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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 24, 2010 17:20:33 GMT -5
Tonya Craft Sues Accusers In $25 Million Federal Lawsuit www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2520287/postsAfter the high mark false accusation cases in the late 80s and early 90s I didn't think that kind of coaching and leading questioning happened anymore.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 24, 2010 17:25:23 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 24, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Very interesting comments on some of those articles. For instance; Submitted by The Master Chief (not verified) on May 12, 2010 - 11:01am. First of all, please when responding make sure you spell the words correctly, and use proper punctuation. Secondly, Some of the stuff with the case was handled improperly, DFACS needs a massive overhaul in the way they handle issues of that nature. Personal vendettas against people should not get in the way of a child's life. Not only are the kids of the accusers victims in this situation because of all the coaxing and what not, but Ms. Craft's kids are also victims. They were taken away from their parent for two years because of some false accusations and basically high school drama. Also, if this were a 26 year old male high school teacher would there be any questioning of possible innocence or would there be a lynch mob asking for his head?
Submitted by Guest (not verified) on May 12, 2010 - 2:02pm. You are right a man would almost certainly have been convicted even the charges be unfounded simply because of the way the legal system and society in general is geared the system is guilty even after proven innocent regardless of what the law says and society is basicly taught to think the worst of people even unknowingly i am glad the jury saw through the persecutions smoke and mirrors
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 26, 2010 9:47:24 GMT -5
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Post by Rob Sargison on May 26, 2010 14:02:23 GMT -5
Interesting Jesse. I suspect if you removed the lawyers, what would be left? Probably nothing. No original false accusation, and no massive counter-claim for damages.
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Post by emy on May 26, 2010 14:32:58 GMT -5
If all the reading in Jesse's references is difficult to manage (it is for me), there was a segment on Today this morning. I have not seen the segment, but got the url in the reading. Thought it might be helpful!
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Post by Christopher J. on May 26, 2010 15:31:32 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing this, Jesse.
I do not mean to minimize the gravity of child sexual abuse at all, since I have seen its devastating effects on a number of people, including some who are very dear to me. At the same time, I've also seen that false accusations of CSA seem to be a favorite tactic used to discredit innocent people against whom someone holds a grudge. A number of years ago I was very aware of two separate cases--one widely publicized and the other not at all--where vengeful people attempted to use such accusations for their own purposes, and it makes me automatically skeptical of some of the claims I hear.
In one case, a well-known public school teacher with an unblemished record was accused by two students of sexual molestation. The case was all over the papers for months, the man was fired, jailed, labeled very publicly as a pervert, before the prepubescent girls finally confessed under pressure that they concocted the story out of anger for bad grades he had given them. I had several friends in the educational system who knew the man well and, along with all his colleagues, were sure of his innocence, but nevertheless his career was ruined, he was bankrupted with legal costs, and eventually left the area to try and rebuild a life elsewhere.
The other case I know of was never brought to public attention of the authorities. To this day I do not think the person accused is even aware that he was accused. A very wise man undertook an immediate, thorough (and yet discreet) investigation, and the eventual outcome was that people with a grudge over an old business deal had started spreading stories about the man in question exposing himself to little girls. Somehow they didn't think their story would get traced to its source, but it did, and it rebounded against them instead of doing damage to the person they hoped to damage.
Unfortunately, present day society seems to be in the mode of believing every accusation and completely forgetting the premise of innocent until proven guilty. While obviously it's not always the case, both adults and children can be devious and manipulative in their efforts to discredit others. Couple that with a public all too eager to believe every sensationalist tale, and I fear it has been the basis for many lives being destroyed. To those who have been the victims of this type of manipulation, it may seem like cold comfort to know that the perpetrators will eventually stand before the Judge of all the earth to receive just recompense for their deeds. I fear those who feed on this type of sensationalism will stand right beside them. In the long run, false accusations may make it harder for genuine victims of CSA to get the justice and healing they need.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2010 18:09:44 GMT -5
Jesse and John, how do you propose to eliminate false accusations?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 26, 2010 18:50:30 GMT -5
Jesse and John, how do you propose to eliminate false accusations? Can't - as long as carnal man is in the picture. Interesting that animals don't make false accusations against each other, only man does that. Probably got something to do with having the knowledge of good and evil and choosing evil.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2010 19:28:30 GMT -5
Jesse and John, how do you propose to eliminate false accusations? Can't - as long as carnal man is in the picture. Interesting that animals don't make false accusations against each other, only man does that. Probably got something to do with having the knowledge of good and evil and choosing evil. I got the impression from the OP that you might have been advocating civil lawsuits against false accusers. Personally, I would like to see criminal sanctions imposed against false accusers of crimes. The order of punishment should be near what the accusation would bring the falsely accused. Will that ever happen? Not likely, the criminal justice system, a huge bureaucracy thrives on accusations of all kinds and they don't want that to dry up. Perhaps civil lawsuits against false accusers would help though.
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Post by Christopher J. on May 26, 2010 22:08:59 GMT -5
Jesse and John, how do you propose to eliminate false accusations? I'm quite sure they can't be eliminated as long as we're dealing with human nature. But I certainly would like to encourage people to extend the same courtesy of "innocent until proven guilty" to the accused that they would like to experience if they were in a similar situation. I don't think anyone is exempt from people with grudges who will stoop to any means to get attention for themselves and revenge on someone else. I don't know a great deal about the FLDS, but that certainly was a case of both law enforcement and public opinion of the whole nation jumping the gun and taking actions that upset a lot of lives, even if the FLDS lifestyle and family structure seem a bit bizarre. And it was generally based on false information provided under false pretenses. I've heard "experts" say repeatedly that children do not lie about sexual abuse. I'm sorry, but experience has taught that they do. No, likely not the majority of them. Likely not in the majority of cases. But enough cases exist where it has happened that it should be considered as a possibility to be investigated. In the two cases I mentioned previously (both in the same city and state and time frame), if the second case had been immediately taken to the authorities, it wouldn't surprise me if another innocent man wouldn't have been hauled off to jail and his reputation tarnished forever before he was finally vindicated. But thanks to a thoughtful, prayerful man who was willing to stick his neck out and do some deep investigating that revealed the deception taking place, at least one person was spared that terrible humiliation. Knowing the accused man fairly well, and the nature of his personality, I have no doubt it would have damaged him for life. Authorities in different areas have widely varying approaches. Some are much too quick to take immediate drastic action that ultimately may do a great deal of harm. We saw a case in one state where a report was made of suspected physical (non-sexual) abuse against one child. All the children were immediately taken away from the parents, who fought for two years before they finally got them back. The outward "signs" of the "abuse" turned out to actually be symptoms of a congenital health problem the child had. But that poor family never did get totally mended from the trauma. Other states where I have been seem to take no action whatsoever even when the abuse/neglect is so prevalent and public that it cannot be missed by anyone who bothers to observe. The pendulum will likely continue to swing from one extreme to the other. We can't likely do much about that, but we can use the brains God gave us to keep from going to extremes ourselves, either in defending the guilty or persecuting the innocent. All I'm saying is take a few deep breaths, use your own eyes and ears and common sense before rushing to any kind of judgment or drastic action about anyone. "For the children" is such a rallying cry in all kinds of arenas, and we've heard it so much on this board as well as from every possible side in the political arena. It generates lots of emotion, and everyone wants to come across as being "pro-children". The sad fact is that many people have agendas that have nothing to do with child welfare, and children are simply a convenient pawn to use against the "other side", whether it be the opposing political party, groups with different belief systems, or simply a personal enemy. Whenever I hear people loudly protesting about something "for the children", I step back and take a look at the agenda they're promoting. On the other hand, it seems to me that those who are doing the most effective work in protecting and caring for children are busy enough doing it that they don't have a lot of time to spend screaming slogans.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2010 22:18:07 GMT -5
I agree John. I haven't heard any experts say that children don't lie, but I've heard that amongst the friends. That came up in a case a few years ago and I challenged that notion only to get a "what planet are you from?" type of reply. From what I understand, when there is one abusive parent where the parents split and the child is given a choice as to which parent to go with, very often they will chose the abusive parent, and sometimes accuse the other parent of abuse. Children are so vulnerable. Anyway, there is a good reason why authorities recommend that children are not interrogated by a non-professional. Professionals are trained to draw out the truth. Perhaps another way to help out false accusations is for information to be developed to help the falsely accused work through it. I'm sure there are right ways and wrong ways to react to a false accusation.
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Post by Christopher J. on May 26, 2010 22:38:48 GMT -5
From what I understand, when there is one abusive parent where the parents split and the child is given a choice as to which parent to go with, very often they will chose the abusive parent, and sometimes accuse the other parent of abuse. Children are so vulnerable. I saw that happen on one occasion a few years ago. It took a number of years for the children to get a more mature view of the situation and be reconciled to the parent they had rejected. In that particular case, the personality of the actual abuser was so strong and dominant that the non-abuser was actually manipulated into believing that the whole situation was their fault, and signing away all their rights.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on May 27, 2010 6:36:30 GMT -5
This could well apply in the Mich. case.
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Post by sharonw on May 27, 2010 6:56:39 GMT -5
I agree somewhat, Lin for even didn't the authorities put into their report about the accusers that they were aided and abetted by some grownups? Perhaps some strong dominant types?
That MI case was so convoluted from the beginning that it may takes years for the whole truth about it to come out.
I'd like to say that the twins' family is all together now from the last word I had and I know some of the family grown-ups are well pleased that that situation is under control now. It was devastating to a whole lot of the extended family of all they went through...and I'm praying that the peace continues for them now.
Also I am of the understanding that all of the falsely accused name's are removed from the legal avenues except perhaps one and maybe that one is by now!
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on May 27, 2010 8:16:36 GMT -5
I agree somewhat, Lin for even didn't the authorities put into their report about the accusers that they were aided and abetted by some grownups? Perhaps some strong dominant types? That MI case was so convoluted from the beginning that it may takes years for the whole truth about it to come out. I'd like to say that the twins' family is all together now from the last word I had and I know some of the family grown-ups are well pleased that that situation is under control now. It was devastating to a whole lot of the extended family of all they went through...and I'm praying that the peace continues for them now. Also I am of the understanding that all of the falsely accused name's are removed from the legal avenues except perhaps one and maybe that one is by now! perhaps the family is all happy and peaceful.What about the accused? Just removing their names isn't enough.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 27, 2010 10:35:05 GMT -5
I haven't heard any experts say that children don't lie, but I've heard that amongst the friends. That came up in a case a few years ago and I challenged that notion only to get a "what planet are you from?" type of reply. clearday, read over the references 2 and 3, those are outlines of what Dr. Ann Hazzard and Dr. Nancy Aldridge testified in this case. Both said children can believe and say things that aren't true, even about abuse. The "McMartin, Wenahatchee" and other cases Dr. Aldridge refers to are the ones from 15-20 years ago that showed children will state things that are not true under leading questioning. If you notice in reference 2 Dr. Aldridge is not on a crusade against children, she's testified for prosecution in all but 15 of 200 cases. -> Reference 4 (very good outline how false accusation/wrongful conviction happens) What it comes down to more than the actions of children is the dishonest actions of so called "adults" involved. "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies..." In order for there to be less false accusation, or any other evil, people need to have a change of heart, more laws will not do it.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2010 11:13:11 GMT -5
I haven't heard any experts say that children don't lie, but I've heard that amongst the friends. That came up in a case a few years ago and I challenged that notion only to get a "what planet are you from?" type of reply. clearday, read over the references 2 and 3, those are outlines of what Dr. Ann Hazzard and Dr. Nancy Aldridge testified in this case. Both said children can believe and say things that aren't true, even about abuse. The "McMartin, Wenahatchee" and other cases Dr. Aldridge refers to are the ones from 15-20 years ago that showed children will state things that are not true under leading questioning. If you notice in reference 2 Dr. Aldridge is not on a crusade against children, she's testified for prosecution in all but 15 of 200 cases. -> Reference 4 (very good outline how false accusation/wrongful conviction happens) What it comes down to more than the actions of children is the dishonest actions of so called "adults" involved. "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies..." In order for there to be less false accusation, or any other evil, people need to have a change of heart, more laws will not do it. You're preaching to the converted there Jesse. It's not just corrupt investigators who can steer children wrongly, but children will lie for self preservation (just like a normally honest adult). They will lie about real abusers to protect themselves from even worse abuse promised by the abuser.
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Post by sharonw on May 27, 2010 18:33:14 GMT -5
I agree somewhat, Lin for even didn't the authorities put into their report about the accusers that they were aided and abetted by some grownups? Perhaps some strong dominant types? That MI case was so convoluted from the beginning that it may takes years for the whole truth about it to come out. I'd like to say that the twins' family is all together now from the last word I had and I know some of the family grown-ups are well pleased that that situation is under control now. It was devastating to a whole lot of the extended family of all they went through...and I'm praying that the peace continues for them now. Also I am of the understanding that all of the falsely accused name's are removed from the legal avenues except perhaps one and maybe that one is by now! perhaps the family is all happy and peaceful.What about the accused? Just removing their names isn't enough. Lin, it is true one cannot change what happened other then that when the falsely accused names are removed from legal avenues then they should never be pinned automatically with any suspected case of CSA, they should appear as any other person that's never been accused before and that is legal avenues of course...personal avenues? That will be determined as to what kind of adverse reactions came up against the falsely accused before their names are cleared...some cases might go for settlements in case of financial difficulites, i.e. job loss or demotions...it will be an individual case by case how things smooth out for each one. I suspect "familial" troubles would have been the primary difficulties for the falsely accused. It is bad that they were falsely accused, that their names were used to bring out those who had and were guilty of such actions!
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