak. The apostles were, in turn, direct witnesses of Jesus and his teachings (John 1:14, 34; 1 Cor 15:3-9; 1 Peter 1:16-19; Rev 1:1-2). We have a written record of their testimony (2 Tim 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21). During my years in the 2x2 fellowship, I'm not sure I heard any of the workers - or anyone else, for that matter - refer to the workers as "living witnesses," but this was apparently a founding principle of the fellowship. However, the Bible makes clear that a witness is someone who has direct contact with the person they are testifying of. Peter refers to himself and the other disciples as eyewitnesses. Nothing in the Bible suggests an apostolic succession, but the churches were subsequently corrupted through the ages as certain individuals claimed apostolic authority. I do believe that most workers are sincere in their ministry and I admire them for what they do. There are also, in my opinion, some good people in the 2x2 church. But, the more I've seen and heard, and the more I've searched, the more evident it is to me that the fellowship is far from being the one true way. It's just another false way that can be very convincing. I have been studying Romans 3 where Paul says, "let God be found true, though every man be found a liar" (v. 4), and quotes some verses from the Psalms (14:1-3; 53:1-3) proclaiming that "there is none righteous, not even one" (v. 10-18). It's a difficult passage to understand overall, but Paul is saying that we should assume that people's words are untrue rather than doubt God's word, because God alone is righteous and trustworthy. If anyone wants to dispute my observations above, please feel free to do so, supported by scripture references.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 29, 2010 5:54:44 GMT -5
I think this was VERY nice thing to do. It made me wonder if one of the parents had been a worker at one time and knew first hand how much workers appreciate times when they are able to be by themselves. There is stress involved for workers who are always living in a "glass house" and in someone elses habitat. Some get little to no vacations. Not all have a set vacation time like the western USA workers who get some free time after their last convention of the year, I believe it is. I firmly believe the workers returning to using baches would help many workers to stay in the work...less would leave because of nerves. How many times I feel glad when the company leaves; and feel glad when I am company, and I leave someones home where I I've been a guest. When things return to normal...and I can be myself. Kids leave home so they can do things their own way...be themselves. Workers rarely have that option--to really "be themselves." I really dont know how they do it. I sure couldnt. Just putting out another good reason for the workers to begin baching in America etc--in addition to the good reason it cuts down on possible CSA risks and reduces their risk of false accusations of same. Great post Cherie.
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Post by Happy Feet on Sept 3, 2010 3:56:03 GMT -5
I felt sad when I read that this worker and her sister would sit and watch the other kids preparing for the fancy dress ball. I can imagine how sad her and her sister felt at the time. It obviously stuck in her memory and she is trying to still make sense of it as an adult by rationalizing it away as being Godly. There is nothing wrong with going to a fancy dress ball, as she calls it. It is part of growing up. Parents imposing unrealistic expectations on their kids in the name of religion. I was fortunate that my mother let me go to one ball while at school. I have good memories of that.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Sept 11, 2010 7:16:27 GMT -5
Sometimes we understand why Jonah ran away. I know why he found it so hard to deliver the message God gave him to deliver and I also know why many of those old prophets started their books, or some of the chapters by saying "The burden of the word of the Lord ." I hope you people understand that, as it is for me and my fellow workers, they say what they have to say because it is what the Lord has asked them to say and I hope you appreciate that.
The story of Jonah is a powerful story. Would you listen to someone outside meetings with the same burden? The burden of the word of the Lord? Would you look for the inner witness of your spirit to confirm what was being said or would you just accept that it came from God. If your spirit didn’t witness what would you do? Other than prayer? Would you disagree and explain why?
There is a chapter in Ezekiel that speaks about the watchmen, chapter 33, and it says about the watchmen if they see the danger coming and they don't sound the warning, the people's blood will be on their heads. It says if the watchman sees the danger coming and tells them and they do not heed the warning, the blood will be on their own heads. I hope you understand that sometimes that is why there are warnings sounded, because we, as watchmen, do not want your blood on our heads. I hope you parents understand also that you are watchmen and you need to sound warnings for your children often. You do not want their blood to be on your head.
Not everybody is a watchmen or has the call to be one. Remember the story of Gideon?
That hymn we sang had been on my mind the last few days and I've tried and tried to get it out of my mind, but I cannot. The way of God is the way of the cross and that is how it is. It is not a way that people can have a nice time with everyone else. This is the way of the cross and if we want to get home to God, we need to walk the way of the cross. We understand what the way of the cross is; it is the way that Jesus walked. Jesus knew every step He took was taking Him closer to the cross. The way of the cross is a dying way and it is this dying way that leads to life - dying to our own selves.
In Jn1:1 the scripture tells us that Jesus is the word. Faith comes by hearing the word. I hope you don’t mind me critiquing you. It would have been good if you could read some scripture references in your preaching. I know I am being presumious to critique you but if I was listening to you preach I would have done it too. Why? To help you.
The third verse of that hymn says "I bid farewell to the things of the world, to walk in them never more." When we sing these things, do we really mean them? It tells us about the time that Jesus was about to be crucified and I believe it was the custom that the one being crucified was to carry the cross. I'm sure it was heavy, and we know it was for Jesus. It became too much for Him and they compelled another man called Simon to carry it for Him because Jesus was so weak. You would think anyone looking on at the scene of the crucifixion would know who was dying. They would not have to ask questions, they would be able to see clearly who was going to die. They were dying because they were bearing the cross. Sometimes we think it is all about what is on the inside and the outside does not matter, but we know it does matter. If we are dying, you can see it. We often visit hospitals and nursing homes and you know when someone is dying and you see it.
You know, it grieves me when I see so much worldliness amongst our friends; you know, we can see it. What do you see when you look in the mirror? Do you see someone that is dying to self? Do you see someone that is walking the way of the cross, or do you see someone that is fitting into the ways of the world? It may only be a little bit of fitting in, but it grows. What about you parents? Do you parents teach your children it is the way of the cross? This year, and it is not only this year, but sometimes we see photo's of gathering of the young ones, young friends, and it makes us so sad because it is hard to see signs of Godliness and it is hard to see signs of the people walking in the way of the cross. Have we learned as children that it is the way of the cross?
What is worldliness? Your comments are judgmental. What outward signs are you looking for? Why be sad? God looks at the heart. Don’t be deceived into thinking that clothing covers heart issues or lack of makeup, the right hair style.
I learned something when I was small in primary school, my age would have been around six, seven or eight. It was only my sister and I at school at that stage and later some other friends' children came to the school, but at this stage it was just my sister and I. This school would have a fancy dress ball every year. There were 1200 children at the primary school and they practiced for weeks and weeks for the fancy dress ball. My sister and I ,out of 1200 children, sat on the bank of the oval and watched them because we were not going. You know, that is only fancy dress but we have to be careful, don't we, and at all times we must live the life of the child of God as someone who is walking the way of the cross. It is the way of the cross that leads home.
Yes, I learned this too that dancing is fun and the workers deprived me of that. If something is fun it doesn’t mean it is evil.
There was a King in the Old Testament and his name was Jeroboam; we read of him in the first Kings chapter 12, before and after that chapter also, and when you read about him later on, you read about the sin that he sinned and how he caused Israel to sin. And do you know what it was? Chapter 12, verse 28, "Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt." He said it is too much for you, it is a bit too far, you don't have to try quite so hard. Something is closer and easier to worship so just worship that. That is not the way of the cross. It is never too far, it is never too hard to walk the way of the cross. And we know what the end of it is. I hope we would understand more clearly, like we were singing, it is the way of the cross that leads home.
Idolatry, which makes the Lord jealous.
I also have noticed this year, it seems to be a thing for people to go out. I do not know where they go. We stay in homes sometimes for a week, and we see the young people are out every night. They do not seem to value home. Do we really understand what home is, or do we just want to be out and about, enjoying the pleasures and places of this world. Remember, it is the way of the cross that leads home. I do hope that we not only remember it is the way of the cross, but that we learn to love it because it is a way of joy, peace and holiness and it is the only way that leads home to Jesus.
Is it really any of your business where they go. As long as Mum and Dad know where they are if they are young. Jesus knows where they are and watches over them. They could be doing anything from socializing with their friends, to dating to working or studying or even getting fit. Does it matter?
I found your message, while I know your heart is in the right place you could have focused on one topic, either Jonah, watchmen, idolatry, family. All are strong topics and could be expounded well. More scripture would have been good. Preaching needs to be encouraging, uplifting to inspire us to become more like Christ. Any correction, hmmm this is a diffcult one. Biblically a person bringing the word which is fr reproof edification is better to read scripture than voice your thoughts about it. Its the holy spirit who convicts and will convict with the word. Its important to love the people and encourage them and build them in their most holy faith. to nurture them as Jesus would. Pray earnestly for them. You will begin to make enemies if you judge the hand that feeds you. I would run with love and acceptance if I was you. Jesus never condemns us, for any reason.
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Post by sharonw on Dec 24, 2010 21:15:19 GMT -5
The way of the cross leads home.....seems some are not really getting what that phrase really means. And that saddens me!
I agree that it doesn't hurt any of us to quell a lot of just satisfying our whims and first thoughts....but think it over and do as Lin said, take it to the Lord in prayer and many times that gives us "second" thoughts about what we were about to do or wanted to do.
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Post by apple on Dec 26, 2010 15:40:12 GMT -5
"The way of God is the way of the cross and that is how it is. It is not a way that people can have a nice time with everyone else. This is the way of the cross and if we want to get home to God, we need to walk the way of the cross. We understand what the way of the cross is; it is the way that Jesus walked. Jesus knew every step He took was taking Him closer to the cross. The way of the cross is a dying way and it is this dying way that leads to life - dying to our own selves."
It's sad to read what she has said.
The meetings are not the only true "Way", that is Jesus.Jesus died as the ultimate sacrifice for us so that we would not have to sacrifice to be acceptable to God. This idea of dying to be saved is works based and it's a rejection of Jesus's sacrifice because it says "your sacrifice Jesus was not enough". It's akin to the old ways of the testament, sacrificing constantly for every little sin.
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Post by goodapollo on Jan 25, 2011 16:40:06 GMT -5
Jesus came to fulfill the law. He did not come to abolish the law. I believe in salvation by grace. Christ's sacrifice is the only way to Heaven. However, we must be careful to not treat is as a free ride to sin all we want.
Indeed this is sad. This "testimony" is a perfect example of a stereotypical 2x2 testimony. If someone on the outside was curious what a sermon from a 2x2 worker sounded like, this would be a great resource. It is one that holds the line and uses lots of vague one liners that make everyone feel good about the message. ... Unless they're really paying attention.
Thank God my blinders have been removed. I pray for all those still wearing them.
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otto2
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Posts: 59
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Post by otto2 on Jan 28, 2011 4:45:41 GMT -5
Jesus came to fulfill the law. He did not come to abolish the law. I believe in salvation by grace. Christ's sacrifice is the only way to Heaven. However, we must be careful to not treat is as a free ride to sin all we want. . I think you're right goodapollo, but what do you make of Romans 8:4 where Paul says when referring to Christ's sacrifice 'that the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.' Seems to me Paul is saying that we recieve the grace to uphold the law rather than, it's all been done for us so it doesn't matter what we do. The root of the matter still being: our upholding the law does not save us, but it's what Jesus has done that saves us.
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Post by ariandgabe on Jan 30, 2011 21:22:51 GMT -5
Jesus came to fulfill the law. He did not come to abolish the law. I believe in salvation by grace. Christ's sacrifice is the only way to Heaven. However, we must be careful to not treat is as a free ride to sin all we want. . I think you're right goodapollo, but what do you make of Romans 8:4 where Paul says when referring to Christ's sacrifice 'that the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.' Seems to me Paul is saying that we recieve the grace to uphold the law rather than, it's all been done for us so it doesn't matter what we do. The root of the matter still being: our upholding the law does not save us, but it's what Jesus has done that saves us. Amen Otto2, amen...
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sms
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by sms on May 10, 2011 19:11:05 GMT -5
Does this edify me? It edifies me to know that I no longer have to worry about being judged as "not Godly enough" based on what I wear or how I wear my hair. It edifies me to know that I no longer have to worry about being judged as "not Godly enough" based on one person's perception of what activities I choose to do (including getting a college education!). I am edified to know that I no longer have to fear a "dressing down" from this sister worker, or any of her ilk - all for my own good, of course - even when I was trying my very best to "carry the cross" (as professing people perceive the carrying of the cross!) I am edified to know that my children will not have to sit on the sidelines while ALL of their friends get dressed up and go to a party and carry that memory with them for life - and further edified to know that doesn't mean their "blood is on my head". I am edified to know that, despite what this worker may think, God judges us based on what is inside of us - not what is on the outside. Mostly, I am edified to be free of a faith based on works, rather than grace.
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Post by ex-teenager on May 11, 2011 13:20:41 GMT -5
I for one, as a young person get what shes talking about. There is an increase of "worldliness" amoungst the friends. Some would say its because the "rules" are more relaxed, but I often wonder is it a drop in true spiritual living. If everyone does what the rules allow then it shows that the rule was the only barrier and not any personal conviction.
I know from what I have observed, that certainly in the UK if the young ones can get away with going out drinking, partying, pubbing and clubbing they will do it - to me that is sad, because it shows a lack of understanding or even the new life.
Maybe its time for a revival were the youth don't profess at 10 because they feel a fear of death, but profess at 25 when they realise how weak human nature is. Just my thoughts, but I understand were this worker is coming from. How discouraging for her to give up so much for God and see others take it so lightly.
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Post by emy on May 11, 2011 15:16:33 GMT -5
I for one, as a young person get what shes talking about. There is an increase of "worldliness" amoungst the friends. Some would say its because the "rules" are more relaxed, but I often wonder is it a drop in true spiritual living. If everyone does what the rules allow then it shows that the rule was the only barrier and not any personal conviction. I know from what I have observed, that certainly in the UK if the young ones can get away with going out drinking, partying, pubbing and clubbing they will do it - to me that is sad, because it shows a lack of understanding or even the new life. Maybe its time for a revival were the youth don't profess at 10 because they feel a fear of death, but profess at 25 when they realise how weak human nature is. Just my thoughts, but I understand were this worker is coming from. How discouraging for her to give up so much for God and see others take it so lightly. Thank you for speaking up as a young person.
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Post by Scott Ross on May 11, 2011 17:42:08 GMT -5
If everyone does what the rules allow then it shows that the rule was the only barrier and not any personal conviction.
Are there actually any real rules? We really should be living by our convictions and not how someone else thinks we should live.
I liked the way Paul spoke of this.....
1 Corinthians 6:11-13 (The Message)
9-11Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don't qualify as citizens in God's kingdom. A number of you know from experience what I'm talking about, for not so long ago you were on that list. Since then, you've been cleaned up and given a fresh start by Jesus, our Master, our Messiah, and by our God present in us, the Spirit.
12Just because something is technically legal doesn't mean that it's spiritually appropriate. If I went around doing whatever I thought I could get by with, I'd be a slave to my whims.
13You know the old saying, "First you eat to live, and then you live to eat"? Well, it may be true that the body is only a temporary thing, but that's no excuse for stuffing your body with food, or indulging it with sex. Since the Master honors you with a body, honor him with your body!
1Corinthians 10 (The Message) 23-24Looking at it one way, you could say, "Anything goes. Because of God's immense generosity and grace, we don't have to dissect and scrutinize every action to see if it will pass muster." But the point is not to just get by. We want to live well, but our foremost efforts should be to help others live well.
25-28With that as a base to work from, common sense can take you the rest of the way. Eat anything sold at the butcher shop, for instance; you don't have to run an "idolatry test" on every item. "The earth," after all, "is God's, and everything in it." That "everything" certainly includes the leg of lamb in the butcher shop. If a nonbeliever invites you to dinner and you feel like going, go ahead and enjoy yourself; eat everything placed before you. It would be both bad manners and bad spirituality to cross-examine your host on the ethical purity of each course as it is served. On the other hand, if he goes out of his way to tell you that this or that was sacrificed to god or goddess so-and-so, you should pass. Even though you may be indifferent as to where it came from, he isn't, and you don't want to send mixed messages to him about who you are worshiping.
29-30But, except for these special cases, I'm not going to walk around on eggshells worrying about what small-minded people might say; I'm going to stride free and easy, knowing what our large-minded Master has already said. If I eat what is served to me, grateful to God for what is on the table, how can I worry about what someone will say? I thanked God for it and he blessed it!
31-33So eat your meals heartily, not worrying about what others say about you—you're eating to God's glory, after all, not to please them. As a matter of fact, do everything that way, heartily and freely to God's glory. At the same time, don't be callous in your exercise of freedom, thoughtlessly stepping on the toes of those who aren't as free as you are. I try my best to be considerate of everyone's feelings in all these matters; I hope you will be, too.
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Post by guitar on Oct 3, 2012 11:59:42 GMT -5
I know two sister workers who were early pioneers of getting an education. These ladies are both over 60. One was an engineer the other worked in a phyc. ward. In my area this is not true. I felt most people are encouraged to get edumacated.
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Post by fred on Oct 4, 2012 7:11:46 GMT -5
Ah yes roscoe, I remember him well as he was the worker mostly in our area as I was growing up. He was a rather stern old chap and frankly, we were a bit intimidated by him - not a sound basis for a pastor relationship.
Two area churches used to get together once a year for a picnic as there were many kids in that 5-15 age group .......there would be sack races, egg and spoon, and three-legged races and lots of goodies to eat. I especially remember the peanut scramble!
Sadly, the word came that this was not to continue....... I guess more than 6 were present.
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Post by whyisitso on Oct 11, 2012 23:39:01 GMT -5
Unfortunately this is typical of this workers sermons. I never found them too 'uplifting'. Or her general attitude towards the friends - extremely bossy and judgemental (I make that judgement based on conversations!!) makes me sad to think she believes she's doing the right thing :-(
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Post by sharonw on Dec 11, 2012 11:36:45 GMT -5
I look at these statements as similar to what we read here. Another persons spin. To be convinced of God's will according to prayer is the best way to live. The workers that were the most inspiration in our conventions this year were the feeders,not the lawgivers. I feel the same way, Lin! I believe that if we all spoke about Jesus and the need of us all for His blood to wash away OUR sins, then the "law"is stated asa well. She went on to say that us walking the cross way when I understand that hardly any of us will ever "walk the cross" as Jesus did for that would negate His pure sacrifice for the remission of our sins. When I was still going to mtgs. I got the impression that too many people got hung up on the cross for that is about what all I heard esp. in other churches, but I've changed my mind about that for IF we're looking TO THE CROSS for our remission of sins, then it is alright to get hung up on the cross, but not walking the cross like Jesus did....Jesus did that for us and all we need to have of that is His blood to cleanse us. I feel that this is a wrong impression to think that we can be like Jesus....feeling taht being like Jesus is obtainable by our flesh for we will never do it. I feel that desiring to have the spirit of Jesus shining in our attitudes/spirit toward others is priority in this life......
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Post by sharonw on Dec 11, 2012 11:41:08 GMT -5
Unfortunately this is typical of this workers sermons. I never found them too 'uplifting'. Or her general attitude towards the friends - extremely bossy and judgemental (I make that judgement based on conversations!!) makes me sad to think she believes she's doing the right thing :-( I suspect her older companions were "shaping" her so that when she came to the place to be the "responsible companion" she could "shape" her young companions. I think typically many young ladies that have gone into the work do face such "shaping"by their first companions.
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Post by whyisitso on Jan 1, 2013 5:14:15 GMT -5
And of course some people's nature allows them to be 'shaped' in a certain way!
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